Stephen: This is super interesting to me. My team given me this report to show me how many of you that watch the show subscribe. And some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly. So, favor to ask all of you. Please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button if you are a regular viewer of this show and you like what we do here. We're approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So, if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to double check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear. I've stayed true to that promise since the very beginning of the D of Sio and I will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get on with the show. Jenk, thank you so much for being here with me. Um, there's so much going on in the world that I have so many questions and you both have very different perspectives on all of the issues that I care about the most. So, I thought I'd bring us together to try and pass through what is true. Unlike a lot of shows, I I don't expect a shouting match. What I'm trying to get is to truth. And I'm hoping that seeing the collision of your ideas on some of the big issues that are front of mind for me like artificial intelligence, like geopolitics, like what's going on in America now that I live there, I think will be incredibly beneficial to me and hopefully therefore my audience. I have this graph here that says seven in 10 Americans oppose local construction of AI data centers.

Kevin: If you go back in time, any new technology is extremely disruptive. Change is disruptive and it's uncomfortable and it always is that way and yet it always proves within the context of the American economy to create a lot of productivity and opportunity. And I would argue today if we're going to find a cure for cancer, it's going to be through AI. If we're going to democratize education, it'll be through AI. If we're going to do some advances on space research and travel, it'll be through AI. Productivity in the S&P 500 and it's all small companies, AI. And you can't have it without data centers. You actually need the underpinnings, the infrastructure. And so that debate, that narrative is going on, but there's a dark side to this that I've only started to bring forward in the last couple of weeks. I discovered this in Utah that there are some nefarious forces. Um, Arabella is the name of it. I didn't know anything about it, but I was wondering who was spending all the money in Utah with all that misinformation about what the data center was going to be talking about using water we weren't or using power we had no intention to or 40,000 acres that's complete BS. It was all lies. And I said, who could afford that? So I hired a bunch of forensic auditors and lo and behold it took me back to the Chinese through Arabellum uh Neville Singum is his name. He's funding all these organizations in Utah and I caught him through the IRS 990 filings and I handed it over the White House and to a bunch of special agents and I just wonder what's going to happen next. I'm loving this now. This is so interesting and it's a national debate and the poo poo's hit the fan. But I'm not debating this. I'm not suggesting it. I have irrefutable evidence the Chinese are meddling in every place where new power is being proposed in America, every state, every city. And it all goes back to the Chinese through this Arabellum. And just look at the IRS filings. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just providing the truth.

Stephen: Kevin, so just just for context here, there was a proposal to build some data centers in Utah, and you're saying that the push back and the negative reaction that has been seen is being encouraged or sponsored by the Chinese who are driving misinformation through bots. Is that what you're proposing?

Kevin: No, it's not through bots. It's actually through contributions that are shown through a a wide network of different entities. It's very it's very well um cloaked, but through forensic audit and IP address scraping uh with some really strong data scientists that I hired and I'm working with, we were able to provide 90 pages of IP addresses from foreigners uh to various agents and various entities within the US government. And we're going to keep doing it. We're we're providing it every four hours. where cuz one thing I have that I guess they hadn't thought through is I have 12 million followers on social media. No, no uh data center developer has 4 million followers. This all showed up on my feeds with bots on on Twitter which is now X and on Instagram and then onto LinkedIn. So we just provided the data to the government and where the chips fall I have no idea. And we had death threats uh to our executives. I provided that to the FBI and they visited the woman who did it in Denver. I think scared the pee peee right out of her, but she won't be doing that again. So, I mean, it's Listen, bring it. Don't mess with me. I'm just going to provide the data back to the government. I'm I'm I'm just telling the truth. I'm not debating it. I'm not suggesting it. I'm providing the IRS filings of the cash coming from Marabella right into the Alliance for a Better Utah and the story. I mean, that's Listen, I didn't ask for this fight. I'm just providing the data.

Stephen: Is that how you see things? Are you seeing the push back in terms of AI? Um, do you think it's coming from Chinese sponsored actors or do you think it's something else?

Jenk: No, I I don't think China has anything to do with it. Uh, so first off, there's a lot of things Kevin and I share. Uh, I'm also an entrepreneur. I'm a capitalist and went to Wharton Business School. So, I love America. I love the opportunity that America provides. I wanted to provide opportunity for all sorts of new businesses. So, that's not remotely the issue. Okay. So, the question is, are we going to pay our own uh costs? So now on the AI data centers um in the beginning I started reading these stories about how the data centers are driving up the energy cost for everybody in that community that they're based in and I couldn't believe it. But then I thought okay since we have basically legalized bribery in America that probably is true they probably you know given enough campaign contributions to make this happen and it turns out they have. No, if you're going to do a data center you have to pay for it and you have to pay for all of its costs. None of this subsidizing your costs to the average taxpayer who's not getting anything out of it. So, we have to be absolutely meticulous about who's paying for the cost of the data centers. And it should be the businesses that profit from it. Unless you'd like to take have the American people take some equity in your business because if we're going to pay your costs, obviously we should have equity in it. When we bailed out the bankers back in 2008, it was an absolute crime. We should have taken equity in those companies and then sold it later for a profit. I don't want the government to run banks, but I do want us to not be suckers. Uh we constantly pay for the research of the drug companies and never get any equity. So, um if you going to be capitalists, let's be capitalists.

Jenk: Now, the real reason why people are most angry about AI is not even the data centers. And they have every right to be livid about their energy costs being higher uh so somebody else can make a buck. Uh but the bigger issue is the unemployment that we're all worried is coming and it most definitely is. So, there's a lot of uh happy talk about, oh, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, robots are going to be cooking our salmon. Or two years from now, I don't really care. I don't need my salmon cooked by a robot. What I care about is, are we going to have massive unemployment? And right now, and I'm curious what Kevin's going to say about this because it's kind of indisputable if you're in the business community, everybody is in a rush uh to fire 10 to 25% of their workforce. and whoever gets there first gets a competitive advantage and the market's rewarded and their stock uh price goes up. Well, if everybody goes to fire 10 to 25% of their employees, we are going to have u not just a recession but a depression like we've never seen in our lives. And everybody's whistling past the graveyard here. Uh so, do we have a plan? Does the government have a plan? The only guy I've ever heard of working on a plan to deal with this tsunami of unemployment is Roana. other than him it's crickets and I think we're going to hit the iceberg really hard.

Stephen: Interestingly Jenk, the other person that I've heard talk about the unemployment wave coming has actually been some of the big AI CEOs. And if you go back and look look at their quotes through time, people like Sam Alman predicted that there will need to be some kind of UBI scheme. And I think Worldcoin, which is his other startup that uses um retina scanning to be able to distribute value to people to check their humans. One of the principles of the foundation of that company was to distribute UBI, universal basic income to everybody. So on this point, Kevin, do you do you disagree that there there will be a widespread unemployment apocalypse, as Jenk has called it on his Twitter feed.

Kevin: So So let's go through Jack's shopping list of disaster. I think it's fair to address them one at a time. Let's talk with the energy. I totally agree with him. You can't build a data center anywhere and tap into the grid because he's right. the price of energy would go up at the library, the church, and the community center by 30%. And that's what happened in Virginia. So that is no longer a possibility. In Utah, for example, I have to bring my own power. But the idea would be if we produce this energy because there's no data centers without energy. We'll put it back into the grid, not just for Utah, but for the whole country. Because I think he's right. Anybody that's building a new data center should have the responsibility to provide the power and put some of it back into the grid. That would solve two problems at once. The grid is tapped out. The library has no more power. We'll solve that problem for Utah and the country. So that's the first falsehood I run into fueled by the Chinese propaganda that came into Utah or whoever they are at Arabella, the CP C the CPP or the U you know who whoever this agency is because you have to follow it through all these nefarious holdings. But at the end of the day that's number one. Number two, the idea that everybody gets replaced by robots and then they eat the children, I don't buy that at all. Every new technology in American history for over 200 years has created vast opportunity, productivity, and fueled the economy to lead all economies on Earth by 20%. Which is still the case today. Now, it's an uncomfortable reality. The market hit new highs today. And that is an index of how great American companies are. And the smaller companies that are 5 to 500 employees also hitting on all cylinders now using AI tools for productivity, customer acquisition, maintenance. So the scare factor of saying that everybody loses their job and the robots eat the children. I just don't buy it. And so I think we should have that debate. But you don't know yet what opportunities there are in the economy driven by this new technology. So I think what I know there's fear and loathing and I think it's important to have that narrative. I think it's great to debate it but I think we should deal with fact. It's very very uncomfortable when chain hit change hits anywhere and yet it's proven itself within the context of the American economy to rise it above all challenges and still lead the world.

Kevin: Unfortunately, there's the issue of defense and the economy against China. They're our big adversary. In this last conflict in the Middle East where very few boots hit the ground, it was the technology that provided the ordinance precision that's been used. In the future, wars will be conducted using AI. And unfortunately, the country with the best AI technology will win those wars. I would certainly not want China to be ahead of us. Yet, I think they're the ones that would like to stop us building power and developing our AI platforms because they have something called deepseek. I just want to put a fact out there because we're talking about this. While we were stymied in building any new power, forget about data centers, just new power. The Chinese in the last 19 months built 400 gawatt of power off burning coal. They don't care about the environment. They don't have any policy about that. They have a supreme leader who points his finger at the ground and says, "Build a coal burning plant here. Put a data center behind it or you'll disappear in 18 months." And the people involved say, "Chop chop, Supreme Leader. We will make it happen." We can't do that in America. And he knows that. So he's spending as much money as he can making sure he stymies the efforts of every entrepreneur in every state to do the same. So that's what I think is happening and I'm happy to provide the data as I mentioned earlier and let the government and their special agents in all of these different departments I'm working with now. I'm proud to be providing this information. I think I've kicked the door open on something very very nasty.

Stephen: Um Kevin, I would like to take a look at that information as well. So we I'll pick pick up that pick up with you about that off camera. Um, what I wanted to ask you is a lot of this sort of doomerism around unemployment that we're talking about comes from the CEOs building the AI companies. And this is something that that's always caused me a bit of cognitive dissonance, which is I think if you go back to I've got some quotes here from March 2021. Sam Alman said, and he's the for anyone that doesn't know the CEO co-founder of OpenAI, which is the maker of ChatgBT, AI will probably replace most of the jobs people do today. entire job categories will be totally totally gone. And then Elon Musk said in May 24, probably none of us will have a job. If you want to do a job that job, it's kind of like a hobby. You can do a job, but otherwise AI and robots will provide any goods and services that you want. And Dario, who is the founder of Claude, which is the other major leading AI model, said this was in 2025, AI could eliminate half of all entry-level white collar jobs within 5 years. a shift that could push unemployment up to 20%. The public is being sugarcoated on what is coming. These are the people that are most wellplaced and arguably I mean depends how you look at it have the least incentive to say that their companies are going to cause societal harm and they're saying that their companies are going to cause massive massive unemployment. Do we do we assume that they're not telling the truth or that they don't know what they're talking about?

Kevin: I think that's a very selective um bunch of sound bites. Dario also said the CEO of Ananthropic, if we don't build more compute capacity in the next 6 months, the Chinese will catch up with us with deepseek. That's an ominous warning because, let's say you decide, look, it's too scary. Let's shut down the US's ability to advance compute. Let's just shut it all down as the Chinese want and let's all sit around the campfire and go kumbaya. Do you think the Chinese are gonna stop? I don't think so. I think they're going to continue to do this and they'll invade Taiwan using no boots. They'll just use AI to shut down their power. I mean, I'm just telling you that the Kumbaya stuff I totally agree with. I love it. But it's not reality. Should we compete? Should we advance our technology? Should we be the best in the world advancing research on AI to solve for cancer? Yes. Or do you want the Chinese to do that for you? And in 20 years, they'll tell your children what to eat when they're sitting at their table in New York City for breakfast. I'm the in the camp that says, "We know who our adversary is. We know that why they want to stop us." And Dario himself said, "Hey everybody, we better build some data centers real fast or in 6 months, Deepseek is now number one on Earth." I don't want that outcome.

Stephen: Jen, it appears to me that, you know, there's the CEOs are acknowledging that there could be a mass wave of unemployment that's going to cause a bunch of problems that I don't think people are thinking about. But also what Kevin's saying about it, you know, there being this this sort of global race between countries also appears to me to be true that if we just sit back and relax and put our fingers in our ear, then there's going to be a huge competitive advantage with this transformational technology that falls into the hands of China and um and we'll miss out as the West. What's your perspective?

Jenk: First to address a lot of things that have been said. First, I I don't know anyone saying that the robots are going to eat the children. So, I want to thank Kevin for educating me on a talking point there. Uh, I'm less concerned about that. A lot less concerned. Uh, but I am concerned about some level of death with AI, and that has already begun to happen. There are reports that we use AI in targeting that girl school in Tehran where we killed over 160 innocent school girls. Uh, so if that's what AI is going to bring us in precision, as Kevin pulled it, called it, uh, no thank you. I'm not interested in that kind of non-precision. Um, and and I would much rather have human beings involved in life and death decisions. And I'm super worried that AI is going to be used more in the military and uh, no, I do not trust Palanteer. Um, and so now in terms of universal basic income, I mean, think about it, guys. If a coder is making $120,000, you know, I I don't know where that puts him in two years in, seven years in, uh, it's a healthy salary. It's not the world's greatest salary, but it's a good good salary for a middle class person in America. Then you switch to UBI, you'd be lucky to get 3,000 a month. That's 36,000 a year. You're going to go from 120,000 to 36,000. That is going to be devastating. Even if you magically got universal basic income passed in America immediately as the wave of unemployment hit, but I don't think that's going to happen either. So, is the wave of unemployment going to hit? Well, if you notice, Kevin actually didn't address that at all. uh because there's no question that it's going to happen. That is why literally every CEO of the AI companies is saying, well, you know, our product is great and you should value us at a trillion dollars or so. Uh but yeah, you're all going to be fired. And and that's inescapable. It's already begun. The coders have already started getting fired, especially young coders. Uh they feel totally betrayed. They have to find a new line of work. But maybe that's a little bit easier for them because they're young and they're smart and they're professionals, etc. Uh, and there's a lot of smart folks, but getting a new profession at the age of 58, 62, what if you're a truck driver? Um, and so I'm not saying that the Whimos don't work better. I actually would trust a Whimo more than I would trust a human driver. But nevertheless, that car no longer has a driver that it did when it was a taxi or an Uber or a lift. And I understand that change happens. And look, I'm a progressive. for change politically, for massive change. I thought Obama did comically little change. Um, but we have to be careful with change. So, which direction is it going to go and how are we going to handle it? Right now, I think Wall Street has lost its mind. How could we be at record numbers? Who do you think's going to buy your products? So, this guy named Nick Hanower, there's a lot of folks who believe in this, but he's a big advocate of it. really smart guy up in Seattle, also an entrepreneur, also sold his business and has done well, and he talks about middle out economics. If we give more advantages to the middle class, they immediately spend their money. If you give it to the rich, which is what we've done all our lives with this neoliberal nonsense that we've been doing, uh, and trickle down economics, well, they barely spend any of it. So, giving to the middle is a much better way to go. And of course, the question is, how are you going to do that? And you don't just want to give away money. Uh, on the other hand, we give away money to oil companies and big drug companies and every one who's got excellent army of lobbyists in DC, but we're not ready. And no one on earth has given me a plan for, "Oh, Jen, don't worry. When 10% unemployment hits, which is at this point almost baked in, completely inevitable, right? Um, what are we going to do? 10% unemployment would be worse than anything that's ever happened in our lifetimes, let alone if you get to 25%. Zero plans for it. None. When that when we hit the iceberg, we're not going to be ready and it is going to be an epic disaster. There isn't going to be anyone to buy your goods because employees are also customers and you're going to lose a massive amount of customers and it is going to absolutely torpedo our economy. I can't believe how shortsighted Wall Street is. Now, does that mean we stop AI in its tracks and we stop change? No, we can't stop because it's it's true that China is also going, Russia is, North Korea is, Israel is. Now, the problem is if we get it first, then very very likely the Israelis will also have it and God help the world if that's true. Uh they have not been restrained in how they use their power and I wouldn't want them anywhere near that kind of power. But nevertheless, there is a race. So we can't just stop. So can we do the race in a way that is responsible and actually serves the American voters and citizens instead of just serving the executives of the AI companies and the shareholders of the AI companies? I hope we can, but we've taken absolutely zero steps in that direction.

Stephen: So let's get specific, Jenk. What might that look like to to continue developing this technology but do it in a way that's responsible and benefits everybody? Because this is kind of what I hear a lot of. I hear from one side people saying we need to carry on going or you know the robots and the kids thing. On the other hand I hear we need to be responsible but either side don't tend to be very specific about what their definition of responsible or a race a responsible race might look like. So does anyone have any specifics? Jenk.

Jenk: Yeah. So look, it's a it's a tough uh industry to regulate. I get it. You have to move fast and regulation usually involves some degree of bureaucracy. Um but if you have no regulation at all, you will have it run a muck. That's pretty much guaranteed. And all the leaders of the AI companies say likewise. So um we've got to the problem here in America is that it's nearly unsolvable in the window of time that we're talking about because we've lost our democracy in America. But we've legalized bribery that happened back in Supreme Court decisions in 1976 78 and then of course Citizens United. And so since we have legalized bribery in this country, there's no way they're going to serve the voters. So whichever AI companies are giving them more money, they're going to serve them. And that's already begun to happen. And the AI companies have already started getting involved in primaries and eliminating their opponents through money and politics. So, our politicians are deeply deeply corrupt in America. Republicans and Democrats, they almost all serve the donor class. So, we we won't make it. We'll I'm telling you right now, uh we're going to run into the iceberg and it's going to be an epic disaster. The only hope is electing a smart person who's prepared in 2028. Uh that that can begin to get us on the road. So now when the disaster hits, the AI shareholders and executives aren't going to like it either because the reaction will likely be tremendous anger. And then someone like me is going to say, "Hey, you know what? Uh why do they get to keep all the money and you're all broke and out of a job? They created this cost which is unemployment. Why don't they pay for it? So why don't we take some of the billions and billions and billions of dollars that these AI companies have made and put it towards their costs, which is the unemployment of the American people. So they could at a minimum fund unemployment insurance and we could make sure that that's very healthy. Uh and we they could begin to fund other things that might actually help other human beings. I know heaven forend that a millionaire or a billionaire should ever help another human being. But if you don't, the pitchforks are coming. I'm not a pitchfork guy. I'm I believe in nonviolence and I always will. Uh but I don't think people get the level of anger that's happening. I'll try to stop it, but the pitchforks will be significant. And this whole thing of no, I get all the money and you get nothing. Will not play well. You can try it, but it will end in disaster.

Stephen: Kevin, the pitchforks are coming. We're going to hit an iceberg. And it also sounded like AI is going to ultimately lead to a rise in what sounded like socialism.

Kevin: Wow. Jake's a real Debbie Downer today. You know, this has been forecast in the American economy. Every 20 years, it's the end of the free world as we know it. And that's not what happens. Let's go back and do a little factchecking on Jakester here. First of all, AI companies lose billions. They don't make any money right now. They're in a race, as we talked about earlier, against China primarily. They're raising a ton of capital and losing billions every year. We don't know yet how they're going to monetize it, but the market's willing to provide it because they see the productivity opportunity and the cure for cancer and the democracy around education and productivity for the nation already been proven by record earnings in the S&P of which all 11 sectors have adopted the first wave of AI to enhance productivity and reduce costs. We don't know yet what new jobs are going to be created. I'll just talk about the ones I'm creating in Utah. 4,000 construction jobs for about nine and a half years highpaying. And another 2,000 engineering and support jobs, extremely highpaying, because what's now a desert will be a data center. not near anybody's backyard, not replacing farmland, not using any of the water the way the people have been talking about, not taking any energy from Utah, but in fact contributing to it, not polluting the air because we can't do that without air permits. All of this stuff is a falsehood. So, what we don't know, and Jake's right about this, is no one ever predicts with a new technology what the outcome is. So, I'm not a doomer on this stuff. My job here is to maintain a direct focus on entrepreneurship, hire as many people as I can because that's what I do. And I take a lot of flak. I mean, Jake's hitting me hard today and he and I appreciate he's an intelligent guy and he's got an opinion and I'm glad we're in this narrative and having this discourse. It's important, but let's deal with fact, not rhetoric and not hysteria. Because I still go back to the robots eating the babies, cuz that's all I all I listen to every day. It's just ludicrous. And I don't think robots are actually going to do as much as people think or look the way they think. They're not going to be humanoid walking around taking out your garbage. That's not how it's going to work. Robots have been building cars for decades now and doing other things in medical research and robotics have been used in all kinds of technologies and chipm and everything else but they don't they don't look like people walking around. So, you know, I I say to myself, we don't know what we don't know, and that's fair. But to say that all of these AI companies are making billions of dollars and something else, and Jake knows this, most of the taxes in America are paid by the rich people. They pay their fair share now. So if you take it past 50% like California, like New York, like New Jersey, like Massachusetts in the Constitution of America with the forethought of the founding fathers, they believed in the competition of states. And so you have people moving Schultz to Florida, you know, the Google guys to Florida, some have gone to Texas. If you want to steal rich people's money, go ahead. They'll just move. And if you really make it difficult for them in every state in America, they'll do what they did in England. They'll find a new America. That's what made America great to over 200 years ago. Taxation. It doesn't work. The thing about socialism and communism is you run out of other people's money very quickly because they simply leave. The French figured that out. That's what happened any in England when they raised 90% tax rates. Monaco, I mean, it only exists because the French screwed the rich French guys and they all move four miles across the border. It's very simple. You want to support entrepreneurship and job creation. Only onethird of the population in America can be entrepreneurs and they employ the other twothirds. That's the way it's been for 200 years and it's a great thing. And I don't see anybody else investing money anywhere else except America 52% of the time. 52 cents of every dollar on earth from sovereign wealth comes to America because it has the opportunity. No other country. I don't see a lot of people saying boy would I like to invest in North Korea. Hey, can you get me into Russia? Is there a Russian fund I can invest in? Oh, can I invest in Cuba? I don't think so. I don't want to put my money there for retirement. That's why I'm talking about this. The facts are the facts. Get over it. Inhale. Everybody chillax and let's keep the American dream going.

Stephen: Jen, I'll get your response to that. Many things said there. I mean, the core argument there is if you try and tax rich people, they're going to leave and go somewhere else and, you know, we might end up like Cuba.

Jenk: Yeah. So, I did I miss this meme about the robots eating the kids because I don't know why they

Kevin: I love the robots eating the kids. I just don't think it's going to happen.

Jenk: I don't think anybody thinks it's going to happen. It sounds like it was made up. Um, okay. So, there's some fear-mongering about robots eating kids and how America's going to turn communist or something. No, no, no. Look, as I said, we're capitalists. We're just trying to figure out what's the best way to do this. Capitalism isn't supposed to be let's crush the average guy and make sure the corporate CEOs get everything. I'm a corporate CEO, but it's not right and it's not balanced and it's not American. The American way is to make sure that we build a super strong middle class that are great, productive citizens, voters, and by the way, consumers, right? And so if we lose track of that, then we're all going to be doomed. So, like Kevin's so worried that somebody's going to take his money. And it's not just Kevin. They always like threaten us like, "Oh, oh yeah, we'll leave. I mean, don't threaten me with a good time." Uh, but but beyond that, okay, but beyond that, Kevin, that's not going to be your main problem. When you don't have any consumers, that's going to be your main problem. You have to protect the American middle class. That, you know, you could argue that's the goose that lays the golden eggs. And you guys keep chipping away and chipping away at that middle class. And so right now, Stephen, this late into the conversation, still no plans on what to do with inevitable massive unemployment. And what I'm telling you is we're not going to go necessarily to communism, but we are going to wonder, wait, why is everyone unemployed and and only a couple of people have reaped billions or trillions of dollars? So, and and and come on, Kevin. You know, you know how uh the economy works and the markets work. Yes, you invest into it in the beginning and that's why right now they're theoretically losing billions of dollars. Same exact thing that happened to Amazon.