携程CEO孙洁：从个人旅程到全球旅游巨头的领导力与创新

hi everyone I'm Nicola tangan the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign wealth fund and today in the podcast we have James Su the CEO of trip.com warm welcome thank you so much for having me now um I think this is the first podcast you ever done that's right that is so so much fun now you built um trip.com into one of the world largest travel companies um we are the lucky owner or more than 2% of the company or roughly $700 million so you grew up in Shanghai studied in the US so what does travel mean to you

today in the podcast we have James Su the CEO of trip.com warm welcome thank you so much for having me now um I think this is the first podcast you ever done that's right that is so so much fun now

warm welcome thank you so much for having me now

thank you so much for having me now

um I think this is the first podcast you ever done

that's right that is so so much fun now

you built um trip.com into one of the world largest travel companies

um we are the lucky owner or more than 2% of the company or roughly $700 million

so you grew up in Shanghai studied in the US so what does travel mean to you

travel means quite a lot to me uh maybe I can start with my journey uh on travel

I was born in Shanghai and went to pcking University law school

and during my second year one of the professors from the USA wanted to come and select one students to go to study in the USA

and I was very blessed for the opportunity to go to study in the USA

what did it pick you think

because I'm always very curious uh and ask questions

uh when my professors was presenting so

when I arrived in the USA China just opened the door it's a was only early stage of the open door policy

uh my parents were both Engineers they made decent living uh to support my brother and myself

but if you convert their 200 R&B into USD is $20 per month so

so I couldn't ask for money to support myself

instead I worked two jobs one in as a librarian uh the other one is as a bus girl to clean up dishes making $3 per hour uh to support myself

but after I paid my tuition I have no money for room and boarding

but my professor's family were very kind to me they took me in and treated me as their own child

so I was very grateful and I told them in China the confusion teaching is that when kids are young parents take good care of their children but when parents get older good children will always take care of their parents

so I told them when I'm able to I would like to take good care of you

and they said oh honey you don't need to take care of us but instead if you can help the international students in the same way as we do for you will be very happy

wow so I what you've done yeah

and I was very touched although I was peniles at that time but I always had a dream that someday if I'm able to I would like to establish a scholarship name after my professor

and I was very glad in 2016 I went back to my university and established a scholarship to name after the professors who helped me so much

and we named our old daughter uh after my professor's wife because she is just like a mother to me

and we celebrated her 93's birthday uh last year

moving on to trip.com how did you end up there and how did you end up at the top

uh in 205 our board was looking for a CFO uh and I was very blessed for the opportunity to become the first female CFO uh in a China Market

when I made the decision I asked myself three questions

first of all what do you like to spend time uh in Asia

uh at that time Asia is growing very fast uh so I thought that's a good market

and with my bilingual Background by culture background it's good to be a good bridge between Asia with the rest of the world

the second question I ask myself is that if you want to be in Asia what industry do you want to be in

and I think I thought the travel industry really brings people together

and the third question I ask is that if you want to be in Asia in the travel industry which company has the best opportunity to be successful

and after I talk to our board I believe our team are very well equipped uh to take the leadership for the trouble industry

why uh why is trip.com so successful

internally we have a for formula which we called 55443

three means you are at the market level one and two means you're below the market level four is above Market level but the barrier of entries is relatively lower and five is more above uh way above the market

uh so the second player without 5 to 10 years cannot catch up with you

so the two elements we assign value five is uh branding and service

and why that's important

because if you build a service and branding just like Singapore Airlines or four seasons people will trust you and uh travel with you and it's very difficult to catch up with you

is that your kind of goal when you think about your brand and the perception are those two Brands something you aspired to be for season 7 sing Airlines

for season 7 sing Airlines

yes in travel industry these are very why

and why those two brands M

because in when you bought Singapore Airline their price is not the lowest it's even you charge a premium but when you when they serve you there are lots of signs behind it yeah

for example uh when they ask you a question St ask you a question the eye to ey context is uh uh very good

and also when they put down a cup for example instead of put it down walk away they put it down they will move it the little detail behind the scene make customer to connect with your team

the little detail behind the scene make customer to connect with your team

so I studied and learned a lot from these global leaders

uh so in trip.com when you call our call center globally 7 Days times 24 hours a life person will answer the phone within 30 seconds in your native language

when there is an issue within 2 minutes our team will find a solution for you

and the very next day if our customers would like to come back to their home country we'll make priority around arrangement for them

so that's why customer trust us when they travel with us

and with that brand preco the most expensive tool we sold cost about 200,000 USD per person per trip 80 Days around the world W

and guess how long did it take us to sell these packages not long take a guess how long

uh 5 hours

very good guess 17 seconds

wow

yeah the reason we can do that is because of the trust in our brand

so tell us give us a feel for the the size of the company

so how how do you measure size in your business

so in terms of gmv total proceeds where about so that's the total sales of your products

correct correct

the total proceeds will bring to Airlines to Hotel Partners rental C Business local tour operators attractions that total is about 60 billion USD

in terms of our Revenue our commission is about 6 billion USD in 2023 and bottom line is 2 billion Us

and how how exactly do you make money

we charge a commission uh so when we sell a hotel rooms uh Hotel will pay us a commission as a sales channel

so when we sell a hotel rooms uh Hotel will pay us a commission as a sales channel

so we talked about the two elements with value five the other two elements we value four is technology and products

uh we have about 10,000 Engineers globally to invest heavily to innovate our product and take care of our customers

but once the product is released uh people can copy it so the barrier of enturies is not as high as service and branding but still it's very important

the last elements uh is uh pricing uh we value it at three at the market level

uh as the largest player we can always is ask for a very good price for our customers but we never brand ourself as the lowest price leader in the market

so when you ask why trip.com you know become a very uh leading player in the travel industry because of our focus in service and branding product and technology and also parity in pricing

so when you grow how what are the growth factors um would you have

I mean do do you cover now all destinations all Airlines all hotels

yes okay yes

so our uh growth strategy is to provide a One-Stop shopping platform

so for example when a customer fly from Shanghai to Oso if he or she is booking a business class or first class tickets we'll recommend a five-star hotel to to him uh intern InterContinental hotel for example

and then we'll calculate the distance between the oso airport to his hotel and send a car to them

and when the customer check in we recommend a very nice restaurants for them

and after they check in we also say oh by the way we have a toour package for you if you would like to uh travel on the weekend after a business meeting

so one stop solution make the travel very pleasant for our customers

how uh does your technology compare with competition

you mentioned that you would give four but um what type of uh advantages do you have on your technology side

our technology uh we invest heavily every year uh we have about 10,000 Engineers

uh we use AI to improve our efficiency

uh the AI is used for four areas

the first one is the user interface

uh in the past we need to do search for example I'm coming to Oso with two kids I would like to have a hotel with uh two beds with a swimming pool and then the system will pop up with a couple of selections

right now our trip Genie is very Advanced you can just talk to the system and it will pop up automatically the selections for our customers

the second usage of AI is the efficiency for our engineering team

using co-pilot we'll be able to cut the coding time anywhere between 15% to 30% that's a huge lift of our uh technology team

the third one is customer service

uh we're able to identify the customer needs within very short time and give them the best selection either automatically or if necessary uh with a live person

and the last one is the content generation

with the technology in video uh and picture we're able to generate very good uh content uh using technology

so we invest heavily to stay ahead

how will um this look differently in 10 years time

what is what is the future for instance of customer service

in the future uh if you look at the past 10 years our grow trajectory is 20 to 30% every year ker but our head count in the call center is very flat

the reason we can do it is because of our investment on the backand to support our customers

so in the future I think a human intervention is only necessary when there is unexpected events happened

hopefully standard transaction can all be handled very smoothly through technology

now um customer experience um I think it's so interesting

and uh there is this book called unreasonable Hospitality about uh you know this famous uh New York restaurant

um now what is the best experience you ever had

the best experience I had was uh uh this past Chinese New Year our family went to the South Pole and we call it white desert

because without the support uh of uh the aircrafts or this curation is unreachable by human

uh so that tells me how important and excellent service is

I think the best I had was in a real KH in Kyoto in Japan

oh lovely yeah Japan is so famous for the excellent Services absolutely

now how do you make sure that um that this service mentality is kind of going through the whole company everybody uh how do you make sure it doesn't slip

our young employee when they come to our office uh they most of them are single child because China had this one child policy for a long time

they were the center of attention in their family

but when they come to our office we train them to treat our customer as their family

so the slogan is let our customer hear your smile

uh so they are trained to take very good care of our customers

do you think it's more difficult to get young people now to have that attitude

different years have different challenges

when we first established the company uh young people who are from the remote here come here they want to money make money and send it to their family

so if you give them enough uh bonuses young people are very very willing uh to work overtime work on the weekend or work on the evening shift

now with the living standard is improving money is not the incentive they're looking for

instead the career pass is something we can really uh give our young employees to grow

so our young employees uh when they start with us if they work well some of them become Buc leading a big operation in our company

so I always feel very proud of their achievements within our company

how would you characterize your leadership style

I'm a a very few female leaders in the high-tech industry

and I think women have lots of good traits which we can bring to our team

for example uh we are very willing to make personal sacrifice for the best interest of our company

uh we're very willing to put ourself in other people's shoes

so when we negotiate a deal we very quick can reach a win-win uh agreement

we're very good with communication and team building

so I really want to uh make sure we pave the way for our future uh female leaders so that they can take on more responsibility

now there's a lot of things to drill down on here but um let's start with the negotiations

you think women are better at reaching win-win how come

I think a a lot of time uh instead of fighting my way or your way with the big eagle uh during the negotiation team

when I went to a negotiation conference room normally I just bring our legal council and our finance team three of us happens to be uh ladies

uh the other side are full of uh male negotiators with suits very serious

so the way we break the deal is to really understand what they're looking for what is the ve very important interest from the other side and how we can meet in the middle

so normally the negotiation for for us is to find a common interest

are we going to achieve 1+ 1 equals to five

it is if it is then the partnership makes sense

if 1+ 1 equals two we are better to stay independent

so very quickly I think we are able to find our shared interest and maximize our shared interest through our discussion and negotiation

you have been very successful in in getting um women at the top of your company right

so it's half the leader group I think it's 40% at mid level um how have you done that

how have you done that

yeah we have done quite a lot uh to empower woman's leadership

for example when a woman is pregnant we offer free taxi to bring them to work and take them home

when our employees give birth to a baby we give 50,000 on the baby's birthday consecutively for 5 years

and we commit 1 billion uh fund for this initiatives

and I also noticed a lot of high talented womens or after they get their master's degrees or phds some of them are 27 or 28 years old

but if you ask the doctors they will classify in a pregnancy after 35 years old as highrisk pregnancy

so we only giving women 7 to 8 years to build a career build a family have children compared to our male co-workers they have much longer uh career path to build up to that Milestone

so we always thought how we can support women better

uh so we come up with a policy that if our woman employee would like to use Hightech techology to have their act Frozen we will pay for it

and that is very Progressive we the first uh high-tech company who have done it

uh so with that consulted efforts uh we have achieved very good results

as you said more than 50% of the workforce are women more than 40% of the uh middle managers are woman and more than onethird of the executives are women

and I still think we can do better in the future

so you mentioned um also you you thought women were more empathetic uh and uh better able to see other people's uh you know situation

so how would I experience life differently uh as a normal employee in in you know trip.com relative to your competitors

so now I come I come to work right so I work I work for you yeah how how would your style um make me feel how many it make me work yeah

so uh for me uh our company really support our employees for 2 hours 2 days and two years

2 hours I think it's very important to give your children your family uninterrupted high quality 2 hours to have dinner with them to help them with their homework

so when I arrange my day when I'm not troubling I go to the office very early between 6:00 to 7:00 I'm in the office I get all the mails done uh all my my uh readings

then starting from 8:00 my meeting starts and it's very tight

when it's 6 to 8:00 I pick pack up all my uh work paper and bring home I have dinner with my family help them with their homework when they were young

but when the kids go to bed at about 9:00 us Market opens Europe is doing session so all my overseas call is done when my children are sleeping

I work quite long hours but it give me peace in mind knowing every day when I'm home I give them undisrupted two hours uh to help them

when they grow up even today now they are in college they're very appreciative of my commitment

so 9:00 you start to work again and you work until when

ah I work until midnight sometimes if there is a deal we work overnight

uh but uh I think being a CEO it can take you 24 hours non-stop being a full-time mother it can also take you 24 hours nonstop

but if you want to achieve both I need to invest twice as much as if you choose to do only one thing

so that's the two hours per day

and if I'm traveling I always try to be home and our employees to to be home to spend the weekends two days with our family

and then two years uh for women who are pregnant it's very important to support them during the year when they are pregnant and also during the first year when they breastfeeding the baby

if you support them during these two critical years I think there is lots of loyalty from our women uh workers and leaders and we're able to retain talents

and talking about leadership um now you've been praised for your crisis management skills right

you um ran the company through covid perhaps the most challenging time for a travel company ever right it is

it is

what's the key to uh managing a company in time of Crisis

so our philosophy is customer first P the second and trip.com the third

and if you remember on the Chinese New Year's Eve in 20120 we lock down the border to prevent the disease from spreading

and Chinese New Year is always the high high season for travel millions of customers already paid uh their package uh packages uh so they demand a refund

but at that time the money already is given uh to the Airlines and hotels so we need to make a very quick decision what do we do

customers are innocent they pay the money now they cannot travel but we don't have money we already give it uh to the Airlines and hotels so

immediately within five minutes after our executive's decision we made a decision we need to take the leadership provide the for refund to the customer

so cumulatively we borrowed 20 billion to advance our refund to the customer

now business is back customer really trust us they come back to us

the second thing is uh partner the second

and during crisis we noticed our small and mediumsized business partners were very short of cash

so we established a 2 billion partnership fund to help them with cash flow now

businesses back all the partners who would like to team up with us provide the best products to our customers

and the third thing is trip.com the third

so at that moment our Revenue dropped down to zero yet we have 35,000 employees to feed every employee has a family behind them

so we thought about what we can do

so our chairman and I volunteered to our board we will take zero salary until industry recovered

and our VP immediately echoed with us they said we'll take 50% salary cut

and our employees also echoed with us by telling us we will work four days and take one day off or work three days take three day uh take two days off

in reality everyone was very busy taking care of our customers we work overtime

but that's the way we tell our board and our shareholder we're here together we'll weather the storm together

so sure enough after three very difficult years we come back industry is re recovery uh we are able to take our customers to travel around the world again

well it's um it's uh a very um strong Testament to your corpor culture

now how would you define the corpor culture

our corporate control is uh uh customer first

uh we need to have have the big company dis discipline and a focus but we also need to have a startup company's passion and Innovation

and how do you create that

so inside our company uh we have baby tiger program

so for example uh small business uh rental car business uh when they started the business it was very small

uh we give them a CEO CFO and a CTO they can run as a very small startup company

we give them the fun funds we take care of all the uh corporate F factions for example marketing legal uh contract negotiation

we have a big uh Team to support them

for them they just need to make sure this product is fine tuned very well

uh so that enable us to have the ability to launch 70 product simultaneously

um but meanwhile our commitment to the customer is the same

it's the big com uh uh the big bu like hotel and flight have very matured processes for quality control

but just because you're a small business unit you also need to adhere to our principal to put our customer uh in the very center uh position

now how do you screen for those type of people

how do you what do you look for when you hire

so so now you're going to so now applying for a job and I had now have interview with you know the big boss just what kind of questions do you ask me

we look at uh the employees for four very important criterias

uh the first one is integrity

I think of Integrity enable us to have a very open dialogue very transparent and we can work together very well

the second one is hardworking because GDP is created by people uh so hardworking spirit is very important

the third one is curiosity always ask good questions being very very curious understanding the new trends what our new customers is interested in that enable us to explore new opportunities

and the last one is optimistic uh because it as a company you will always have ups and downs

how do you screen for optimistic spirit

I ask them tell me the the most difficult situation you have how did you handle it

that will give me a good sense as to is this employee uh on a positive side when he or she is facing the challenges

right it's interesting we did a podcast with Magnus Carlson the world famous chess player and uh he said that the optimistic chess players did better

yeah more aggressive

and and in the investment Market uh uh you know optimistic investors make more money yeah

so what's the most difficult thing you've been through and how did you handle it

I think Co is the most difficult thing for the industry uh for for the whole world

uh I think we handled it uh very calm

uh we also built a very uh strong team uh during covid

instead of uh letting people go uh we really focused on how we can run a very lean operation

and we were very Innovative even during covid when the hotel are closed down attractions closed down

our chairman lead the efforts to dress up in different costumes uh we bring limit uh traffics uh to the hotel resorts upsale for their not only room nights but also meals

um because during those time any cash flow to our hotel Partners is very precious

so Innovation and a commitment for our industry uh is very important

how transparent are you in your company how do you share information

we're very transparent

uh we our philosophy is we need to scientifically manage our company so number speaking uh we use number uh for all the analysis

so a company a bu if they tell me oh the opportunity is great that doesn't get you anywhere you need to show me the number

right I've listened to some of your speeches at some of these industry Gatherings and you you talk about numbers all the time

because I have a finance background uh so I always focus on numbers

so if you show me a very high I of course the uh resources is strongly behind you

but but if the II doesn't make any sense no matter how good the story you're telling the team return on investment yes yeah

what are the numbers you look at every day

I look at uh the industry growth

and then I also look at the travel industry normally travel industry can be a couple of percentage above GDP growth so somewhere around 8 to 10%

and then our team needs to execute very well to grow faster the lead lead the Industry Recovery so we probably will Target at somewhere between 15 to 20% ker going forward

and every day you come to work what are the numbers you look at

I look at uh the gross proceeds we bring to our business partners that's the most important items I look at

moving on to the travel industry just now what are the trends you're seeing

the new trend I classify them as three e

the first one is event driven so young people are very interested in concerts uh music festivals sports events so events driven uh Travelers is traveling is very popular right now among our young traveler

Taylor Swift Taylor Swift is a phenomenal and a lot more uh music uh uh artists

the second one is uh a more experiential uh travel so Wellness travel uh ski in the winter diving in the summer hiking in the spring becomes also very important

we need to support our customers for these type of uh tools

the third one is eco-friendliness travel

our young people really focus a lot on that so we offer electronic vehicle for rental cars we encourage our hotel Partners to install a solar panel to reduce emission

and in terms of Chinese travel how is that developing just now

oh very well

uh so we look at both the man side and supply side

on the demand side the search volume for overseas alang travel far exceeded 209 level so the demand is there the buying power is there

uh I was with the executive in the Dubai airport uh they are telling me that the customers buying power from trip.com is two to three times as high as the average buyers uh in their airport

so they love to bring Chinese customers to the aut it help them with their sales volume

however on the supply side we still have two major bottleneck

the first one is the visa application

uh some countries give three Visa uh like AB uh UAE Saudi Arabia Qatar Singapore uh Malaysia Thailand they're doing very well

but some other countries still have a long pent demand such as uh Germany has a long waiting list for six months um

and some other countries Switzerland does very well within s days you can get the visa if you use expedited Services you can get the visa within the same day

so why does Germany have such a long waiting list um

you have thought they wanted to have tourists right

yeah I think every country wants to you know attract uh Travelers

but I think probably the backlog uh through the pandemic time is very high and also they might are looking for uh new working uh uh Power uh to process these back

how does No Way St up here

no way is in in between right

yeah but it's a beautiful country

and very this is the first country I visited after Co it's beautiful

but how so how long time did you take you to get a visa to come here

uh about one month

also one month

now Mass tourism there's been um a bit of a backlash in many parts of the world just because there are too many tourists right in places like Venice and so on and they're trying to reduce it

so what what is your view on that

yeah I think uh for very top travel destinations uh we really need to uh provide a good alternative for travelers

uh if they have uh the buying power is good for the local economy

when we look at the global GDP travel can provide about 10% plus GDP contribution to the global economy and provide more than 10% of the job opportunity

so it's very good for local economy

but we need to provide uh a good uh uh content for the longtail products

for example Italy it's beautiful Rome and Florence is beautiful but so does uh lots of remote areas which is very beautiful as well

we need to do a very good job so that's why our content team provides a very good alternative so customers can see not only Rome and Florence they will see sento they will see simani all these beautiful places

the world is so big there are so many places you can see

just moving on to some more um personal questions

um you uh run half marathons that's right

I R uh preco I run one or two full Marathon

uh on the weekend I try to run a half marathon like every weekend yeah try to

wow if I'm not and you came here and you came here on Crites because you uh you've been having a skiing accident as well right

that's right

so my family in the winter I enjoy skiing in a summer we like to take our children to dive and in Spring and the fall we do a lot of hiking

what is your absolute most favorite place to travel

I think Africa Safari is my favorite

right and what is it with African safari which close to Nature

which close to Nature

uh if you believe in the origin uh theories of origin uh humans uh moved from Africa to the rest of the world

so when we go back to Africa uh we we feel we're going back home M

how do you relax

um I do lots of exercise I have lots of friends uh I have spent a quality time with my families and I read a lot

what do you read

when I was young I enjoy toy stor three masterpieces and one piece is my favorite

uh now I read uh Henry Kissinger's uh leadership um

and I also read a book to help uh Health uh for example outlive uh it's a very good book

uh and also antifragile it's good for uh personal uh health and also very good for the health of our company and a community

are you going to write a book

yes when I have more time

and what what will you write about

I want to write what I have experienced

I think our generation is very blessed

uh my grandmother uh she was very talented but she was taught to stay at home to take care of their children

and my mother was very talented so they were the generation uh taught uh who were taught woman can hold half of the sky so she became a chemistry engineer but she could only be a individual contributor

and in my generation I always feel I'm very blessed for the opportunity we can can go to work we can lead a big team

but still there are so many things that we can do more

if you look at the global uh Prime Ministers and presidents fewer than 10% of them are represented by woman

and I always imagine if we can have 50% of the prime ministers and president represents by woman will we be able to find a better Sol solution a peaceful solution for many of the issues and many of the conflicts

well we have a better world because of the representation by half of our population

how many women how many mother would like to send their sons to fight a war to sacrifice their sons um

so I think there are much more we can do and I want to contribute uh my uh efforts to this course

well I think that's a fantastic place to end

so a world with more female leaders will be a better world

thank you very much for your support

thank you so much