If you're a parent in Ontario, there's a good chance you sighed with relief back in March 2022.

That's when the province and feds signed a multi-billion dollar child care agreement.

We're here to provide real relief to parents and families in Ontario. as we announce an agreement worth over $13 billion to deliver $10 a day child care to moms and dads across the province.

So, how are we doing on that?

The goal was to get fees down to an average of $10 a day by March 2026.

The daily average today, $19 bucks.

On the plus side, the province got a one-year extension from the feds, meaning fees won't go up in the near future.

But they also won't hit $10 a day by March.

Why is Ontario struggling to reach its target?

But first, the province is looking to bring back a controversial program that places police officers in elementary and high schools.

Does it make schools safer or just create a whole new set of problems?

This is the rundown.

The government says having police officers in schools would protect students and build trust, but others say the school resource officer program wouldn't address the root cause of violence and would make some students feel unsafe.

So, what does the data tell us?

I got insight into the program's pros and cons from Leanne Cole, school trustee for Missaga Wards 1 and 7, and David Boosevelt, co-founder of Peele Black Collective and Black Education Fund in Powers and a Human Rights Educator.

David Leanne, welcome to the program. How are you guys doing?

>> Great, thanks.

>> Thank you. I'm doing well.

>> All right, we're going to start off uh with uh Bill 33. Right into it.

The Ontario government's bill 33, the supporting children and students act calls on school boards to implement school resource officer SRO programs where such programs are available.

Now Leanne, you introduced a motion at a recent Peele District Schoolboard meeting regarding the program. What did your motion set out to do?

So the motion is to invite the police, meaning Peele Regional Police and the OP to come to the school board and have a discussion with staff as to how it might look like if this program is reintroduced.

>> All right. I should mention you are speaking today.

>> I am not speaking on behalf of the board today. I'm speaking from what I feel personally.

>> All right, David. Uh take us back a little bit. 2017, uh that is when the SRO program ended. uh why

>> 2020

>> 2020 sorry uh why was the SRO program end why did it end in 2020

>> well it was in the wake of the murder of George Floyd and I think there was a real impetus to look at structures and systems and um particularly how they affect uh marginalized groups black people indigenous folks and the Peele police entered a conversation with the community where feedback was given uh and taken and you know we learned that the Peele Regional Police, some of their officers were using the program to hone their investigative skills and for advancement in their jobs.

And we heard the story of the six-year-old girl who was handcuffed and chackled.

And ultimately, you know, we had this series of very difficult discussions and the PO police uh determined on their own uh to end the the the program and the political environment has subsequently changed a little bit.

It's 5 years later.

>> People aren't thinking so much about, you know, the so-called wokeism.

Um, and here we are in an environment where people are, you know, actively wishing to have police officer back in schools.

>> In terms of the program's length, how long did it actually last for before all of that feedback?

>> I I don't know specifically how long it was there, but it was there long enough to create significant harm.

>> All right. I I should mention that uh we did reach out uh for a statement from the Ministry of Education.

We did not hear back in time for the taping.

I want to show a graphic. This is data compiled by Global News late August showing the number of violent incidences in Ontario schools.

As you can see, the numbers creep up just before the pandemic, a drop to around a thousand in the middle of the pandemic when schools were closed, and then rise to over 4,000 after the school closures ended.

David, is there a connection uh between the end of the SRO program and the rise of violence in schools?

>> Well, I don't think so. And like Trusty Cole said, right, the SRO program is not designed to be an enforcement program, but a relationship building program.

So the folks that are, you know, saying, "Hey, our schools are unsafe. Bring back police officers and then they'll be safe." um I think are contorting right what what the purpose of those programs was um building relationships is not arresting and handcuffing and dealing with discipline that could be handled by school staff and principles.

So I think um you know the previous design of the program although it was intended to be you know relationship building morphed into you know the principal could call on the police officers to address certain issues um and the police officers were you know willingly doing that and so it ended up with the criminalization of kids and when we look at Peele regional police specifically where I'm from in Bmpton uh what we find is in the community and based on the data that that they present annually around use of force.

Black people represent 10% of the community, but 30% of the use of force incidents.

So, if you were to introduce police officers in schools, I don't think it's a difficult assumption to assume that if the schools had 10% black student population that they could be receiving 30% of negative police interactions in whatever form those existed.

So I think you know also Trusty Cole makes a good point that there needs to be supports in schools and the question is what are those supports?

More guidance counselors perhaps smaller class sizes, child and youth workers, social workers, mental health professionals um which are trained professionals to deal with children, right?

And police are you know trained professionals to deal with crime.

And so we're introducing uh you know potentially a support into schools that you know perhaps goes a bit too far.

>> I want to get your take on that. Uh you know David makes

>> I I completely agree and I think you know and I'm hoping this is if my motion is passed by other trustees um that when we do have those discussions with the police and the board I'm hoping their report can bring back brag, you know, what are we going to do different next time?

How are we going to make sure that we're available for kids and not only the kids but the staff so that they feel a sense of safety as well parents, right?

I think it's it's everybody.

And we have to make sure that it's done in a way that, you know, it they're not there to arrest or or lay charges because we don't want the kids thinking that they're in trouble and they're walking into, you know, that feeling every day.

We want them to feel safe.

That's what our whole motto is is safe and caring schools.

uh in terms of the the graph that we saw there uh you mentioned a little bit a connection between the end of the program and what we've seen uh as someone who's you know been around schools and students

>> coming out of the pandemic things are different I I think we can we can look at sort of you know what th those those years have done uh and anecdotally we can we can see uh what students are saying and teachers are saying but is there a connection between those two

>> I don't know and I don't know if we've had enough time to really look at the data um you know 2020 2021 2022 was just a couple years ago so and is it only the pandemic I think there's a lot of factors here that we have to uh consider and I think if we do have the program come back it has to be somehow measurable so that we can see what the actual issues are and and why they're present now um so I I really can't speak to that I think we still need to see what the data shows for 2024 or 2025 and make a determination from there.

>> All right, I want to read uh the Ontario Human Rights Commission's uh submission on Bill 33.

Let's have a read there.

By mandating the implementation of SRO programs, Bill 33 disempowers school boards and prevents them from filling their responsibility to protect the rights of all students under the Ontario Human Rights Code.

This is particularly concerning in jurisdictions including Peele and Toronto where black students and communities have routinely communicated the systemic harms associated with SRO programs.

So pretty much what you had highlighted David does does this bill ignore the concerns of racialized communities about systemic discrimination?

>> Well 100% right and it's being rushed through the legislature.

Um these discussions happened uh they're ongoing discussions uh once the removal of the SRO program happened.

Um the community members, you know, supported that decision.

The Peele police then went further and partnered with the ORC on what they call their human rights project.

And within that project, uh, item or recommendation 12P talks very specifically about the importance of ending the SRO programs and police programming in schools.

And they have developed a protocol, right?

So for the average member of the public that thinks, hey, police aren't allowed in schools at all. It's unsafe. Kids are fighting and violence is happening, vaping, all of these things. There's a protocol that exists.

And I think it would be fair to measure that existing protocol and determine whether it's working uh optimally or whether it needs to be adjusted.

But police are invited into schools under specific circumstances, safety issues, crimes. Um and other issues that it's determined that the principles, the superintendents, and the school staff can address, right?

Often these are kids. They're 12y olds, 15y olds, 10 year olds, sixy olds.

So would cops be a deterrent?

Um, you know, I mean, cops might be a deterrent to something, but they may create fear when you think of um, you know, neurode divergent students, black and indigenous students, newcomers that maybe are undocumented, like going to your school and seeing a cop could, you know, really be traumatizing for people.

Also, people who have had negative interactions with police.

So I think and I'll just reiterate in the school environment we should be pressing for uh resources and funding for things that support students social emotional well-being and that would be the things I listed before right more guidance counselors smaller class sizes extra supports as child and youth workers um those are the professionals that can really help deal with behavioral issues and you know the introduction of SRO programs it's always stated as oh it's just to build relationships, but it's always also, you know, under the guise of schools are unsafe and if a cop's there, you know, maybe they can address some of these issues, you know, and that will end up, we know, disproportionately criminalizing uh students from marginalized groups.

>> All right, with that, Lee, I I want to get a better understanding of what you're hearing from parents. Um, are they asking uh for police to be on school grounds through this SR program?

>> Um, I think from what I know, the majority of them are.

We actually went out into the community, myself and a few other uh trustees.

Um it was after an incident had occurred uh in Kaledan um whereby a parent was very upset about what happened to their child.

Um and so we took a petition in the community and we just chose random areas in Missaga, Bmpton and Kaledan.

We went door to door and we spoke to parents and sometimes if their kids were home, the kids too.

And we asked them, we asked them, is this something that you would support if the school board could facilitate a conversation with the police about what this might look like going forward?

And from the signatures that I got, which is roughly about 100, I would say, um, I think I had one person say no.

So, you know, but again to your point, I agree with you at the same time because it has to be a program that works and it has to be measurable.

And I know you said that word keyword, you know, we have to be able to measure this.

So, what are we doing right and what are we doing wrong?

And if it does come back, and this is why I've put this motion forward to discuss this with staff and the police, what is it going to look like?

How are we going to measure this?

What? Maybe we just start with a couple schools at first.

Maybe the officer is not in uniform.

Maybe they're playing clothes.

I don't know.

But that's why I put this motion forward to see what it might look like because there is a sense of fear right now, right?

So, and it's hard to look at the broader picture and decide like who do we listen to this group?

This group. So, you know, we have to work with everybody to make sure that it's done right.

>> All right. I I should mention, you know, 100 signatures is not a it's not a huge number.

Uh but I do want to ask David, if a majority of students, parents, and teachers um did want the program back, would you support it?

>> If they did want the program back, no, absolutely not.

So, and and the reason is very simple.

If you go out into the community with an equity lens and keeping in mind the history and the context of the Peele District School Board that was placed under supervision because of an unwillingness and inability to address specifically anti-black racism and other forms of discrimination.

Um that was in 2020 as well.

and the commitment and the directives from the Ministry of Education were all around equity and listening to marginalized uh voices of people from marginalized communities and it's those voices that are going to experience harm and policing uh creates harm in those communities in every example.

Right?

So, we couldn't possibly be naive enough to think that in a school environment, policing programs would, you know, not harm black students and other marginalized students.

And I think um the idea of majorities, you know, speaking out and saying, "Yeah, we want police." like you would have to give some education to folks and explain what the history is, what the current state is, why we got to where we got, what the safety issues are, what the other possible solutions for, you know, if there are safety issues.

Your graph demonstrated that perhaps there's more violent incidents in schools.

So I would suggest let's look at the root causes of these violent um you know these occurrences of violence and let's really think and be intentional about how do we resolve that because putting an SRO and building relationships with police officers does not address why students are vaping, why students are fighting, why students are skipping class, why you know certain groups of students perhaps are not as connected to their educational environment in healthy ways.

And you know that's the support that they need.

And I'll say it, you know, a thousand times. Police officers are not trained to be child and youth workers.

And introducing them to the school at the cost, right?

Their budgets are ballooning.

They're saying that they don't have the resources to deal with car theft and and crime in the community, which they also say is on the rise, and they're going to literally embed a police officer um you know, in multiple schools across the province of Ontario.

I don't think it makes sense.

I think we should have a constructive conversation about what type of supports and resources the province can add to create real safety in schools for everybody.

>> All right. So, Bill 33 went for a final vote today. Uh Lean, I want to have a better understanding in terms of a timeline. When do you expect uh the SRO program to be implemented in PE?

>> I wish I could answer that and honestly I I have no idea.

I haven't been told anything and I I don't have any uh guess.

Um, but I do agree with what you said.

It would be great if we could have more social workers and support workers in the school when it comes, you're right,

it comes down to funding and for us to have the police back.

That's at no cost to the board.

But you made an interesting point that they're not trained in child and youth worker type work.

And maybe that's something that we could look at that the police get that kind of training.

>> Yeah. I think and sorry but I think that

you know assuming that a police officer who's been hired to be a police officer has been put through you know use of force training um how to arrest people how to investigate crimes that is their core function um and then layering on top of that and saying now you're going to become you know the person that guides children into um better decisions or builds relationships with children or you know disrupts problems within the I think we're missing the point that there are people who are professional at this who went to school to be um to to work with children and and to help and support them and those are the people that we need in the schools.

>> All right, we will leave it there.

Leanne, David, thank you so much for your insights.

I'm sure this will be a conversation that we will be following closely.

So, I really appreciate your your time.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> Thank you.

In October, Ontario's Auditor General spelled out what was already clear to a lot of parents. The province isn't on track to meet its targets for affordable child care, and will almost certainly have to change its approach if we're going to get $10 a day childare by 2026.

So, what are the challenges here?

What should Ontario be doing differently?

And what effect is all of this having on families?

I asked Carolyn Ferns, public policy coordinator for the Ontario Coalition for Better Childare.

Carolyn, welcome to the program. How are you doing?

>> Good, thank you. Thanks for having me.

>> I want to start with uh why uh Ontario is behind in reaching the $10 a day target. Break it down for us.

>> Yeah, absolutely. I can put that in perspective.

So, Ontario's had um an agreement with the federal government um which has had a schedule for them to lower child care fees over the last few years.

You know, first we were at market rates where parents were paying $100 a day for an infant space.

Um then those fees got cut in half.

an average of $19 a day.

Um so much more affordable for families.

But you know, the schedule was that we were supposed to get down to an average of $10 a day by March.

Um but you know, the federal government and the provincial government um have been in negotiations for a new agreement, right?

our childare agreement with the federal government ends in March and we don't have we didn't have a new one.

So there was months of of time went by where we were waiting for news that the two governments were at least talking.

Um we started hearing that in the fall that yes, there were negotiations underway and then last week it was announced that Ontario has reached a one-year agreement.

Um was looking at a five-year agreement.

other provinces have reached 5-year agreements, but what we have is a one-year funding extension.

Um, but the news that came in that is that Ontario is not going to meet the target of 10 a day and instead is going to stay where we are at this cap of $22 rather than proceeding where we're supposed to proceed.

Um, and that's going to happen until we have, you know, a proper, you know, longer, stronger funding agreement with the federal government.

>> All right, we'll pick up on the extension, but I I want to take a step back. um help us understand in terms of the rest of the provinces, uh how does Ontario stack up? Have the other provinces made deals?

>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's that's a good question.

So, Ontario, yes, we're behind on meeting our own target of reaching 10 a day, but we're also starting to fall behind some of the other provinces where we know some provinces have already reached um that average of $10 a day.

Um, and in terms of agreements, most other provinces and territories reached agreements with the federal government back in March.

And it was at that time Ontario didn't reach a funding agreement.

Said they had an agreement in principle that Ontario agreed with, you know, the overall um objectives of the the tenant day childare plan, but had concerns about the funding levels.

And that's what's, you know, that that's the sticking point between the two governments is this funding gap.

>> Is there any other province that's holding out?

>> Yeah. Saskatchewan and Alberta are both provinces uh that don't yet have agreements with the federal government.

>> Similar sticking points for them.

Um I'd say with Alberta probably um more sticking points.

I think uh the Alberta government probably has objections of the the nature of the plan.

Um but uh but with Saskatchewan we hear yeah they're eager to sign an agreement too.

Now

>> all right I want to talk uh about the costs because you had mentioned the 22 about 19 now.

Um, but looking at the number that you had started at

and like $100 a day,

$100 a day in for someone who doesn't have a child, I can't even think how families are budgeting that much money.

So to come down to 19,

>> it's it's it's huge progress and we call it and very rightly is a game changer for families, right?

And it's uh it's easy to forget what it was like before this program came uh came into being.

um where you know I would hear regularly when I was in touch with families I'd hear regularly about families you know where people were deciding you know can I go back to work or is it even worth it I'm just I'm just working to pay for child care or you know uh you know families who are going into debt to pay for child care that was regular that that we heard about those things um and now you know it's making such a difference uh for families it's a key affordability promise

>> is there a risk I know we want to see that number go down is there a risk that those numbers can actually go up.

>> Yeah, that's what we were really worried about um when Ontario didn't, you know, have this funding agreement and we were waiting.

We were saying, you know, the clock is ticking.

If we don't have an agreement in March, um we could see childcare fees go go right back up again.

Um because it's the it's the federal funding that's really making such a huge difference in in this affordability for families.

>> All right. You mentioned the province there.

You also mentioned the feds.

Can we kind of point the finger? Who's who do we hold responsible for the delays here?

Yeah, I so that's a really good question and obviously you know this is a a a program that was started by the federal government right to to get to $10 a day.

Um it's the you know the $10 a day childare plan.

Um but you know child care is still primarily a provincial responsibility and it has been for years.

Um, so what we really need is both levels of government working together here.

And, um, you know, I hope that now that we have this one-year funding extension, the two levels of government get back to that negotiating table with more of a of a goal of how do we work together?

How do we um find that workable solution to fill the funding gap so this program uh can continue and it can it can reach more families and make more of a difference?

Um because you know honestly I think politically both levels of government should be interested in doing that because families have no time for fingerpointing between the two levels of government.

Um they don't care where the money's coming from.

They know this program is working.

It's very popular and you know we need to see more of it.

>> Uh we should mention uh that our producers did reach out for a statement from the Ontario government but we did not hear back uh in time for this taping.

Um, I do want to talk uh a little bit about space because that is a a big conversation here.

How challenging is it for parents right now to find child care spaces for children because there is the nonprofit and then there is the for-profit conversation as well.

>> Yeah. So, it's it's very challenging for families to find a childare space and that's been the situation for years, right?

So, if we talk about back when it was $100 a day, it was also really hard to find one of those spaces.

And you know, pretty much any family you talk to, they would look at where they live, they would draw a great big circle around their home and they would get on every weight list that they possibly could.

And that's still the reality.

Um, what's changed though is that as childcare fees have gone down, you know, demand for those more affordable spaces has gone up, right?

Um and you know, we're not there yet.

And Ontario had a goal to reach 86,000 new spaces.

We're short of that at this point.

Um which again is a reason I think for those two levels of government to get together and say okay how do we make this work?

How do we get to those those spaces and more um so that we're really uh meeting the demand uh for this very popular program.

>> Let's talk about uh the one-year extension uh with the feds that came at a cost of $695 million uh to keep it at the existing as you said 19 um and that will hold for about 12 months.

What do we need to do right now in order to get $10 a day programming implemented by then?

>> Yeah. So, you're right. The the federal government put more money into to keep fees where they are now.

And I think there's been an acknowledgement there with that from the federal government of what Ontario had flagged of a funding gap, right?

Ontario is saying, listen, we've moved now from, you know, to having a costbased funding formula where we have Ontario has better understanding now of where what the cost drivers are, what's needed to make that happen.

And if you think about it, it makes sense that it took some time for that figure to kind of emerge because, you know, when the federal government was starting this program, it really was something new.

It was like, you can estimate how much is this going to cost to roll out across the country, but you know, guess what?

costs are higher in Ontario for lots of reasons, right?

Um but and and it's going to take more to make it get us to that number.

So, I hope that both levels of government really do take that on.

Um you know, what we need to see, I think, from both the federal and provincial government is an understanding that funding child care is really an investment.

Um what's amazing to see is how the the the change that's happened already like the economic impacts we're seeing of the childcare program just in the years that it's been um in place already.

You know, we're seeing, you know, new jobs in early learning and childare to the tune of about 40,000 new jobs across the country, right?

It makes it makes work in early learning and childare like one of the biggest job creators in the country, right?

Like top tier job creator.

But we're also seeing increased uh labor force participation by parents, especially mothers, move from part-time to full-time work as they find affordable child care spaces.

And then of course, you know, um having that stress of paying for child care taken off them, they're spending more in their communities.

Like all good things that are happening.

And if I think if our governments both federally and proincially understood that, you know, we would have seen a a federal budget where child care was treated as a project of national interest, which it should be, right?

Like it really is, you know, projects of national interest, not just for bros, right?

Child care should be one of those things.

The same thing, you know, in the spring, we'll see the provincial budget always strong on roads and highways and bridges, that kind of infrastructure.

Child care is social infrastructure and it's a huge job creator.

It's good for the economy.

If both of our governments saw it that way, I think we would get to $10 a day very quickly and we get more spaces because the bigger the program, the more spaces, the more families that can access it, the greater the economic return.

>> Well, we are going to leave it there, Carolyn.

really appreciate.

No pressure on the governments there to to get that done, but time is ticking.

Absolutely.

>> All right. Thank you so much.

>> Thanks.

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