Canada was once known as a peacekeeping nation, but that reputation has faded.

In the age of Trump's America, what part should we play?

I asked former Canadian ambassador to the UN, Luis Blle, and journalist Steven Marsh, host of the podcast Gloves Off.

[Music]

Madame Vle, Stephen, thank you so much for joining us on the program. Madam, I'm going to come to you first. How is Canada perceived by other nations right now?

Well, I mean, it's it's it's not universal, right?

Obviously, there are some countries, but that will have different opinions, but I think I travel quite a bit internationally and at the moment there's a little bit of a question mark that's being raised.

Um, you know, when I'm in Mexico, for example, I hear, well, uh, how are things going over there?

I mean so I think around the world at the moment it has been noticed that uh this relationship that we used to uh benefit from with our our closest ally and and neighbor the United States of America has really uh fallen off a cliff.

I mean I think the level of which we are now in an uncomfortable position in our relationship I think is something that is definitely uh seen and it's not brand new.

I think you know we have disagreed in the past on a lot of international issues but this kind of level I think and and the nature of it like the ad for example that is really um that is really making the rounds around the world.

So we have to wait and see what that means.

Canada benefited internationally from our closeness to the Americans.

Can we stand on our own?

Uh are we an alternative to the Americans for the world?

I I'm unconvinced of that.

But Stephen might have a different different opinion.

Well, Stephen, um, Canada has long been considered a middle power even with our elbows up sort of mantra.

Uh, I am curious, is that still the case?

Are we still a a middle power in this?

Well, I think we're sort of exiting the world where there are such things as middle powers.

I mean, even even the concept of a middle power impo implies a multilateral world order that simply has stopped existing.

um you know as to the question of whether Canada has to can stand by itself. I mean simple answer is it's going to have to um because you know whatever our actions um the actions of America are the the actions of a power hostile to us and a power that is certainly no longer reliable either as an ally or a trading partner.

because you know whatever our actions um the actions of America are the the actions of a power hostile to us and a power that is certainly no longer reliable either as an ally or a trading partner.

So you know I don't think we're in a situation that we have control over and I don't think we're in a situation where we should judge our politicians as if they had control over it.

We're just reacting to the breakdown of the United States as a world as a world power and ultimately as a nation and and and surviving that collapse, that American collapse is the task of the next generation of Canadians.

All right. Madame Bl had mentioned the ad.

This is an ad that was pulled.

President Trump had called off all trade talks because of this ad that was placed by the Ontario government.

Let's have a watch of the clip here.

When someone says, "Let's impose tariffs on foreign imports," it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs.

Throughout the world, there's a growing realization that the way to prosperity for all nations is rejecting protectionist legislation and promoting fair and free competition.

America's jobs and growth are at stake.

I am sure both of you have probably watched that ad a few times.

So, I'm going to ask madam, was that the right play?

No, I I don't think it was at all.

And for a couple of reasons.

Uh, first of all, I I mean, using a a previous president's words against a current president and a kind of relationship that we're in right now, I think is was extremely dangerous.

It was very imprudent and I don't think we'd like it if it was done to us.

Uh and so I think that was uh point number one.

Point number two is one ad is not going to change even if it is being played in red states is not going to change the reality.

Uh there's been a debate going on about trade and tariffs. United States has been raging.

It does not need this ad.

And this ad is not going to change hearts and minds to the degree that it would need to in order to really uh outweigh the risk.

and the risk have been clear and uh and I think I I we feel comfortable as Canadians to do that.

Uh and we go on their airwaves and we take every opportunity we have to try to uh give them our opinion and I think that's fine to give them our opinion.

But I think we should be very careful to step into the political fray in the United States at a time where there is quite a bit of of uh of division and not be caught because we're going to get caught in the middle.

And that's exactly what happened.

All right, Stephen, uh, your thoughts on the ad and a response to Madame Blé?

Well, there's no real way to tell if it was a good play or a right play because you're dealing with a psychopath.

Like how you deal with a, you know, a methhead on the subway, like there's no rational pro or counter move. That makes sense, right?

Um, as for like whether Canada should be interfering in American politics, we need to get very we need to start interfering in American politics very very aggressively.

I mean they are open for business.

They're very clear that the Chinese and the Russians are buying their politicians uh I mean left, right and center.

They themselves I mean look what they just did in Argentina.

like they interfere with sovereign states politics all the time and our national interest is absolutely intimately bound up in interfering in American politics.

So we are going to be interfering in American politics if we want to survive.

You know that's not something we have a choice about.

That is something that is simply uh part of the world that we're entering now.

Madame BL with that do we need to try to build this relationship?

That's what I what I'm gathering from you.

or do we need to work on other relationships?

Well, this is where, you know, I I kind of disagree a little bit with with with Stephen.

With all due respect, I I don't think the United States is collapsing.

I I really don't.

And if they are, then, you know, God help us as well.

Uh, no, I think I think there are issues going on down south of the border, but at the same time, nothing's going to change the fact that our prosperity will be tied to that of the Americans for the foreseeable future, no matter what we do.

And so we need to fix the relationship there.

And we've gone about it, I think, the wrong way.

Uh we say one thing to the president, we play nice when we're in the Oval Office, but then we come home or we go around the world and we say, "Well, you know, we don't want to deal with anyone that's not reliable and we're looking for other partners."

You can't do that.

You have to be consistent and you have to not be seen to be two-faced.

That is what the president uh I think accused uh uh Prime Minister Trudeau of doing.

You got to build a relationship.

Look, the presidents all over Asia signing deals and they're and the Japanese of all countries who are set in their ways uh are actually finding a way to work with this president, turning the page, live in the real world, live in the world that we are in now and actually getting something out of it.

We cannot continue to have this uncertainty.

we're paying the price now.

Time is money.

Um, and I think we're going to have to find a way back to the negotiation table and I have to be realistic and and then we'll move on from there.

But I do agree that things have changed and we do need to uh look to other markets in addition to that United States.

But we first have to fix uh the relationship there and that will actually help us internationally because if we ask countries around the world to make a choice between us and can and the United States, well the size of the US market is simply too big.

Stephen, I'll get your take.

Obviously, one thing is clear. Things are not the same.

But the way that we go about it, I I gather, is a little different.

What's the point in negotiating with a pirate?

I mean, anytime that we come to an agreement, they'll just rip it up in the next five minutes.

We're dealing with we're not dealing with the America that we knew.

We are dealing with an authoritarian state that is explicitly talked about annexing us which I I mean her excellency really does not seem to have processed like we are we are dealing with a threat to our security and to our sovereignty from the south and the idea that we should just roll over and take it and suddenly they'll come to their senses and treat us like the good little boys and girls that we are if we just behave is laughable.

we are dealing with a threat to our security and to our sovereignty from the south and the idea that we should just roll over and take it and suddenly they'll come to their senses and treat us like the good little boys and girls that we are if we just behave is laughable.

like they they will take exa they will take every advantage they can.

That's exactly what they've done.

The more vulnerable that we are, the more they will take.

We are not dealing with people who can be treated as reasonable human beings with uh with reasonable goals.

We are dealing with people who are annexationists are in the middle of a a breakdown.

So like that we do not have good choices.

Like I I totally agree with that.

But the idea that we're going to go back and we're going to somehow come to some kind of arrangement if we just behave.

This is the Canadian spirit that has actually got us into this mess.

We need to understand that the only response that will get any respect from authoritarians like Trump is one of great great aggression.

And that is that is that is that is clear from every country that has ever lived beside an authoritarian society.

Finland doesn't try to make peace and make good with Russia.

They they come to their own arrangements and they make deals with other people.

And that is the world that we're in.

I wish we weren't.

I wish we were in the world where Americans were reasonable human beings we could talk to, but we're not.

And I would point out that like the fact that almost 50% of Canadians understand that America is our enemy according to polls.

enemy um means that the Canadian people have registered this and they know that suffering is coming.

Like we we we know that the winter is coming for us.

So I I I mean I I just think pretending that America is the country that it was is just not helpful.

It's just not it's just not useful at this point.

Stephen, I think you're referencing the Pew Research Center that said, you know, 59% were allies, but there was also another percentage that said that it was our enemy as well.

No, it was the Angus Reed poll. It was the Angus Reed poll. Correct.

It was the Angus Reed poll.

Correct.

Okay.

The the Pew Research had the Pew Research actually was more interesting because it said our number one enemy is America and and our number one ally is America.

That is actually the position in which we unfortunately find ourselves.

But but both of them point out I mean both of them demonstrate pretty clearly that the American that the Canadian people understand that we're not dealing with uh you know the America of 2023.

We we we're not.

Very good. Madame Blair, let's get you in here.

If that is the case that Stephen is paint painting right there, how does Canada maintain its middle power if we have a tenuous relationship with the US as it is?

Well, I I I don't know that the goal is to maintain our or our middle power.

What is what is the goal?

Well, the goal is to actually, you know, and that I totally agree.

I mean, Canada's uh global interests are really twofold.

one is is our economic security and the other one is security security.

So both of them are fundamental.

We need to bring back our foreign policy on on those.

We have an you know borders to defend and we have an economy to build.

So I think we should be focusing on that going around the world and saying we're a middle power.

I I just don't see the point of that.

I think at the moment we have to be I agree with Stephen. We have to be realistic.

This is a difficult tough tough world.

Uh, and uh, Canada benefited from the gentiel universe that we used to live in.

It's not like that anymore.

Uh, I think I'm a lot more worried about what could happen in the Arctic than I am on the southern border.

Quite frankly, we we do have a uh, we're very close to to Russia, just like Finland.

And uh, and China has already expressed their uh, their uh, interests in the Arctic.

They've already mapped the seafloor.

So I think we have to be very very clear that we need to focus on us need to focus on our own well-being and that doesn't mean we completely abandon uh human rights uh but I don't think we need to be the savior of the world.

and that doesn't mean we completely abandon uh human rights uh but I don't think we need to be the savior of the world.

I think at the moment we should focus our energy on us and so uh I I I don't think we should chase any label but we should be realistic.

We live in this continent.

We live with our geography.

We have our strengths.

We have our weaknesses.

We should be focusing on those.

All right, very quickly, one last question to both of you with that.

Uh, if we are not the savior then, Stephen, what should Canada's role in the world be right now?

Oh, I I don't think we should have a role in the world.

I think we should concentrate entirely on our own survival.

I think that is our own priority.

the idea that we're going to be global citizens and like uh you know sort of the virtuous you you know the virtuous child at the at the uh adult table of of uh global politics that that should end like what we need to concentrate right now is on our material security surv survival.

what we need to concentrate right now is on our material security surv survival.

I mean we have massive gaps in our national infrastructure.

I mean madamel brought up the Arctic I mean I could not agree more like priority one all other priorities rescinded um but you know we don't have an effective u security service security apparatus for our national interest and we don't have an effective military that can protect us from from actual you know annexation as forces.

like priority one all other priorities rescinded um but you know we don't have an effective u security service security apparatus for our national interest and we don't have an effective military that can protect us from from actual you know annexation as forces.

but you know we don't have an effective u security service security apparatus for our national interest and we don't have an effective military that can protect us from from actual you know annexation as forces.

These are the priorities that we need to focus on.

Not you know the multilateral uh world that we came from and that of course we feel most comfortable in and that god knows I wish we were back in.

Um but you know I think in the at least in the short to medium term but probably for the next couple of decades uh our own survival as a democracy as a multicultural democracy um and and as a society in which um education and and the values that we have aspired to can be maintained. That needs to be our priority.

All right, Madame Blair, you get the last 30 seconds.

What does that role look like for Canada right now?

Well, I do agree.

I think I think in a sense we have to be careful not to I I hear a lot of issues about a coalition of the willing and all of this.

I I I just don't see it.

And we've heard things like Canada should join the EU.

Look, we're not European.

Uh and and I I

most Europeans I speak to don't think this is even feasible.

So, no, I don't think we should look to join another club or create another club.

I think we should really focus on where we are.

I think there are alliances that we can build.

There's no doubt about that and we can continue to be reliable partners around the world.

We need to look to markets.

Uh but I don't think we need to look for a a policing role or or trying to replace the United States um as as the beacon of democratic values.

I think that that would be very difficult to achieve and also very dangerous.

Um so I think instead of of virtue signaling, let's focusing on our interest.

Well, we are going to leave it there.

Madame BL Steven, thank you very much for your time and your insights.

Pleasure.