[Natalie Kitroof]: From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroof. This is the Daily. On Tuesday, mayors will vote in a primary for a highstakes Senate seat that Democrats think they can win back from Republicans for the first time in decades. They're pinning their hopes on progressive Democrat Graham Platner, a charismatic oyster farmer and a combat veteran with a populist message. But Platner's faced a string of accusations surrounding his personal behavior, including new reporting in the Times that broke last week. Today, my colleagues Lisa Lair and Katie Glick explain what this race means for Maine and for the prospects of the Democratic Party. It's Tuesday, June 9th. Hi, Lisa.

[Lisa Lair]: Hi.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Hi, Katie.

[Katie Glick]: Hi.

[Natalie Kitroof]: So, we have you here because you two broke this story late last week and I think it's fair to say that it generated a huge reaction.

[Lisa Lair]: I think that's fair to say. It's been quite the wild couple of days. I think this story has really divided voters and strategists and the chattering political class not only in Maine but just all over the country. Just to lay it out, this was a story about the experiences of past girlfriends of Graham Platner. Allegations of heavy drinking, physical intimidation. These were not allegations of anything criminal. No allegations of domestic abuse, but some pretty rough stuff. And we're going to get deeper into that reporting. But before we do that, just explain for me the stakes of what we're talking about here, the stakes of this race.

[Katie Glick]: I think that in part it reflects just how critical this race is. Maine is all but essential to the Democrats path to retaking the Senate. But, you know, even before there was any serious talk of who the Democratic nominee could or should be, Maine loomed so large in the minds of Democrats because they thought last time that Susan Collins was on the ballot that she was finally going to lose. Instead, she wins. And so going in to 2026, people were extremely motivated to finally mount a campaign that could actually defeat Senator Collins. You know, and I also think this race, it's a place where they have really tested this thesis, which many Democrats believe that the party needs new energy, new leadership, more authentic messengers, and they are testing that through this candidate, Graham Platner, who is likely to be their Democratic nominee in this race.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Okay. So, a lot writing on this, both in terms of the numbers, as you guys have said, and in terms of these broader ideas of what the Democratic Party's identity is. Let's just talk about how we got here. Set up this contest for us.

[Lisa Lair]: So, at the very beginning of this contest, there was really a widespread expectation that the Democratic nominee would be Janet Mills, who is the 78-year-old two-term governor of Maine. She was the candidate that was the pick of Chuck Schumer who really is in charge of Democrats ambitions for the Senate. She had the political staff. She was just a well-known Democratic leader in this state. And then over last summer, some progressive operatives and activists decided that they were really unhappy with Mills as the pick. And so they went up to Maine and started looking for someone else who could challenge Janet Mills in the Democratic primary. And they found Graham Platner, who at the time was running a small oyster farm in coastal Maine. He had moved back up in 2016 after spending some time in Washington, serving in the military. He had never run for any elected office, but they decided that this was the guy who could challenge Janet Mills and should he win the nomination, eventually Susan Collins.

[Natalie Kitroof]: And why pick him? I get that he reads as homegrown. You know, he's a little rough around the edges in a kind of everyman way, but what about him specifically felt like the right choice for these progressives? How did they actually land on this guy?

[Katie Glick]: They had seen a video that he had done as part of like an aquaculture association sort of related to the oysters.

[Natalie Kitroof]: An aquaculture association.

[Katie Glick]: Yes, that's what the oyster made.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Got it.

[Katie Glick]: Um, and you know, he had been involved with some very local political fights over aquaculture in the bay where he has his oyster farm. And they saw that he could sort of speak compellingly and what he had to say was essentially an economic populist message talking about taking on corruption, taking on billionaires, and that sort of caught their attention. And there was also this idea of from the progressive democratic side of making this a test case for the party establishment of this was a place where they thought that they could sort of send a message about the kind of leaders they thought the party should have.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Okay. So these progressives find Platner. They choose him. They see him as the foil for Janet Mills. And what happens? How does it go?

[Lisa Lair]: In Maine, there is a new Democrat trying to harvest a political career, so to speak. He starts taking off. Let's talk about Flatner who's completely unknown and untested. He has just kind of exploded on the scene. He has a lot of natural political talent.

[Graham Platner (Audio Clip)]: My name is Graham Platner and I am running for United States Senate.

[Katie Glick]: He's sitting for every interview.

[Podcast Host (Audio Clip)]: My guest today is a veteran oyster farmer and main Senate candidate, Graham Platner. Graham, great to see you.

[Graham Platner (Audio Clip)]: Thank you.

[Podcast Host (Audio Clip)]: Our guest this Sunday is Graham Platner who's running for Senate in Maine.

[Podcast Host (Audio Clip)]: Let's talk to Graham Platner.

[Katie Glick]: Hours and hours and hours of podcasting of interviews.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Relatable.

[Katie Glick]: Relatable, right? Um he's doing these town halls.

[Graham Platner (Audio Clip)]: Until the Democratic Party at the federal level is no longer beholden to the same corporate interests that the Republican party is, we're going to find ourselves back in this position over and over and over.

[Katie Glick]: And he begins to sort of build a following.

[Graham Platner (Audio Clip)]: We are hanging on by a threat and we either organize and build power in fight or we lose and we can't lose.

[Lisa Lair]: So he also benefits from two major liabilities for Governor Mills. The first is there is a real strain of anti-establishment fervor running through at least some corners of the Democratic base right now. People are upset with Democratic leadership in Washington. And the other thing is her age. Platner is 41. Mills is 78. Coming off of the experience of the 2024 election, a lot of Democrats are demanding a new generation of leadership. And the thing that we would hear from voters over and over is that no matter how much they respected Governor Mills, 78 is too old.

[Natalie Kitroof]: So he takes off for all the reasons you're saying, Katie. And then what happens?

[Katie Glick]: So the flip side of finding new outsider political candidates is sometimes they have not gone through the kind of vetting that veteran establishment politicians have done. and revelations about a trove of comments he made on Reddit, some of them quite inflammatory, come out. Revelations that he had a tattoo on his chest that was widely recognized as a Nazi symbol come out and it sends his campaign into what looks like freeall. You know, he has staffers leaving the campaign. There's talk of NDAs uh being required for the people who stay. And a lot of people assume that these controversies are going to doom him.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Lisa, can you say more about both of these things, both the tattoo and these Reddit comments? Like, what are we actually talking about here?

[Lisa Lair]: So, the tattoo was a skull and crossbones that Graham Platner had done on his chest back in 2007 when he was in the Marines. And it turned out that this was not just any skull and crossbones, that this was in fact a Nazi symbol, a toteen comb.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Uhhuh.

[Lisa Lair]: He actually revealed it himself. His campaign had gotten word that the tattoo was going to be put out there by the media. So, he went on Pod Save America, a liberal podcast. And basically what he says is, "I got this tattoo when I was in the Marines. I didn't know what it was until this campaign and what he calls DC insiders and opposition researchers brought it to my campaign's attention. And I regret having it." And he eventually he gets it covered up. And the phrase he used is, "I'm not a secret Nazi." He says he's lived his life like what he as a normal person. He's taken his shirt off at the beach and at the gym and no one in his life ever told him that he had a Nazi tattoo.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Got it. And the Reddit posts,

[Katie Glick]: so the Reddit posts are a trove of about 2,000 posts, comments really, that he made on Reddit from about 2009 to 2021 when he says he stopped posting. It's clear that he deleted some of the posts before he entered the campaign. But as with all things on the internet, deleted things can often come back and be refound. And they're just a trove of commentary. Some of his comments are quite controversial. Made a few comments about women sort of poo pooing women who get raped and sort of questioning why they are getting so drunk that they end up raped. He used slurs about gay people, about mentally disabled people. And how does Platner explain these messages? He has said that many of the most inflammatory comments he wrote at a very dark time in his life. Platner is a combat veteran who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he says that they do not reflect the man he is today and urges mayors not to judge him for as he paraphrasing here the worst thing he said on the internet on a particularly bad day 14 years ago.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Part of his response is to say look I served this country. I came out deeply damaged. That's what you're seeing in these posts and I regret them. So how did that land?

[Lisa Lair]: I think Democratic strategists immediately see this as a major liability, not only for his candidacy in the primary, but also in the general, given that Republicans have already said they're going to spend tens of millions of dollars on ads, no matter who is the nominee. So, the Mills campaign sees an opportunity in all of this and they start running ads featuring women, particularly featuring his comments about rape to try to swing Maine voters towards their side and build her support. But, you know, it doesn't really matter if Democrats in Washington and Millstra just see this as a liability. What matters, of course, is what Maine voters think,

[Natalie Kitroof]: right?

[Katie Glick]: So, we went up to Maine to hear about that. And there were really a range of reactions. Some people are really worried about his comment about women and the tattoo, and they're worried that something else could maybe come out about him that could be damaging. I think perhaps one of the most striking moments we observed was a woman who stood up at a town hall and asked point blank, "What else do voters need to know about you?"

[Voter Question (Audio Clip)]: I hear your heart saying, "You've changed. You're a different person now." But they're going to try to find whatever they can. And specifically, is there an account of a woman who's going to come out and say you mistreated her? Is there anything from your past that they can dig up on a woman that maybe no didn't mean no at the time?

[Graham Platner (Audio Clip)]: No.

[Katie Glick]: His response was equally striking.

[Graham Platner (Audio Clip)]: I've never had some kind of like weird relationships with people. I have a lot of ex-girlfriends. They're all still my friends.

[Katie Glick]: He promised the audience there was nothing else that would come out. But it was also really clear that his message was hitting something really deep that these Democratic primary voters wanted.

[Supporter Audio Clip 1]: Graham Platner has given me hope. He is a good old boy. He is a regular person. He is relatable.

[Lisa Lair]: I think the authenticity of him, his ability to speak to everyday issues that are facing mayors. There were a lot of people who said that he was speaking for them for working-class voters.

[Supporter Audio Clip 2]: The affordability crisis, he definitely spoke to that and was something that I personally am struggling with. And you know,

[Lisa Lair]: there were a lot of people who believed he was a new kind of messenger for a broken political system,

[Supporter Audio Clip 3]: marginalized communities, working-class communities. I mean, we're definitely been left out of the conversations of politics for quite some time, right? And so

[Lisa Lair]: that he could create sort of a new kind of politics.

[Supporter Audio Clip 4]: For me, a big part of it is like the apologeticness, just owning up to things that he's done. And

[Lisa Lair]: you know, there's another group of people who feel a lot of empathy for his explanation that he made these mistakes at a very dark period of his life.

[Supporter Audio Clip 5]: We've all made dumb decisions and done things that we wish we hadn't done and trying to move forward from those kinds of things. That's really relatable for me. So I think it becomes clear that this is a movement and he has built something here in Maine.

[Natalie Kitroof]: It sounds like there were some doubts about Platner in the minds of some voters, but ultimately the enthusiasm for him, the enthusiasm for his politics outweighs those misgivings.

[Katie Glick]: That's exactly right. And a really perfect illustration of this is the fact that the day after we talked to all of these voters at a town hall in Maine, same town hall where Platner is facing some of these really pointed questions, Governor Janet Mills ends up dropping out of the race after spending months trailing Platner in the polls, struggling to gain traction, and really running a very low-key campaign. She says it's because she runs out of money. And when you run out of money as a candidate, that's a pretty good sign that you have not effectively connected with the voters. Meanwhile, Platner is continuing to do well in the polls. He's continuing to rake in the fundraising. And with Mill's shock decision to drop out, he effectively immediately becomes the presumptive Democratic nominee and the general election is off to the races. Hm.

[Natalie Kitroof]: So, like happens in any sort of marquee Senate race along with the front runner status comes the scrutiny

[Lisa Lair]: and this is when more allegations start to surface.

[Katie Glick]: This is when the rumors that were already surrounding him go into hyperdrive. So the first big story that breaks and it breaks by us in the New York Times and also in the Wall Street Journal is that he had been exchanging explicit messages with multiple women as recently as May 2025. Of course, his campaign launches in August 2025. And it is his wife who confirms the story to the national media. And the story is basically that, you know, within the first two weeks after he announced his campaign, she went to a campaign staffer and flagged these messages as a potential political liability. She says that they are working through it, that they're in marriage counseling. They post a four minute long tearful video message from her where she sort of explains the impact this coming out in the public has on their lives. But it also sets off this frenzy around what else there is in terms of Graham Platner's interactions with women.

[Natalie Kitroof]: And this brings us, I assume, to last Thursday when your story broke.

[Lisa Lair]: Yes. On Thursday, we published this story that has been months in the making that is rooted in more than two dozen interviews. And it's really based on allegations from three different women who dated Platner. They describe reckless and unsettling behavior. They describe heavy drinking, infidelity, and in at least one case, there is the description of physical intimidation.

[Natalie Kitroof]: When you say physical intimidation, what do you actually mean by that?

[Katie Glick]: Well, a woman who now lives in Virginia, Lindseay Field, dated Platner from about 2013 to 2015. And she described several instances of what she said was physical intimidation. There was one where she said Graham Platner yanked her out of a taxi by her wrist.

[Lisa Lair]: She said that he would kind of grab her by the shoulders hard enough to leave marks and kind of move her around from place to place. And she said once when they had both been drinking and were having a fight over infidelity, he pinned her arm behind her back and sort of pushed her into a room and held the door closed. And she says it hurt, you know, but it didn't break her arm, but it hurt. But it is important to note that Lindsay Field said that Platner never hit her. He never punched her. That this was physical, but it didn't cross that line. But beyond the issues of physical intimidation that Lindseay Field was alleging, there were other concerns that she raised. Uh she said that the way that Platner could talk about violence would leave her uneasy uh at times. She says he left an AR-15 lying around his apartment on Capitol Hill. She also recalled that he would say pretty disturbing things. For example, she told us that he would say the following quote, "If anybody ever broke in here, I would rape them." Um, she said that he added that it would not be quote in a sexual way, not in a gay way, but that he would quote rape them to show them that I'm dominant, she said. And she also added that he knew the tattoo was a Nazi symbol and he would joke about it being a Nazi symbol and called it affectionately mine toten comp. Wow.

[Natalie Kitroof]: And this is notable because Platner, as you told us, has said throughout the campaign and recently to our colleague Lulu Garcia Navaro, that he didn't know it was a Nazi tattoo.

[Katie Glick]: Exactly. And what Lindsay says is not only did he know, but he and other members of his unit and the Marines selected the tattoo because they were, as she says, quote, like a death unit. They were killers. and they saw a parallel between what they were doing and the Nazi SS unit.

[Natalie Kitroof]: And how did you evaluate these claims? I mean, she's telling you these really explosive things. How do you corroborate them?

[Lisa Lair]: So, we looked at texts over the years between uh Miss Field and Mr. Platner. We looked at uh Ghat conversations at Facebook messages between Lindsay and a number of her friends uh both during and after the relationship. We saw some of her diary entries after the relationship had ended. And we talked to two of her friends who told us that indeed the pair had had an emotionally volatile relationship at the same time. And and we're clear about this in the story. Uh you know, those friends could not offer corroboration from the time regarding the physical altercations, the most controversial comments that Lindsay described. and she told us that she didn't expect them to be able to offer that real time cooperation from that time because she said she didn't tell anyone at the time, saying that she was embarrassed. But to be clear, we spoke with three women who dated Platner on and off over a period of years, as recently as 2021. They said spending time with him could be exhilarating, but they also recounted patterns of heavy drinking, of womanizing. One of the women, for instance, told us about an incident in 2021 in which Platner was very drunk. She told him not to come over. He did anyway. Uh, and she describes his behavior uh that night as reckless and unsettling and says she goes on to cut off contact with him. So the other element that we had to contend with in this story is that Lindsay Field is a conservative and she is someone who has a long history of working in Republican politics. She worked for the Heritage Foundation which is of course a conservative think tank. She worked for Independent Women which is a conservative women's organization and she worked briefly on Nikki Haley's primary campaign. These were not things that she hid from us. She was very open about her political views and her political background and said that they had no influence on the allegations that she was making against Platner. But, you know, as part of our corroboration process and certainly on behalf of Times readers, we had to look into those claims and really investigate whether she did have any ties to the Collins campaign. And in the end, we could not find any evidence that she did. And since the story ran, Susan Collins herself came out and said she had never met Lindseay Field or even heard her name.

[Natalie Kitroof]: But of course, just because she doesn't have a connection to Susan Collins's campaign doesn't mean that she doesn't have an agenda, right? H how did you think about that?

[Katie Glick]: Well, I think that was an important question in the reporting. And so we dealt with it in a number of ways. We asked her directly about it and she said very clearly that she would have brought the allegations even against a Republican. And the other thing we did is we felt it was really really important to be transparent with Times readers about what we knew and what we did not know about her political background.

[Natalie Kitroof]: And how did the Platiner campaign react when you brought them this reporting before you publish when you're letting them know this is what our reporting has revealed?

[Lisa Lair]: So, we went to the campaign with the allegations and ran them through the story a number of times and they chose to respond in a few different ways. First, they chose to specifically deny two things. One, that Graham Platner knew what his tattoo symbolized and knew that it was a Nazi symbol at any point in time, but specifically when he got it. Second, being any allegation of any kind of physical intimidation. And beyond those two specific denials, they offered two blanket statements. One was from Graham Platner himself uh where he talked about being a less than perfect boyfriend and said he took responsibility for that behavior, but anything beyond that was categorically false. They also offered a second statement that came from the campaign where they really attempted to undercut Lindseay Field's allegations by pointing out her conservative background and really painting her as a Republican political operative. And they also connected us to five people including three former girlfriends who could testify to Platner's character. And and so we called all those people and they described a far more positive interaction with him and far more positive characterization of his sort of intimate relationships. And then we felt after a pretty intensive editing and standards process here at the times, we were ready to publish after all those months of reporting. And so we published and then all hell broke loose. We'll be right back.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Okay, Lisa, talk us through the hell breaking loose.

[Lisa Lair]: So almost immediately it was absolute mayhem on all the places that political gadflies, commentators, strategists gather online.

[Natalie Kitroof]: So X

[Lisa Lair]: X social media, Facebook, all those kinds of places. And look, you have to remember everyone across the country is invested in this race because both sides want to win control of the Senate. But they also see at least among Democrats as this really big struggle over what the path forward is for this party that is so deeply in the wilderness right now. So people really went crazy across the political spectrum and on the right and on the left they had a lot of views about this story. People on the right said the story downplayed real allegations that we had intentionally chosen not to report things that we had that were more serious than the various allegations included in our story. And what was particularly interesting about that was the people making those claims included Lindseay Fifeld herself who said there were much more serious things out there than we had reported.

[Natalie Kitroof]: So the critics on the right and this source Lindseay Field are saying you didn't go far enough. You intentionally protected Platner.

[Katie Glick]: Yes. They're saying that this story which revealed really serious allegations about Graham Platner's conduct in the past was actually a gift to his campaign because it functioned to bury more serious allegations that they believe are out there. And look, that's just categorically false. The Times is not in the business of holding back for any candidate or agenda. We published everything credible that we had.

[Natalie Kitroof]: And what about Democrats? Like what was the tenor of their response?

[Lisa Lair]: For more moderate Democratic officials, this is exactly what they have been worrying about.

[Politician Audio Clip 1]: I look forward to the day where I am not answering every single week a question about bad behavior by another dude. I I just

[Lisa Lair]: you saw Senator Alyssa Slaken from Michigan expressing exasperation about being asked about yet another Platner controversy.

[Politician Audio Clip 2]: Being a dirt bag is not authentic. You know, being a dirt bag is being a dirt bag.

[Lisa Lair]: You saw Senator John Federman of of Pennsylvania go much further in condemning this. And more broadly, there is this fear that what should be an an eminently winnable seat this year and a year that is looking to be quite challenging for Republicans is in fact going to end up backfiring for the Democrats. And on the progressive left, there was a very different reaction. They rallied behind Graham Platner.

[Bernie Sanders Audio Clip 1]: So I think when you look at politics in general, uh there are no saints uh in the United States Senate. People can argue about this aspect of Grab or another, but to my mind right now, we need allies in the United States Senate who have the guts to take on the big money.

[Lisa Lair]: Senator Bernie Sanders restated his support for Platner and said he was still standing by him.

[Bernie Sanders Audio Clip 2]: I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that Graham Platner is the next senator from the state of Maine.

[Katie Glick]: a number of sort of progressives, strategists and professionals, activists online really attempted to downplay the allegations. And Platner himself kind of takes the same tact in an interview with Chris Hayes on MS Now where he denies the physical allegations and really pushes this idea that Lindseay Fifeld is a right-wing operative. And those kinds of claims about her political background being the driver of her desire to make these allegations are really echoed across the whole ecosystem of the progressive left.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Got it. So, some worry it sounds like from moderate Democratic officials who see this as a flashing red warning sign and progressives on the other hand saying this doesn't matter. This is not going to be a problem in a way kind of more of the same. Talk about voters and how they reacted to this.

[Lisa Lair]: Well, our colleague, Daily producer Caitlyn O'Keefe, spent the weekend calling main voters and asked them what they were making of all this.

[Reporter Audio Clip]: Do you know who you're going to vote for on Tuesday primary day?

[Voter Audio Clip 1]: Absolutely. Supporting Graham Platner.

[Voter Audio Clip 2]: I'm going to vote for Graham Platner.

[Voter Audio Clip 3]: I just can't bring myself to support Platner.

[Lisa Lair]: So, there's a couple different groups of people.

[Voter Audio Clip 4]: At the end of the day, you kind of just have to figure out if you believe in someone's character or not. And I haven't believed in anyone's character other than Graham Platner for a very long time.

[Lisa Lair]: Some of them are just all in on Graham Platner.

[Voter Audio Clip 5]: I am not marrying the man. I am not dating the man. I am not expecting him to be flawless.

[Lisa Lair]: They think he's flawed. But who isn't flawed?

[Voter Audio Clip 6]: I don't see any evidence that supports the fact that he's an abusive person or did anything ridiculously out of line.

[Lisa Lair]: And some of those people also question whether to believe Lindsay Field because of her conservative background.

[Voter Audio Clip 7]: since the primary accuser has worked for the Heritage Foundation. I mean, seriously,

[Lisa Lair]: on the other hand, there's a set of people who are really against Graham Planner.

[Voter Audio Clip 8]: I don't think he has the demeanor that we need in a US senator. I think he's a clown.

[Lisa Lair]: They were wary of him before, and this is just confirmed their concerns.

[Voter Audio Clip 9]: Just because that woman happens to work for the Republicans, the one who is the chief accuser, doesn't mean she's not telling the truth. He clearly dated her. And I thought we were supposed to listen to women.

[Lisa Lair]: And they're saying, "Aren't we supposed to believe women?"

[Voter Audio Clip 10]: If we as progressive women are saying, "Believe women, except for the ones that were on the opposite political spectrum of that is wrong and gross."

[Lisa Lair]: And some of these people were lifelong Democrats are lifelong Democrats. And now they're really thinking about whether to support Collins in the general election.

[Voter Audio Clip 11]: Like I never thought that I would be factchecking Susan Collins record to see if there's anything redeemable in it. And here I am being like gh like how bad is she? Like it like makes me gross even thinking about potentially.

[Voter Audio Clip 12]: I'm not a fan of Susan Collins by any stretch. But I know that she won't embarrass the state and I'm really afraid that he will.

[Lisa Lair]: And lastly, there's just a group of people who don't know what to do. They're really torn.

[Voter Audio Clip 13]: I want to vote for someone who I can fully stand behind and in an ideal world that would be the candidate that we have. But if it's not Platiner, then who is it?

[Natalie Kitroof]: Just pitching forward to that general election scenario, it does seem entirely possible that despite all of these accusations, Platner could still win, right? It seems clear obviously that this drip drip drip of revelations has had an impact on his campaign, but we don't know if this is actually disqualifying in the eyes of voters yet.

[Katie Glick]: No. And we're a long way to go from the general election. I know for people who have been following this race closely, it feels like we've been in it for a long time, but there's still many months to go before a general election. And this is of course a year that by all indications and granted it's still fairly early is likely to favor Democrats. So it's definitely possible Graham Platner is the next senator from Maine.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Okay. Just talk about what lessons Democrats would take from either outcome here from voters in a general election rejecting Platner in part because of his flawed past or of him winning. Does this race seem like a referendum on whether this kind of political scandal matters to Democratic voters in an era when Republicans seem to have abandoned morality tests for some of their most high-profile candidates?

[Lisa Lair]: I might look at it slightly differently. The 2028 presidential election will start the moment the midterm elections are over. And people are already using this race and other key races around the country to advance their theories of what it's going to take to win in 28. And I think no matter what happens, the result in Maine is going to fuel arguments about who the next presidential candidate should be. So if Platner wins, you are going to see a lot of the more progressive Democrats who have rallied to him, who have embraced his candidacy, say this is the path forward. We need more candidates who are speaking out boldly on Medicare for all, on confronting the oligarchy, on taking a a much harder line uh toward Israel, for example, and you know, arguing that that finding candidates maybe from outside the traditional system, that that's the way to connect with disaffected voters, in particular, working-class voters.

[Katie Glick]: If he loses, uh, the recriminations are going to be extraordinary. more moderate Democrats will say this is exactly why you don't nominate someone who in their view is too far left, someone who has far too much personal baggage. We need to go with someone who has been far more vetted and experienced. So no matter the outcome, this race and its outcome is going to be a microcosm of the Democratic fights to come over the real future of the party, which I think will not be decided until 28.

[Natalie Kitroof]: You're saying Democrats may very well take the result in Maine as a verdict not just on Platner but on what they should do in 2028 in the national election.

[Katie Glick]: Right.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Basically what you're saying is that this Platner Collins race and what Democrats ultimately draw from it is reflective of something that we as a country have been grappling with. this rethinking of what we want from our political leaders. President Trump represented this huge shift for the Republican party, someone who's an outsider who'd never been elected to anything, who can easily connect with regular people because he reflects raw anger that voters have. And now the Democrats are grappling with something very similar. It's a different flavor of that. But that is at its core the dilemma. What do we actually need our politicians, our leaders, our representatives to be for us?

[Lisa Lair]: I think that's right. I I think the country is going through a period of rethinking what kind of experience they want their political leaders to have and also what kind of things that were traditionally seen as political baggage they're willing to accept. And we're at a moment where the country and voters on both sides are re-evaluating how they view both experience and baggage. And I think this main race is testing in a really big, really high-profile way how much Democratic primary voters are willing to prioritize someone that they feel authentically represents them over things they may not like about the person or even questions of their personal character.

[Natalie Kitroof]: Well, Lisa, Katie, thank you both so much.

[Lisa Lair]: Thank you.

[Katie Glick]: Thanks for having us.

[Natalie Kitroof]: We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know. Today, a US Army Apache helicopter gunship went down near the straight of Hormuz on Monday and the two crew members were safely rescued according to two people briefed on the incident. It wasn't immediately clear whether the Apache was shot down by Iranian fire, experienced mechanical failure, or ran into some other problem. The incident came after days of ups and downs in the fighting in the Middle East as Israel and Iran exchanged military strikes before stepping back. The Trump administration had not disclosed news of the downed helicopter by the time the New York Times reached out to the White House for comment on Monday night. Today's episode was produced by Caitlyn O'Keefe, Nina Feldman, Asta Chathurvedy, and Chris Benderev with help from Alex Young. It was edited by MJ Davis Lynn, and Paige Cowat, and contains music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marian Lozano. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the daily. I'm Natalie Ketro. See you tomorrow.