What's nice about baking is that at the end of the day, like you still have a cookie. Like, you know, like not being afraid of making a mistake is going to like free you up so much mentally in the kitchen.

I'm Christine Sir Cleette. I'm Kyra Blackwell. I'm Rosie Garin. And you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show.

Guys, today we're talking about cookies.

Oh my god.

Not just cookies, but the book Cookies, which is the new book from Von Breland, who is part of the New York Times cooking team.

I'm really excited to talk to Van. He is charming, he is skilled, and he has a ton of great recommendations for holiday baking. He is the host of Bake Time, which is a video series for New York Times cooking.

It's also the name of a newsletter that he started.

Yeah, they they just came out with that in October. I subscribed. It's great. And he's got like practical but also aspirational advice on how to make cookies. And he wrapped it all up in his new book, which came out in October. And I'm so excited because it's all ramping up for cookie week at the New York Times cooking.

It's a big It's a big part of the year. One of the things that we did that's fun in this episode is we asked to hear from our listeners. So, we're gonna see if he can answer some questions about cookies.

Yep. So, we're going to take a quick break and then when we're back, we'll be with Von Breland and hopefully we'll get everything you need to know about baking great cookies. Stick around.

Welcome back. Our guest today is the cookie man, Von Vland. Van is the host of the New York Times cooking YouTube series and newsletter called Bake Time, and he has a new book out appropriately called Cookies. The book is a love letter to cookie baking. It is full of recipes for every occasion. Many of which van developed, plus with many contributions from his colleagues at Times Cooking, including Eric Kim's goji chang caramel cookies, Ywanda Kamalafes spiced chocolate marble shortbread, and Sola Elley's white chocolate macadamia nut cookies. Von, so happy to have you here. Welcome.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

So, we are catching you actually mid cookie week. For those who are not familiar with Cookie Week, this is a New York Times cooking annual tradition where they publish a bunch of really awesome holiday cookie recipes. There's supporting videos and all this awesome stuff. Van, can you tell us a little bit about cookie week and what we can expect this year?

Oh, it's good. It's really good. So, we convene in like May and we're like, okay, so how do we not necessarily one up ourselves, but how do we keep like pushing the form a little bit? Imagine you guys trying to like reinvent the cookie wheel and see like a TV show about this.

No, it's like it's like we convene and we get pitches from all the developers and then we like put them literally up onto like a board and then we mix and match from the different pitches to see like, okay, so she pitched a fruity one, he pitched a nutty one, they pitched like a chocolatey one. How did these all look together in a cookie box?

Oh, that's awesome. I like that.

It's fun. It's a lot of mixing and matching. And

so this year I'm really excited because the theme is but make it a cookie.

So like my first recipe I ever worked on for New York Times cooking was an eggnog snicker doodle

and it is based off of the beverage and then I kind of took that and ran with it the other cookie week. So, I did like a Mexican hot chocolate cookie, a gingerbread latte cookie, and they were popular because I think people resonate with those flavor profiles, and then they're like, "How does that translate into a cookie?" Right.

And it's super festive.

It's festive. Yes. So, this year, everybody's like, "Well, why don't we just do like a riff on that and have everybody pitch but make it a cookie?"

So, people were thinking about like their favorite cocktails as cookies. There's a mortadella cookie, which goes actually probably one of my favorite ones.

It's like a sausage.

Yeah.

is that the with pistachio?

Uh yeah.

Yeah. It's got pistachio. It's really creative and fun. It's like a almond cookie like a slice and bake that gets its pink hue like the mortadella like soft pink from freeze-dried strawberries.

And then there's pistachios and macadamia nuts for those like little specks of fat that you would see. It looks just like it is a little trippy. Yeah, it's fun.

We put out a call to our listeners to send us their toughest questions around cookie baking and so we want you to help diagnose their various baking issues. So, are you game to answer some questions?

Oh, yeah, totally.

All right, let's go.

Hi, wire cutter. My name is Poppy and I'm from New York City, but I'm currently living in the DMV. My cookie question is, when baking cookies, does it make a difference if you use a silicone pad or parchment paper on a baking sheet? Does one add more of a crispy texture? Thanks. Bye.

Oh, this is a good question. I feel like I've had this question. Shout out to the DMV.

Like, oh my god, Poppy, I love you. Um, that is a a really good question. I still test recipes on both silicone baking mats and parchment paper to make sure that it bakes the same. Okay. Sometimes it will bake differently. Silicone it will absorb more of the heat on a metal baking tray. So parchment there's going to be a little bit less hindrance. It's more of like a you'll have like more metal conduction underneath it.

So does it make it crisper with the parchment and browner?

You know, in my oven yes it does. In my oven, things tend to cook a little bit faster on parchment paper. Now, the people like baking on silicone because all you got to do is wash it off. It also will create, for me at least, more consistent results. But parchment, I think, is more of the route that we go with for a lot of our cookie recipes because it's more like readily available at the grocery store. And it's usually going to be a little bit easier to lift the cookie off of the parchment quicker.

But yeah, I mean, still, that's a question that I still like test recipes to make sure that it works the same on both. If there is a discrepancy in them, it's worth noting, but usually it's about the same.

Okay, that's great. So, Poppy's question is a really good segue into talking a little bit more about gear. What are your essential cookie baking tools in the kitchen? What do you think if people are really wanting to bake this holiday season, what do they really, really need to have?

You have to have a good strong spatula.

What shape? I like the kind of spoonulas because they what like they call it a spoonula because it's got a little bit of a divot like a spoon, but it's also a silicone spatula. For me, that's like the easiest of getting into, you know, if you're with a stand mixer or even with a hand mixer and a bowl, scraping down the sides is very key. Like especially after creaming the butter and the sugar. To me, that's also something that kind of goes back to Poppy's question of like consistency. I experience much more consistent bakes if I take the time to actually go through the steps as intended. Like,

you write about that in the book. Read the recipe from top to bottom.

Absolutely. Read the recipe from top to bottom and you run less of a risk, less of a margin for error. But yeah, I would say a silicone spatula, a spoonula. I would say I like OXO cookie scoops. I think that OXO cookie scoops are they're the ones that a lot of our developers test with. But the thing that's really frustrating about cookie scoops is from brand to brand they're all different sizes.

OXO makes a 2 oz cookie scoop, for example. And that doesn't necessarily always correspond with the same size as like the restaurant supply store ones. So definitely make sure that when you're using a cookie scoop, I like to fill it with water and put it in like a shot glass to see how many ounces it actually is.

And 2 ounces is what you would recommend.

I use Well, I it depends on for my chocolate chip cookies, I use a 2 oz scoop, which is going to be four tablespoons. And then a 1 oz scoop is 2 tablespoons. So for a smaller drop cookie, my cookie for cookie week this year is the 1 oz scoop. And just to be clear, a cookie scoop is kind of like It looks like an ice cream scoop, but it has a little thing that you push with your thumb to eject the cookie dough.

Exactly. Yeah. It's got a release mechanism.

Yes. Right. Right. Like for Mission Impossible cooking.

Yes. I mean, and depending on the dough, like I have worked with dough before that was too cold and sometimes the cookie scoop snaps. So, I think that the OXO ones are traditionally the most durable. The OXO ones I've had for like eight years. also, you know, be set up for success, whether you're baking on parchment or your silicone baking mats. I like to have everything laid out for me before I start baking because there's nothing worse than having like dough all over your hands and everything's greasy and then you got to go like into the drawer and find the plastic wrap. Everything gets all buttery. When you have a nice misison plus that is very comforting when you go into the baking process and also makes you a little bit more confident. Another thing I think that everybody should own a kitchen scale. Even if you're a casual baker, even if you're baking curious, I think that you should own a kitchen scale. Go into your kitchen and measure out a cup of flour in your cup. First of all, I have like four different brands of cup measures and they all are different for some reason. And when I scoop, even if I'm like delicately scooping the flour out of my container, I will scoop probably 145 g for one cup of flour, our cup is 126 g for our recipes.

Definitely a kitchen scale. And they just make such quick work of everything. We recommend the Escali. Mine is Escali. Yeah, I think that's like a really common one that a lot of people recommend. It's cheap. It's like under 30 bucks.

It's under 30 bucks. And my friend Sue used to work at 11 Madison Park and that was the one that she had when she worked there.

What about a baking sheet?

Oh yeah. You know, um, rimmed baking sheet for sure. And

because that's what we test all of our recipes on. My mom has this. I guess it would be considered what they maybe call a cookie sheet, which is like the ones without the rim. And

yeah, my grandma has those and she swears by them,

you know. To me, they're like flimsier. They don't conduct the heat as well. And like I always burn stuff on them. I think just any like rimmed baking sheet that if you knock on it, it should sound

denser,

right? And it should sound like wobb like it's wobbling like those sheets of like thunder with in the movies. Yeah, it shouldn't sound like that. No, it should sound like you're like knocking on something a little bit a little bit heftier.

What are some of the nice to have pieces of gear that you think would will just make cookie baking easier and more pleasurable?

I love an offset spatula. I use it for basically everything. If you think about a spatula, it's like the handle and then the metal part goes straight out from it. This one has like a little bit of a dip before the spatula part. So it it is on two planes. You've got the handle on one plane and the actual spatula part on another.

Spongebob.

Yes, it is like that. And they're long and skinny and so that's nice. People use it for baking cakes and things like that for smoothing stuff out. I like to use them actually like the small offset for like peeking under the cookie when I'm taking it out of the oven to make sure that the bottom it's a very delicate way of doing it without using a big fish spatula or something like that and like running the risk of breaking your cookie before it sets.

What about a cooling rack?

I was going to say a cooling rack that fits in the sheet tray.

I'm so sorry you guys can tell that I don't bake. What's a cooling rack?

It's a w It's a wire rack that's a grid. And so like usually you want your cookies to set up for a couple minutes before you transfer them because the residual heat that's still on the baking sheet will still like kind of cook them. Yeah. So putting a cooling rack I like to have ones that fit in my sheet tray because they won't wobble around as much. I have knocked cooling racks of cookies off of the counter and it is not very fun. I like that. And then you know what is my favorite thing that is like such an extra thing to have but it is makes your cookies very beautiful. And you can do this with like a low ball glass too but ring molds.

Oh.

So ring molds are actually really fun for getting that like Instagram perfect circular cookie. When a cookie comes out and it's like shaped like an amoeba, you know, and you're like, "Okay, wait. This isn't very circular." Well, talking about it's still warm and still kind of malleable when it's on the sheet tray. So you take the ring mold or like a low ball glass and you put it over it. The circumference has to be wider than the actual cookie and then you just do concentric circles really fast and it makes a very perfect circular cookie. That's what all of our food stylists do.

That is such a hack. That is a hack.

I am doing that. I'm going to impress my my family.

You can buy like the ring molds on Amazon. The nice thing about those too is they come in a bunch of different sizes. So they start at probably like a 1 inch diameter and go out to like probably a 6 inch diameter. And then another cookie tip, if we're talking cookie tips of making them like really picture perfect is especially like a chocolate chip cookie, reserve some chunks of chocolate and then press those into the top before you bake them. And then that will create those like really beautiful puddles of chocolate on top

while it's still dough.

While it's still dough and then it bakes into it perfectly. Always wondered how you how they get those.

Yeah, cuz like a lot of times, you know, when you scoop it, you'll get dough on the the mounded side and you won't see the chocolate on the inside. Still going to taste great, but it's not going to have those like we call them puddles of chocolate.

I love that. Oh, I am loving that. That's great. So, are there any pieces of gear that you think people think they need to have to make great cookies, but you're kind of like, you don't need that? M you know I I didn't have a stand mixer for a long time when I moved up to New York and I like was still able to very adequately make cookies and so I don't think you need it. I will say like a hand mixer makes really nice work of stuff though. Like what are some things that people

extra special butter?

If butter is like in the title of something like brown butter, you probably do want to splurge if you're able to, of course,

because brown butter, it gets its flavor from the milk solids browning. The higher quality or the higher fat butter is going to have more milk solids to brown, so it will taste more nutty typically. We have a listener question actually that's specifically about butter that I'd love to toss and get your thoughts on.

Hi, this is Jacqueline from Salt Lake City, Utah. My question is about brown butter. My sister has a chocolate chip cookie recipe with brown butter and it's phenomenal and now I want to try brown butter in all of my cookies. Is this a good approach? Is it advised for some types of cookies but not others? Any tips on brown butter and cookies would be great. Thank you.

I love this question. I love this question because when I was first making brown butter cookies, I also wanted to put brown butter in everything. Like I literally was like, "Oh my god, this is so good." Um, but you can't just simply swap brown butter for butter in a recipe. You have to think about what is happening to butter when you're browning it and think about what you're losing. You're losing water. You're losing a big portion of the moisture content that's actually in that butter because that's what's being driven off before it can then brown.

And so if you think about it, melt butter, pour it into like a Pyrex, and you'll see that, you know, if you're doing two sticks of butter, that's a cup of butter. So it'll go to the cup line. But if you brown two sticks of butter, you're going to probably lose close to a/4 cup of moisture that's in there. So, you know, I always, if I'm browning butter, like to make sure that the volume measurement lines up and I'll pour it into like a glass measuring cup and then I'll usually add an ice cube cuz that also just stops the cooking. You could add bourbon to it, you know, which would make it like any kind of like, you know, anything that's like going to add that moisture back in there. I actually did a test with our very popular Jacqu Torres chocolate chip cookie and I browned the butter without putting an ice cube in it and just continued with the recipe as written and it was just very dry. You know, you need that extra bit of moisture back in there. And you know, I think in terms of flavor, you do you. And again, also if you're thinking about brown butter, it's liquid when it's hot. look at the recipe and if the recipe is calling for softened butter, you're going to want to take the time to like resolidify that brown butter before you actually continue what the recipe is written.

Van, what I'm hearing so far is you really don't have to get too complicated to make great cookies. You can keep it very simple. You just need a few tools. You need to have your spatula, maybe a spula, a good baking sheet, parchment or silicone mat, and then the sort of nice to haves are a cooling rack, a hand mixer or a stand mixer, and those ring molds, which I'm very intrigued by those. I want to try those. And then do not go off script with the brown butter. If the recipe doesn't call for brown butter, just don't assume that you can do brown butter instead. Um, you're going to have to factor in the loss of liquid in that.

Absolutely. And I think what what's nice about baking is that at the end of the day, like you still have a cookie, like you know, like it might not be the most perfect thing, not being afraid of making a mistake is going to like free you up so much mentally in the kitchen.

Well, we're going to take a quick break and then when we're back, we're going to dive deeper into the cookie baking process to get the results that you really want. And we're also going to talk with Van about the most common mistakes people make when baking and how to troubleshoot when you've messed something up and more listener questions.

Yay. So stick around. We'll be right back.

Welcome back. Our guest today is Von Reland from New York Times Cooking. We're talking about his new book, Cookies. Before the break, we talked about the gear you need to bake and Van fielded a couple of questions from our listeners.

That's right. So, we've got a great listener question to get us started. So, let's hear from Jennifer.

Hi, wire cutter. This is Jennifer Molina and I am calling right now from Bill Bao, Spain. Although normally I live in California. This is a burning cookie question I always have. I like thick, dense cookies. Um, and sometimes when I'm baking, they actually come out a bit flatter than I would like. I want topography dense amazing cookies. What am I doing incorrectly? Thanks so much.

Let's help Jennifer.

I mean,

she needs a topographical cookie.

Jennifer is a person after my own heart. I mean, I am a chewy, dense cookie person. So, a lot of times when cookies spread a little bit too much, there could be a few things going on. You could overcrowd your pan and that will create more of this like radiation of heat as the cookies around it absorb more heat. Another thing is chilling the dough. If you're not properly chilling the dough or if you like have a cookie recipe that you really like the flavor of, you might want to chill the dough before you actually bake it, which will help mitigate that spread.

And you would recommend scooping them onto the sheetpan and then putting them in the refrigerator.

Yeah, I always scoop and then chill. Some people would probably say like, "No, you need to like chill the whole mass of dough because drying out and whatnot. If you wrap it well, it should be fine." But it's so much easier to scoop the dough at room temperature than to scoop it when it's cold. And that is how I've broken cookie scoops before. Um, so yeah, chilling. And then also your ratios. Like I was testing my cookie for cookie week this year and it was spreading a little bit more than I wanted. So then I swapped the quantities of granulated sugar and brown sugar and it made this topographically beautiful mounded cookie.

And you put in more brown sugar.

Put in more of a ratio of brown sugar. So brown sugar is going to give cookies a lot of that chew because of its moisture and it's got all that molassesy notes in it. So it also gives it beautiful flavor. White sugar helps with the crisp around the edges and also typically creates a spread in cookies. Also just make sure that your leavenning like your baking soda and your baking powder is up to date. Go to the store, maybe buy a new one if you don't think that you've gotten a new one in the last like couple years. Get a new baking soda. Get a new baking powder.

I did not think that that would be a thing that would have a big impact if they were past an expiration date. I just I wouldn't think about baking soda in that way.

Totally. Yeah, leavenning can like really react differently with certain things.

Well, we actually have another listener question along these lines. Let's let's hear it.

Hey, wire cutter. My name is Caitlyn and I live in Strawburg, France, where I am an American expat. So my cookie dilemma is that most French people in my life love when I make cookies because they associate cookies just with chocolate chip. So learning how much versatility there is in cookie making is really fun. But most of the French people in my life have a way lower tolerance for sugar than most the Americans in my life do. So I sometimes find myself reducing the amount of sugar but then it messes with the texture. So, what advice do you have on reducing the sugar on in cookies? And also, do you have a great recommendation for a not too overly sweet holiday cookie that I can make to impress my friends? Thanks.

That's a great question. Also, that's so funny cuz like I studied abroad in France and there's definitely a difference between a biscuit, which is like the English would say biscuit to say cookie. There's definitely a difference between that and like a cookie. Like a cookie. cookie is like like a chocolate chip cookie is exactly what she said. So, you're thinking about the different forms of sweetener out there. There's obviously brown sugar, white sugar, different types of sugars. There's maple syrup, there's honey. I wouldn't necessarily go with swapping a maple syrup or a honey because they actually are a little bit sweeter by volume than actual sugar sugar. You know, brown sugar does have a little bit of a deeper flavor. So, if you have access to brown sugar, I think that that would honestly create like a little bit of a a richer nuance to the cookie itself rather than just like a granulated sugar cookie. In terms of reducing the amount of sugar, you're right, like the sugar is also there to add structure to the cookie. And so I would say tinker with the amount of fat that you're using in the recipe because that's also going to create more of an issue when you're like blending the butter and the sugar together in the beginning phases of mixing before you add the dry ingredients.

See, this is why baking intimidates me because if you want to mess with one thing, you have to mess with everything else.

Yeah. Yeah. And then if I was thinking about it, it's like if you go down on the sugar, then you go down on the fat, but then is the cookie going to be too dry? Because of the one like really great secret ingredient for a lot of cookies is water. Okay.

Water actually like really does help with a lot of moisture loss or like if a cookie is too dry. If she's going down to the sugar and then subsequently goes down the fat, maybe the cookie is going to be a little dry because the dry ingredients are kind of overwhelming that fat that's in there. Add a little bit of water in there and see what happens.

So, do you have a specific holiday cookie maybe she could bring to impress her her people that's not too sweet?

Yes. I would say I've got this chewy brownie cookie recipe that's topped with flaky salt. So, like if she's a chocolate lover,

I would say go with that because it's not too sweet. The chocolate flavor is like really chocolatey and also what offsets the sweetness also is a little bit of flaky salt on top.

You have some really interesting recipes and flavor combinations in the book. Some using really savory ingredients you don't necessarily see in cookie recipes all of the time. So, for example, the Filipino inspired recipe for the adobo chocolate chip that uses a full tablespoon of pink peppercorns, which I thought was very cool. Are there other savory ingredients you think should be on people's radar when it comes to elevating sweet baking?

Oh, totally. Miso. My mind immediately goes to miso.

Talk about miso.

Miso is so good in cookies. It's so good in cookies. It adds this level of savoriness that's just like really beautiful. Eric Kim has a go jang uh caramel cookie. Very good. They're so good. And go jang has like a natural sweetness to it. A lot of brands do. It just pairs really well and it adds this level of spice to it which I really love. Olive oil is another thing that people typically associate with savory, but in cookies in any baked good, but especially like a cookie with olive oil, delicious. that just gives it again this other level of flavor that you

don't know you wanted yet.

So, I want to ask you some very quick lightning round questions around common problems that people have with their cookies. So, you quickly diagnose what to do.

Okay.

Okay.

Cookies are too hard.

Overbaked.

Cookies are too cakey.

Ooh. Uh, too much flour, too much dry ingredient.

The cookies spread too much when baking,

improperly chilled, or too much fat or they're too close together.

Okay. Could be a number of things.

Could be another things.

Uh, cookies are burned on the bottom.

Check your sheet tray. Check your oven temp.

1,000%. You should buy.

So, don't don't rely on what your oven is telling you. Get an get a little thermometer that you can put inside your oven.

Oh, yeah. I think everybody should have an oven thermometer. My oven runs 50° hotter than

50°.

That's wild.

Yeah. Like I have to set it to 400 in order to bake something at 3.

I think I have the same problem. And I always am kind of subconsciously uh accounting for that when I'm cooking.

Yeah. Even like nice new ovens, like we have great ones at the studio. One of them always runs like if you set it to 350 it will be 400. If they're burning on the bottom, then there's too much heat that's coming in contact with the sheet tray before the rest of it can get baked through.

Be kind to yourself. It might not be a you problem.

Yeah. No, totally.

I know your equipment, too.

I wish there were more answers in life like that.

I know.

Yeah. 1,000%.

Okay, Van. Well, before we wrap, we always ask our guests one final question. What's the last thing you bought that you really loved?

My boooo. No. Uh,

I mean, I saw it today. I was like, "What is that? I've never seen one in real life."

And now I've seen my second one today.

Thank you so much for joining us. This was really, really fun.

Thank you. Oh, I had the best time. I could talk about cookies all day.

What a lovely conversation with Fawn Delight. He is great. I would love to receive a box of cookies from him just in case he's listening to this episode. Um,

I was kind of hoping he'd bring one in today actually.

What are you taking away from this conversation?

Well, I was reminded that I really should have a thermometer in my oven. I forgot that I should do that and I I will be doing that because it's not just an important thing for baking, but it's also for cooking. So, I don't have to live in mystery anymore.

You knew you couldn't trust your own oven.

mine because I'm not much of a baker and as I've discussed at length on this podcast, I don't really eat sweets because I'm non-dairy and whatever, whatever. I think I would go for the scale that he recommended and a spoonula because those are things that you can use for both baking and cooking. And you know, I love a good versatile kitchen tool.

I think the scale is another one of those things where you are mitigating variability. For me, I am going to grow up and get a cooling rack. Grow up. I know. It's just like And I'm going to get one that fits in a half sheet pan. I think it's It just sounds like it's worth it. Even if I use it

twice a year.

It's not just going to sit in your kitchen. You'll use it.

Von Rean's book is called Cookies. He is also host of the New York Times cooking YouTube series and newsletter called Bake Time. Check those out. If you want to learn anything else about the products we recommended today from Wire Cutter, check out our website. And thank you so so much for listening. Thanks. Bye

bye.

The Wire Cutter Show is executive produced by me, Rosie Garin, and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Mattie Maziello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Loausano, Alicia Etup, Rowan Nisto, Katherine Anderson, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wire Cutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fman is Wire Cutters editor and chief. I'm Kyra Blackwell. I'm Christine Sirette. And I'm Rosie Garin. Thank you for listening.

I'm not a two sweet person. Like I just ask my boyfriend. No. Um