Ghee: The energy that we've rediscovered around those spikes where we're all just prototyping and throwing it all into the same place. Momentum begets momentum, and so having the team together riffing and yes-anding and trying the stuff out is really great.

Alex: This feels like pair programming for designers and engineers, and you can work very quickly back and forth using the MCP as a connector here. Often, the codebase gets way ahead of where the actual design file is, and there are states or workflows that just don't exist at all within the design file. So what I can do is say, "Send all five states signup flow to Figma." Now, the agent is going to read my codebase, understand what I'm referring to when I say those five states, and for each one of those, it's going to individually import that one by one into Figma such that the Figma document will then have all of those states laid out all side by side so that my design partner can work against it.

Ghee: It's definitely changed our workflows in a way that it's really blown up what a workflow even is.

Claire Vo: I spend quite a lot of my time just sitting here inside of my terminal now. I often have two, three, up to five maybe cloud code instances running all at the same time, working on different aspects of the work that I'm tracking. Welcome back to How I AI. I'm Claire Vo, product leader and AI obsessive here on a mission to help you build better with these new tools. Today we have Alex, an engineer, and Ghee, a designer from Figma. And they're going to show us the new world and the new workflows of design, code, and back to design. I'm really excited about this one because it's going to show you how more forward-looking teams are thinking about the interplay between design and engineering teams, how designs don't have to be static artifacts, either in Figma or in code. And we're going to get some tips and tricks on how you can use skills in your repo to take away toil both for engineers and for designers. Let's get to it. This episode is brought to you by Optimizely. Most marketing teams aren't short on ideas, but what they are short on is time. And that's exactly what Optimizely Opel gives you back with AI agents that handle real marketing workflows, like creating content and checking compliance, generating experiment variations, personalizing user experiences, analyzing pages for GEO, even tasks like approvals and reporting. It's your AI agent orchestration platform for marketing and digital teams, plugging seamlessly into the tools you already use, handling the boring, busy work, and keeping everything on brand, that leaves marketers with more time to do your actual job. See what Opel can automate for your team by signing up for a free enterprise agentic AI workshop with Optimizely. Find out more at optimizely.com/howiiai. Attend live and you'll get a free pair of Ray-Ban Meta glasses. Welcome to How I AI. Alex, Ghee, I am so psyched for you all to be here because we get to finally answer definitively the question on everyone's mind, which is which comes first, the design or the code. Is that right? Do we get to finally decide that today, or are you going to force us to watch both directions?

Ghee: I think the answer is it depends. So my favorite answer, your favorite answer. And what I love about what Figma is doing right now is it's building the product for every team that has realized it just depends. What are we going to do here? And so I know that your business has to have changed a lot. Your product has to have changed a lot in the last couple years because the way people design and build software now changes so much. And I'm sure that has impact both on how you think about what product you're building, but also how you yourself build products. So I'm curious, how has this shifted how Figma approaches the internal design and development process?

Ghee: I mean, it's definitely changed our workflows in a way that it's really blown up what a workflow even is. Before, for the majority of our careers, we've had a very linear, agreed-upon workflow where you increase fidelity as you go on, because it's really expensive to work in code and it's really cheap just to trade ideas and sketch them out. But AI basically collapsed that, and it's just as cheap to riff in code as it is to riff in design. And so a lot of times where we used to mock up these kind of grayscale wireframes to point at what things should be, we can get functional wireframes straight away. And a lot of times that's what we treat these kind of vibe coded outputs. It's like let me get to something that is more malleable I can play with, and then let me kind of work into it. Let me bring my team in. And we're still like many companies right now trying to figure out what is the best kind of step process. And to Alex's point, it depends. It really depends on the scale of the feature, whether it's a feature or bug or product. Like what are we trying to get to? We find ourselves reinventing a workflow almost every day, multiple times a day depending on the case that we have to solve for.

Claire Vo: What I like about what you said is a couple things. One, I do think up until this point, design and engineering felt very scarce and expensive resources. And so you were always trying to reduce effort and design by doing things like wireframes. And I tell the young people today, they don't know how spoiled they are. You don't know what like Balsamiq is or like those old mockups used to be like, you don't know what we used to have to do with wireframe. So I think we were always trying to figure out that and then we were always like scarcely protecting engineering resources and part of that meant more work fell on the design team to make lots of very specific decisions about design implementation so that you didn't waste engineering's time trying to figure out is this supposed to be a rounded corner, what's the hover effect, what's the error state, all this kind of stuff. And what I do appreciate about AI is now the cost of generating really high quality stuff has gone down, which means you can invest more in the pieces that really matter and then more people can contribute to the ultimate experience in design. And, Alex, I'm sure you feel like you can contribute more and so I think that's an interesting change to how we had historically been doing more of a waterfile style product development process. And to add to that, you also have more exploration capacity because you're not spending so long on one idea, derisking that one idea through meetings and prototypes, etc. If you can shortcut to that, you can explore more ideas. You have more divergence potential. And I think that's really interesting as well. I think we got to like going deep on quality, but we can actually go wide as well.

Alex: Yeah.

Alex: Yeah. I find that I'm spending a lot less time doing like the mechanistic, even on the engineering side, the mechanistic like changing of syntax and trying to thread data through different call sites and more focused on the problem-solving aspects. And I feel like that same focus on problem-solving as opposed to the mechanical work is really what AI is enabling on engineering as well as design teams.

Claire Vo: Awesome. Well, we're going to actually dive in and show some of this not in theory but in practice, and we're going to see design starting in Codeex, which is not what I not what I expected when I dialed into this call today that you all were going to say, "Hey, we're going to start over in Codeex," but that's what we're going to do. So do you want to share your screen and show us what I'm going to call the sandwich of code, which is going to be code, design, code, I think is the process.

Ghee: Love it. Yeah, let's do it. So yeah, we thought we'd start with Codeex because we've just recently launched this as well. We had a launch for Claude. We've just launched on Codeex and we're bringing this kind of MCP functionality to a bunch of stuff. Let me see if I can just go open my local host for this project. Something that happens a lot is the sources of truth diverge between design and code. So sometimes some things only really exist in a state in code. Or you start working with a developer and you really like elevate what the thing was, the artifact that you originally supplied, or sometimes like that just doesn't exist in code. You've just inherited someone else's project from forever forever ago. And so what's really interesting here is that I can just open up a local page. So now we've been working on as a demo app. Alex and I put something together just to show you the power of this. Let's imagine I am working on a thing that there isn't really a coherent source of truth for. It's just a financial tracking app and I really want to do some editing in here. And the case that usually comes up is that yes, I could prompt it for these things, but it's kind of a wish and a hope that it gets it or I have to be super specific or I have to do install a bunch of tools that help me kind of manipulate closer to the material. But what I really want to do here is just ask Codeex to send the budget allocation page to Figma. Got it. So what we're seeing here and I think the problem you're setting up which I can empathize with which is no one ever keeps their Figma up to date with what's the latest in prod and prod rarely has the hopes and dreams of what has been designed in Figma. And a lot of times, even I do this at ChatPD, we've created like a Figma page with a bunch of screenshots and they always go out of date. And so, even for using recent designs in things like marketing assets, not even just the software development process, it's really hard to keep these things in sync because code and design are moving in parallel tracks and there's not a common substrate between them yet, I would say, that can keep them sort of up to date on both sides.

Alex: Exactly. Exactly.

Claire Vo: That's exactly right.

Claire Vo: Great. So then what you're using here, if I tell me if I'm wrong, which is you have the Figma MCP connected to Codeex. So that's a hosted MCP that you've connected. Do you have the Figma skill also installed here in Codeex because I know Codeex has made a big deal about skills and so I'm wondering if you're using those two together.

Ghee: Honestly, at some point I installed all the skills. So I have no doubt that at some point I'm using it. We also have, we're exploring kind of how we improve those. Alex can talk more to those for sure.

Alex: Yeah, you can use the skills in order to do this. But you could also just ask the MCP directly and it seems to pretty reliably get you to a...

Claire Vo: This is really good. So if you actually, I mean, if you look at the page and you look at the comparison kind of side by side...

Ghee: Now I have all of this in Figma. And so not only can I do more intense kind of direct manipulation. I can go in here and I can like move stuff around in a way that's much more free form that perhaps I would have had to like really like express with words and it should be really burdensome and laborious to explain which bits I want to move where and etc. But my whole team can also jump in and now we can just exponentially scale this work versus me solo having to do everything. And when you work in a team it's like really helpful to leverage that. So for those that are listening and maybe not watching the screen share, what we just saw is taking a locally hosted web app and codebase and then using the Figma MCP to then pull the whole design of a page or component into Figma into a frame and then you can just edit that frame. And a benefit that I didn't really think about which is really useful is it's really, Figma is really built for multi-person collaboration, multi-player collaboration in a way that prompting code in something like a Codeex or a Cursor or Cloud Code really isn't built for. And so that broad exploration is very very hard to do. The other thing that I want to say for people is look, I am a true believer, every designer should be in in their IDE playing with GitHub, all that kind of stuff. And also, there are some orgs that just like aren't there yet. There are some designers that aren't there yet that don't have the front-end language, the prompting skills, whatever, that are super pros in Figma. And this is a nice stepping stone to say, "Okay, we can get you back into a place where you're really comfortable with, but also use that as a way to educate, upskill them on how to use some of these more coding tools to also bring their design design skills to bear." And so I think there's a kind of halfway step here that is really useful for folks that are used to a design tool like Figma.

Ghee: For sure. And also to me it's just the I don't think we're there yet in general with these kind of code tools in terms of the precision editing that you want to do. And trust me, I use the whole kind of landscape of tools to really see kind of where these workflows are going. And I think still the gold standard for me is just being able to drag stuff around. And you can do a lot with a click that would take you a hundred words to kind of write and to like really precisely nail. Like no one wants to prompt for the exact hex code or the shade of yellow and that kind of stuff. That's just easier to just quickly do and directly manipulate.

Claire Vo: Yeah. I just think like what are humans where are humans going to be in the loop? And it's gonna be like fine motor skills and honestly being able to eyeball is that yellow happy or not. Like it's very hard to go through a design loop, a prompting loop of like, oh no, make that yellow just like a little bit more cheerful. But when you pull up the color picker, and you start going like this, you can really find the one that that works for you. So once you've gotten this into Figma, you're collaborating with your team, you're updating the design, what's the next step here? Because you know I can imagine you could pull this into another ticket and then send it send it to an engineer and say please could you make these updates but what do you think about doing once you've pulled it into Figma?

Ghee: There's definitely a few ways that we can do this. I can keep working myself. Let's say I'm working a late night because I'm really kind of into this project and I can just use MCP to bring it back to my local host. I could also just ping my engineer and say, "Hey, do you have an instance of this running? Do you want to like just upload it yourself and just work on it?" So from here we've created this kind of shared common ground where different people can plug in and just grab things out versus it living on my machine having to branch it having to get grapple with all that technical complexity. And actually it's a good point Alex, do you want to try and implement some of these other changes that we've kind of put together?

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So let's say I want to implement this particular variant. What I can do is I can copy the URL of that and go right back into my Cloud Code session. So I have the app also loaded here locally and I can say, "Bring the changes from this component into my codebase." And which component is it? It's the this is for the budget allocations page. And it's going to then use the Figma MCP server in a different way. This one allows it to take stuff that's currently within the Figma document and automatically transform that into code which then gets reconciled with your local codebase and automatically applies those changes for you automatically.

Claire Vo: Again, I need to have like an old lady moment, which is I tell people, you know, when I used to have to like walk uphill both ways for my CSS, thinking about what I used to have to do to get a close to P, and I was on both sides of the table. I was a designer and then I was an engineer to get like a pixel perfect version of whatever somebody had mocked up and I mean we didn't even have Figma. I was doing thing. I was making Photoshop PSDs for the real olds out there. And I just the ability to like pull in what's the size of this, how's it supposed to look, what's the alignment all through just typing still to this day blows my mind. Alex, I'm curious how this has just changed your relationship with what your job is as a software engineer. I know you said like the mechanistic pieces have gone away, but what does this do for you for from like a time like how you spend your time perspective?

Alex: Yeah, I mean I spend quite a lot of my time just sitting here inside of my terminal now. I do so much less I think of the like what I used to have to do where I had to have a browser window open at the same time as having my code window open. There are times where I need to check check those types of product oriented flows, but there's actually quite a few changes especially when they're kind of mechanistic in nature like this where I don't even necessarily have to have the visual in order to get the work done. So I often have two, three, up to five maybe cloud code instances running all at the same time, working on different aspects of the work that I'm tracking. So some of them might be doing things that are just reconciling the design file with the codebase, but other ones might be working on exploratory things, answering questions that I have about the codebase, writing specs and documentation that we could talk about in a little bit and kind of my workflow around grounding technical specifications inside of code bases. I'm just going to allow cloud to progress here. So it was able to find what those differences were between the design file and the codebase and it's actually going ahead and applying them.

Claire Vo: And what's amazing to me and I think people don't don't articulate enough about let's call it a multimodal AI or computer vision all this stuff is it doesn't have to be you dragging a PNG of the file into Claude Code it it reading that through a vision model and then making some inferences about it and designing it. You're actually doing this like sort of pseudoructured data to pseudoructured data translation through the MCP which has to have much higher accuracy but it's translating functionally visual information which I think is just so nifty. I love it. Has this changed kind of your mental model of what does I mean I think Figma in general has pushed forward everybody's mental model of like how you encode design into data but I'm curious how are you all evolving your thinking when you have all these multimodal models at your at your fingertips when you can do kind of structured data to other structured data translations. Has that inspired any ideas internally about what the future of design looks like?

Ghee: What's really interesting about like our our role with all of this is kind of really moved upstream. And we're in this really I find it almost decadent moment in time where before we had to be so conditioned on really sharp product decision-making skill that would have happen like almost immediately and being able to like quickly reason with stuff and quickly get to really good craft because the bulk of the time was spent building. And so the longer you ate into that, the more P zeros became P1's and P2s. And so now we're kind of actually at this point where more of the priorities can make it above the cut line. And also we can spend a lot more time in the planning stage. You ask me like does it start with with design or with code? Actually, I start a lot of it with planning and just like really riffing and allowing myself and indulging in the the possibilities and then kind of riffing in in something that you know if if it I need it to be something that can only exist in code, it will be code if otherwise I will diverge in design. But I see design is much more at this kind of like what should we be building stage of the conversation which we were before but it was like a very rushed moment there. And now we can spend a lot more time in it because we know that actually the the building will happen a lot quicker. And so we do that and then on the other side we spend a lot more time in the craft because we can because we can reach higher for ideas. Because before we were like, well I don't know, hopefully an engineer will get my intention. Now I could spend a lot a lot longer in that moment.

Claire Vo: I love that you called this a decadent moment because it was two years ago at config actually I gave a talk on the future of product management and I said this is the era of yes like this idea of the cut line has to disappear and how many planning meetings have we all been in where we look at a design and an engineer goes oh well that's just going to add scope like we got to cut scope or we look at a a priority planning meeting and we say oh that that that little fix that everybody hates in our app I know that everybody hates it, but it's not a P 0 priority. So, it's got to, you know, go go next year. And I do think this idea that you can really have an abundance, a feature level abundance mindset is is and and the craft level abundance mindset where you can put the polish and all the things that make these experience are one of the benefits of working with AI right now.

Alex: So, it's done here. It's applied the patch and now you can actually see that the app has been updated and it looks exactly like what the Figma design looked like but has been applied entirely within code.

Claire Vo: And so the benefit we got here just to reiterate for folks that are not watching is took an existing app that had drifted very far from the original file in Figma. Happens to the best of us. We programmatically pulled it into Figma. We used our beautiful fine-tuned opposable thumbs and fingers to actually drag and create the perfect design that we wanted in Figma. And then that's very easily pulled in by an engineer like Alex Cloud Code, whatever your code is. Built the code, didn't even look. I mean, you you did look, but like didn't have to look at the design and now it can be deployed pixel perfect. Everybody's happy. That's how it works.

Ghee: That's how it works.

Claire Vo: Okay, now we're just hitting the rubber wall and we're going the other direction. And so you're going to show me how we can start with no design, go from Cloud Code into a design, and then I'm presuming back to Codeex. And this episode's just going to be a pingpong back and forth. So Alex, how would you as a engineer know design setup actually start designing something in Figma?

Alex: Often times like the codebase gets way ahead of where the actual design file is and there's states or workflows that just don't exist at all within the design file. And I want to show you a little demo of like how you can actually take all of those states that don't exist within your design file, but exist within your codebase, bring them into a Figma design file so that your design collaborators can work directly off of those. Here I've been working on a signup flow for a new app that I've been working on. And there's a few different states of the signup flow, but not all of those states exist within my design file. And so what I can do is say, "Send all five states of the sign up flow to Figma." Now the agent's going to do is read my codebase, understand what I'm referring to when I say those five states. And for each one of those, it's going to individually import that one by one into Figma such that the Figma document will then have all of those states laid out all side by side so that Gee, my design partner, can work against it.

Claire Vo: Yeah. Again, I'm just going to go back to how it was before. And I'm having flashbacks to these design packages that I used to send over to engineering where every single error state, every bit of copy, every this flashes yellow, this flash is red, this has orange, this is the hover state was documented, designed, lovingly crafted pixel by pixel. And the ability here again I think for a designer even to say like can you remind me what happens when you have a correct email but an incorrect password on this signin flow and like what is our error state without having to go into the code and without having to replicate that in production is pretty powerful. And then you layer on top of that oh cool it's actually in a Figma component so I can go in and edit it. It's not just a screenshot is is quite nice. And so right here, is this in Figma?

Alex: These are all the browser windows that it opened up. But here is now the Figma document that has all of those states laid out side by side. And you can see that each one of them was imported as part of this like exact flow all into the same Figma file. And I can now send this link over to my design partner so that while I'm working on my side of the codebase they can actually get started on riffing on this, experimenting with different colors, patterns, etc. all while I'm doing my my normal development work.

Claire Vo: This feels like pair programming for designers and engineers together. It's such an interesting new way, new, G, as you said at the beginning, like a new workflow to think about where you're both in different expressions of the same part of the app and you can work very quickly back and forth using the MCP as a connector here.

Ghee: Exactly.

Claire Vo: Do you find yourself doing more synchronous work or more asynchronous work because of this?

Alex: I find that asynchronous work tends to be like my default now. However, I do find that like there's something that's really special about synchronously working through things like with your collaborators, whether it's other engineers or designers, remote oriented environments, like you know, you you get a lot of benefits about being able to like work, you know, around the clock basically, regardless of, you know, where everyone's located. But there's something that's still really special about putting everyone together in one place and having that collaborative canvas experience that really brings everyone together I think is still something that you can't quite replace even with pull requests, even with you know screen share. There's something that feels different when you know folks can freestyle over here and other folks can be working on something else totally unrelated but in the same shared space and seeing each other like kind of work in real time. I think with with this kind of tool it's really reenabled a lot of the sync work we went it's funny you're talking about the handoffs of packages it's I often feel it's it's like the planet of the apes analogy where we've gone so far into the future in the past where like technology is sci-fi but we're back in this like thing of handing over USB sticks here's my version here's version controlling things and you know now with this I can like be working on an idea with my team together and the energy that we've rediscovered around those spikes where we're all just prototyping and throwing it all into the same place and it doesn't feel like oh I'm going to work into this and tomorrow I'll show you a version and then you will show me a version like momentum begets momentum and so having the team together riffing and yes anding and trying this stuff out is really great. There are going to be moments where I was like, "All right, I think we've we we've had a good good jam here. Now, let's go deep." And that's fine. Let's go converge. But there is something to be said about even in remote environments jumping into a Figma file and just seeing cursors flying around and trying out stuff. I haven't found a better alternative for that. And I'm hoping if anybody does, it'll be us. To be honest,

Claire Vo: One one thing that I want to call out is we've talked a lot on this podcast about engineering toil and reducing engineering toil through AI and Alex we might see some of that in in just a little bit of how do you structure your process and reduce the you know as you say the mechanistic parts of your work or the kind of tactical parts of your work. There is design toil out there. There is copying and pasting files. There is this version final final V2 V3 final final signed off by boss just kidding final again like there you know there's who's rounding these corners and checking that you know the fonts are matching or that the capitalization is right there's a lot of design toil that goes into building a beautiful product and the other thing that I see is AI can just strip a lot of that work away and again leave you focusing on the higher leverage uses of your talent and contribute contributions to your product which you think results in a higher engaged team.

Ghee: Great.

Claire Vo: Okay, we're gonna wrap with one last use case which is not Figma related but is has been really powerful in your workflow, Alex, which is everybody's favorite new primitive of the AI stack, the skill. So, let's see a couple of skills that you found useful to install as an engineer and why you picked them, why you built them, and how you use them.

Alex: So I may actually be somewhat in the minority here where I I actually just write a lot of the skills myself or ask the AI to write them for me. A lot of it is based on just consistently having I kind of think of them as just like large like macros like prompts that I can invoke at any point in my workflow. One of the ones that I've been using frequently is this /ship skill that I wrote. I use it all the time in my workflow. Often in order to get something into a large repo like the Figma repo, there's a lot of work that's involved in just making sure tests pass, making sure all of the like pre-flight things are in order and also then once it's pushed to the repository, checking on CI and making sure that it correctly built and is all green so that I can actually merge it. Previously I would have to kind of babysit these you know kind of processes like all the way at every single step and it just created a lot of friction for me. So I wrote this /ship skill that I use all the time. So inside of Figma we have these things called dev boxes which are hosted development environments that we do most of our work in. Now part of that devbox environment is that we automatically insert like bootstrap scripts in order to make it so that when you boot your new dev environment that any of your customizations that you specifically have for your dev environment also get put alongside it. So what you're looking at right here is my internal Git repository that stores all of my personal configuration for my dev box. And I have a couple of commands here. Some of which are underneath the the devbox command that I'll talk about in a little bit. But this this is how I manage the dev box itself and create new skills via it. So I have a skill for creating more skills. As well as a couple of just really popular ones that I use all the time such as addressing PR feedback and the /ship command that I just mentioned. So what does that do? It boots up a bunch of things and runs a bunch of checks against the repository. These are what I refer to as pre-flight checks. They check for things inside of the commit to make sure I didn't accidentally commit something that doesn't make sense in the context of this particular like commit as well as running lint querying for various packages to make sure that we're correctly running the Basil build commands. We use Basil for build systems. And then finally like pushing it to the Git repository. So monitoring the CI checks after push using GitHub pull request checks. In order to do that we use Buildkite for our CI loop and that also gets checked. So once the build either succeeds or fails, the script will then check Buildkite for whether or not the logs represented anything. And if there are minor fixes like lint issues or otherwise, it'll automatically push another commit in order to fix that particular like more minor issue. And it'll do this up to five times with a 1-hour timeout waiting for CI. There's also a handful of things that are as things as I I went through like encouraging it not to force push just in case...

Claire Vo: That's the one I was looking at.

Alex: ...overwrites something inside of my repository or it commits credentials or things like that. But I use this skill pretty much all the time in my dev loop as a way once I've like hit a good state where I think that this is ready to go and should be like pushed to our repository. I do /ship and then walk away from my laptop and it usually takes it from there.

Claire Vo: So, one thing I want to call out, this is giving me such inspiration, which is every engineering org that I've ever run has an internal wiki that has that page, which is this is what you do before you push a PR and you get in everybody's way in the deploy pipeline. And every engineering team should go through their onboarding wiki and pull every page out, every this is what you should do into a skill and then give give access to that to their entire team. And so I think we're really shifted from this idea of like an SOP into a skill or a doc into a skill. And I know so many folks that have this buried in GitHub in Confluence and you can just give somebody the job for a week to take all that stuff and make it a skill. Push it in your repo and then let everybody benefit from a systematic way to to roll out those best practices.

Alex: Absolutely. Yeah.

Ghee: Awesome. It turns like a lot of these like processes that would otherwise just be, you know, based on best intentions and whenever people remember into something that can be fully automated and brought into people's workflows by default.

Claire Vo: Amazing. Okay. Well, this has been great. Just to recap what we saw, we saw Codeex to Figma to Claude Code to Claude Code to Figma to Figma. Basically just calling out you don't have to think about your designs as a static asset anymore. You don't have to think about building components in code only or in design only. These things can interact together. Calling out the benefits of just being able to touch the design with your cursor and collaborate live with your colleagues and then encoding some of your best practices into things like skills. Encoding some of your capabilities into things like MTP so then everybody can can access this stuff. So I'm going to ask you a couple lightning round questions. You both have to answer. They're clear rules, so you cannot say it depends. I'm going to start with the one that I started this episode with, which is Gee, code first or design first? If you had to pick one,

Ghee: Design first.

Claire Vo: I love it. And Alex,

Alex: I'd probably pick code first. And I think that...

Claire Vo: Breaking the mold here.

Alex: And this is why Figma had to make this MCP because there will never be never be agreement here.

Claire Vo: You know, my second question for you all, and Gee, I'm I'm interested in your opinion, is are there any things around AI, not let's put software and, you know, design systems, all this stuff aside, that you're really excited about as a creative, as a designer, that you hope people are going to start using more or talking about more?

Ghee: Honestly, it's just been a platform for me to just learn more about something that I was always curious about. And I hope that people like see the educational and the upskilling aspect of it and not just outsourcing any potential capability because it happens across everything. Anything you wanted to get a little bit deeper on, you can now do it without having to troll through links. Like it just it's just there at whatever moment you need it. And I think I've been diving deep into getting deeper into shaders which before was just pure mathematics that I had no business playing in. And now I was like, "Oh, wait. I can talk about it in natural language and I can learn more about the spec specifics that I want to learn about."

Claire Vo: Alex, what about you?

Alex: Yeah, I I mean I love going really deep. We have a massive code base at Figma and so I love asking all of the like crazy questions that I had always like wondered about. We have an internal service for example that I didn't know the origin of its name. And so I asked Claude to go and figure out based on the commit history what the origin was and it came back with a really good story about like how that came to be it got renamed multiple times that you know contributor has since left the company many years ago. So this was kind of lost in the ether but now now all of this lore honestly from the company is actually like embedded inside of the codebase and I can I can find it now.

Claire Vo: I'm gonna bridge both of your excitement which is I think it's such a fun thing to learn by quering open source libraries. And so the example of this recently is you know open claw now named openclaw came out and everybody's like so mystified. They're like it's working overnight and it's doing all this stuff for me. And I was like I'm just going to go into this thing and figure out how it's architected and how it actually does the thing it does. And it was such an interesting learning experience just to decompose how you would design a an agent and what were some of the kind of new things that it had built. And so that's another thing that I recommend either going deep in your co own codebase or going deep in an open source codebase to learn something is something that was so inaccessible before and now you can do basically on any open source library out there which I think is is really cool. Okay, last question. Alex, I'm going to start with you first cuz you you know, we had a tiny bit of friction with with Claude Code. I saw you sweat a little bit. When AI is not replying or how you want, it's not doing what you want, what is your prompting technique? Do you do you like just /clear and kill it? Like what do you do?

Alex: That that can work, but I find that the more successful one is it's either cursing a little bit in the prompt. I I you know I am somewhat ashamed to admit that that's extremely effective. But the more common one I I use now is that my boss is mad at me. And it seems to work pretty well. It kind of sympathizes with you and it's it's it's kind of cute.

Claire Vo: I you know I I sometimes say about this about parenting. I tell my kids I only yell at you because it works. Like I don't want to yell at you but sometimes it's the only thing that you guys listen to. Gee, what about what about you? Are you also do you also...

Ghee: I I have to take the gentle parenting route. I'm terrified of the robots taking over and reading through my prompt history. So, I'm still on the make no mistakes camp.

Claire Vo: Oh, make make no mistakes. I am very polite. I I kind of go with like no. Like I sound really like sad. I'm like no. Or I do sort of growth mindset parenting where I say I believe you can do it and I believe you're capable of solving this problem. You just apply yourself. You can do all things.

Claire Vo: Alex G, this was so great. Where can we find you both and how can we be helpful to you?

Alex: You can find me on X. I'm on access.io.

Ghee: Amazing. And you can find me on any social media platform as Geizg Gui. And just generally if you figma, chances are I'll probably be reading it.

Claire Vo: Amazing. Well, it was so great to have you. I am so excited. I have gotten I've been very inspired about how we can manage our YouTube thumbnails through code and Figma. So I'm going to go experiment with that and I appreciate you all joining How I AI.

Alex: Thank you for having us for having us.

Ghee: Great.

Claire Vo: Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this show, please like and subscribe here on YouTube or even better leave us a comment with your thoughts. You can also find this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Please consider leaving us a rating and review which will help others find the show. You can see all our episodes and learn more about the show at howiipod.com. See you next time.