Steve: Steve, I'm going to start with you. We just heard from pollster Shachi Kurl on Canadians fear growing fear of crime. And I'm wondering, from a psychologist point of view, whether it makes sense for Canadians to be afraid of crime.

Jennifer: Yeah, I think what we're seeing also is a very much an internalization of all the threat we're all feeling from all sides now, right? We've got the environmental stuff, we've got geopolitical stuff. Our our brain just sort of reacts to threat. In fact, it's it's got special systems just to look for threat and to get us ready for it. And those systems are kind of engaged like never before now. And we have this sort of chronic stress. And when that happens, you know, things like crime which would always be perceived as as threatening but probably are perceived as more threatening, more likely to happen than they typically would. So I think the environment is really contributing to this perception we're having.

Steve: Jennifer, as we learned in our last segment, the stats show crime has come down a bit in the last year. So why doesn't that seem to resonate with people?

Jennifer: I think because it's in our faces all the time in social media. Back in the day, we only saw news when it happened on the hour, usually in the evening news, and now we see it at our fingertips whenever we want, so people feel like it's always there and they see it happening, and they almost resonate with the individuals who are also experiencing it, which then causes that increased feel of fear in their lives.

Jennifer: Yeah. And if I may just add to that quickly to the design of social media is to grab eyeballs. And we are attracted to things that are scary. And so it's not just that we're all getting our news from social media. There's a bias in social media to present this scary stuff to us.

Steve: Jennifer, I do want to ask, you know, in terms of the types of crimes that we're seeing, and I'm hoping you can maybe go back to, you know, your time on the front lines as well. But the types of crimes that we're seeing and that we're seeing on social media that we're seeing, you know, on our 6:00 news, it feels like it's more personal that, you know, these are much closer to home when we see home invasions, when we're seeing, you know, carjackings, does any of that resonate as well?

Jennifer: I would say yes.

Jennifer: And the fear of being broken into is greater for people, especially when it's happening. What, like in rural Alberta, it is actually on the increase property crime. And when an individual experiences property crime, they feel violated and then they feel fearful in their own home when they're supposed to feel safe. And I know as a police officer, we encountered a lot of drug crime, mental health. And my colleague and I are actually doing a study on police officers experiences with the increased drug crimes and homelessness, and they're finding that police officers are experiencing that at a greater rate, and people are becoming more violent. And a lot of it is actually happening with stranger crime, even though it's not as prevalent as known crime, it still creates that sense of fear in people.

Steve: Jennifer, I want to stick with you when you talk about sort of the rural when we think of crime, it's often associated with big cities. But as you mentioned, the project that you're working on and sort of want to get a sense of rural areas, are people just as fearful of crime living in where you are, say, in rural Alberta versus, say, Edmonton or Calgary?

Jennifer: Absolutely. And I actually am the chair of the police committee in rural Alberta here. And there is an increase in property crime. And the RCMP have noted that. And interestingly, starting in 2023, they've seen an increase in violent crime. A lot of it is associated with domestic violence. So the offenders are known to the victim. But a lot of the drug issues are moving to rural Alberta, which from the urban areas and they're breaking into people's homes, which is creating an increased fear. And because the RCMP are often 15, 20 minutes, hours away from helping somebody, there is that fear that they're not going to be able to be saved if they catch an intruder in the action.

Steve: Yeah, and I really want to follow up upon that. You know, those personal crimes like the home invasion is the prototypical because it's not just like, imagine when we sit and watch the news, we see a bunch of things that we don't think really, you know, another tow truck is on fire and they're. And what are these tow truck people doing? But it doesn't really feel personal to us. The home invasions, do. You know, we can kind of feel that. And as a result, we're more likely to remember those stories. And when we estimate the probabilities of events, one of the things we use is something called the availability heuristic. How quickly can we bring to mind examples of that event. And these home invasions come to mind pretty quickly. So they're probably having a disproportionate impact on on how we all, you know, figure out how likely is this. And we probably think it's far more likely than it is.

Steve: Help us understand a little bit in terms of the brain. You know, when we see these videos on social media, when we see these videos on the news, what what is our instinct? What are we doing? Is it I think we've had a lot of conversation of, you know, here in Canada about, you know, what laws we can do as homeowners to protect ourselves. There is this, you know, when we talk about the, you know, the fear, there's the flight, there is the freeze. Help us understand sort of how the brain is working when when I am watching a video of a smash and grab on social media.

Jennifer: Yeah, yeah. So really, every sensory bit of information that comes into the brain goes through these little things called the amygdala, a little almond shaped part of our brain on either side. And the amygdala's job is to sense danger. It's there to keep us alive. And when it detects something threatening and threat is in a very general sense, it doesn't have to be somebody with a baseball bat. It could be an embarrassment or social, you know, threats. They'll kick in this fight, flight freeze system in social media. You know, freeze doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Flee. I wish a lot more people were fleeing social media than they are. They're not. So what does that leave you? It leaves you. Fight and fight in social media really means to share, to kind of let people know, hey, here's this danger. And so that's another amplification. Now, something that scares you, you're more likely to share. And that's going to make it more prevalent for everybody else.

Steve: Jennifer, when we see people doing, for example, hard drugs on the street or someone having a mental health episode in public, what does that do to our sense of safety?

Jennifer: Well, it creates a greater level of fear, because oftentimes you feel helpless, and because a lot of cities and areas across Canada are having less police officers, they feel that that safety element isn't always readily available to them. And I can personally say that I used to work downtown Calgary, and it wasn't as bad as it is now. And I know that when I'm walking in downtown Calgary, I mean, you see homeless individuals, you see drug people like people whacked out on whether it's meth or whatever it is. And it is it's frightening because they become confrontational. And a lot of times people don't know how to react in those situations.

Steve: Yeah. And even when they don't become confrontational, the brain naturally is fearful of things we don't understand very well. And those could be people's we don't understand very well. But again, when we see, you know, some of these individuals on the street and we don't quite get how they got there, and we don't really understand if they're dangerous or not. You know, a lot a lot of the people experiencing homelessness, for example, are not dangerous at all. But because we don't really understand that it's scary to the brain. The the brain likes to be able to predict how people are going to respond and how people are going to act. When we feel like we don't have that prediction, we're not sure what they're going to do, then they become scary.

Jennifer: You were. Yeah. So I was just going to jump in with the study that we're doing right now. A lot of police officers are actually saying that the homeless population are fearful for their lives because they're they're living in tent cities. They're living in areas where they don't feel safe and they have nowhere else to go. And so that I agree with what Steve is saying is that is absolutely a threatening thing for even those individuals.

Steve: Jennifer, I want to stick with you. You were a police officer with Calgary Police Services for 14 years. You had mentioned sort of the shortage of police officers is having more visible police presence, a potential answer to addressing people's fears?

Jennifer: Absolutely. And in Calgary here, the chief of police actually had our sheriffs or our provincial police service partner with the Calgary police, and all they did was walk around downtown Calgary talking to people, dealing with the crime element and the level of safety that resulted in that initiative was amazing. And I think that is actually why the Calgary police put in a foot patrol in downtown Calgary, because individuals working in the high rises were feeling less safe, and so having more boots on the ground and visible, police can actually give individuals that level of safety.

Steve: What about people who have or communities rather that have a poor relationship with police? Jennifer.

Jennifer: In that case, I think it's important and incumbent on the police to interact and engage with those individuals. And I know that the Calgary police and the RCMP as well, they hold community forums which invite individuals that maybe have questions about how the police function if they come from a different country, where the relationship with the police is not a good one, and trying to build those relationships, and I think those are very important. And I would also suggest that people try and do ride alongs so they can see what police actually deal with on a day to day basis and see that it is a difficult job.

Steve: Steve, I imagine for some people, even here in Toronto, for people who take transit, for example, seeing someone in uniform might help them, give them a sense of safety. And I'm just wondering, do you think a greater police presence is the answer, or do we need to address perhaps the root cause of some of these issues?

Jennifer: I mean, when it comes to perceptions, it can be tricky. Obviously we want to be after the root causes. We want to try to reduce crime. But but certainly having police officers around, especially as Jennifer suggests, if you feel comfortable and connected to those officers, if they have that community policing kind of vibe, what that does for us is if we're on the subway and there's some characters that we're a little unsure of again, and we're getting a little scared because we don't know how they're going to act. You know, if there's an officer nearby, we know this is going to sound kind of nasty, but this is how society works. It's their problem, right? If that person starts to get whatever, I don't have to do something about it. Either escape or actually, you know, step in. God forbid many of us would be worried about doing that. So to know, hey, that's their job. When when things start to go wrong, they're going to step in. And that means I don't have to. That's that's a huge level of comfort. And it's what we rely on on officers for every day.

Steve: I do have to ask this question now, Jennifer, you don't obviously speak for any police service right now, specifically the Toronto Police Service, which is one service that got a lot of attention in 2024 when this was at the height of home invasions. I don't know if you had heard the story, but there was a police officer that had suggested that residents leave their car keys at the front of the door to avoid confrontation with thieves. How does messaging sort of play into this? Because one, you know, for for a lot of residents who heard that message, just like Steve said, seeing a police officer might be okay, well, that's now not my problem. It's their problem. But if police are perhaps passing the puck in certain situations, that that safety and that that perception of safety has eroded.

Jennifer: And I'm actually glad you brought that up. I'm well aware of that incident. And among my friends who continue to be police officers, we've discussed that. I disagree with that form of idea. You instead, they should be looking at things like, okay, installing cameras because cameras not only make you feel safer, they help the police determine who may be broke in or is trying to break into their place. Giving them ideas for safety would be a better idea, in my view, than saying, leave your key fob at the front door like it's a kin to saying just leave your door unlocked, right? And say, pretty much, come in and take what you want and you're good. And I think that creates this animosity amongst the public when they see the police are almost passing the buck, like it's not our problem, just let them take what they need and then get on with your life. But like Steve said, and I alluded to, when someone breaks into your home, that's a violation of your personal space, and that creates a level of trauma and fear for a long time after all.

Steve: Right. We have about just under a minute or so, and I want to get a sense if people are feeling anxious about crime in their communities, how should they try to navigate around them?

Steve: I mean, generally, information is great. Jennifer suggested going a ride along. I don't know, can any of us just go on a ride along? It's kind of cool if we can, but but I think, you know, getting a sense of the efforts that the police are making and how you and potentially your neighborhood, you know, you can. We think of old neighborhood watch programs and things like that. But but literally there's a lot of security in that social connection that even comes from reaching out to your neighbours and saying, you know, hey, there's a bit of an issue here. Can can we work together and have eyes on the neighborhood and let each other know if anything seems up? You know, feeling like that's that's part of a community effort I think can help you feel a lot more secure.

Jennifer: Jennifer I would also adding on to that, educating yourself about the court systems and how individuals are released, understanding that process, understanding how police function. And like I go back to seeing how they do their job can go a long way and making society feel safer because they see there actually is processes that are being followed and done.

Steve: We're going to have to leave it there. Jennifer. Steve, really appreciate your insights on this one. Thank you so much.

Jennifer: Thank you, thank you.