**Host:** Madame Vice President, how are you doing?

**Harris:** I am well. I am well. I mean, all things considered, I am well. My family is in good health, so I start there. But otherwise, you know, it's a troubling time.

**Host:** What are the full range of emotions when you said, "all things considered"? What's the full picture there?

**Harris:** Everything from grateful and feeling very blessed, to extremely troubled, disappointed, and concerned of the state of our country and, by extension, the world. Like a lot of people who are watching the news and reading the news, there's a state of anxiety about what will happen next. I often have found myself saying to people, it may get worse before it gets better. And so the knowledge of that, perhaps the anticipation of that, I think keeps me and many others on edge.

**Host:** Do you believe that? Do you believe it could get worse before it gets better?

**Harris:** I think it's very possible. Every day... because actually during the book tour, I've said it to audiences, and in one city, and then the next day something happens. There's a lot that's very unpredictable about this administration. Although, there is almost all of it that I did predict.

**Host:** Now, I know you only had 107 days to potentially intervene in the course of history, but when you see these things playing out that you're referring to that incite those feelings you have of frustration, a little bit of anxiety, etc., do you feel a sense of like responsibility in a weird way? Because there was a percentage chance of sort of intervening in these things. This is a complex question to ask, but it's...

**Harris:** I do think about how different it could have been. I do think about it in the context of the number of people who are being impacted in such a horrible way. I think of it in terms of the number of people who are existing and living in utter fear right now, afraid of being attacked or afraid of being targeted with hate, much less misinformation. Yeah, I do. And I know that the race that I ran for president of the United States, the outcome of that election is what has happened, and it would have been different. It would have been very different. I try not to allow myself to think too much this way, I will tell you that, because for better and worse, I really do like to be centered on the present.

**Host:** So, let's go. I want to understand the set of circumstances that created someone like you because you're an anomaly. There's a lot of firsts that appear in your career, but if we start at the beginning, what is the context that shapes someone to become such an anomaly in their professional career?

**Harris:** My parents and the community that raised me. My mother arrived from India in the United States at the age of 19 by herself. My mother naturally at that young age became aligned with the civil rights movement in Berkeley and Oakland, California. Met my father who had been a national scholar in Jamaica. They fell in love and here I am. My sister and I were born and we were born in an environment where everyone was fighting for justice and for freedom and for equality. Every message we got was you are important and you have a duty to figure out how you're going to participate.

**Host:** I noticed this as I was reading through your story, how service and helping others seems to be so interwoven into your DNA. And even we spoke to Doug, your husband, and he was telling me a story about your first date with him.

**Harris:** What did he tell you?

**Host:** Well, apparently you made a remark on that first date that you're here to help people and to serve people. He told me many things. I have many pages of what Doug said. Very fascinating. He's very in love with you, by the way.

**Harris:** I'm very in love with my husband and he's very funny. I hope you got a sense of...

**Host:** He was hilarious guy.

**Harris:** Yeah. Well, he and I had such different careers, both of us being lawyers, right? He went immediately into private practice. I never wanted to be in private practice. It was never about money for me. It was always about people and how could I do the work that was about protecting people and giving people dignity.

**Host:** Why protecting people?

**Harris:** I think there's a lot that has to do also maybe with birth order. I'm the eldest. And from the age of 2 years old, my mother told me, "Take care of your sister. Look out for your sister."

**Host:** You've got all kinds of pictures. I've been through everything. Yeah. This is my sister Maya.

**Harris:** And that's me protecting her. I grew up also, you know, seeing how my mother, who was a 5-ft tall brown woman with an accent, would be treated. She taught me this, my extended family taught me. But then I also witnessed the importance of making sure that all people, that their dignity is respected and protected. And I have lived a life to see where that doesn't always happen.

**Host:** So you decide to focus on law in public practice. You have a phenomenal career from that point onwards. It's really remarkable what you're able to accomplish and this is I guess where a lot of the firsts come in because from the age of 24 to 51 you rise from deputy district attorney to California's attorney general becoming the first woman and first black person to hold both roles. And you led major reforms in that time, including securing $25 billion in homeowner relief after the 2008 crisis, launching the back on track LA rehabilitation program, and making California the state the first state to mandate body cameras for justice agents and much more. An incredible career up until that point. That could have been it. You could have bowed out at that point and celebrated.

**Harris:** There's so much more to be done. There's so much more to be done. I think one of my strengths and weaknesses is I like to solve problems, but that means that I tend to once a problem has been addressed, move on to the next one without maybe taking the time to pat myself on the back because now it's time to move on to the next issue.

**Host:** During your career, you saw some horrific things. That's the nature of your job. You deal with the darkest parts of reality.

**Harris:** Parts of human behavior and nature I've seen. Yeah, you're right.

**Host:** Give me some context there. What does that mean in reality?

**Harris:** Well, for a while I specialized in child sexual assault, which is about the most horrendous of abuse and crime, which is an adult abusing a child. And those cases were so difficult for so many reasons. I mean, there's a couple that I remember in particular where the children were so young that they wouldn't be able to testify. One was an elementary school little girl. And I remember going into the bathroom of the courthouse and crying because I knew a jury would not have enough to convict and it broke my heart. I have thought about that little girl, you know, years and years and years later. But those cases, you know, it's the worst of human behavior, which is we as a society should be in the business of protecting children and protecting their vulnerability so that they can thrive. I've prosecuted homicide cases. I've prosecuted fraud cases.

**Host:** How does one deal with all of this stress and responsibility? And I'm not just referring to your time as attorney general, but even thereafter with running for president and the ups and downs of that, the public feedback, the pressure, the responsibility of potentially running the free world basically and becoming the most powerful person on earth and the ups, the downs, the attacks, the child abuses. How does one learn? Is there a framework you've built? Is there are there ideas or principles that you've developed to deal with such pressure?

**Harris:** Well, this may sound trite, but I work out every day.

**Host:** Yeah.

**Harris:** I work out every morning, no matter how little sleep I've had. I just find it to be just mind, body, and soul.

**Host:** Have you changed over time?

**Harris:** Oh, for sure I've changed over time. The pressure has changed in magnitude. But the pressure that I feel in terms of my sense of personal responsibility has not changed. I put a lot of... I hold myself to a very high standard and I tend to be a perfectionist even though I am far from perfect. You know, I mean even during the 107 days every night I would stay awake thinking what more could I have done with that one day.

**Host:** 24-year-old Kamala Harris who starts as that sort of deputy district attorney. If I sat her there and you're sat there now as madame vice president, what would be the notable differences in personality, mentality, in perspective?

**Harris:** Oh, that's interesting. Well, I mean, I don't know if that's changed, but she was fearless. She was fearless. She didn't hear "no, it can't be done." And whether it was the first case that I had and I was a young prosecutor and I was going through the files and it was a Friday evening and I realized that the person who had been arrested had young children at home, a woman, and all the courts were shutting down and I went to the courtroom and I asked the judge, "Please take the bench again. She has young children. She can't stay in over the weekend." And the clerk was like, "Nope, he's gone for the day. He's leaving for the day." And I would not leave. And they called the case, you know, but not hearing no. I just... that has been probably a throughline of my life. I don't rest easy with the idea that something is not possible. At least I don't rest easy with it without trying to show that it is possible. And that's probably not changed. I also have started to sit better with the idea that you can't change everyone.

**Host:** How does that change your approach knowing that you can't change everybody?

**Harris:** I'm better able to assess a situation to figure out what is the potential there. And be perhaps a bit more realistic without being, I think, jaded about it.

**Host:** And I guess that's wisdom and experiences.

**Harris:** Yeah. It comes with a bit of experience which allows you to be more efficient and effective. That's exactly right. Because that is how I reconcile it, which is the effort is better placed somewhere else.

**Host:** And at what point in this journey did you realize that you wanted to be president of the United States? Like was there a lunch or a dinner you had with Doug? When does that decision get made in your career?

**Harris:** It was when I was in the Senate. I ran into a friend who came up, Doug and I were at a basically a family table in a local restaurant eating and he said to me, "You should run for president." And it had not occurred to me until then. It had not occurred to me to run for president. There are people who are born thinking they're going to be president. There are people who look in the mirror every day and see a president. I was not one of those people. But then the thought, it kind of germinated. And then of course being vice president and doing the work of vice president of the United States, I met with over 150 world leaders, presidents, prime ministers, chancellors and kings. I've negotiated very important deals and issues on behalf of the American people. I've spent countless hours not only in the Oval Office but the situation room and traveling around the world. And so in those 107 days, I was fully aware of not only the importance of the job, but fully aware that I had the experience and knowledge to be able to do it effectively.

**Host:** I'm wondering if you've experienced that in your career where the higher you've climbed, you've realized that actually everybody up here is like... I'm like that, or I'm at least on their level. Have you had that experience in your career?

**Harris:** Yes, I have. And but I've also had the imposter syndrome experience and that was when I was first elected DA and I challenged the incumbent. I started out at six points in the polls which is six out of 100. You know people recently asked me about polls. Well, you know, if I listened to polls, I would have never run for my first office and therefore we wouldn't be having this interview probably. And I won. And it was not expected that I would, at least when I jumped in the race. And there I was sitting in the office and I thought, "Oh my god, I'm now the elected DA of a major city in the United States." In hindsight, maybe we call it imposter syndrome. To your point, maybe it is a very loaded term because I think there is nothing wrong with having a certain level of humility and I think that there's a lot that is good with having a certain level of humility, in particular when the people have vested you with great power. To understand it's not about you. I think that is part and parcel of what we call imposter syndrome or who has it. I think often it is because they understand how serious the job is on behalf of others.

**Host:** And I applaud a bit of humility, honest humility, not feigned humility.

**Harris:** Right. Cuz there are plenty of people that are, you know, self-deprecating for the sake of the shtick of it all. But yes, to your point, the higher you go, it does. It does because the more you're exposed to being in the rooms with the people who otherwise feel untouchable, the more you understand that they are not untouchable.

**Host:** It's a polite way of putting it.

**Harris:** The more you understand everyone's got a little dust on them. And they're not... not everyone's shiny.

**Host:** But it's liberating to know that that's the case because we all put a ceiling above us and we think that's my level and everyone above that has some gift that I will never be able to attain. So I won't even strive to break that ceiling because I don't deserve to be up there.

**Harris:** But also don't discount the signals that many people are sent that you don't belong there. And I, especially when I'm mentoring people, will often say to them, don't ever limit yourself based on other people's limited ability to see who you are. That's their limitations to see who you are and your capacity. Don't impose those limitations on yourself.

**Host:** Well, I mean, this that photo I showed you before we started recording that LeBron posted is a pretty iconic example. I'll put it on the screen, but it just goes to show all the vice presidents that came before you, and frankly, they all look the same. So, one might fall into the trap of thinking that if I don't look like this, then I can't do this job.

**Harris:** I'll see you and add one. And everyone else thinks that this is the image of who can do the job. So the added challenge is not only the limitations one puts on themselves but the limitations one might be met with around other people's perceptions about who can do what.

**Host:** And have you had that through your career? Is there any particular examples that always sit at the front of your mind where you really really felt that the room you were in, people were discounting you purely based on appearance or gender or race or anything like that?

**Harris:** I mean, there are times in my career when I walked in the room and someone said, you know, something along if they didn't know me, if they didn't know what they were walking into, you know, they were waiting for my boss.

**Host:** And how did you deal with that? How do you stop that suppressing you? Because it's very easy to feel that and to shrink.

**Harris:** You will often be, you may often be the only one who walks into a boardroom, a courtroom, a meeting room, who looks like yourself or has had your life experiences. But when you walk in that room, walk in that room, chin up, shoulders back, knowing there are so many people who are not in that room, who are so proud of you walking in that room and expect that you will use the voice that you carry. You know, and there are tools that one has to employ when you otherwise are aware that you might be presenting the unfamiliar. But what I also would caution is don't walk in that room with the assumption that your value will not be recognized. Right? And so again, this gets back to my point about we all have to moderate what limitations are we putting on ourselves with what limitations are being sent our way.

**Host:** And when you say tools...

**Harris:** Well, just like that, when you walk into that room, see all the people. I think sometimes of Mrs. Francis Wilson, who was my first grade teacher who attended my law school graduation. I think of my mother who would say to me calmly, "Don't you ever let anyone tell you who you are. You tell them who you are." Right? And you think of these people when you walk into these important rooms to remind you. It's a tool I have used over a period of time and it has served me well.

**Host:** Yes, there's Mrs. Wilson. That's at my law school graduation. And that's my mother. That's exactly right. How about that? Yeah. Where'd you get all these pictures?

**Harris:** Yeah. That's Mrs. Wilson.

**Host:** And so, why is thinking of Mrs. Wilson helping you when you walk into those rooms?

**Harris:** Because there is, I think, a key to success that each of us who has achieved success probably shares, which is there has been someone at least, and it could be a parent, it could be a teacher, it could be a neighbor, it could be a pastor, someone who convinced you you were special. You may not have been particularly special, but they told you you were and you believed them. I know that's true for me. I may not have been particularly special, but I had a few people who told me I was and I believed them. But with that came, "therefore don't do this thing." "Cuz you're special, you know you shouldn't be doing that thing." But go in that room. I think when we talk about mentorship, when we think about the signals that we as a society send to children, and I mean all of our children, our own children, the children of a community which we should think of as our children, to send them signals that tell them they are special and then back that up with giving them the resources would make us a much stronger society.

**Host:** And at some point you get a call from Mr. President.

**Harris:** I got a call from then nominee, Democratic nominee Joe Biden. We facetimed. It was during the height of COVID. And he asked me to be his running mate. And it was a great honor and I was honored to do it.

**Host:** Did you have any inclination before that moment that he was going to ask you?

**Harris:** So, no. I had an interview. I had an interview and it was like something out of a spy movie where I had my assistant drove me to one location. This was in DC. And then it was a mall. And then I got out of that car to get in another car that was because the press were watching everything to see who... there was a short list that was out... who was going to be. So we had to do this whole clandestine thing. And then I got into another car being driven by one of his assistants and then we went to this, you know, this very circuitous route to a house and then through the back door. The windows were closed, the shades were closed and I had my interview.

**Host:** I'm so intrigued to know. I've done many interviews in my life. I've been in a couple of interviews myself. How does someone get interviewed to be the vice president? Like what are the questions one is asked?

**Harris:** Well, having been in the position of both being the interviewer and the interviewee, it really as much as anything comes down to chemistry. Because by the time that that interview is happening, it's usually narrowed down to about three people. So, all the vetting has been done. I mean, the vetting... I had such a truncated experience when I was running for president of just a couple of weeks, but I think Joe Biden took like nine weeks to make a decision. And so there's vetting when I was being vetted for vice president. I had a, I don't know, 9-hour interview with a lawyer going through everything, everything. My taxes, my professional record, everything that was everything, everything. I mean, talk about a colonoscopy. It was just virtually. That's kind of what it was. And so when all of that has been done and it's kind of green light, green light through that, then it's about sitting down and just deciding because it is going to be a partnership, right? And it has to be where you feel that you can trust someone. You could work with them. You are doing it for the same reasons.

**Host:** Was it what you thought it was going to be, being vice president?

**Harris:** I didn't know exactly what it would be because there's nothing that can compare to it. I mean, I was the 49th vice president of the United States. There have only been 48 before me. Right. And I don't think anything can truly prepare you for what it is because it is a very unique position where you are number two in command. The seriousness of the responsibility is that... I give all credit to now the late President Jimmy Carter who decided when he was president, having come off of Kennedy and Nixon and everything, he decided that the vice president should be given greater responsibilities than had been the case because God forbid something happens to the president, there should be a smooth succession. And so Walter Mondale was his vice president and was the first to have an office in the West Wing.

**Host:** When I was reading your book 107 days, one of the really surprising things was, but also makes sense when I understand human nature, was that you talk about how some of the president's staff were basically suppressing you a little bit, suppressing your accomplishments because you're a threat to them. And I think you were told pretty early on or you had heard pretty early on from a chief of staff that...

**Harris:** ...the vice president is kind of seen as a threat to the president. So, the lore has it that the outgoing chief of staff to the president will tell the incoming chief of staff to the incoming president regardless of political party. Rule number one, watch the vice president. Lore has it that that's the case. And then I had of course run against Joe Biden. I was very and acutely aware that I would have to over and over again prove my loyalty, that it wouldn't be assumed.

**Host:** You say in the book the president's staff was adding fuel to negative narratives that sprung up about me. The president's inner circle seemed fine with it. Indeed, it seemed as if they decided I should be knocked down a little bit more.

**Harris:** To be candid with you, I had a sense of it for quite some time, but it was after the election that I really started to hear the stories about it. I mean, I had a sense of it. It was clear to me in terms of just the challenges with getting them to uplift, getting them to defend, especially when there were inaccurate, unfair attacks. And then I started to hear more stories after.

**Host:** And what you mean by that is when there were unfair media attacks on you that could quite easily have been rebutted or debunked, there was no desire to debunk them.

**Harris:** There was... the staff and the resources under the president as compared to the vice president are enormous. And to the extent that the vice president is being attacked, resources were available but not used to defend the vice president in the way that they could have that would have inured to the benefit of everyone involved.

**Host:** Cuz that's what I think. There was an argument to say it was in their interests because if you and Joe Biden are strong, you're more likely... Joe Biden's more likely to then win the next election.

**Harris:** Exactly. That's my point. We rose and fell together.

**Host:** And did Joe Biden know that that was happening?

**Harris:** I don't know if he did, but it's the staff underneath him that are in charge of that. I think that that was part of it. I do. I think that they decided that, you know, there are far too many people in this world and in professional life who approach things with a zero-sum game. If I have more, you have less. And it is incredibly shortsighted. And I think it's actually quite provincial thinking when you're talking about the stakes that were at play in our administration and of course in the election.

**Host:** Are you friends with Joe Biden? Is the relationship good?

**Harris:** It's a good relationship. I just talked to him two days ago. He called me for my birthday.

**Host:** Is it complicated?

**Harris:** Yes, it's very complicated. It is. And as I write in the book, I have a great deal of affection for him. And there were times that I've been quite candid about where he greatly disappointed me and frankly, you know, angered me.

**Host:** Can you give me context on where he disappointed and angered you?

**Harris:** So, I write... and I thought about this. Was I going to write about it or not? And I decided in writing this book, I was going to just be honest and these are the facts and the reader can take what they want from it. On the day of the debate, my debate with Trump. And you know, so going into a presidential debate is an incredibly intense and intensive project, including what has historically happened that we even called debate camp. Can you imagine? And it's no camp at all. It's going into where you basically are sequestered for a period of time immediately before the debate. So the day of the debate was after that intense period of preparation and then that morning I had a meeting with my team. I thought it was going to be more prep but they actually were wonderful and just basically said to me, "You're ready."

**Harris:** So, okay then being a woman running for president and many women in various high level positions get their hair and makeup done. Back to your point about presentation and it can take hours. Hair and makeup got done. I'm in the hotel room with Doug, with my husband, and the president calls. I was told that he wanted to call me so that I'd be ready. And I was so sure it was to buck me up and go get him. And he did say that for the first beat. And then he went on to talk about a group of people in Pennsylvania who were saying bad things about me because they heard I was saying bad things about him. And when I hung up the phone, I was just... it was unbelievable. And I was... yes, I was angry and deeply disappointed. It just was so unnecessary. There are only two people in the world other than me that has debated this guy, Hillary Clinton and him. And you know what it's like? It's going into a debate with the stakes being that high and Trump hadn't agreed to another debate. The stakes were so high. So that's an example of what I mean.

**Host:** You took something from that. You took an underlying message about one's intentions from that. Cuz I would if someone called me in the leadup to debate prep and said something like that to me, I would assume that they don't want the best for me.

**Harris:** My takeaway is his motivation was all about himself.

**Host:** Do you think he wanted you to win the election?

**Harris:** I do because I was the only one who would be able to preserve his legacy.

**Host:** But even that's about him.

**Harris:** Well, if I had to assume one of the reasons why he'd want me to win, if... yeah. And of course, you know that this all wouldn't be happening. I don't think anybody who cares about the future of the country, the democracy, or even just protecting the Constitution of the United States would have wanted this. Yeah.

**Host:** I watch all these debates. I've been such a big fan of American politics. I watched that debate. But the debate that came before with Biden and Trump. It was so apparently clear that this was not okay. And it felt like the whole of the Democratic side of politics was pretending everything was okay.

**Harris:** This was clearly an individual that was very much struggling with articulation, with ideas.

**Host:** And in the face of someone like Trump who, to his credit, is able to pounce on that to be very clear.

**Harris:** And he, and he interestingly enough, because of course I watched that debate very closely for many, many reasons including I had four interviews right after his debate to speak on behalf of the president during the debate. And what was interesting in that debate was also to watch how... it's a very rare circumstance that you see Donald Trump actually moderate. It was fascinating.

**Host:** You must have known. You sat there. You were in LA at the time, right?

**Harris:** I was in LA at the Fairmont Hotel watching and taking vigorous notes. The president did, Biden did, call me from debate camp. And I could tell something was a little off. And I was concerned about... I just... he... I don't think he wanted to debate is my point. He didn't want that debate. And you know, it's like any competition you go in, whether it's you're bidding for something, if it's sports, you got to want it. Right. If you don't want to be in the competition, it will absolutely have an impact on your performance. And I'm pretty sure he did not want to debate.

**Host:** How do you know? What were the signs?

**Harris:** Well, we had conversations about it. I think he got talked into it. And in any event, so I'm watching the debate with my tight team. I wanted it to be a small team so I could just be candid as it's happening because I know I have four interviews right after. And you know, in every debate, I don't care who you are, there will be a statistic wrong or you name this country, but it was that country. That always happens. There is no such thing as a perfect debate. So there will be something to clean up. I expected that. And then, you know, we saw what we all saw.

**Host:** It was a car crash. It was a historic car crash.

**Host:** So what was the real strategy going into that debate with Trump? Because you had those same moments where the cats and the dogs and all that unbelievable stuff. And at home I was thinking, "Oh, she's trying to trigger him and it's working."

**Harris:** Yeah, because he's so predictable that way. Well, the first thing is that we had empty pads on our podium. And in the debate camp and then therefore when I walked on stage after I shook his hand, went back to my podium, I wrote a smiley face and cuz I just decided I was going to have fun because one of the things about these kinds of debates in particular is the person who's having fun wins.

**Host:** That's so true. We watched it back the other day and you're smiling and you look like you're enjoying it and he looks frustrated.

**Harris:** Yeah. So, that was intentional was to if you look like you're having fun... well, have fun, but though not just look cuz I think it's very difficult to look like you're having fun if you're not, right? You've got to find... you have to... this is true for life. You got to see the humor in it. Otherwise, it's just going to undo you. Especially if you're dealing with heavy stuff, you've got to see the humor in it. And you know, like when he pulled out the cats and dogs thing, I couldn't even believe it.

**Host:** Let's give context for anyone that doesn't know. Okay. Yes. From what I understand, it's faint in my memory, but there was this like crazy rumor that Haitian immigrants in Ohio were eating their pets, cats and dogs.

**Harris:** So I hadn't even heard about it cuz I'm in debate camp, right? And then two members of my team see him get off his Trump plane with the main purveyor of this nonsense. And then they realize if she's on the plane with him, it is very possible the last thing he heard was this thing. So they last minute tell me. Sure enough, it did come up in the debate. But see, here's the thing that I would say to you, Stephen, that again, one of the reasons I wrote the book is also there are lessons to be learned from those 107 days to be applied today. I believe that part of what is the method is say the outrageous thing, then everyone is going to focus on that outrageous thing. And meanwhile this is happening, right? And so meanwhile... misdirection.

**Host:** Here's what I've come to learn in the last sort of 10 years working in marketing is I have this particular chapter in my last book where I say useless absurdity defines will define you more as a brand than useful practicality.

**Harris:** Right, that's beautifully said.

**Host:** I actually think to Trump's strategy is he leads with... he's a master labeler. Sleepy Joe. You can't discount the guy in terms of that.

**Harris:** He is very gifted.

**Host:** How do you beat someone playing that game?

**Harris:** You have to be relentless on focusing on what's actually happening. And it means also deconstructing. So one of the things for example that I've been talking about recently is there's a word that applies so well to him in this era which is a phrase gaslighting. Right? So there's a whole lot of gaslighting happening which is basically misrepresenting, lying, scapegoating, distracting, right, from what's really occurring. He's basically saying to the American people, you have less because of people who have even less than you.

**Host:** Here's the counterpoint. It works.

**Harris:** Yes, evidently. But there is, you know, but at some point the veneer and the deflection has to wear off. I don't know when exactly that is going to happen. And I think that, you know, listen, the tariffs taking hold and when we get around to the holiday season and people realize how many toys are made in China... what strengthens that approach is the rapid amount of disinformation that is spreading. It's so much and it just spreads like wildfire. And trying to stay in front of that with fact, much less, to your point, practical messaging and logic, it is a real challenge.

**Host:** So, my question here is how does the Democratic Party win in such a war when you're being fought with emotion and fear? How do you win with logic and rationality?

**Harris:** I'll answer your question directly but I want to just add to the question that I think part of the question has to be what is the responsibility of media? What is the role of corporate-owned media? God bless independent media. Because a lot of it is also about what set of information are people working with. I think it's a big mistake for us to assume we're all working with the same information. And then when you compound that with, you know, intentional efforts to misinform and disinform and targeted... We know that certain demographics are targeted with miss and disinformation. So when we talk about the role of the Democratic party, there is a very big role to play and there is a role for us to require social media companies to play, media companies to play and so on because information is coming from all of these places and the challenge is as big as, are we all working with facts.

**Host:** Many would say that it changed the course of the election. Podcasting. There was lots of conversation around you going on Joe Rogan's show or not going on.

**Harris:** I wanted to do Joe Rogan's show and there was a lot of games being played but I wanted to do Joe Rogan's show. I think podcasting is a very powerful medium for people to get information.

**Host:** In hindsight, do you wish you'd gone and done the show for 3 hours at his studio?

**Harris:** I wanted to do his show and a lot of people advised me not to do his show because they assumed, as it turned out to be correct, that he was supporting Trump and that it would not be a productive piece for me. But just like when I went on Fox News with Brett Baier, my perspective was they may have their bias, but there are people that listen who are open-minded, and I'm going to go there and give them a chance to get to know me and give me a chance to make my case to them. So, that was my perspective on Joe Rogan, just like it was my perspective on Fox. There was a lot of games being played around the scheduling and it didn't happen. I definitely regret that we didn't do it.

**Host:** On that night when the results come in and you realize that the election hasn't gone your way and that Trump is going to be elected. What would I have seen if I was a fly on the wall in the room?

**Harris:** I was in a state of shock.

**Host:** Really? Did you think the day before that you were going to win?

**Harris:** Mhm. Yeah.

**Host:** And so when did the proverbial penny drop?

**Harris:** When I got a call from my campaign manager that it looks like we need 200,000 more votes that we can't find. Meaning, it's just the map, the numbers. I was in a state of shock. What I kept saying over and over again is, "My God, my God, my God." I couldn't stop. I haven't felt that emotion, anything similar to the emotion I felt that day for quite some time, other than the grief I felt when my mother died. I knew what was going to happen to our country. I knew the harm that was going to happen to people. I knew it. I knew what was going to happen. It's not like it's not about winning versus losing. It was... I knew the consequence of the outcome of that election and that pained me.

**Host:** I can still see the pain in your face.

**Harris:** Oh, it's awful. It's awful. You look at what's happening. The man is building a ballroom for a bunch of his rich friends while millions and millions of people are about to lose their health coverage in terms of their being able to afford premiums for their health care. You look at the weaponization of the Department of Justice against political enemies. How titans of industry are so afraid that the capitulation that we're seeing across the board, whether it be universities, law firms, media companies. What's happening around gutting the Department of Education, lunch programs for low-income children. IEPs, individual education placement for special needs kids. I've recently I'm hearing the stories from mothers in particular whose children have special needs and they can't get an IEP. These are babies, the children who are most in need. Meanwhile, you're building a gilded ballroom. So, the harm, it's extraordinary.

**Harris:** It must be said the failure of the Democratic party will be going forward to overlook the fact that it is bigger than this one guy. It is not just about this one person who occupies the oval office. We are witnessing what is the swift implementation, a high velocity event that is the swift implementation of a plan that has been decades in the making. The strategy for dealing with this moment has to include having some historical perspective on how we got here. That project 2025 didn't just fall out of the sky. The idea of going after public education, that's not new. The Federalist Society, the Heritage Foundation, the gerrymandering of districts, the packing the court, this stuff. This is about an agenda that is not going to begin and end with one person.

**Host:** The Democratic party needs to take responsibility. The left lost. They played it wrong. From the Democratic perspective, they're paying the price of losing the game of chess. And so I think about the Democratic party and they need to get their shit together so that they don't lose the game again.

**Harris:** I agree.

**Host:** You say in the book that you at the time thought of it as grace. You talk about this on page 46. You say you thought it was grace to not basically mention that there was a problem and grace not to tell Joe Biden to pull out earlier, but actually in hindsight, you now think it was probably reckless not to tell him to pull out.

**Harris:** On my part. Yeah.

**Host:** So what does the Democratic Party need to do?

**Harris:** First of all, you know, if I had done it over again, part of the reflection, we had the infrastructure deal. We had the Chips Act, so we're building back up America's infrastructure. It's 150 years old. Chips is about manufacturing chips, US manufacturing, both incredibly important. If I had to do it over again, I would have first gone with our family policy that was about extension of the child tax credit, affordable child care, paid family leave. We needed to deal with the immediate issues affecting the American people. For example, I think we should reduce voting age to 16.

**Harris:** Gen Z, they're age about 13 through 27. They've only known the climate crisis. They missed substantial parts of their education because of the pandemic. They've coined the term climate anxiety. They are a larger number than boomers. I think we must invest in them. If they were able to vote because they know everything that's happening right now is going to impact them more than anybody older than them. If they're voting right now at 16 and up, they're going to be talking about the importance of climate. They're going to be talking about the importance of figuring out how AI is going to affect the future of the workforce. They're going to be focused on what are we really doing about affordable housing. And basically in politics, here's the hard truth about this. There are two centers of power that tend to influence how politicians think. Groups that vote the most and people who write the most checks. And I'm going to go every day with the people. And thinking about how do we strengthen people actually going to the polls and voting. Back to my point in 2024 one-third of the electorate didn't vote. Let's focus on why and are we talking with them? Are we offering them bold solutions?

**Host:** Are you going to run again? Cuz I look at the polls. I looked at the polls and you're leading for the Democratic side and there isn't really a clear Democratic candidate.

**Harris:** I don't know. Honestly, I don't know.

**Host:** What's the case for running again and what's the case for not running again?

**Harris:** I think the case for running again is if I can make a difference. Honestly, if I can make a difference. You know, if I feel that I can offer something as president of the United States that would be not only uplifting to the American people, but would be about, you know, getting us on a correct trajectory.

**Host:** Is there a case against running again? What would that be?

**Harris:** You know, it's difficult to run for president. It takes a toll on your family. Takes a real toll on your family. You know, anyone running for president should really take very seriously the decision cuz it is not for the faint of heart. You have to be able to take a punch and throw a punch, but you got to be able to take a punch.

**Host:** Do you regret running with only 107 days notice? Do you wish you hadn't ran?

**Harris:** No, I don't regret running. I wish we had more time. I truly wish we had more time. I don't regret running.

**Host:** Had you known the outcome, would you have still ran?

**Harris:** Probably. Because you know one of the things that happened and to this day men and women, girls and boys come up to me and say there was something about that campaign that excited something in them. I can't tell you the number of people who have come up to me and said, "I decided to run for office because you ran." I absolutely believe that we turned something on. In fact, I'm going to say this differently because it's not like people didn't have it in them. They had it in them, but there was something that those 107 days did to welcome, to invite, to grow the optimism and dare I say the joy that people do carry with them. And what I hope to do with my voice right now is to remind everyone, please don't let your spirit be defeated. We may not have won the election, but our spirit can't be defeated because then they really win. And sometimes the fight takes a while, right? So, I don't regret having run in spite of the outcome. But I do regret that we did not have more time.

**Host:** I think I'd probably be turning to my partner in those moments. Talk to me about that. What role did he play?

**Harris:** Oh, I definitely did. He is... it sounds so corny, but he truly is my rock. He is... my husband is just fully self-actualized. He's not pretending to be anything he's not. He is a strong man who cares about his family, cares about hard work. He is loyal. He has a sense of humor. He's very encouraging. He's very honest.

**Host:** Do you remember what he said to you that night?

**Harris:** Well, he was in as much of a state of shock as I was. We didn't... I have to admit, we were not very articulate that night.

**Host:** How long did that last?

**Harris:** Well, not until I started writing the book and getting to the chapter on election night. Do you know that was the first time Doug and I talked about election night? We had never talked about election night. Never. Had never talked about election night. It was when I was writing the book. That's when he told me something I had no idea, which is he and my brother-in-law had been campaigning on election day in Michigan. All felt good. Then on their way back to DC, they got a call from a friend of ours who was a Democrat who but who was a pundit on Fox News and he was in their boiler room, their war room. And he calls Doug and my brother-in-law Tony to say, "What are you guys hearing? Cuz what I'm hearing concerns me." I didn't know that happened. All I knew was Doug went campaigning with Tony. I was campaigning. Everybody was campaigning. I had a house full of family. When he came back to the house, I knew something was like a little off in retrospect. What I didn't know is he had that information. And he had gone up the stairs to take a shower and pray.