Nam Kiwanuka: You're listening to Mistreated. I'm Nam Kiwanuka. The following conversation is about pregnancy loss. Please listen with care. Many of us still live in a culture where the happy news of pregnancy can carry secrecy and anxiety. At times, friends or medical professionals may advise expectant mothers to consider not sharing their pregnancy news until after the first trimester. The risk of miscarriage usually decreases at the end of that 12 weeks. A miscarriage is the loss of a pregnancy before 20 weeks. If a fetal death is experienced after, it's considered to be a still birth. An estimated eight out of a thousand pregnancies end in still birth. For those who have experienced a miscarriage or a still birth, the joy of welcoming a child into the world can quickly turn into a nightmare of loss and isolation. And the stats of women and birthing parents who experience child loss this way are staggering.

Nam Kiwanuka: Approximately 15% to 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. 80% of pregnancy loss happens in the first trimester. And quote, when unrecognized early losses are included, the miscarriage rate may be as high as 30% to 60% of all pregnancies. According to a 2021 study from The Lancet, an estimated 23 million miscarriages occur every year worldwide, translating to 44 pregnancy losses each minute. Many women experience pregnancy loss at home, the emergency room, or even abortion clinics, often alone in those moments of great uncertainty and fear.

Nam Kiwanuka: That's why last year the Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists of Canada or the SOGC released a new clinical practice guideline on early pregnancy loss. This guideline called for quote broader health system reforms with recommendations to increase resources and take specific concrete actions to make care for women who lose a pregnancy more responsive, compassionate, and patient centered. That need is clear. The society noted that up to 30% of patients who lose a pregnancy present with adverse mental health outcomes. The SOGC suggests early pregnancy assessment clinics can help. If they're established across Canada, women won't have to seek aid in the ER where the care and the environment might not be suitable for someone who is experiencing pregnancy loss. For many in rural areas who can't even access ERs, pregnancy clinics could be a lifeline.

Nam Kiwanuka: Worldwide, there's growing recognition of just how distressing losing a pregnancy can be. Early pregnancy clinics have been available in Britain since the 1990s, and there are now over 200 clinics. India was the first country in the world to offer leave from work following a miscarriage. And in 2021, New Zealand passed legislation that gave paid bereavement leave for both parents. The Philippines also offers bereavement leave for women who've miscarried or experienced still birth. As of April 2026, Northern Ireland will become one of the first jurisdictions in Europe to offer paid leave to parents impacted by miscarriage. Here in Canada, as of December 2025, employees in federally regulated workplaces can take bereavement leave after pregnancy loss.

Nam Kiwanuka: There's a bit of good news here in Ontario, too. North York General Hospital has a clinic dedicated to early pregnancy care. On today's episode, we speak to Eelina Leandro about her personal motivations for her documentary, An Open Conversation, which aims to destigmatize pregnancy and infant loss. We talk about how the silence around pregnancy loss impacts women, why mothers blame themselves, and how the health care system fails to support grieving families. Please listen with care. Eelina joins me now.

Eelina Leandro: Hi, I'm Eelina Leandro. I'm a actor and filmmaker.

Nam Kiwanuka: So nice to have you on the podcast, Eelina.

Eelina Leandro: Thank you for inviting me. Um what we're going to talk about is a difficult topic and this documentary you were working on it um six seven years ago.

Nam Kiwanuka: Yes.

Nam Kiwanuka: And I just want you to go at your pace. Um if you want us to stop, we can stop. Um your story is yours. It's not ours. So I just wanted to let you know that.

Eelina Leandro: Thank you.

Nam Kiwanuka: Um you directed An Open Conversation, a documentary about pregnancy loss. This is a conversation that's often time uh difficult to have in private and hardly ever in public. Why did you want to do this project?

Eelina Leandro: Um so I did a documentary uh about female graffiti artists before I went and did an open conversation. And during that documentary, it took me six years and I had five pregnancies. My first pregnancy was amazing. I have my beautiful daughter. Um the before after that was not so good. Uh I had four miscarriages.

Eelina Leandro: Um I went through a lot of mental health challenges. Uh a very hard time trying to understand what was happening to me uh and being a mom at the same time and being a wife and all that stuff. And um I just thought to myself, well, nobody talks about this. This needs to be an open conversation. It it happens too often. I would sometimes speak to somebody, they were like, oh, I had two miscarriages. And I'm like, really? They're like, yeah. Or my mom had one or my aunt had one. So, I really thought it was uh an important topic to to talk about. And that's what prompted me to do more research and get it started.

Nam Kiwanuka: And what did you find along the way?

Eelina Leandro: I found along the way that um I wasn't the only person who was being ignored. Um made to feel guilty or not understand that this is something that happens in uh one to four one to five um pregnancies. um it is extremely common and uh I was getting an overwhelming response of people who wanted to talk about it.

Eelina Leandro: Um and I also found that no one was getting support. Doctors weren't telling people that they had options to speak to someone or um giving proper medical advice or even treating people with respect and um dignity I would say when it happens cuz I think medical professionals are so desensitized because it is so common that when it happens to someone they're just kind of brush it off and I I think society does that too. I think it's just very common. You don't tell people you're pregnant for the first 3 months. And why is that? You know, nobody says it. Nobody talks about it, but they know. They just want to make sure that the pregnancy is going to stick. Um,

Eelina Leandro: and then if you do speak about it, you're going to have and you have a miscarriage or lose the baby, you're going to have to tell everyone what happened. and nobody wants to talk about it.

Nam Kiwanuka: But if you don't say that you're It's interesting what you just said, that secrecy around when the pregnancy is in its early stages for you not to say anything, that doesn't change the fact that you are pregnant.

Eelina Leandro: Exactly.

Nam Kiwanuka: So whether you share it or not, if you do lose the baby, you have to grieve in private.

Eelina Leandro: Absolutely.

Nam Kiwanuka: So as if the pregnancy never happened.

Eelina Leandro: Absolutely. and only your husband knows or your partner knows or your family knows. Sometimes your family doesn't even know and uh a lot of people I think now is different but before nobody okay it happened and a lot of people's attitudes were like especially in the first 3 months was just a fetus not even you know 6 weeks 8 weeks it's okay you could have another you know and that's that's not what you want to hear. Um,

Eelina Leandro: and it's hard, you know, it's different for men and women. Obviously, men feel sad too that they lost a child. Um, the potential of having a child. Uh, but women carry it. As soon as you're pregnant, you have symptoms. I know for me, I did. Some women might not, but you know, I knew as soon as I was pregnant, I never had issues getting pregnant. I had issues keeping the baby. Um,

Eelina Leandro: and even, you know, it's like, okay, you know, when I would tell people I'm doing a documentary about pregnancy loss, especially men would just be like a literal, [sighs and gasps] you know, and then like they change a topic.

Nam Kiwanuka: That speaks to the stigma because you kind of don't want to talk about it as if it doesn't exist. But in my where I'm from, there's a bit of like you're jinxing it. There's a little bit of like

Eelina Leandro: superstition. Yes. My Yes. Like don't say anything, you might jinx it or what? But yeah, I mean that's

Nam Kiwanuka: where do you think the stigma comes from?

Eelina Leandro: I I I don't know. I don't I just feel that women women's health women's mental health is always brushed under the carpet. It's never to be spoken about. you didn't even speak about periods with your children, you know, it's it's like, oh my god, don't talk about your period, never mind a miscarriage. And um it really depends on uh how also traumatic I mean either way it's traumatic. Uh some I know you know I know met a couple of women are just like I miscarried what then moved on that's fine. I you know I

Eelina Leandro: really do believe that I had postpartum depression. No one um told me that that would kind of happen cuz even though I when I miscarried I'm like well I didn't do full term so I'm not going to have that. Um also I was a new mom and I couldn't I didn't have time to grieve. if I couldn't be sad in front of my daughter which I was a lot of times and then you know when I was seeking went to my doctor um she's like oh maybe you just need to like have some wine or relax or what have you and then I'd go back to her again and be like I think it's a little more than that um so when I was speaking to different women about their experiences everyone had different experiences but the one thing that everyone had in common was the uh mistreatment of or the um ignoring of the mental health as aspect.

Nam Kiwanuka: I think it just makes people uncomfortable.

Eelina Leandro: But this is the thing. And so why do I have to be made small for you to be comfortable? Because if this was an open conversation, people wouldn't be uncomfortable with it.

Nam Kiwanuka: When you had the first miscarriage, you had your daughter was a toddler or she was

Eelina Leandro: Yes, my daughter was like one and a half.

Nam Kiwanuka: So, you've had that connection with your baby.

Eelina Leandro: Mhm.

Nam Kiwanuka: You can smell them, you can feel them, you can touch them. And to experience miscarriage after you've had a baby, devastating. And then if you're pregnant for the first time and you have a miscarriage, that is your introduction to motherhood.

Eelina Leandro: Absolutely.

Nam Kiwanuka: But you're not acknowledged as being a mother. Absolutely. And that that's something that was spoken about as well.

Eelina Leandro: It's I've I've spoken to women who've had like seven, eight miscarriages, uh pregnancies, never been a mom, but on Mother's Day, they never say happy Mother's Day or acknowledge that they're mothers. You know, it's hard to it's hard to be pregnant, know that you're pregnant, and you're giving life. feel life growing inside of you no matter how where you are in that trimester and then lose your pregnancy and uh still birth is even worse. It's after 20 weeks. Miscarriage is before 20 weeks. Still birth is after 20 weeks and you're giving birth to um an a a baby who is not alive.

Eelina Leandro: So I don't think people really understand what that does to you if you don't if you have not gone through it. And even in my first pregnancy uh my second pregnancy it was I lost uh the baby at around 6 weeks but I had gone to my 8w week ultrasound and there was no heartbeat and I knew from my first pregnancy that there would be. So I'm like how come we're not hearing the heart and um the radiologist didn't want to tell me. So he's like I think you should go speak to your doctor. So, she told me over the phone. I went to the doctor and um it didn't pass naturally. And

Eelina Leandro: the hospital, they don't consider um having a DNC is what it's called, important enough to make an appointment for you in the hospital. They make you wait until it passes and um sometimes it doesn't in my case. So, I spent a couple of weeks knowing that I had a dead fetus inside me and I couldn't take it out. So, I was told by my doctor to go to an abortion clinic.

Eelina Leandro: So, I went to an abortion clinic to get a DNC done. And then when I was there, they looked at me and said, "At your age, why don't you want this child?"

Nam Kiwanuka: I'm so sorry.

Eelina Leandro: I'm like, "The child didn't want me. And even if I was there for an abortion, how can you say that to someone?" So this is the kind of thing that women are going through. And in the second pregnancy loss, it also didn't happen naturally. So I had to go to another abortion clinic and get a DNC done because they didn't recognize that this was an a severe enough issue for you to go to a hospital and get it done with a doctor.

Eelina Leandro: So then I this is when I started you know if I'm getting treated like this um who else is so on top of feeling alone because you feel that your body has failed you you're incapable you you you feel like a failure. You don't even have anyone around you to give you support.

Nam Kiwanuka: Where does that blame come from? Because a few women that you spoke to felt that blame. You felt that blame.

Nam Kiwanuka: Why did you blame yourself?

Eelina Leandro: Well, I think it because I'm I'm the one carrying the baby. We're the ones who carry the baby. It's, you know, we we are the the lifegivers. So, we're supposed to be nurturing this human being uh made inside of us. We're supposed to be giving it nutrients and vitamins for it to to grow into this healthy child.

Eelina Leandro: you can't even carry it to term. So, you know, and um me and my husband have, okay, we're going to have like two, three kids, you know, you always dream about having this family and um then it doesn't happen. And then growing up, my daughter would always be like, "Oh, I wish I had a brother or sister." Um,

Eelina Leandro: and and it just makes you feel like you're you're you did something wrong.

Nam Kiwanuka: But you know, you're not to blame.

Eelina Leandro: Yes, I know that now. I know that now. But it took a lot of work and a lot of uh

Eelina Leandro: a lot of uh mental anguish and and I'm going to be honest um you know I I smoked a lot of cannabis. I then in the between uh miscarriages, I had a herniated disc and and that's when I got into opioids. So, I knew I wasn't in pain, but I'm going to take an opioid anyway cuz it makes me feel better.

Nam Kiwanuka: You're self soothing.

Eelina Leandro: And uh then during CO, it was just like, okay. Um, it's like it never So, my last miscarriage happened exactly 10 years ago, but you never stop feeling that. You just go through it. You

Nam Kiwanuka: You said in the documentary that your fourth when you got pregnant again, you actually were you you [clears throat] thought about having an abortion.

Eelina Leandro: Oh, yeah.

Nam Kiwanuka: Why?

Eelina Leandro: I I [gasps] so after the I mean even after the first I I couldn't have so after the third uh miscarriage I my husband and I uh just agreed that we're not going to try anymore. this is we're just going to accept the fact that we have one beautiful, healthy, miracle child and um I adore her and I don't want to risk my health um to have another child. A couple weeks later, I found out I was pregnant.

Eelina Leandro: uh [sighs] something that was supposed to be so happy was devastating. I couldn't imagine going through another pregnancy that didn't happen. I thought about having an abortion. I just didn't think I could do it. And then I thought, well, maybe this is the miracle. Maybe this isn't the rainbow baby. Maybe this is happening without trying because it's supposed to happen.

Eelina Leandro: Um, and it was my longest pregnancy. It was still within the third the first term. It was my longest pregnancy, but it was also the worst miscarriage. Um, and because I had my daughter, um, my mom also wasn't around. My sister lived elsewhere. It was just the three of us. I had to go to the hospital by myself.

Eelina Leandro: And, uh, that was that one was the most traumatizing one because that one happened naturally. I was on we were me and my husband were talking about the baby and lo and behold I start getting cramps and um then I started going into contractions and um I passed the baby in the toilet and I went hysterical and my husband flushed it and I even went more hysterical and that's a very common thing

Nam Kiwanuka: cuz you can't even touch

Eelina Leandro: and women feel guilty also for that and I didn't even understand what was happening until I was sitting in the hospital or lying in the hospital by myself and I like, "Oh my god, I how can anyone not think that doesn't affect someone's mental health? And how can there not be enough support out there? Which which there is. And I want to tell people who are watching this, if you are going through um miscarriage or still birth or infant loss, you do have support. Uh in Toronto, there's a place called Pale P A I L, which is the pregnancy and infant loss support out of Sunnybrook. There's also um the pregnancy loss and infant uh loss support group in Calgary. There's plenty right now, but they're not talked about.

Eelina Leandro: They're not Your doctor doesn't be like, "Hey, go and do this." I mean, there might be some, but I mean, during the time, and I find it now, it's it's um you know, only in the 2020s are countries now um giving women leave for miscarriages. You sent me the uh the article about that. Canada just did this in December 2025. Northern Ireland is doing this in April. Portugal did this in 2023. Indonesia, Philippines, other places like that have leaves. But this has all been happening in the

Nam Kiwanuka: past. Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit about how doctors react in those moments because most times and we will talk a little bit about what's happening the changes that are happening in Canada. Um in the documentary uh there were there was a mom um mourning the loss of her baby and one mom recalls that her doctor called her baby this uh a doctor told another mom to wait until it uh to pass meaning the baby. And another mom who was crying after her uh child died was was told that quote you need to leave now you're going to make the other moms upset. What needs to change in medicine and how doctors treat women who are experiencing pregnancy loss?

Eelina Leandro: I think there needs to be more of a sensitivity and an understanding that we're not medical professionals and understand that this is something that happens. Um, we're emotional beings. We're pregnant. We have a child growing in us and when we lose that child it's um devastating. I it's they they talk about pregnancy loss like they talk about a dinner that they're having. It's it's nonchalant. It's it's uh it's hush hush. You don't want to upset the other people or I I just think there needs to be a different narrative. There needs to be more sensitivity.

Eelina Leandro: And I will say one thing, the last miscarriage that I had, I went to Mount Sinai. Mount Sinai was the only place that I had a nurse and the doctors be sensitive to me in my situation. And I don't know if it was just because that particular day or if I got the right nurse to speak to me, but they were the only ones who didn't rush me out of the emergency waiting room. They didn't, you know, they sat down and spoke to me and and said sorry and wanted to hear what I had to say. Um and and I yeah I just think there needs to be more sensitivity to the fact that we're not a doctor. [laughter] We're we're going through something very emotional and that there should be uh more understanding especially because you're a doctor and you know that this happens often.

Eelina Leandro: Um, one of the changes, so in June of 2025, Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists of Canada released new national guidelines in the treatment for those who have experienced pregnancy loss. Um, and one of those was to have pregnancy clinics or centers. So instead of going to an ER setting where doctors, yes, they're moving fast, they're trying to uh life, uh they're dealing with emergencies, maybe they don't have the time to stop. And

Nam Kiwanuka: um so having these pregnancy clinics, it makes me think that why don't we have that already?

Eelina Leandro: Exactly. Why don't why don't we and why is it that there's not uh urgency? For example, when the miscarriage doesn't happen naturally and you have to sit and wait for weeks with your dead fetus inside your body.

Nam Kiwanuka: What does that what does that do to a person?

Eelina Leandro: Every day you're thinking,

Nam Kiwanuka: I'm so sorry.

Eelina Leandro: You think about it every day. Is it gonna when's it going to come out again? It's it's this why isn't my body working properly? Why isn't this, you know, um and why isn't someone making sure that this gets out of me as soon as possible so I'm not thinking? It's just it's it's uh it's sickening actually.

Nam Kiwanuka: It's torture.

Eelina Leandro: It's literal torture. Um and that you have to go somewhere where people choose um to terminate their pregnancies which is I to me you do whatever you want to do but why I'm not choosing that. I didn't choose that. So why do I have to go somewhere and do you know what I mean? And these these places should um yeah it's just This is a mental like for you to be

Nam Kiwanuka: people are allowed to do what they want to do with their bodies. But if you're experiencing a pregnancy loss and you're asked you're being asked to be in the same place where someone is seeking an abortion and you're trying to hold on to your baby, the mental like the mental toll that does on a person, never mind what's happening to your body, but your

Eelina Leandro: Yeah. Why isn't the mental considered as part of the physical health?

Nam Kiwanuka: Exactly. And and you know, this is why I wanted to make the documentary, make it in a conversation and speak about it. Why I feel like women's mental health or women's health in general is just like we're not we're not important enough. We're supposed to be moms. We're supposed to deal with this. this is your role in society, you know, and it it it just needs to change.

Nam Kiwanuka: And that's where the shame comes from.

Eelina Leandro: Well, because if you can't do that

Nam Kiwanuka: Yeah.

Eelina Leandro: then what's [snorts] Yeah.

Nam Kiwanuka: I was um really surprised to learn from your documentary that 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. And the numbers are hard to track since most occur before pregnancy is known. and that 10 to 20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. Why is there so little known about this?

Eelina Leandro: So, my third miscarriage, the reason why I knew I was pregnant was because I had been pregnant three times prior and I did a pregnancy test and I was positive. Two weeks later, I started to bleed and I miscarried. However, if I didn't know, I could have just passed it as an early period. So, when you're so early in your pregnancy, some women don't even realize that they're pregnant or um I I again, I knew because I had three pregnancies before that. I know my body like I can tell them to beat when I'm pregnant. Some women don't know and it's really hard to to know and most women think it's just a period, but they're actually misaring.

Eelina Leandro: Um, and it's hard to figure that out because some people don't want to get pregnant, don't know they're pregnant, don't say they're pregnant, they don't say it to their doctor. So, it's harder to figure that out. Um, when you're further along, you don't have a a period for a long time, you figure out you're pregnant, and then you misaryry, it's much easier to track. Um, but a lot of women have been pregnant, didn't know about it, thought it was a period, and actually miscarried. And that's why it's so hard to to track it.

Nam Kiwanuka: Just it's I guess it's it's a common thing. It's something that happens.

Eelina Leandro: It's common. Yes. Um, but I didn't really know my body, and I'm I'm ashamed to say this to you, to [laughter] say this out loud, but I didn't know, um, until I was pregnant, uh, what that the baby was in the uterus, not in my stomach, because I just didn't learn. I was never taught about my body.

Nam Kiwanuka: Yeah.

Eelina Leandro: And I don't think a lot of us are taught about no

Nam Kiwanuka: our bodies. So, we don't really know until

Nam Kiwanuka: we're in that situation. Because even if you have when you do the birthing classes, they never talk about pregnancy loss. No.

Eelina Leandro: So then when you experience the pregnancy loss,

Eelina Leandro: you're compounded with so much more grief or like all the things cuz you're already thinking that it's going to end up one way and then it doesn't because again we just don't talk about it.

Eelina Leandro: We don't. And And it's I feel kind of um sad that I know so much now about it. And because I I don't understand why it's not spoken about, but when I see someone who's pregnant or when I see someone giving birth, I always say, "Thank you, universe, for that baby to be born." because I don't think anyone understood that that's a miracle.

Nam Kiwanuka: It's a miracle. Some women have five, six, seven babies without a problem. That's a miracle. Most women or a lot of women cannot do that. Some women can't even have Never mind. Speaking of women who've gone through IVF treatment, are constantly getting pregnant and miscarrying like you know it it nobody speaks about that. And also um something I wanted to speak to to about is the LGBTQ plus community who also suffer and do this and and nobody has space for them and no there's so many different situations that people are in that have pregnancy loss and there's no space for them to talk about it. Um, so, so yeah, it's it's changing, but it's not changing fast enough.

Nam Kiwanuka: We just see that picture of the vaginal birth.

Eelina Leandro: Yeah.

Nam Kiwanuka: Baby, perfect breastfeeding.

Eelina Leandro: Yeah. And I think, you know, I think maybe they don't want to talk about it to bring like a negative, you know, what have you. But even during my first pregnancy, I was 16 weeks. I started bleeding. I went to the hospital. They told me the baby was fine. They say sometimes this happens. I was never told of the possibility of having a miscarriage.

Eelina Leandro: Then I had my baby. Then, and this is what other women were speaking to, nobody I never thought, well, my I had a baby. Why would I have a miscarriage? Everything went fine. Why why would this happen? you know, so there's not enough education about it. Um, and I think the problem is people are scared

Nam Kiwanuka: to talk about women's health,

Eelina Leandro: [gasps and laughter] which is Yeah.

Nam Kiwanuka: cuz it's not going to change what's happening to those women in silence. Um, looking back on your experiences and the women that you spoke to for your documentary, what do you think is missing in how women are treated after experiencing pregnancy loss?

Eelina Leandro: telling them that there's support, education of what they can do next, how they can um feel better, talk to someone. Um what happens to your body? One thing I really learned was, you know, I I was like, "Oh, I feel like a failure my body, but my body is amazing." And sometimes we need to realize that some some people miscarriage be misaryry because they do have medical um issues. Some people miscarried just because the pregnancy wasn't viable and we don't talk about that. We don't educate people on that. So, I think after someone has a miscarriage, instead of just shoeing them away and being like, uh, it's okay, you could have another one or, you know, try again in a few months, um, there needs to be more education, more support. Give them the resources of where they can go and get this support.

Eelina Leandro: um you know cuz sometimes a lot of women even in their families don't have support. They have oldfashioned parents or old fashioned partners be like okay get on with it blah blah blah you know I was very lucky um I have support from my family my partner and um even my daughter because when she got to about seven or eight years old I told her what happened.

Nam Kiwanuka: You did. How did you How did you receive it?

Eelina Leandro: She hugged me and she said, "It's okay, Mommy."

Nam Kiwanuka: Kids are amazing.

Eelina Leandro: She's amazing. I really I if I didn't have her, I I think it would be a lot worse. Um, yeah. So, I think women need to to have the support out there and [clears throat] people need to people need to understand that it's not, you know, an every, you know, I don't know. It's

Nam Kiwanuka: it's not a paper cut.

Eelina Leandro: Yeah. It's you know,

Nam Kiwanuka: it's a loss.

Eelina Leandro: Yeah.

Nam Kiwanuka: Part of yourself.

Eelina Leandro: Yeah. you lose part and I and um I facilitated a little bit at uh the Pale network and I did a lot of training and um men and women process grief differently especially this kind of grief men aren't carrying the baby you don't have a special connect connection your body is not changing your hormones aren't you So, so it takes a lot longer for uh the person who is experiencing the the physical loss to deal with it mentally. And there also needs to be education in that cuz I I saw a lot of couples coming in and sometimes you you need the the education for your partner to understand what you're going through as well.

Eelina Leandro: Mhm. Um I had um I have a cousin who had um whose baby was still born and her body after at the funeral she was lactating

Eelina Leandro: and there's just there's no better way to that's part of you still there and [clears throat] but it's not. I uh and my I've had two very good friends had still births at six months and um I asked I actually asked them to be on my documentary and uh he was just like I can't

Nam Kiwanuka: but what was it like for you to sit and listen and hold space for all these moms and why you are also navigating that because it's like

Nam Kiwanuka: it it's so raw.

Eelina Leandro: It was um in a way it was very soothing to me because I realized that I wasn't alone. And um but on the other hand it was also very mentally challenging and heavy and I wanted to give space for everyone and I would never till this day if someone wants to talk to me about it I am open and I I do I I talk about this openly. Um, I I I don't believe in pushing anyone away if they want to speak about it. I wanted to give everyone the space they needed to speak about it because I know that's what I needed. Um, but I I would I would lie if I didn't say that it it became a very heavy heavy weight uh to carry and

Eelina Leandro: co shut down my production and I I take that as a sign cuz I it was getting very even one of my crew didn't express to me that um she had also had a loss boss and I was like why didn't you tell me [gasps] cuz nobody talks about why and they keep everything a secret and they hold that right. So, um, it just got to the point that I had to take whatever footage I had, still give voice to the women that I promised a voice and that I wanted them their story to be told, uh, and then just let it let it go. But I will always advocate for women's mental health, especially during pregnancy loss.

Nam Kiwanuka: Well, thank you for doing the documentary. Thank you for being on the podcast. I know it's a lot to ask and I appreciate you making the time to speak with us. Is there anything that I missed that you would like to add?

Eelina Leandro: Uh, no. Oh, yes. Um, the documentary is on my website. It's a filmcompany.ssquare.net. You can see uh the documentary there. Um, and also I know you're going to have those support groups um, for people to go to. Um, and please just anybody who's listening to this, you're not alone. You can get support and talk about it because the worst thing you can do is push it down. It will come up 10 times 100 times worse. You need to go through it. Um, and doesn't mean that it's going to disappear. You're always going to have those feelings, but you're going to know how to deal with them instead of just exploding or just going through a breakdown

Nam Kiwanuka: and know that you're not alone.

Eelina Leandro: Exactly.

Nam Kiwanuka: We'll share all that in the show notes. Thanks again, Adelina.

Eelina Leandro: Thank you for your time.

Nam Kiwanuka: Thank you so much for having me.

Nam Kiwanuka: This was Mistreated. Thanks for listening. You can follow our show wherever you download your podcast so that you can get notified each time a new episode is available. We would love to hear your feedback. [music] You can write me an email at mistreatedodcast.org or reach out to me on social media. We have a YouTube comment from our episode on medical misogyny in endromeosis care. The one thing I kept saying to doctors was this. It doesn't benefit me to be incapacitated. I live alone. There is no sympathy to gain. I am young and should be out camping, fishing, playing my fiddle, enjoying life. I do empathize with this woman's story and wonder how many millions of women can relate. Thank you for telling your slash our story. Thanks so much for that comment. I'm glad the episode resonated with you. This week's episode was produced by Matthew Omera, Tiff Lamb, and me. Edited by Colin Kish. Digital shorts by Ariana Longley. Camera work by Max Stussy. [music] Teleprompting by Alisa Verley. Production support from Jonathan Hallowell and TVO's digital media services team. Lorie F is the executive producer of digital. John Ferry [music] is vice president programming and content. Thanks so much for listening.