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Narrator: Love now and fall in love. I love love stronger than anything. For the love, love. And I love you more than anything. There's love. love from the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. And today I'm talking to Jess Sakira Wise. Okay, I'm going to just get right into it and say that Jess is into group sex. She has been for a very long time. And specifically, she likes to attend sex parties. Jess tells me that when she first started getting into the sex party scene years ago, the vibe was decidedly not great. It was male-dominated, heteronormative, and those were things Jess was trying to use group sex to escape from. So, Jess decided to start throwing her own sex parties. And what started as a passion is now her job. Today, she tells me what she's learned about how to organize a great orgy. Because it turns out sex parties aren't just about sex. They're about communication and curiosity and allowing yourself to want what you really want. And those are things I think we could all apply to our own sex lives, no matter how many people are involved.

Anna: Jess Zakira Wise, welcome to Modern Love.

Jess: Thank you so much.

Anna: Jess, a big part of your life is organizing play parties. This is what some people might call orgies or sex parties. You call them play parties. How does one get into this line of work?

Jess: Well, I should start by saying nobody teaches you how to do this work. Nobody trains you. You can't get a degree in this. You don't get a certificate. Um, you just kind of fall into it usually because it's something you're curious about. And that was absolutely the case for me.

Anna: Were you always sexually open-minded? What did that look like for you?

Jess: Yeah, I think so. So, I grew up Bay Areaish and I think from a young age was very sexually curious. Like I really like the idea of exploring sexually and being sexually open. Um I also think that you know I had an early high school experience where I had group sex and that was amazing. It just kind of felt like oh this is what we should be doing. Like why are we only having sex with people that we want to be in a relationship with? That feels so silly because how do you practice? Like how do you get good at stuff? You kind of glossed over this and again, you know, you were young so let's just say that but an early experience with group sex. Can you tell me as much as you want to share about that because that does feel rare to me and to have a good experience with that nonetheless.

Jess: So we were at a house party and we were just hanging out like we normally do and there was attraction and I think I've always felt how do I put this? Um I like everybody. I think I can find something attractive about 98% of people and I really like that connection and just being like, "Oh, I see you in this moment." Um, and when that happens, like there's kind of this I feel um an inspiration to like connect as deeply as we feel comfortable connecting and taking that like pulling on that thread as deeply as I can go. And that can mean physically, sexually. Um, and so even at kind of a young age, I was just really interested in like, okay, like I'm in this environment, we all are feeling really good. Like what if I just kiss this person that I'm kind of having feelings about?

Jess: And so that's it just kind of evolved like it was a very organic, just very wholesome. I think people often when they think about group sex or orgies or sex parties, they think it's like so salacious and just this, you know, rodeo of a time. And really most of the time I find it's really like sweet and tender and evolves sort of out of just intimacy.

Anna: Yeah. Hanging with friends.

Jess: Hanging. I mean Yeah.

Anna: You're describing this and it went from being sort of like a I don't know in my mind maybe the stereotypical pictures like horny teen movie to like you're chilling with your friends and the way you describe it I think is really I get it. You're like I'm the kind of person that once they see this thread of connection I want to pull on it and take it to the next level. obviously consensually. Let's say that. So, this was an early experience that sort of informed your preferences or your desires. Maybe I'll ask this too, like after that experience, early experience with um group sex, how did you leave that interaction feeling?

Jess: I mean, I felt amazing and it also felt like I had been lied to my whole life because

Anna: Okay. Yeah.

Jess: You know, I think there was so much focus on romantic love with one person and I had been told that that was the pinnacle of experience and connection. And for some people and a lot of people, I think that might even be true. So like I you know but when you're young and you experience something so profound and so beautiful where you feel really good and you feel really safe um and then you're like wait I am being told in all aspects of my life that this is something that is like not good and I just had a really hard time reconciling that of just like what does it mean that you know the environments that I'm being brought up in um would make fun of this or would say that this is not safe or not good and yet it was so profound for me on a on a personal level. Um, and so I spent just a lot of time trying to pitch every person I dated after that that I wanted to experience more of this and every single person was like, "Maybe eventually, but not yet." Like, "We just want to be monogamous."

Anna: You're looking for this kind of group sex experience. Do you seek it out for yourself during this time?

Jess: I do. I start anything that I can imagine that I want, I start just putting out into the universe. This was also early Tinder, so you could just kind of say, "I'm into this." And people could say yes or no or um and so I just started when I would meet people and they'd say, "Well, what are you into or what do you want?" And I would just say, "This is what I want."

Anna: What would you say? I'm really curious like the language you were using at the time.

Jess: Um it depended on specifically what it was, but the one thing I was really interested in was um gang bangs, which um you know, for me was so exciting to be a part of a group of men because I think um like I love being around men. I actually I know that seems weird given who I am and all of my opinions about men in certain contexts, but I love men. I love that brotherhood energy. Um, I'm also like fairly competitive. So, it was like I wonder if that's going to be a different kind of a dynamic when you're with a bunch of guys. And most guys would be like, "Not for me." And then it just I found I just kind of opened this world where I found this one guy who was very sweet and he was just like, "Well, I played football with some guys in college and I think they're into that. Like, let me see what I can do." And they all lived in different places. So, this wasn't like a, "Oh, we're all in LA. We're just got to schedule a coffee." It was like we are all in different parts of California and so um it's like a travel game. Sorry.

Anna: It was like an away game.

Jess: And so we started in a group chat and we just started talking. And so for a month we all just chatted and we talked about relationships. We talked about sports. We talked about all kinds of silly stuff, politics, kind of like getting to know each other a bit. A little bit cuz I was like I haven't met any of these people so I have no idea, you know, I just kind of want to vibe it out. Um, and then they were all going to be in LA and it was just kind of one of those like they were like, "Okay, we're doing it. We're going to come over to your place on Friday at like 9:00."

Anna: And how were you and how many quickly, sorry, how many of guys were there?

Jess: Three. So, it was four total.

Anna: And how were you feeling when it was like, "Okay, from the group chat to IRL, like this thing you'd really really wanted and desired is happening." Like, I mean, I would imagine I'm nervous when someone comes over for like a dinner party. Like were you like I don't know like tell me what was running through your body, your mind.

Jess: I mean it was that it was holy [ __ ] my dreams are actually about to happen. I put this out there and then it was a lot of having to talk myself up cuz I was like you asked for this. You can't back out of this because this was your idea.

Anna: Um and you were like I want this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess: Yeah. But it was kind of a lot of like do I get to have this? Like am I allowed to have this? this is something that I can experience. Um, and then obviously there was like a little tiny part of me that was like, are these guys going to murder me? And this was all just like for not

Anna: safety is an aspect of this that I was thinking about. Yeah.

Jess: Mhm.

Anna: Mhm.

Jess: Safety is, but I think I don't know how to put it, but I think there was just trust. Like there was something we had built this rapport over text. Um, I loved that they were all friends because I was then in stepping into their dynamic, which I just really enjoyed this um this feeling of, you know, seeing these guys talking [ __ ] being friends with each other, having this long history, and then you're just kind of there, you know, gassing them up and also talking [ __ ] and just doing all of this stuff.

Anna: Yeah. The dynamic is interesting to you to be in this dynamic. Yeah.

Jess: Yes.

Anna: Okay. So, they come over. They come over and it was just it was like probably it might have been like the best night of my life. It was unbelievable. We had so much fun. It was just like laughing. It was lots of slapping butts. It was like just a lot of competition. It was like me competing with them but them competing with each other. Um and I just loved it. They all crashed and then we got breakfast in the morning and it was just like the most um it just was so much fun. I felt so cared for. They all cared a lot about my pleasure, which was like, you know, just awesome. Um, and you know, when you throw them all together, they all care a little bit more because I have to like one up each other. So, like, that was a lot of fun. And, um, I just loved it. It was a lot of fun.

Anna: Was there anything that surprised you about the experience or yourself, you know, in this experience?

Jess: I think the thing that I didn't realize that I was looking for from group sex when it especially in this dynamic was really being in the present and having the audacity to ask for what you want is really powerful and it's really scary because people can say no but also you might get what you want and it's not what you think or you get what you want and it's everything you think and you're like holy [ __ ] how do I top that

Anna: totally

Jess: um and so I think just being fully present and not worrying about any of those things was really um really good for me. It was like the most present and in my body I'd maybe ever felt.

Anna: And do you guys stay in touch or what happened to the group text after the guys leave?

Jess: Yeah, I went to one of their weddings. So that was at the brunch at the breakfast afterwards. We um one of them was in a kind of on again off again relationship and so we talked about his relationship problems and it just if we became friends you know there a couple of them I still keep in touch with um but not super actively cuz they're all you know everybody has kids now we're all parents.

Anna: Wow. So you went to one of their weddings. The wholesomeness only continues. You're like hey how do you know the groom? You're like friends from college. Something like that. Yeah.

Anna: We'll be right back. Okay. So, Jess, it's around this time that you start going to more organized play parties. Tell me about that.

Jess: Yeah. So, um, so I would go to these parties and I would walk in and the vibes were immediately just not, um, I don't know how else to describe it, but there was just a certain idea of what a sex party is and all the people.

Anna: Let's see if you can try to describe it because I would really love to hear about it.

Jess: So, there were two main ones. There was either really expensive masks, lingerie suits, like everybody just looks like they're in a like a sexy board meeting. It's usually in a mansion. Um, and then the other one was um, you know, very dirty, like in a dungeon, lots of red and black, lots of velvet, um, lots of extremes. And so I would go to these places and I don't know why, but almost all of them would have a picture of like Marilyn Monroe. I don't know what that was about, but it was just like like what is this about Marilyn Monroe and sex parties? I don't think she I don't know if she was like that. You know what I mean?

Anna: So, it was like the picture of when like the wind's blowing up her skirt or something.

Jess: It was always a different picture, but it just felt like, you know, to me that said everything about the people who were throwing the parties that to them she embodied the kind of femininity that they wanted to be at that party. I just would go to these parties and I would be, you know, and I'm queer and I was just like, "This is so straight, but it's also not straight in like a fun way. It's straight in like a boring man's way of coming up with a sex party."

Anna: Wait, tell me more about this. And I do actually want you, even though I understand. I kind of want you to unpack why Marilyn Monroe and and RIP and all love to her, of course. You know what I mean? Like her respect is due. She's a total icon. What was it about the photo, whatever, of her at these sex parties? What did that tell you about the dynamic? I want to know more about that.

Jess: Well, I think you know so much of sex parties there is a lot of being perceived. I think a lot of us go to sex parties because we like being perceived and we want to perceive other people. And to me, Marilyn Monroe is the absolute personification of a woman who was perceived in a through a very like male-centric lens and represented sort of this ideal. And she was messy, you know, like she was a super messy like very powerful woman, but the version of her that is kind of immortalized is just this like sex symbol. And she was that, but she was also a lot of other things. Um, and so to me when I would walk into these spaces and I would see, you know, Marilyn Monroe and I was like, that's who they think we might want to be or that they want us to be like her and be comfortable being perceived through that like male gaze.

Anna: Yeah. And a very particular body, right, and white. I mean, it's just like there it's having this sort of be like the ideal platonic ideal of these parties.

Jess: Yeah. if you don't look or whatever, like if your vibe isn't marily, it could be kind of alienating.

Anna: Okay. So, you're saying it's like there was the Marilyn Monroe of it all. And then when you were inside of these parties, whether it was Boardroom or Dungeon, but those really are two extremes. Tell me about how you're saying it was very straight. Like, tell me how those dynamics were playing out. If you even remember, I don't know, like specific moments where you were like, "Ah, I would be curious to hear about those."

Jess: So there's a lot of um swinger norms that are very kind of patriarchal, very heteronormative. A lot of it comes down to viewing women as property, right? And so like in a lot of swinger culture, um if you want to play with a man's partner, you would ask the man instead of his partner. And um I just thought that was so odd because I was like if you want like I mean he can have a say I guess but it's not between you and him. It's between him and me.

Anna: so like someone would go up at these parties and be like hi can I like play with your girlfriend? That kind of thing.

Jess: Yes. A thousand%. Yes. And Right. So many so much ick. Um so it was a lot of that. I think it was a lot of also focus on sex as penetration. And there was a lot of focus around on um like genitals on penetration. And for me like sex is so much bigger than that and so much more expansive than that.

Anna: I mean you're describing play parties that that seem like as you said sort of a mirror of the kind of toxic straight dynamics that one might experience outside of these play parties, right?

Jess: Yes.

Anna: We talked about how you felt when you left that experience um with the group of guy friends. when you left these sex parties, how would you feel?

Jess: Um, wanting it just felt like we weren't even, you know, we weren't even scratching the surface of what this could be and how it could feel. And it did feel like it was very performative, like people were trying to play at what they saw in movies or what they imagined um what somebody else had imagined a sex party could be. And for me that was um a little bit of a challenge. You know, it was like how would I do this? You know, how would I get a group of people together? And once they're there, which is the hardest part is just getting people to show up once they're there, what would I want that to feel like? What would I want that to look like? Um and it was kind of it felt like a lot of responsibility because I know that like the difference between a really great sex party and a really like shitty sex party. Um it really impacts how you feel about yourself. Like there's a lot of big feelings that come up because of how a sex party is crafted.

Anna: I guess I wonder was there one moment where you were like, I think I need to do this. I think I need to host my own. Like what got you to actually hosting your first play party?

Jess: So, I was thinking about leaving LA and I just kind of felt like, well, if I'm going to leave LA, which it was a city that I thought I was going to hate and then grew to love and just have so much great stuff to say about. Um, but for me, if I was going to leave LA and kind of change my life, it was like, I just want to do this one thing because there's never a more perfect moment. And if I don't do this, I can see my 80-year-old self, you know, talking about this one moment that I could have done this really interesting thing and I just chose not to

Anna: last harrah.

Jess: Um, and so I just texted a bunch of people that I had been hanging out with, like some people that I had been intimate with, um, some that I hadn't and just kind of said, "Yeah, networking party with an optional orgy at the end. There's no pressure."

Anna: Say again. Say that again. Say that again. You're saying it like they know it. Okay, say that again. How did you text them?

Jess: I pitched them on a networking party with an optional orgy at the end. So, it was yeah, it was uh audacious, but I knew I had to make it accessible. You know, I feel like that was a big thing is people have these scripts and these ideas of what a sex party or an orgy or a play party might be. And I wanted to kind of bring it back down to connection and just basic like come meet cool people.

Anna: And how many people ended up coming to this networking event with optional or J?

Jess: Okay, 18.

Anna: So, talking about and you're hosting it at your home?

Jess: Yes, my apartment.

Anna: Your home. Apartment.

Jess: Well, as much as you want to tell me how that went down, I would really like to know.

Jess: Um, man, it's like I have to Everybody was really nervous. That's what I'll say is everybody walked in the door. Everybody told me that they would probably be leaving before 10:00 cuz that was the whole thing was we're not going to play before 10:00. So, come hang out and then if you want to leave before 10:00 before play happens or can happen, um that's totally okay. Um and play might not happen at all, too. So, a lot of people walked in. Everybody was late, too. So, it was like 9:00.

Anna: Be the first. Yeah. So, it's so funny. Yeah, totally.

Jess: Well, a lot of people told me that, you know, they parked in their car and even debated in their car if they wanted to come up. So, um, they all walk in and it's a very, um, I have a knack for having a very like diverse group of friends. So, like it was not a group of people that you would have imagined seeing together. And so, then we um, yeah, we just talked and hung out and everybody kind of started relaxing, mingling, just, you know, like tell me about you. But it was also a space because people because I joke that it's like an orgy carrot, right? that there's this promise of something amazing and fun, but to get there, you have to be vulnerable. You have to get to know people. You have to be interested in the people who are there. Especially for the men who showed up, I told them I was like, you know, you really just have to and they were all great, but I just was like, you have to just talk to women and ask them about themselves and just kind of the basics.

Anna: 4G is the carrot for like human connection, for like for intimacy. I really I like that.

Jess: So 1000 p.m. rolls around. 1000 p.m. rolls around. I actually think it was um I think we like started a little bit later. It was like 10:30. And then a couple that was there just decided to go for it. They were really nervous coming in because they were like opening up their relationship, but there was a lot of stuff they were working through and they just went for it. And then it just was like

Anna: they started having

Jess: they started having sex. Um and yeah, and then everybody just kind of went into the room and it just became this um it wasn't, you know, this like soft organic like it was like just all of a sudden boom, okay, we're doing it. Like let's before we change our mind, everybody jump into an orgy like let's go. It's really sweet to be honest. It's like everyone's like, "Oh god, it's happening. Okay, I'm in."

Anna: Like I got to do it before I lose my nerves.

Jess: Oh my god. And you know, people would like be in the middle and then they would have to go, you know, take a second. And like that was always so fun for me was talking to people as they were um leaving, you know, or in the middle of processing and just like how are you feeling? And it's a lot of big feelings. I think that was that's part of what I love about it so much is it's um you know, you get to experience other people have some of these first introductions to things and it feels very special in that in that sense.

Anna: Okay. And I just have to close the scene. It's like people leave and then you like collapse on your couch where like like how did you

Jess: Yeah.

Anna: Yeah. It was out for me.

Jess: So I had where I was living at the time I had an amazing rooftop and so after everybody left um I just went up to the rooftop and I just watched the sun come up and I just was like you know cuz you're like humming and you're like that was amazing. And also and so I just would watch the sun come up. Um, and then it was like, God, I have to tell everybody I know about this experience, but like who wants to hear me talk about hosting an orgy? Cuz a lot of my friends are like not into that scene. So, I was just like, I have to figure out how to talk about this and process it cuz it's a lot to process.

Anna: So, it's okay. After this party that you've hosted, watching the sun come up, exhaling, were you like, "Oh my god, I have to do another one of these." is like what was your feeling there?

Jess: I don't even know if I was thinking that far ahead. Um it did feel it felt like I had tapped into something cuz as people were leaving they were like that just changed my life. And there's like there aren't a lot of things that I think feel as good as hearing from somebody like hearing that affirmation from somebody that something that you put a lot of thought into and a lot of care into and took a risk on meant something to them and maybe change their perspective. And so I was just kind of reeling from how much bigger of an impact that was having on me than I could have expected. Um but I was also exhausted. It was like a lot to care about how everybody was feeling. It was a lot to imagine all of the potential terrible things that could have gone wrong. Totally.

Anna: But like the following week, it just became so clear to me cuz we were I was texting with everybody, checking in on them like how are you doing?

Jess: That's a lot of I mean like afterare is the word that comes to mind, but yeah, there's a lot of you're doing a lot of emotional work.

Anna: A ton of emotional work. I think um that's what makes really great play party hosts is like some a lot of emotional labor. And so I just was I don't know I it just became so clear to me that like if I don't I have time like I'm already going through a transition. It was a little bit of like why don't I just you know try to do this a little bit more and see what comes of it. It just felt so clear that I had to fully explore it until its end.

Anna: We'll be right back. So, you know, after that you start organizing and hosting play parties. Um, what were some of the things in those earlier days of hosting that you look back on and you're like, I can't believe I did that. Like, were there any early L's? Basically,

Jess: oh, for sure. And I'm actually really glad we're talking about this because again, you know, nobody teaches you how to do this. There's a lot of conversation now about consent and what that looks like and there's a lot of nuanced conversation. Um, this was 2015, 2016. those conversations were like just starting to happen in a big way. Um, and so for me, you know, I again didn't have any formal education as a sex educator. And so my understanding of consent was just, you know, like, yeah, obviously people shouldn't do things they don't want to do. Um, and then getting into what that looks like in a play party context is really interesting because it is you are as the organizer creating the container and the container has to have rules, right? And um people are looking to you to enforce the rules. They're looking to you to um embody the rules. And so for me it was a little bit of building the plane while I was flying it of like what does that mean? You know, what are the rules? What makes sense? That to me was obviously the foundation is safety. That feels so obvious to say, but in practice it was a lot of trial and error to be like, yeah, if I do this, how does that change people's behavior? Um, one of the funny things that it's gonna sound so silly, but yeah,

Anna: the venue is so important.

Jess: Oh, it doesn't sound silly to me at all. It doesn't sound silly. Yeah, talk about that. Talk about that.

Jess: So passionate about this because it was, you know, like when I was hosting in my apartment, it was an open loft, so there were no doors except to the bathroom and to the front. And um, and then I started hosting in different venues. I mean, I hosted in my 10 years of doing this, I've hosted hundreds of play parties. So I got a lot of opportunity to experiment with different venues and just kind of seeing like what different dynamics um you know different variables how that impacted the group. And as soon as you introduced doors like a place with rooms that people could walk into and close it made everything so icky.

Anna: Tell me I think I understand but tell me why

Jess: it would create power dynamics because as the host people want somebody to be in charge. I think this is true in life, right? Like we want to feel like, oh, I'm walking into this space and the agreement is that you thought of all the bad things that should happen. There's a plan. Um, and so that's a contract that people have with you. But when you go into a space with doors that people can then either close people in or close people out, it creates these like sub kind of groups where there's a totally different power dynamic.

Anna: But when we didn't have doors, that was not a problem. So, it was just really interesting to see how different um variables brought out different sides of people that maybe I hadn't

Jess: you hadn't considered.

Anna: I mean, this is all you're getting this experience. Tell me about other details that are like really important to set up a great to set up a play party for success.

Jess: So, I think lighting is also so incredibly important. And I feel like you can tell, again, it's unfortunate that it's so gendered, but so often the spaces that are just beautiful, like you want to feel like you're in a beautiful space, whatever the vibe or the aesthetic that you're going for is, it should feel very intentional. And I think um something that I learned was really important was always having all of the barriers on site. So, just condoms, um, lube, uh, h, you know, gloves, finger condoms, like everything, dental dams, um, things like how many bathrooms does a space have? And like, do you allow play in the bathroom? Do you allow play in the closet? Like just all of these rules that you don't think you have to come up with until somebody does something because you didn't tell them not to.

Anna: Sure.

Jess: And you're like, "Oh, that didn't work."

Anna: So, next time you're like, "Okay, the closet is actually just for brooms."

Jess: Yeah.

Anna: Yeah. What are you doing when you're hosting a party to make sure that those like I said those like consent policies, the rules are being upheld? What are you doing?

Jess: So, a lot of it's like welcoming people in. I think you know when people come into these spaces they are bringing so much stuff with them which is true for any house party but then you add in these layers of how people feel about sex how they feel about shame how they feel about their own bodies how they feel um about intimacy and they're carrying all of that into the door and so my job as a host and all of the hosts that I work with who are amazing um it's our job to kind of take some of that and say hey you're here. Um, we've got you. You're held. Um, and we're going to just give you all of the tools you need to navigate this space.

Anna: How do you do that? What does that mean like in practice for you, Jess, as a host?

Jess: I think a lot of it is just talking to people, which sounds so silly, but it's letting them know that they are seen. And there's so many different ways you can do that. I think giving people compliments about their outfits, cuz that's always so fun, and it's really nerve-wracking to show up to a sex party. Probably most people have like 20 outfits that they tried on on the floor of their room.

Anna: Okay. I'm hearing that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Jess: And just trying to feel like what is going to make me feel like my best in this environment. And so knowing that people put all of that effort into showing up. Um just wanting to affirm that like they're perfect the way they are, like they don't have to worry about anything else. Like they're here now. Um, one of the most interesting things to me in in witnessing all of this and also in experiencing it for myself, um, rejection is very hard.

Anna: I was going to ask how you as a host you because it's inevitable in a place like this, right? Like how do you navigate that as a host or help people through that? That's tough.

Jess: I think we talk about it a lot. I think it's um it's interesting to me though because it's not receiving rejection that's as hard. I think it's giving rejection because we're all especially um like I my the community that I built FWB is predominantly women and fems. So a lot of people who've been socialized as women and fems um are socialized as people pleasers, right? Like you've been taught your whole life to not directly say no. Um, and if you say no, you have to give all of these reasons why you're saying no because you it's safer that way. It's more polite that way. And this is a space where you kind of have to unlearn all of that. Um, and that to me is like when people walk out of there or they feel really uncomfortable, it's because it's all of these things that we've been taught that we are having to actively unlearn in real time in order to feel safe and participate in play. And I really wanted to think a lot about how to help people graduate to play and um and also think about play not just as explicit sex acts. And to me, I think play is everything, you know, it's connecting. It's saying like how can we make each other feel good?

Jess: Um and so at these parties now, we do a lot of just uh sensual stuff. So giving people like paint brushes, things like that that are just in your house that you can just kind of explore with and see how it makes somebody feel. Um, so that has been I love that part of it is just helping people realize that eroticism and play is not just sex and sex is not just genitals and penetration. It's so much bigger than all of that. So welcoming people in and telling people that they can just start with that and just start small. And sometimes that's where people have like the most transformative experience because it's like, oh, I could just enjoy that. Like I actually really love being massaged, but I always feel like I have to take massage to the next level and I could just receive and enjoy massage for what it was without having to extend it past that. And that to me that's where it gets really rewarding and fun.

Anna: Was there a moment during one of these parties where you looked around and you were like this is it

Jess: for sure. I think that happens like every 10th party feels like a oh this is this is good.

Anna: Can you describe a moment for me where you were like I freaking did it?

Jess: I think it's just really special because chemistry of a group is a real thing. You know how people vibe together if they're attracted. Um, and so every group has a totally different feeling. Um, I'm always amazed because you often have like, you know, uh, ice breakers planned and stuff. And some groups you're like, oh my god, I had to do like three of my ice breakers because everybody was like wall flowering so hard.

Anna: Totally.

Jess: And then other groups you're like, I don't even need an icebreaker because I have enough, you know, sort of extroverted instigators that I can just kind of like let the group happen. Um, and so there was one party that was just very sensual. It was very like people were just touching each other and feeling each other and there was sex happening but it was tender. I don't know how else to say it than just really tender, very wholesome, you know. Obviously I'm biased but I'm like this is what being human should feel like. It should feel connected. It should feel like we're in a supportive space. It should feel like we're playing and enjoying life. Um otherwise like what kind of what's the point? I think about how much joy it's brought into my life and how much meaning and just there's something very special about creating these spaces for people.

Anna: It gives you a perspective that I think is so unique and um

Jess: where you really get to see people be vulnerable. You get to see people trusting each other. It just it gives me hope for the future. I don't know how else to say it. That might sound so corny, but host

Anna: Yeah.

Jess: But say say it. No, say it. I don't mean to cut you off. Hosting these gives you hope for the future.

Anna: It gives me hope for the future. I think um

Jess: it shows me what's possible for how we treat each other and that we can be in a space where we're scared and we're vulnerable and we're nervous and we still just show up for each other and we treat each other well and we still take risks. Um and we're rewarded for those risks, but we also, you know, we're still thinking about safety. you're just kind of holding all of these um things all at the same time and just seeing people do that so beautifully. And not to say that every party's perfect, like they're not and there have been problems, but overall like the net positive is just that it's been so um eye opening for me of like what's possible for how people can be and treat each other and show up for themselves while showing up for other people.

Anna: Jess Zakira Wise, thank you so much for talking to me today.

Jess: Thank you. I had a lot of fun. This was really great.

Anna: The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez and Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lin Levy. Special thanks to Brook Mentors. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia Beetup, Marian Lozano, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.