hi everyone today we are talking to the man that makes us all look much better in photos and enable us to open 400 billion PDFs yearly wow named the top Co by glass store based on employee feedback please welcome shantanu Aran cheer and COO of adobe shantanu what an honor to have you on thank you so much for having me Nikolai it's a pleasure to be on your show a lot of people have um uh have heard about your your products and they use your things every day but just uh uh very briefly what are the main things that adobe do

named the top Co by glass store based on employee feedback please welcome shantanu Aran cheer and COO of adobe shantanu what an honor to have you on

thank you so much for having me Nikolai it's a pleasure to be on your show

a lot of people have um uh have heard about your your products and they use your things every day but just uh uh very briefly what are the main things that adobe do

well adobe's uh you know Mission has always been uh changing the world through digital experiences

and you know the company was founded uh when we invented postcript which was the way that people actually printed uh

and you know subsequently we've invented many groundbreaking Innovations but three real lines of businesses uh

we talk about creativity so any piece of creative content that you see out there uh we hope a piece of adobe software was used to create it

whether it's packaging on a bottle of water whether it's the video you're looking on a web whether it's you know a image that you're editing

the second business is as you mention so so in there for instance you would have Photoshop as one of the products exactly

Photoshop is one of the products illustrator is one of the products for vector and artwork and logo creation

certainly Premier for editing videos all the special effects is After Effects uh and so so that's the creative business

our newest product there is Express uh which is enabling this vision for creativity for all so anybody who is a story to tell whether you're a k through2 student or the largest Enterprise in the world that's the creative business

probably we're best known for that

and as you point out I have to I have to tell you I did a weekend course in Photoshop and I love it so much fun

that's awesome and we're making it better and easier

we just announced some really cool stuff at Max in London as it relates to how we use generative AI in that

the second business is uh everything to do with PDF and we call that accelerating document productivity automating inefficient paper-based processes

uh and that was uh you know as I said the PDF it's called the document Cloud as well

perhaps the most recent business uh that we have uh incubated and created from scratch is enabling any business uh to engage digitally with their customers so we call that the experience Cloud powering uh digital experiences for Enterprises

and that's close to a $5 billion business for us as well now Nikolai

so uh three different areas of businesses that adobe is in now

not many software companies have been around for more than 40 years what's been the key to this

in our DNA I would say uh at our core we recognize we're a product company uh

and as long as you can innovate and create fundamental uh product platforms that stand the test of time I mean postcript is still you know the premier way in which people print uh Photoshop is the way in which people edit images PDF's all about the document platform

and so I think you know the reinvention uh has always been part of the DNA

we went from a company that just licensed software for a few Hardware manufacturers when we did postcript we built an applications business uh

as you are aware we completely transitioned and we were the first major software company uh to transition to the cloud

and then we created the digital marketing business

so I think it's fundamental reinvention and a willingness to make that investment to invest in deep technology I think has been Key to Our Success

now what's what's kind of left in the company from the founders because you talk about the founders as being important mentors for you as well

well uh you know uh it's uh interesting yesterday we had a event and we call it the founders award and uh this was started about 20 years ago uh Nikolai

and I I think you know when John and Chuck started the company uh the two things that really motivated them was the what and you know how can you have impact with fundamental Technology Innovation but also the how

and I think Adobe has always been a company that's been known for uh you know being a great place to work

and the founders award is given to people who represent not just what they do but how they do it

and so I would say culture uh is uh you know their uh biggest contribution to the company

very very simply they used to say something as uh straightforward as we want to create a company that has great impact and where great people want to work

and you know captured in that single sentence actually is such deep insight into how you build great lasting companies

how do you keep the speed up in a company you know I've seen some research on an Hills and during the 15year lifetime of uh of an anel the the speed of action slows down a lot so that when The Neighbor an attacks they basically take you over so how do you make sure that the Adobe anel isn't isn't killed

it's something that you know I think larger companies have to keep working on

maybe I have uh you know the luxury and the privilege of having been here so long but one of the things I would say is that you know I mean software has an scurve right

and so there are uh things at the beginning of that scurve where you're incubating or you're investing in new fundamental platforms and there are other comp other products like postcript which are more mature

so I I think the first thing I would say as it relates to Pace is you have to be aware of which part of that scurve you are on and not every one of them has to innovate at that pace uh

because you know perhaps the customers are not willing uh to even welcome that kind of innovation uh

the second thing I would say is you have to be impatient but it's uh important to be thoughtful about what you're impatient for

and so I I think Pace to your point is a really important thing uh but I'm not sure one size fits all in terms of pace

and so if everybody was at a frenetic Pace uh maybe you're not actually managing the company effectively enough

but when you need that sense of urgency uh I think one of the ways in which you create pace is by INSP iction

I've always said Nikolai people do what you inspect not what you expect

and so I think you know constant inspection and making sure that as Leaders we're removing the obstacles that allows people to uh proceed at the pace that they want

I I would say the fundamental product person wants to go as fast as they want right

and so I think uh bureaucracy sometimes comes in and potentially slows thing down

and so you know our job is removing obstacles

so for the things that require incredible Pace fast decision making are we providing the environment that allows the people who are actually in charge of that to do that

where is the uh border between uh inspection and uh uh control and micromanagement

I again I I I don't think uh you know we control and micromanagement but I think inspection is really important

I mean I think that's the role which is you know are we clear about you know uh What uh uh the teams are focused on what the key objectives are

and uh for example yesterday you know AI generative AI is certainly you know the buzz around uh the industry right now

and so you know when you're inspecting it it's it's about having a conversation

so the word inspection may suggest you know uh more formalism but I think having that conversation and having time and what is our most valuable commodity time is our most valuable commodity

and so when you're spending time as a leadership team as well as with individuals um I I think that's what you have to do as a company

and so you know I this is not about micromanagement it's actually about freeing people to innovate at the pace at which they want

but if decisions need to be made what's the monetization how are we going to go to market who are the potential Partners how do we think about you know uh how we get the message out I think facilitating and enabling that is a big part of what you have to do

you mentioned AI which of course is at the center of innovation just now and intuitively you have thought that working with the types of software you do um kind of the creative processes and so on AI would be like a real threat so how do you perceive it

every single massive technology shift um is either a a phenomenal Tailwind if you Channel it effectively or to your point it can be a disruption or a threat

I mean when you know the cloud came along and we said oh my God this offers us such a different business model and the ability for us to have all this data that you know people can have access to their creativity wherever they go

and I think the same is true of uh Ai and generative AI

I mean the buzz as you know is all about generative AI

Derby's been deploying AI in our products because if uh computers what are they good at

computer Compu are good at pattern matching computers are good at you know automating mundane tasks

and when you think about creativity in particular if you can enable somebody who has this creative idea they're trying to create something they're trying to communicate something but the thing that they fear the most is the blank page right

I mean how do you start this creative process

and I think generative AI is this massive enabler to allow people if you're ideating or if you're prototyping or if you're brainstorming to start that

so I believe that you know AI will enable people to be more productive they will uh you know eliminate mundane task it will allow you to automate things that need to happen and it will allow inspiration

and so uh used effectively any piece of technology is going to dramatically expand the addressable Market

I mean this is now about when computers came and the fact that we democratized desktop publishing you know the market share and our install base went up dramatically

when we moved to the cloud and we said hey now you can have access to this at a monthly subscription it expanded dramatically

when we added mobile applications it expanded dramatically

and I think the same is true

I think you I everybody has this creative spark and if you can use the product you said you took the Photoshop uh lesson over a weekend we just want you to be able to say hey I want to take this image I want to remove this I want to have a conversational with it so so do you so

do you think generative AI will will increase the creativity acity uh the creative activity in society overall

massively I I I think there's no question

I mean when you think about all these new media platforms that have emerged uh every one of them has dramatically changed it

now that introduces different challenges which is now somebody who's doing that creative expression how do you stand out

you know how do you create a following if that's what you're trying to create

but the sheer volume of what goes on is going to massively increase

where does firefly come in here that's one of your products

you know when we thought about AI uh first you know we said to ourselves we represent the creative community

and if you think about uh generative AI specifically we say there are three layers to how we should think about it uh

the first layer is the interfaces what are people actually using and how do they use these products to accomplish their objectives

because I think you and I and others wake up in the morning and we don't say oh I want to use the the computer we say we want to get something done

and so at the interface layer what are we doing to enable our products to be simpler

the second thing we said is where can we leverage other Foundation models that exist and where should we be creating Our Own Foundation models

because the foundation model is sort of the brain and it's the center of activity of what's happening

and so we said imaging video we need to create our own models because understanding that process of what the models really can enable somebody to do

when you do something like generator filp perhaps the most widely adopted and accelerated adoption of a feature in Photoshop in the history of Photoshop it means that we're thinking about you know how this product can be used to accomplish something

and then data and the data is like okay how are these models trained where did the data come from

and so I think Adobe was very thoughtful about all three areas uh

We've innovated dramatically on the interface layer you can now with reader have a coners ational interface

in experience Cloud if you're a marketer you can say hey I want to run a campaign for this segment

and in Photoshop you can do things and express you can do things like generative fill and an AI assistant that enables you to take what's in your mind

what are the underlying models you utilize here

that's a great question

and even phase one of that was Firefly both as an ideation and a website where you can go and you can just prototype things and you can ideate and you can brainstorm and you can in a collaborative Way start your ideation process

firefly.com represents that destination uh that allows people to do you know it's a playground it's a playground for creativity

uh the foundation models we've created Our Own Foundation models in imaging in video uh

but also at the national uh Association of broadcasters Show recently the NAB it's the big video show Nikolai we showed how we can actually integrate other models as well

and so we showed whether you in Premier you can think about whether it's open AI Sora or whether it's Runway ml or whether it's a paa you can actually create and integrate these models

and so that's why I like this taxonomy that we have of what are we doing at the interface layer what are we doing at the foundation models layer and what kind of data are we using to train whatever models

we were differentiated in that we said we will train our models only on daily that we have licensed for

and so we can indemnify a customer like you

and so if you're using our model we can indemnify you uh

but you know the world has other models and we have to be supportive of the other models that other customers might using

so Firefly specifically is about the naming for our models and it's also this you know playground that we have as a destination site uh

we're using open AI for text

so when we use you know things like in PDF and you want to try and create a summary of a PDF or have a conversational interface we will support it

but we've also described how other large language models whether it's from Nvidia whether it's from Microsoft whether it's from Google whether it's from open AI we will support those

because you know adobi has always won in recognizing that there's a heterogeneous world out there

you know we supported Mac and PCs from day one we support Android and iOS from day one

and I I think our job is leveraging the platforms that exist and AI is a new platform

so so shantu so when now open AI comes out with chat GPT FS which supposedly according to samman who was on the podcast um says it's going to be 100 times more complex than uh for how is that going to change the playground

well you know I I I think you know clearly what open AI is on is this sort of uh you know ambitious agenda to do AGI right you know general intelligence

and I think when you think about what will happen with the next version of Chad GPT you know we've gone from you know uh sort of summarization and you know answering questions uh to reasoning

and so I think you know we're starting to tackle some of these hard problems of can computers reason

I mean it's mindboggling to think perhaps that a baby born today for the first time perhaps in Civilization a computer may be able to not just have more information than a baby but also to be reasoned better than a baby

and so I think what'll happen with the next version of of you know whether it's open AI models or Google's models or the Adobe models is you can start to do reasoning

what does that mean what does I mean for a creative when you're thinking about creating an image it's in you know it's got a certain set of Dimensions

when you say I want to create a video and I want to see a person walking down a street and you know crossing the light you have to understand physics right

I mean you have to understand physics so you don't go in the ground you have to understand physics so you don't hit you know the uh building that you're walking into

and so I think we're going to start to expand on this model of you know thinking about reasoning certainly resolution certainly you know inference

and as you know with AI uh there's a lot of activity that's right now happening with training which is everybody's training these models

the real value is going to come from inference right and how people use it

and I think financial services companies like you you're going to use AI to do Financial reasoning and perhaps you know faster invest uh you know decisions

and so I think we're walking up the stack from you know just being able to do something like a text to an image or you know a prompt creating a a Pros to how do I reason and how do I think about it

and it's exciting but are you worried that there'll be one of these models which means that you don't need your overlay

I I don't think so

Ian what I always says people who use AI will replace people who don't use AI um

and you know I mean I mean everybody talks about this is going to replace humans

well the place where AI is probably the most advanced is in software writing uh right

I mean when you think about what's happened with the ability to say I want to create a program uh that's what's the most expansive

I don't know if uh you know at your institution you're reducing the number of software engineers and developers

we're all saying how do we make them more productive how do we allow them to you know do more at the same cost

so there will be an efficiency increase and I do think there like every generation of Technology some things will get disrupted but overall it creates more opportunity

and I certainly believe that for creativity

I mean how worried about are you about deep fakes I mean you should be the world you should be the world champion in deep fakes

I that's a great question and I'll get to that

but I the thing I wanted to say on that previous question also was that you know you need a soul for creativity

and you know I think that's the part where human Ingenuity will always be good

uh deep fix we actually started uh when when we thought about Adobe and we said listen we create the world's content and it's really critical for us to also take responsibility for what's happening with content

and so we created this thing you know it's called Uh content credentials

think of it as a nutrition label uh Nikolai

and when we started this we said um we have one part in the chain uh but we have now got thousands of parts Partners who've signed up for this content uh authenticity initiative as it's called

and what the content authenticity initiative is camera manufacturers when they take a picture they're putting like a digital signature on that picture saying it was created with this camera at this time taken by Nikolai

when you edit it in our piece of software we stamp that with you know what's happened

if somebody who's in the content distribution game you know whether it's meta whether it's New York Times whether it's the BBC they've all signed up to carry those credentials

so I think the plumbing and the infrastructure for deep fakes is all there

I'll tell you what the the real challenge is

so when you talk about deep fix the ability to look at the provence of a piece of content is all there

the question is will a consumer want to see where that came from who created it who might have changed it

and so now we have this ability we're working with the US government

you you know 50% I think it's 50% of the world's population is going to have an election I think in a 12-month period some of them have certainly happened uh

and so in that particular context what we are saying is when you see a piece of content you can see this label which says you know it says content credential think of it as a nutrition label

if you click on it it will tell you it will tell you who created it when it was created when it was perhaps altered

the question is how many people actually read the nutrition label when you're eating food

and it's the same issue with content how many people are going to say I want to know where that piece of content was created

so I would say the technology companies the people Distributing this media we've all participated in the Deep fakes uh you know sort of uh life cycle to understand how we can bring that value

now the consumer has to say uh when somebody uh that you know is saying I want to see that piece of content are they going to insist on evaluating the content credential

cuz we neither you nor I can come in the way of people creating content

it's the question is the consumer how much do they care about where they came from

hopefully that makes sense

absolutely the development in this field is uh I mean the speed is just unbelievable right

the speed the brain supplied here unlimited amount of capital you know the curves are just exponential uh to a degree we've never seen before

you and I we are we are of course uh still a very young and uh and so on but we you know we're not like 22 do you think um do you think it's a disadvantage for us to really understand and grasp the possibilities here is is your experience good or bad

again I I I think it puts puts more uh you know of a challenge for us it it for sure Keeps Us young right

yes I I think it keeps us young

and you know I mean the best part of my job is when I can just sit down with 10 people that we've hired from University or people who are heading up this research and say educate me right

I mean educate me on that

and I think you know you have to recognize your role uh in the company Nikolai which is my role is not you know understanding to the minut detail the difference between a diffusion model and a Transformer model and the math associated with that

but the implications of what that means and how do we Channel you know uh people into you know align them into create whatever objectives they are and then how do we support it

and so I I think our role changes as it relates to in an organization leading it

and then as consumers you know you know we will see the benefits right

we will see the benefits when we go to a website and somebody knows exactly who we are

you know this is our experience Cloud opportunity

I mean the experience Cloud vision for Adobe was born with this Insight that when we moved our entire business model uh from a two-tier distribution model to engaging directly with customers on the website we were like hey we should build the infrastructure nobody has automated marketing right

I mean supply chain was automated Finance was automated HR was automated

but how many times do you go to a website Nikolai and you're like why doesn't it know everything that I've done with this website and why do I have to enter my data and why can't it tell me if I like this piece of content hey give me five recommendations that are truly relevant for me

and so I think AI is going to be you

so as consumers I think you and I will certainly experience a lot of the benefits of this

but as people running large organizations I think our job is understanding the technology to a level so that we can actually appreciate uh what it can and cannot do

but then channeling That Into You know really understanding how we evolve our businesses to take advantage of it and not have our head in the sand

no shantanu you're a sailor so just to use a sailing term here let's change Tac and uh and uh sail back to uh to India where you where you grew up now how do you think your Indian upbringing shaped you

well you know I I I think growing up in India there were a few things uh that were true when I grew up that are again still certainly true

I mean the first was uh the importance of Education

I mean I was really fortunate my parents emphasized very deeply uh the need for me to invest in myself

I mean investment in education is an investment in yourself

and so I you know I I I think the first thing that was uh really inculcated in me my mother actually taught she was a professor of American literature so I think they instilled in me this curiosity

my father was an entrepreneur and so you know I I learned from him you know how one you know has to innovate

and um I think the other part of the Indian culture that has certainly served me well is we tend to take a longterm View

and so you know I think all of us running companies yes table Stakes is executing on it on a quarter by quarter basis but fundamental Innovation takes time

so I would say uh the importance of Education intellectual curiosity and you know taking this long uh term View and outlook on how you build a business uh that is built for greatness I think those were the two things that perhaps you know I was I was really influenced from my uh culture

do you think that's something you have in common with the likes of SAA Adela AJ banga and the other top Indian leaders in America

well the two that you mentioned I don't know if you know Nikolai all three of us went to the same high school

I know

yeah and so I I think we do

I mean you know the other you know it's so gratifying to see uh you know so many and it's pretty it's pretty amazing how many high schools are there in India

oh there hundreds of

I mean you know the thing that India does have is a population right when you have a billion

but uh this was in a a town called Hyderabad which has now become the epicenter for you know a lot of technology

in those days and uh this was an incredible school it was modeled after a British public school they really uh emphasized an all around education

but if you think about it in that you know I came to this country in 1984 60 or 70% of my graduating class would come to the US for higher studies

I mean you know the US was this phenomenal place where uh it allowed people to come you know it was the land it is the land of opportunity

and it gave us you know this gift of Education uh

I would say today not a lot of those people are coming right I mean from uh institutions in India maybe 5% of people are coming

because there's so much opportunity in India

I mean you know I think the economy in India is exploding and perhap I have said if I was graduating right now I'm not sure I would come to the US given how much opportunity there was

but to answer your question in those days the entire generation of people who are now you know uh in the US we all came here

we came here to pursue a MERS in computer science or a PhD or an MBA and we stayed because here's where the opportunity is

now there's clearly a reverse uh you know migration

and then there was a time when when you guys went through kind of the glass ceiling and certainly everybody needed to have an Indian CEO to be credible

well I was fortunate

I mean I I have to say I was per you know perhaps one of the more uh tenured CEOs

and you know when when I got my job uh in 2007 as CEO I mean I was it was a incredible honor for me Nikolai

and uh it's so gratifying to see what Satya and Sund and you know uh certainly Arin in Tech and lakman in Starbucks and you know

every time you read about another Indian you know your your heart fills with pride

you mentioned um that you were long-term that you worked um on strategy for a longer period of time SAA Adela he uh talks about the importance of empathy uh you talks about you talk about you know mentoring coaching and so on um if you were to elaborate a bit on what being Indian means to leadership

I I would say the thing growing up in India especially people in my generation you had to be incredibly resourceful

you know there's this Indian expression I don't know if you've heard of it called jugad

and what jugad means is you know it's a way of hey people will figure things out

and you know growing up in India not everything I mean there so much bureaucracy if you wanted to get anything done you had to be incredibly resourceful

I don't take no for an answer when I want something done I'm like okay let's keep brainstorming let's keep thinking

and you know I I'd rather you know Aspire for something incredibly and fall a little short then you know try and just set your bar so low that you can easily cross it

I'll tell you one thing shant if I had taken no pronoun we wouldn't have gotten you on these podcasts because uh you're not an easy man to get

I apologize for that I apologize

you you said that you said that if you were young again you would probably stay in India how do you see the development in India going forward

now I I think it's just incredible

I mean the investment in infrastructure that we've done education was always you know important

I think you pointed out earlier access to Capital in AI um

and you know I think the people growing up there uh you know the world is more flat uh

I I worry nowadays sometimes that postco people are building up walls again uh

but I would say the Indian entrepreneur today when I grew up the Indian entrepreneur was focused on making a market in India uh

today the Indian entrepreneur has Global aspirations

you know you have access to Capital you have access to talent

I mean all of us as immigrants to this country had to adapt to the US

and so um I when I grew up there wasn't really uh tech industry in India that's changed

there wasn't access to Capital

I I I think you know when I grew up um when you took a loan from A bank to set up a firm I mean the interest rates were something like 18 or 20%

I mean you know prohibitively expensive to create businesses

the notion of equity and Venture Capital just didn't exist

and so but you know this is where I think it doesn't matter whether it's Hyderabad or you know rest or or other places I mean access to talent and capital has become a worldwide phenomenon

and I really hope that you know postco I know these Supply chains everybody has said hey we need to have our supply chains closer to us

but there's such a power of having free trade across the the globe which I hope we don't you know go away from that

what have you taken from sailing you represented IND giant sailing uh

you know sailing in those days was uh you know just an incredible passion

I mean you were one with nature

and maybe one of the things you recognize is you know to some degree when you're sailing I I understand you are also uh you know passionate about sailing

I'm you know you're with this force of Nature and you recognize to some degree you know that you're a small small Cog in in the world

but you're then trying to channel this wind and you know the waves

I mean you know sailing in Bombay where you're sailing in the waves was just this it's this incredible Rush that comes

you know and comparatively how you constantly trying to improve uh um

sadly I've given up sailing Nikolai when I came to this country I said you know U education was the thing I focused on and family and now golf is the thing

but I'll tell you what I like with sailing you know you could be you could be in the lead and then the win changes yep and you are lost next race

you have to take the same amount of risk

and so uh it's so so let's say you do you think about table tennis there are just no external factors

sailing max amount of external factors

and so I just think there's so much to learn from it

I agree how often do you get to sale

way too little because uh I'm in the office too much um

now you are one of the um most well-liked CEOs uh and we see that from surveys at glore and so on what um is it important for a leader to be liked

you know I hope people would say they respect me more than they like me and I think you know um

I'm also very transparent about the values uh you know that are important to me

we talk about creating the future we talk about being genuine we talk about you know owning the outcome and raising the bar

and if I model those values then you know people hopefully at least say um that you know he he's true to what he uh stands for

and I think people would say I'm I'm I'm approachable

and you know I I I like that we are a very egalitarian company and it's the way Silicon Valley is

but you know every time you get that I will say it's humbling

it's humbling to hear that the things that you do are appreciated by people

how do you coach people

you know early in my career I I had this incredible mentor and um he challenged me a lot

uh I think in me he saw you know a spark of somebody who could potentially accomplish something and it was a different management style

and you know initially I struggled with it a little bit because he would ask me to do something and I get it done and he's like yeah yeah whatever you know that was yesterday why aren't you doing this and why aren't you doing that

and he would always push me and challenge me

and later I realized that you know I he saw in me something hopefully that he said this guy is capable of more and my job is pushing him to do more

and I would say that influenced me a lot as my management style which is my style is all about saying how do you set unreasonable expectations and people amaze you with the Ingenuity

and so um hopefully I'm providing opportunity to people um

I believe in a in a management style with the leadership team especially at the executive team where yes they all wear a functional hat you might run a business you might be your CFO you might be hit of uh you know people you might be your GC

but first and foremost you're all people who represent as the executive team the company

and so that's been my management style which is like I'm very I information in too many companies was deemed to be power

I have exactly the opposite leadership style I believe you give people access to information and that's what makes them more productive

so I I would say you know again there isn't one style that works

I'm not you know arrogant enough to believe that that's the way one should operate

but if people know what your style is then hopefully you know the people who Embrace that style and resonate with how they want to be managed they can Thrive

and so that's that's how would coach which is like I'm always available I'm accessible

hopefully people wouldn't say I'm not a microman but but and somebody gave me this expression so I I will uh you know give credit to them which is they said management for me is a little bit of you have to have your head in the cloud and your feet on the ground

and I am in the details Nikolai as well because I believe that if you're not in the details and if you don't have I I don't know how you set a vision for the company without understanding a little bit of the details

and conversely if you're only in the details and you're not you know uh uh setting a vision so you know

but my management style is evolving

and one last thing but but you you because you mentioned three things uh plant the flag Road building and and um unreasonable expectations what is it mean to plant the flag

I think planting the flag when we started off uh I'll give you an experience with this uh you know I'll give you the experience Cloud business

when I took over in 2009 we bought this company called in 2007 in 2009 we bought omniture

omniture was all about you know uh getting analytics

and we said hey data is going to be important and analytics is going to be important um

and we said you know why is it that uh Adobe was always about the art we allowed creativity but we weren't about the science

you know that old marketing adage 50% of my marketing is working I just don't know which 50%

so we said we should create the new Next Generation marketing stack

and why is it that digital marketing does doesn't exist

we didn't really know at that point everything that needed to be done and how that were evolved

but you get comfortable with ambiguity I think as Leaders you and I have to get very comfortable with ambiguity

and so that was for me planting the flag which is saying we're going to go create this stack

and how did you build a road then

well you build the road you know uh we said to our board when we actually acquired omniture that this is going to be one of many

and we have to through both organic Innovation and inorganic acquisition

so you know we bought omniture then we bought day software we built a real-time CDP uh completely from scratch

the experience Cloud you know now a 7800 million business we build that completely from scratch

and so uh you understand what the building blocks are um associated with it and you're ruthless about execution um

and you know you keep going from the long range what you're trying to accomplish in the short range

and uh that's what I say and I I was perhaps when I took over uh in all cander I was probably better at the road building because I was Chief Operating Officer and I needed to get my head around everything

but you realize when you're in a room and you're trying to motivate or inspire a room 50% of the room probably doesn't care about what they want to do tomorrow

they want to know what hill you want them to climb and you know what is the you know are you're trying to win a World Series what are you trying to do

that's planting the flag

the other half of the room doesn't care about you know where you want to go they're like hey tell me what I want to do because I feel motivated by that

and so as Leaders we have to change our management style to inspire people to do their best

if we don't recognize that then I think we are not recognizing what our jobs are which is our job is making them productive

our job is not saying hey you got to manage the uh the way I want you to

and so I think recognizing that they're different people with different motivations who get inspired by different things and can cont contribute in different ways

you also say that part of your job is to set unreasonable expectations what is unreasonable expectations the same as some kind of reality Distortion field or what is it

I hope not I I actually hope not

I don't think it's reality Distortion

I for me the unreasonable expectations is saying if you can connect the dots from where you are today to everything you want to go

I mean you you talked a lot about generative AI

you know our hypothesis with generative Ai and our assertions are very clearly hey this is going to be a massive Tailwind if we enable people to create

exactly how that manifests itself in video Etc we don't know

and so the unreasonable expectations are to say I want you to create this video model I want you to create an animation model

I don't know exactly how that's coming but that's where the Ingenuity of those developers and the engineers and the product people comes in place

and so uh I think reality Distortion is different which is you're in denial perhaps sometimes of what's Happening

whereas I think unreasonable expectations is about actually in many ways at least for me saying I have more faith in what you can do than perhaps you have in yourself

and I think that to them they seem the unreasonable

and then you know when we moved to the cloud and we said okay we want to add so many subscribers

people were like I can't add up to that and you're being unreasonable

I'm like no we should go for it and we should figure it out

and then you know we greatly exceeded it

I mean and I this is where I that's what I call unreasonable expectations

who do you ask for advice

I have a great self-help group

you know I was I was in YPO when I uh you know at one point in my career I'm neither why which is Young nor am IP anymore but um

John Dono uh you know one of my best friends uh

John became CEO of eBay PayPal when I took over as CEO of um Adobe we were both the number guys

and so having somebody that you can be completely yourself and talk about you know what needs to get done and you know learn from them over time that self-help group is IM IM immense

where do you meet

uh well he and I have uh you know this passion for golf but otherwise we we get together for dinner

you know we'll get together for dinner and we're just like okay we know

or we call each other on the phone

and um you know when I have something that I want to run by somebody you know the real thing is there're a sounding board for us correct Nikolai

and there're a sounding board

George Roberts uh you know the founder of KKR uh I'm fortunate enough to have got to know George Roberts really well

and you know the advice that he gives and to see you know the passion that he has for driving business and uh staying you know very current and putting money to work I mean that's something that I've learned from him

which is like you know I I don't use the word risk I use the word invest

Ms we're paid right in our jobs to make investments some of them work some of them don't

but hopefully you know we have a better track record

so those are two among the others there's romesh wadwani who's an incredibly successful Indian entrepreneur

so I'm blessed um

I I actually probably create fewer friends but deeper friendships

I'm not a big networker but that's my self-help group

and I I I wouldn't spare it

and then you know your family your family always is there you know and thick and thin and

when you have I I used to say this apparently there's some research that's been done when you have young kids uh they are more willing to you know tell you you know the truth than anybody else

and you have to seek out these truth tellers

and you know uh so your wife my two kids they will tell me like they won't sugarcoat anything and that's invaluable

because unfortunately as we get more senior in our roles everybody's telling us how good the ideas that we have are

and you have to seek out those truth tellers

new college graduates when you hire them they're far more willing because they ask you the tough questions

uh you know I to say why are we doing this why are we doing that

and so I think we all have the ability to do it the question is are we going to seek them out and how do we put into practice what we learn from them right

one last thing I'll say one last thing I'll say serving on a public board

I serve on one board

yeah you're on fisa right

I'm on fisa

what are you what are what do you learn from from being on the board of fiser

well uh you know talk about unreasonable expectations you know when Albert talked about moonshots and solving Co right I mean they that was an unreasonable expectation that was a moonshot uh Investments um

if you think about Pharma when people who are running Pharma companies are making medicinal bets in therapeutic areas chances are you know in many cases uh you know their successor might reap the benefits of it right

because of the timetable associated with uh you know medicinal development

and so I learn again that long range view of what needs to be done the global nature of you know what happens

so you're always learning the question is is your mind open to that learning

I mean every experience that you have with everybody when when I hear these questions I'm probably going to go back Nikolai and say why did he ask me that question and what was perhaps behind it and what should I take away from it

you know as somebody who is in the investment business and you're thinking about it clearly you're trying to piece this picture together

so I I think every interaction is a learning experience you just have to be open to it

talking about boards um you you are both the CEO of the and the chair of adobe and as a shareholder we uh generally think those roles should be split why do you think the same person should have them and why are we wrong

well I know in Europe uh you know clearly a lot of the European investors believe in that

and I think what are you looking for in that

I would say what you're looking for in that is a couple of things one is you're looking for is there the right amount of uh whether you call it accountability whether you call it transparency that exists in a board so that you know there is the right amount of dialogue that's happening

and you know is that conversation happening

u i I would say uh to you as an investor I would say a couple of things first is the board you know is there good uh board refreshment

are the people on the board people whom you would look at and say hey are these people who have uh you know created uh tremendous value

and are they going to be people who are just yes people or are there people who are going to push back

I mean Dave Li uh Dave Ricks from Eli Lily you know one of our recent board members you've seen the tremendous success

so I I would say U and I I I do think the information asymmetry that's happening between you know people who run a company and the board it's increasing right given how complicated the business is

and so if you have a lead director and the lead director has the ability to you know engage with the board you have the private sessions um

you have the ability to you know create an alternate mechanism by which you're doing great corporate governance um

and I think the US philosophy is trust somebody until they proven untrustworthy

and if I'm not then you know what's what's the board's number one job Nikolai

the board's number one job is hiring and Fir in the CEO

it's kind of difficult for you to fire yourself right

uh well I not really

I mean the lead director can call a meeting and the if the lead director is like whether there's ethical issues or performance issues the lead director needs to be able to do that

and so I I again I I realize the European style is different

but you know I I believe that with speed that needs to be done uh I have the ability to do it and I have to earn it

I don't take it for granted I will say that

and you know every year and when I was named chair it was a massive honor for me it's not one that I take lightly uh Nikolai

and so hopefully you as an investor feel good about that

okay this is not a a perk it's a honor and it needs to be earned and it needs to be uh you know refreshed

absolutely shantonu if you are not allowed to say golf in what other the ways do your reles

well you know I I I love the time with my family I love traveling um you know I love traveling um

where is your favorite place to travel to

uh Hawaii uh the big island on Hawaii is my favorite place to travel in the world uh

it is a place where you know the plane door opens when you land in Hawaii and you breathe into that air and you know you can feel your blood pressure going down and you think you're best

so Hawaii

and when you are on the beach what do you read or what do you read generally

you know I I like to have three or four books that I'm reading actually

I I'm a person that you know when I'm reading u i so I'm reading uh I like sports books I like reading about you know people who have defied the odds um

I like mystery uh you know I I've read a lot of mystery growing up um

I read less management books uh if I read the management books I typically skim them

if it's written by a friend of mine or somebody that I know uh then I read it you know uh

and I I read a little bit about history not enough

I mean that that's one regret Nikolai I don't read as much as I did Growing Up uh

and I really I really should get back to it more

I I get great pleasure in Reading uh but I I'm not doing as much as I should

you know it's priorities right

we all don't have as much time as uh we would like

lastly we have uh tens of thousands of young people listening to these podcast what what is your advice to them

you know first I would say the world's your oyster right

I mean uh it is just an incredible time to pursue your uh passions

uh I mean as we said um access to Capital exists uh you know uh access to information exists right now with how much of you know that is being democratized

and so pursue your passions

I mean I was fortunate in that I didn't follow the conventional path

when I did my MBA everybody said hey you now have to go into you know product management or business management

and I'm like I would like Building Products I'm going to build it

and so I think people really do their best work when you come to work in the morning and you don't think it's work you come because you have a passion you can't wait to get out of bed

and so find something that gives you that feeling which is like I like being here you know I like engaging with people

and if you're doing it because you think it's the right thing or you know it's a step along the way and you hate it but you know you believe it's good for your career I it it's not going to work

and so Follow Your Passion

well you for sure have followed yours and your uh love and passion for what you do is coming through just coming through so so loud and clear

so uh it's been really an honor to have you on here and uh a big thanks for taking the time

no thank you so much for having me and I really appreciate it

and I look forward to maybe uh you know sailing together when we're both in the same city

that would be that would be a blast

absolutely

can't wait take care thank you