民主党外交政策分歧

[Interviewer]: I think we may be in a moment of foreignpolicy rupture in the Democratic Party.It reminds me of years ago when the Iraqwar remade the Democratic Party. TheIraq War, which is why Barack Obama beatHillary Clinton in the 2008 primary,changing the course of Americanpolitics. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: Because I will offer a clear contrast assomebody who never supported this war,thought it was a bad idea. I don't wantto just end the war, but I want to endthe mindset that got us into war in thefirst place. That's the kind ofleadership I'm going to promote (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: right now. Israel and Gaza feel to melike they are becoming the center of asimilar rupture. The thing that startedhere for me was a few weeks ago BrianShots who is a Democratic senator fromHawaii. He's often talked of as maybethe next Senate Democratic leader afterChuck Schumer. So a guy with anincredible sense of the pulse of theparty. He tweeted, "I'm not intoblacklisting anyone from future work intheir area of expertise, but I do thinkit's fair to want a whole new crop, awhole new crop of foreign policystaffers in the next Democraticadministration. It's not like the same120 people are the only people who knowanything." Then Senator Chris VanHolland, again very well respected inthe party, very much someone in itsmainstream, he wrote an opinion piecefor the Times, laying out how differenthe thinks the Democratic Party's policyon Israel needs to be, how badly hethinks the Biden administration's policyfailed. And then he went on to say,"Primary voters won't trust anyDemocratic presidential candidate whodoes not have a record of moral andstrategic clarity on these issues,especially if, as a legislator, he orshe voted to send Mr. Netanyahu bombs,even as his government imposed a totalblockade on Gaza. Nor will they supporta candidate who plans to reinlist thesenior Democratic decision makers whowhitewash the truth during the Bidenadministration and refuse to acknowledgetheir complicity.Complicity is a strong word in a interndemocratic fight here. Then we've seen anumber of Democratic primaries beginningto split over Gaza. It has become anessential issue in the MichiganDemocratic Senate primary where AbdulElsad leads in many of the new polls. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: You're watching Democrats bend overbackwards in the most pretzel-like wayto justify the war. They're like, "Thisis an illegal war, but if they asked me,I'd fund it." If you don't have thecourage to call out the moralabomination of a genocide, then what doyou have the courage to call out in thefirst place? This is a moral roarshocktest for our party. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: It was very present in the New JerseyHouse primary that Adam Hami, a doctorwho had treated the injured in Gaza,just won. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: I was running on something very simpleis that we should be spending on healthccare, not bombs. we should be spendingon our communities here, you know, inNew Jersey, in America, uh, and notfunding bombs overseas for, you know,atrocities and genocide. We should notbe funding the endless wars that we'reseeing. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: It's been at the center of the Houseprimary in my district in New York,where Brad Lander is running against theincumbent, Dan Goldman. And much ofLander's attack is centered on Goldman'ssupport for Israel. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: Representative Goldman does not viewwhat's happening there as a genocide.I've been fighting against Israel'soccupation of the West Bank and Gaza uhsince 1990. I've never heard him say theword occupation in that context. (此处为机机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: Lander 2 is well ahead in recent polls.Into all of this comes Trump's war inIran, a war he has fought alongsideIsrael and just the general failure ofhis tariff and foreign policy. And soit's made this moment a moment whensomething new really could emerge. TheDemocratic Party is not going to go backto Bidenism. It is not going to try toreplicate Trumpism. So what wouldsomething different actually look likebeyond just Gaza though? Of course,including Gaza, what would it dodifferently? Matt Dus is the executivevice president at the Center forInternational Policy. He's worked at theCarnegie Endowment for InternationalPeace and the Center for AmericanProgress. He served as Senator BernieSanders foreign policy adviser and he'sadvised Representative AlexandriaCosiocortez. thus is really at thecenter of foreign policy thinking amongthe elected left. I want to have man toexplore a question that I think mightcome to define the 2028 primary. Whatwould a left foreign policy look like?What would it actually try to do in theworld? As always, my email escline showntimes.com. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: Matt Dus, welcome to the show. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: Thank you. So, you wrote a piece in theNation recently saying that Democratscan't avoid a reckoning on Gaza. What isthat reckoning? (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: Well, I think first it involvesunderstanding that um we're not going tosidestep Gaza as an issue as as theparty moves forward. Um I do think theGaza debate, the Gaza debacle, the Gazagenocide um stands for a lot that iswrong with our politics. And I think ifDemocrats are going to be able to offera compelling alternative vision of howthey're going to govern, they reallyneed to have a discussion, have adebate, have a reckoning um with whatthe Biden administration did, not justwith the policy, but with the thecampaign of what I think was clearlydisinformation that accompanied thatpolicy. And that's going to involve somevery tough conversations. that's goingto be putting um you know a spotlight onsome key officials who served in theBiden administration um and some of whomprobably hope to serve again andprobably should not get to. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: What do you mean by a campaign ofdisinformation? (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: I mean I'm looking at you know the waythat the Biden administration talked umthe White House, you know, the the StateDepartment, you had this constant umrefrain of, oh, we're not seeing that.We've not made that assessment. We havenot made an assessment or drawn theconclusion that they are in violation ofinternational humanitarian law when itcomes to the provision of humanitarianassistance into Gaza. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: Given the nature of Hamas's track recordof colllocating itself with civilians,using civilians as human shields, uhwe're unable to make a conclusive uhdetermination uh as it relates toviolations of international humanitarianlaw. We at this time have not made anassessment that they're that theIsraelis are in violation of US law. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: And it was clear that they were choosingnot to see things that were happening.Everyone else in the world could seethese things were happening.Palestinians themselves were reportingthese things were happening. Israeli andPalestinian human rights groups isinternational NOS's reporting that thesethings were happening. This is one ofthe things that I really I I thinkunderlines this disconnect here is theBiden administration made an assessmentwithin a month of the Russian invasionof Ukraine in February 2022. Within amonth, uh, Secretary of State Blinkencame out and made an assessment thatRussia is committing war crimes. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: Yesterday, President Biden said that inhis opinion, war crimes have beencommitted in Ukraine.Personally, I agree. The idea that theycould not make a similar assessment of amilitary into whose operations theUnited States has vastly more visibilityI think is just just it's just notcredible. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: See you know many of the people in the Badministration. You've talked to them. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: What do you think happened? And and whenI ask I mean it in a very specific way.What do you think were the set ofcommitments or values because thesepeople see themselves as having deepcommitments and deep values (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: that in your view went wrong and led tothe policy that we had? Yeah, I mean Ithink first this really does come downto Joe Biden, not only Joe Biden. Um butJoe Biden I think had a very particularconception um both of how US policytoward the Middle East, how US policytoward Israel should work and he had a avery serious confidence um uh I wouldsay misplaced but he had greatconfidence in his own judgment about howto use US foreign policy. Um he had aview of the US-Israel relationship whichhe he said many times there should be nodaylight. If there were differences inopinion, differences in policy thoseshould be expressed privately whereas inpublic uh the United States shouldremain essentially in lock step withwhatever the Israeli government wasdoing. And I think he has had that viewfor a very long time. Um his his viewwas okay we're you know we're going toexpress some differences with whatIsrael is doing here and there but we'renot really going to put any realpressure on them to change policy. Youknow, as a former staffer um myself, Iknow that once the boss has kind of laiddown the parameters um of where he orshe is willing to go and not go, I thinkstaffers start to tend to shape, youknow, you stop arguing and you say,"Okay, this is these these are theguardrails um and you start to shapepolicy within those guardrails." AndBiden made clear repeatedly and he madeclear actually during the 2020 primaryuh when Senator Sanders kicked off adebate about conditioning military aiduh to Israel. I mean Biden at the timecalled that a preposterous idea. Therewas maybe there was that one time whenhe withheld one shipment of uh 2,000lbbombs, but other than that there reallyno consequences for what the entireworld could see was an ongoing set ofatrocities. I have a question about thisthat that maybe you know the answer tobecause it's always confused me. I thinkit's fair to say at this point for theleft Gaza exists as a if not the centralfailure of the Biden administration. AndI agree with you that much of that comesdown to Joe Biden himself. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Interviewer]: When Biden was being pushed to stepdown, (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)

[Matt Dus]: the some of the strongest peoplefighting that effort, trying to keepBiden in place were Bernie Sanders andAOC. (此处为机翻占位，原文意思见折叠内容)