Kyra Blackwell: I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Rosie Garren: I'm Rosie Garren. And you're listening to the Wirecutter Show.

Kyra Blackwell: Hi, Rosie.

Rosie Garren: Hey, Kyra. Welcome back.

Kyra Blackwell: Thank you. We were somewhere really fun.

Rosie Garren: I just saw you last at the Minnesota State Fair.

Kyra Blackwell: That's right. It was quite an experience. It was really fun. I went in like a brand new dough. I had knew nothing about state fairs really. And this one is one of the biggest in the country. Over 2 million people attended this year. And they're known for the butter sculptures. That's a big one. Fried—

Rosie Garren: Everything.

Kyra Blackwell: Everything on a stick. The big pumpkin competition of course. And there is even a tent where farm animals were giving birth.

Rosie Garren: I'm bummed that we didn't get to see that one. Next time we go. But everything. It was all such a cool experience. And we got to go because we were there to record an episode about food that Minnesotans apparently love just as much as we do here at Wirecutter. Pickles. I mean, no one loves pickles more than I love pickles.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah.

Rosie Garren: There were pickle snacks galore at the fair if you recall. I mean, fried pickles. Pickle pizza, pickles on a stick with cream cheese and meat, which I'm fairly certain is called Minnesota sushi. They have something for everybody there.

Kyra Blackwell: Truly something for everyone. But we weren't just there to taste fair foods. We were there to talk with some pickle experts about how to can, preserve, and pickle all sorts of vegetables. And we were there to learn from Wirecutter staffer Mackie Yazawa about her recent guide to grocery store pickles. There is a lot to talk about just there on the tons of varieties. So, her guide actually only covered dill pickles, which is made with a vinegar brine, and sours, which is made with a saltwater brine, but I'm sure she will be updating that guide to talk about some other kind of pickle. We were also joined on stage by the canning coordinator for the fair, who is kind of a local superstar, Mary Bartz, and a prize-winning pickler, Teresa Craig, who is absolutely lovely. And this is her art and her craft. And of course our colleague Mackie. And today we're going to bring you some of that conversation. We recorded it live on stage at the Minnesota State Fair in August. And at the end you're going to get to hear a little bit of our taste test. We did a live taste test which was also really fun, really special. We hope you enjoy it. And today we're going to be talking about pickles.

Rosie Garren: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited.

Kyra Blackwell: It's big. It's big here. And it just so happened that we published a guide on pickles at Wirecutter very recently, right?

Rosie Garren: Right? And there's just so much to say about them. I feel like pickles are really polarizing. People who hate them really hate them and the people who love them like a very specific type. So I feel like there's just so much that we can get into today. We are going to bring on our coworker, great journalist, Mackie. Mackie just finished testing pickles for us at Wirecutter and we're gonna ask her a lot of questions about that process. Hey Mackie.

Kyra Blackwell: Hi Mackie.

Mackie Yazawa: Hello. I'm very ready to talk pickles with you.

Rosie Garren: We're so excited. So again, Mackie wrote Wirecutter's Guide to Pickles. She's got a culinary degree from the Institute of Culinary Education. She's worked as a caterer and in professional kitchens as a cook. So for those who don't know about Wirecutter Mackie, can you just give us a little bit of background on what that whole process looks like from picking the pickles to testing them to actually like making your top choices?

Mackie Yazawa: Oh yeah, it is a long process. I will go into market. I'll talk to local experts. I'll interview The Pickle Guys in New York City who taught me how to make pickles from scratch. So we really go deep on every single topic. And my original model list was 80 pickles of store-bought ones that you can get mostly across the country. And we had to kind of tone it down, make it more palatable for the team. So I assembled a group of four panelists of all very experienced tasters, editors, and writers on the kitchen team. And from there, we tried 47 different pickles.

Kyra Blackwell: My god.

Mackie Yazawa: In the span of a week.

Kyra Blackwell: And you narrowed it down to how many?

Mackie Yazawa: We made 10 picks. Yeah.

Rosie Garren: How did you not get tired of pickles?

Mackie Yazawa: We weren't tired, but we definitely experienced palate fatigue. We had to take some breaks, drink a lot of water, kind of stay hydrated, and just take it nice and slow.

Rosie Garren: So, you published a guide and an article to this, and it has all of the picks. Most of them, I think, ended up as either dill or half sour. Is that right?

Mackie Yazawa: So, we actually focused on dill and sours. There aren't that many sours on the market that you can buy all over the country. Like I think your local pickle shops are the best place to buy really good sours, but there are a few that did stand out. And then we had a lot of dills to try. So those were the main categories.

Kyra Blackwell: What we're going to ask our guests who are coming up in a minute about this as well, but I want to know from you. What makes a good pickle? Do you think?

Mackie Yazawa: For me, I mean that's the thing like Kyra mentioned subjective, right? It is so subjective and pickles are so incredibly polarizing. Everyone kind of has their own favorite. So for me personally, I'm a vinegar based pickle girl. I like to have something with a good amount of crunch. And I do like the refrigerated ones more than the—

Rosie Garren: I love a good cold pickle. So when you're standing in a grocery store, maybe you're not really sure what kind of pickle you love. How do you decide? Cuz the I mean the grocery store is the jars. It's just an aisle full of pickle jars.

Mackie Yazawa: It is so overwhelming. I would say read our guide first because there's so many different options there. And I will say they're all for like a different use case. Like we have a crinkle chip that's good for your hamburger, but then we also have like a very slender thin one that you want to put in your sub and then a nice delicious sour that you want to eat on a hot summer day. So there's a pickle for every moment.

Kyra Blackwell: What did you learn that surprised you in the testing? In all of the testing that you did, all of these 80 to 47 to 10. Did you learn that you hate pickles?

Mackie Yazawa: No, I definitely don't hate pickles. It was very polarizing. We did a few social videos and like the comments were just insane.

Rosie Garren: I don't know if there are Claussen lovers here, but—

Kyra Blackwell: I love Claussen.

Mackie Yazawa: That was definitely a topic of debate.

Rosie Garren: Meaning what exactly?

Mackie Yazawa: It didn't perform that well during our taste test. And people let me know for sure in the comments.

Rosie Garren: I'm also a Claussen hater. I'm so sorry.

Mackie Yazawa: See, this is what we're talking about. Pickles are polarizing. We had people on our panel that were lifelong Claussen lovers and they just I don't know maybe they've changed, maybe we've changed, I don't know.

Kyra Blackwell: Well, Mackie, thank you so much for being here sharing your insight with the testing. We're going to broaden this conversation a little bit and we're going to talk with Mary Bartz. Mary is a judge in this state fair's pickling contest.

Rosie Garren: Which is a really big deal. And also Teresa Craig. Teresa, also a huge—she was the winning pickler of last year's contest. I think there's a specific title that she got and I'm going to tell you that in just a minute once we bring them up stage. So come on up.

Kyra Blackwell: Thank you for joining us. Welcome. Welcome. So yeah, Teresa, she earned one of the top honors. She was the 2025 Minnesota State Fair's Prestigious Processor of Pantry.

Rosie Garren: Prestigious Processor of Pantry. Teresa Craig.

Teresa Craig: Hi.

Kyra Blackwell: Hi. And Mary, as a judge, you've been a judge for over 20 years. Why is pickling still such a big popular thing today, especially when it's so easy to just go to the grocery store and buy anything that you want? Like, why do you think pickling has remained so popular?

Mary Bartz: I think there are a lot of reasons. In Minnesota, we have two seasons, winter and road construction. So, in addition to road construction, everybody knows that we're big gardeners. You know, I grew up like Teresa, putting up the produce. And, you know, canning was a big part of my family tradition. And I think people are getting back into touching that aspect of making things personal, the family connections, and just really enjoying the fruits of their own labor. So, I would just love to know, Teresa, how did you get into pickling?

Teresa Craig: My grandparents and my aunt and uncle did a lot of canning. My immediate family, they didn't do it at all. But I really missed my grandma. She passed away about 20 years ago. One of my biggest memories of her is going into her basement and seeing—I'm going to cry. Like I just I love my grandma so much and I just wanted to have connection to her and it's the best way I could think of to do it.

Rosie Garren: That's so sweet. Mary, you are familiar with not just pickles.

Mary Bartz: That's true.

Kyra Blackwell: Talk about some of the things that you have pickled and canned and fermented and touched and dealt with over the years over your long long career.

Mary Bartz: Well, yeah, over the course of my career, it's everything from jams and jellies and butters and relishes and then our scorecards reflect the safety of the product, the texture of the product, the appearance of the product, and the aroma and the flavor of the product. So, we have a lot to talk about. Teresa, you didn't come in day one of pickling as the prestigious pantry processor. Like, talk about your journey a little bit.

Teresa Craig: So, the first year I actually got disqualified on every category except for one.

Kyra Blackwell: Which one?

Rosie Garren: See, that's relatable though cuz you're not coming in as number one.

Teresa Craig: Well, you know, because I don't know. I didn't read. You know, they have jar sizes and different things like that you have to enter. But I actually got a first place. Gedney Pickle used to sponsor a big kind of creative relish category and I'm really big into relishes. So that's my favorite thing. But yeah, I got the sweepstakes ribbon in that and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is kind of cool." So now maybe I need to try to do more.

Rosie Garren: I would love to talk to you guys more about people who want to pickle at home. I would love to hear more about your best tips for how people can do that. Everything from safety because that's a really big aspect with pickling to the texture.

Mary Bartz: I am the enforcer. So I was well trained at the University of Minnesota. I have a food science degree and the the number one resource that we use is the University of Georgia. They are the National Center for Home Food Preservation, the "So Easy to Preserve" is their book. But they have a fabulous website. So please start there. Read the basic information because, you know, canning water bath processing is a one way to preserve the bounty of your harvest. We talk about the acidity of the brine. We talk about the processing method. It's sort of a time and temperature. And so the guidance for everything from headspace to jar size to how to select your vegetables, looking for uniformity, all of that is in those resources. So that's where I would start.

Rosie Garren: Okay. Can you talk a little bit more about the water bath process cuz I know that's a really big important part of pickling.

Kyra Blackwell: Oh, a 101 if you can cuz that was the thing that scared me off of pickling and is not scary at all. It's not. I mean I'm petrified of pressure canning because I hear all those—

Mary Bartz: Different. Pressure canning is for say you're canning sweet corn or green beans. So it's not a brine. It's more of just a general liquid and so you don't have the acidity level of the product or of the brine. So you need the pressure canning that helps get the temperature up to a higher temperature to ensure that all of the microbes are killed. So it's food safe. But Teresa you talk about water bath canning.

Teresa Craig: So water bath is super easy. A big stock pot is the simplest form. You can buy the big black enamel pot at Menards or any hardware store if you're going to keep doing it. They have a little rack in it.

Kyra Blackwell: And you want to lift the jars up.

Teresa Craig: Yeah, so you want to be able to have that water circulating underneath the jars. You bring it to a boil. It's normally 10 to 15 minutes processing time, and then you just let them sit on your counter for 24 hours.

Kyra Blackwell: When people submit to you, you want that jar to like kind of pop when you're opening.

Mary Bartz: Well, and when we open it, it can pop. It doesn't always pop. You know, a good judge and their clerk make sure that it's definitely sealed because if it's not sealed when a judge goes to open it—

Kyra Blackwell: Then it is disqualified. Yeah.

Mary Bartz: Because we cannot risk having a judge—

Rosie Garren: Getting sick.

Mary Bartz: Potentially. I may be fine, but—

Rosie Garren: Okay. We're going to take a quick break from our conversation at the Minnesota State Fair. And when we come back, we'll hear what judges look for in a prizewinning pickle and taste test a few pickle treats ourselves. So stick around. We're back. Today's episode is a conversation all about pickles, which we recorded live at the Minnesota State Fair in August.

Kyra Blackwell: But when you walk up, okay, let's take Teresa's jar here. What are you looking for immediately? You mention the base, the head rim at the top, but what are you looking at first?

Mary Bartz: So, with pickles, I'm looking for uniformity. This is a jar of spears. The uniformity of her slices is very nice. It accepts the heat evenly. So if you have large pickles and small pickles, sometimes those large pickles might be overprocessed, maybe mushy, I don't know. It just depends. Every jar you open is an adventure. And you're also looking for a color. And I imagine Teresa, I bet you could talk about this. The freshness of the produce really changes the way that the texture is.

Teresa Craig: For sure. And I mean that would be my biggest tip for everybody. Get fresh produce. I mean obviously if you can grow it yourself that's the best. But if not you need to work with a local farmer or a gardener. The fresher your produce is cuz you want a crunchy pickle, right? But even if it's not a pickle, if you're canning a jam, a jelly or something, fresher the better.

Kyra Blackwell: For the both of you, what are you looking for? And you too, Mackie. Like as you were testing, what are you looking for in the liquid?

Mackie Yazawa: Yeah, when we were testing for the guide, we would say that the brine was almost as important as the pickle itself. There's so many ways that you can use the brine afterwards. So, we ended up making Dr. Pickles after, which is a Dr Pepper spiked with nice and tasty brine. So, it definitely was a big consideration for us.

Rosie Garren: That sounds delicious.

Mackie Yazawa: It was very good.

Kyra Blackwell: A lot of times you're seeing a very clear brine if it's just vinegar, maybe a little bit of sugar, salt.

Mary Bartz: Yeah. And you know, the other thing too, if you're using like sea salt or some of the other salts rather than a canning salt, that can make your brine cloudy. Typically good rule of thumb, if it is something water bath canned, it should not be cloudy. I wouldn't touch it.

Kyra Blackwell: Teresa, I want to know what the most experimental jars you've made that have actually worked.

Teresa Craig: So work is subjective. For my family, a lot of the things have worked for the state fair. Not—

Kyra Blackwell: Okay. So let's first talk about for your family what what do they like?

Teresa Craig: I mean they like pickles. I like pickled peas actually like so pickled fresh peas are really good. Pickled cauliflower we really like. This year I did some pickled dandelion blossoms. So they turned out like little capers. That was really fun and exciting. It was a lot of work to get one jar so I don't know if I will do that again.

Kyra Blackwell: For Mary and for Mackie, what is the weirdest pickled thing you've ever eaten?

Mackie Yazawa: So, after we did testing for storebought pickles, we did a fun YouTube episode on pickle flavored snacks.

Mackie Yazawa: So, my favorite was actually sour rope, sour pickle flavored, and it sounded really weird at first, but they're really good.

Kyra Blackwell: Candy.

Mackie Yazawa: Candy. Sour candy.

Rosie Garren: Pickle candy.

Mackie Yazawa: Yeah, I would eat that. I would. We had like popcorn and like flavored nuts and things like that, but the candy was a standout. Mary,

Mary Bartz: Well, I'm looking at that jar of candied cucumber cinnamon pickles and that it's really sweet and cloying. I would say cloyingly sweet and cinnamony. Red Hots are part of the recipe. So—

Teresa Craig: Yes. Yeah. When I opened it, it smelled like Red Hots, like liquefied Red Hots.

Mary Bartz: And you know, I've been judging a long time. Every year I probably can pick out something that's kind of unique and kind of different, but so this is the number one from this year. I think we're going to try this, but we're going to do a little taste test, all of us, here on the stage.

Kyra Blackwell: I actually want to start with Teresa first, though, because Teresa brought her own winning pickles. I'm really excited for those. So, I think we're going to start there. Teresa, can you tell us more about your pickle?

Teresa Craig: So, the one that won first place this year, this is just a sweet pickle. It's nice and crispy. That's a big thing for me.

Rosie Garren: I usually don't even like sweet pickles, but this is so good. It's not too sweet.

Teresa Craig: I still add a little more vinegar than you're supposed to because I'm the same way.

Kyra Blackwell: The acidity balance is important,

Teresa Craig: Right? And these are really good, too. This is also a recipe I use for making a pickle relish.

Mackie Yazawa: It's really a well balanced flavor. The depth of flavor is really nice. It's almost like um—

Kyra Blackwell: Almost like a molassesy or honeyy kind of thing going on.

Teresa Craig: And there is a tablespoon of honey in it too.

Kyra Blackwell: Is that right?

Teresa Craig: And that's the other thing. So honey, if you're looking for color, like turmeric's the big color factor for pickles, but honey at boiling temperatures will make it darker. So I kind of like that deeper color.

Kyra Blackwell: And then next we have your fermented pickle. Can you explain what a fermented pickle is?

Rosie Garren: I don't know what that means.

Teresa Craig: All right. So, fermented pickles. If anybody's nervous about the water bath side of it, anybody can do these at home. Can I show my little lid, please?

Rosie Garren: Yeah. Yeah. What is this lid? You got a special lid.

Teresa Craig: Okay. These are the greatest invention ever. They're called Easy Fermenter lids. I think you can get them on Amazon. You can just take a regular mason jar, wide mouth jar. You put your product in. Carrots work great in it, cucumbers, cauliflower, and then you just make a brine. There's a lot of recipes on the University of Georgia site that actually has a brine mixture. You put that in, you leave it on your counter for a few weeks, you don't even touch it, and then you come back to it and you have a nice jar of lacto-fermented pickles. So, let's taste it.

Mackie Yazawa: Savory, salty, crunchies. It's all the things that you want in a pickle.

Kyra Blackwell: And see, I would say typically this isn't like a Minnesota favorite style of pickle. Um, why is that?

Teresa Craig: It's more sour. Okay. You know, the sour pickles aren't as popular, I don't think, in the Midwest compared to other areas. I don't know, you Mary.

Mary Bartz: I think we all need to expand our palates.

Kyra Blackwell: I would, what do you think?

Mackie Yazawa: Yeah. And I mean, we're New York based, so this is definitely the pickle of New York City. So, sour. This would be a hit over there. It's delicious.

Rosie Garren: Okay, Mary, I think we're going to try your experimental pickle.

Mary Bartz: Now, wait a minute. This is not mine.

Rosie Garren: Not yours. I'm sorry. This is the one that you brought the jar.

Kyra Blackwell: I should describe this. This is a jar that is would you say cherry red?

Mary Bartz: Radioactive red.

Kyra Blackwell: Radioactive red. There's a dark cinnamon stick kind of poking out of it. And the cucumbers inside are they've been peeled. They almost look they look like candy. They look like candy.

Teresa Craig: And they've been cut into a ring. So they're very cylindrical.

Mary Bartz: They'd be very appropriate on a Christmas table cuz they're very red.

Kyra Blackwell: All right, let's try it out.

Rosie Garren: Oh, I like that.

Kyra Blackwell: Oh, I love that. That's incredible.

Mary Bartz: Really?

Kyra Blackwell: I don't know how to describe it. It tastes like a holiday candy almost.

Rosie Garren: Yeah. Well, that is unlike anything I've ever tasted. Aren't you glad I brought them?

Teresa Craig: It tastes a bit like Christmas in the mouth.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah, it's like nutmegy and cinnamony and sweet. I've never had anything like that before.

Rosie Garren: The texture is really interesting.

Kyra Blackwell: Yeah. How would you describe the texture? Yeah, Mackie, you're on. You're on. Would you make that recipe, though?

Mackie Yazawa: I mean, this is not your traditional pickle, but I think that's really refreshing. I mean, I don't know. How would you normally eat this? Would you pair it with anything? I think it'd be really good, you know, on a Thanksgiving table. You know, if you have all the saltiness of turkey and dressing and mashed potatoes and gravy, that hit of sweetness might just be a bright spot. Very crunchy.

Rosie Garren: I don't think I could have a whole jar of that.

Kyra Blackwell: No, it's very—

Rosie Garren: Yeah, I love this. I don't think it's going to end up in your local grocery store, so I'm wondering how we can get our hands—

Mary Bartz: We need to source some more. We can find the recipe.

Teresa Craig: Yeah, we'll source the recipe for you.

Kyra Blackwell: Okay. So, next we are going to try the famous fried pickle from The Perfect Pickle. That looks really good.

Rosie Garren: It's so crunchy.

Teresa Craig: There's so much crunch.

Kyra Blackwell: Mackie, what do you—I feel like I need your culinary skills to describe what we're eating.

Mackie Yazawa: Well, I like the—I think it was like a crinkle cut slice. I'm always a fan of that. And I mean, the breading is just fantastic. There's just so much crunch. And I mean, this has been sitting for a little bit and there's still so much crunch. So yeah, they're like cool but still. So I mean it's the texture is amazing.

Mary Bartz: This is I think one that's been perfected over time obviously cuz it seems rather perfect to me. I've had fried pickles before and what I have found is that they're often soggy inside. And that has none of that. It's really yummy. Amazing.

Kyra Blackwell: I would call it addicting. I ate my entire fried pickle and I want more.

Rosie Garren: Yeah, I do too. I think we're going to be going over there to get our own after this. I want some sauce.

Teresa Craig: Oh, a dipping sauce. Yeah.

Kyra Blackwell: Next, we've got this savory pickle pie from Lulu's Public House. So, this is a new food at the fair this year. This is a hot ticket item. I'm really excited to hear what you guys think. I have a dairy allergy, so I can't eat it. But I need you guys to let me experience it through you.

Rosie Garren: It's a typical crust. What is that? Cream cheese in there, I think.

Mackie Yazawa: So, it's a cold pie.

Teresa Craig: Oh, wow. I'm not getting as much pickle as I thought I would, but this is interesting.

Mary Bartz: It's rich. The flavor is very, very rich. That is again one of the more unique things I've ever eaten. There's a pickle garnish on top which is incredibly crunchy.

Kyra Blackwell: Man. I wish I could try that one. I really do.

Rosie Garren: It's very good.

Kyra Blackwell: That's it for our taste test. That's it for our episode. Thank you so much for joining us, you guys.

Rosie Garren: Mary Bartz, Teresa Craig, and Mackie Yazawa. Thank you guys so so much for joining us. This was really, really fun. Thank you. Thank you.

Guests: Thanks.

Kyra Blackwell: That's it for us. We will drop links to Mackie's guide to grocery store pickles, plus some of the pickling and canning resources that Mary Bartz and Teresa Craig recommended for beginners in case you want to get into it in our show notes. Thanks so much for listening. The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Garren and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alicia Beitup, Katherine Anderson, Rowan Nisto, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Frumin is Wirecutter's editor-in-chief. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Rosie Garren: And I'm Rosie Garren. Thanks for listening.