时间循环的想象
Gilbert Cruz: 大家好,我是 Gilbert Cruz,欢迎收听《纽约时报》书评节目。今天我想请你们想象一个场景:某天早晨醒来,你像往常一样开始一天的生活,但一种怪异的感觉开始涌上心头。一切似乎都很熟悉,太熟悉了。最终,一个念头悄悄溜进你的脑海:有没有可能你正在重新度过昨天?你度过了这一天,一天结束了,你睡觉了,引用原话,“明天到来,却依然是同一天。”然后又是同一天。不知何故,你被困在了时间里。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: Hello, I'm Gilbert Cruz and this is the book review from the New York Times. Today I want you to imagine a scenario. You wake up one morning and you start to go about your day as you do every day and an eerie feeling begins to arise. Everything seems familiar, too familiar. Eventually, a realization starts to creep into your mind. Is it possible you're reliving yesterday? You go through the day, the day passes, you go to sleep, quote, "Tomorrow arrives and it is the same day yet again." And then it is the same day yet again. Somehow you have become stuck in time.
Gilbert Cruz: “好吧,又是**《土拨鼠之日》(Groundhog Day)。”这就是我们要讨论的内容。但不是《土拨鼠之日》,那部由 Bill Murray 主演的 1993 年经典电影。我们要聊的是另一个热门的时间循环故事。这是一部由丹麦作家 SV Balla 创作的七卷本系列丛书,书名叫做《体积计算》**(On the Calculation of Volume)。自 2024 年其英文译本首次出版以来,它已获得多项大奖提名,并成为文学界的一个“冷门神作”。该系列的第四本书刚刚在美国出版,我邀请了书评栏目的两位同事来聊聊这部作品:我们的评论员 AO Scott(Tony Scott)和编辑 Jumanna Khatib。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> Well, it's Groundhog Day again. >> That's what we're here to talk about. Not Groundhog Day. a classic 1993 film starring Bill Murray. We are here to talk about another hit time loop story. This one a seven book series written by the Danish author SV Bala. It's called On the Calculation of Volume and since its English translations first published in 2024. It has been nominated for several major awards and has become something of a an under the radar phenomenon among the literary sect. Book four in this series has just been published here in America and I have two of my colleagues from the book review here to talk about the series. AO Scott, Tony Scott, our critic at large and Jim Katib, an editor here and my frequent guest, my frequent foil.
Gilbert Cruz: Jumanna,欢迎。Tony,欢迎。在咱们开始之前,Tony 会在讨论结束后留下来,为听众推荐一些其他值得关注的翻译文学作品。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> Jima, welcome. >> Thank you, Gilbert. >> Tony, welcome. >> Hi. Good to be here. You're going to stay on after the three of us talk to make some recommendations for other books in translation that listeners should check out. >> Absolutely.
丹麦作家的七卷本巨著
Gilbert Cruz: 在开始之前,我想先做一个简短的剧透预警。我们主要讨论前三本书,但肯定会涉及到第四部的内容。所以,如果你正准备读第四部,先去读完再回来。Tony,让我们回到起点。你能告诉我们这一切是怎么开始的吗?关于这位作者,关于这个系列。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> So, no move. Before we start, I want to just put a brief spoiler alert here. We're primarily going to talk about the first three books, but we definitely dip into the events of book four. So, if you're on the verge of reading that, finish it, come back, we'll be here for you. Okay, Tony, we're going to loop back to the beginning here. Can you tell us where this where this all started? Tell us about this author. Tell us about this this series.
AO Scott: 好的。SV Balla 现在 60 多岁,是一位丹麦小说家,在这部作品之前她写过一些东西。早在 1987 年——顺便说一下,是在《土拨鼠之日》上映之前——她就有了这个想法:如果有人被困在时间里,不断重复同一天,那会是什么样子?随着时间的推移,这个项目占据了她的生活。她住在丹麦一个偏远的小岛上,从事这项工作已经很久了。这是一部七卷本的作品。我猜在斯堪的纳维亚,你必须以七本为一组来出版书,“七部曲”(Septology)在那儿是个大事,Knausgaard 这么干过,Jon Fosse 也这么干过。
这部作品先是在欧洲,现在在北美,真正积累了一批追随者。我可以给你讲个轶事,我正准备写评论时,手里拿着第四卷的样书走来走去,一个我认识的人看到说:“噢,你有第四卷了!我刚读到第二卷的一半,别告诉我后面发生了什么。”这种对书的迫切感和兴奋感非常奇妙,因为严格来说,书中什么都没发生,同一天在不断重复。我不想剧透,但到第四卷结束时,这一天已经重复了 3637 次。
Original English
AO Scott: >> Well, it started um SV Bal is uh she's in her 60s. She's a Danish novelist and she'd written some things before this. And at some point, as early as 1987, she had this idea, before Groundhog Day, by the way, was was released to have, you know, what if somebody got stuck in time and and kept repeating the same day again and again and again and what what would that be like? And it it over time the project sort of took over her life. She lives on a small island um a sort of remote island in Denmark and has been working on this for a very long time. It's this seven volume. Um I guess in Scandinavia you have to publish books in groups of seven. The septtology is a big uh a big thing there. Canowskar did it and and Yan Fosa and they have first in Europe and and now in North America really kind of accumulated this following. I can tell you anecdotally, I was walking around with the galley for volume 4 as I was getting ready to to review it and someone who I who I know a little bit kind of said, "Oh, you've got volume four. I'm in the middle of volume two. Don't tell me what happens." And and there's this kind of like urgency and excitement about this book in which in some ways, strictly speaking, nothing happens. And the same day repeats itself. I don't want to spoil it, but by the end of volume four, it's repeated itself 3,6 I think 37 times.
塔拉·塞尔特的时间迷局
Gilbert Cruz: 我觉得此时有必要退一步,说明一些非常基础的剧情细节。书的主角叫 Tara Selter。她住在法国,在一次出差买书的过程中——她和丈夫经营着一家古籍书店——发现自己在 11 月 18 日再次醒来,还是 11 月 18 日。到了第二天,依然是 11 月 18 日。她每天醒来都在重复这一天。她生活中没有其他人也在重复这一天,只有她自己。然后你会发现关于她如何在这个世界上行动、她接触的东西如何存在或消失的各种细节。这是一种深思熟虑的设定,探讨了如果你不得不一遍又一遍地经历这件事会发生什么。Jumanna,你最初是怎么接触到这些书的?
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> I think it's important at this point just take a step back and and say some very basic plot details here. This is a book about a a woman named uh Tara Seltter. She lives in France and she after taking a trip to uh try to get some books, she and her husband have a company. Do they sell antiquarian books? Discovers on the 18th of November that she has woken up again on the 18th of November. And then on the next day, it is still the 18th of November. And she wakes up every day and is reliving the same day. Nobody else in her life is reliving the same day. It is just her. And then there are all these other things you discover about how she moves in the world, how the things that she interacts with, how they exist or don't exist in the world. It's a very like wellthought through take on what would happen if you had to sort of experience this thing over and over again. Jumanna, how did you first come to these books?
Jumanna Khatib: 我读这些书是因为纽约的每个人都在读它们。而且当时我有点轻微的季节性抑郁。所以我做了我通常会做的事:寻求斯堪的纳维亚文学的安慰和解脱。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> I mean, I was just reading them because everybody else in New York was reading them and I was mildly seasonally depressed. Uh-huh. >> So, I did what I usually do and look to the Scandinavians for comfort and relief.
Gilbert Cruz: Jumanna,你刚才说的一点儿也不让我惊讶。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> Jim, nothing that you said just now surprises me.
Jumanna Khatib: 我想我是时候退出这个播客了(笑)。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> I think it's time for me to get off the podcast.
催眠般的叙事风格
Gilbert Cruz: 这本书除了是时间循环题材且长达七卷外,最有趣的特点之一就是它独特的风格。Tara 基本上是以日记的形式在记录她的生活。当我们进入第一本书时,已经是她第 121 次重复 11 月 18 日了。她在写下她的观察。所有的书都是通过她的视角展开的。据我所知,书中没有任何直接引语。很多短小的段落。这种风格让我进入了一种非常催眠的状态,我全程被吸引着读下去。有时我觉得无聊,有时又被深深吸引。这非常迷人。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> Um, one of the interesting things about this book, other than the fact that it is a time loop book that is eventually going to take place over seven volumes, is the very unique style. Here it is. Uh, Tara is writing essentially her life in diary entries. We come into the story, if I'm flip right here, to the first book on day 121 of her reliving November 18th over and over again. So, she's writing her observations. All of the books are through her point of view. There are no direct quotes as far as I can tell in any of the books. A lot of short paragraphs. It put me, and I'd love to hear what it did for you, this style, in in a very hypnotic state where I was drawn along the entire way. At times I was bored, at times I was gripped. Uh, it it's fascinating.
AO Scott: 迷人之处在于,无聊也是阅读体验的一部分,某种程度上它也是书的主题。我的意思是,她的叙述中并没有太多的情感强度。从来没有那一刻她绝望地倒在地上说:“天哪,我为什么逃不出这一天?”她非常善于观察。这是一本情感非常克制的书,但依然有某种引人入胜的力量,甚至带有一种悬疑感。每一卷的结尾都设计得非常巧妙,留下了悬念,吸引你读下一卷。而且每一卷都会改变视角和体验基调,同时始终保持她的声音和情绪,保持她那种既务实又带哲学色彩的自我反思。她一直在沉思这到底是怎么回事,意味着什么。比如,如果你在 11 月 18 日从自动取款机里取了钱,到下一个 11 月 18 日,那笔钱还在取款机里;但如果你在 11 月 18 日从杂货店买了东西,第二天它就会消失。你的消费会把它从这个世界上减掉。
Original English
AO Scott: >> It's fascinating because boredom is part of the experience of reading the book. And it's also the subject of the book in a way. I mean, it it there's not a lot of emotional intensity in her narration. There's never a moment where she sort of flings herself on the floor in despair and says, "My god, why can't I get out of this day?" She's very observant. It's a very emotionally muted book and yet there is something gripping about it and something suspenseful. I mean, every every volume is very cleverly sort of leads up to a cliffhanger. So, it kind of gets you into the next volume. And without saying too much, every every volume changes the perspective and the sort of the tenor of the experience while keeping it always, as you say, in her voice, in her moods, and in her kind of very reflective, both practical-minded and philosophical take on what's happening to her. So, she's sort of musing on on what this is like, what this is about. You know, it turns out if you take money out of your ATM on November 18th, the next November 18th, it will still be there. Um, but if you buy something from the grocery store on a November 18th, it will be gone the next day. Your your your your consumption will subtract it from the world.
生态视角与“捕食者”意识
Jumanna Khatib: 在那些觉得无聊的时刻,对我来说非常有力的反击是,书中刚好有足够的“世界观设定”来保持趣味性。总有一个新的政治或生态角度。了解了 SV Balla 之后我并不惊讶,对她来说钱是如此不重要,以至于每天都会恢复;但 Tara 和她丈夫在花园里种的一棵大葱(leak)却成了某种珍贵的资源。她有一种反复出现的想法,觉得自己像个“怪物”,她在吞噬她的世界,有一种丑恶感,觉得她身上出了问题。虽然 Tara 自己从未对她为何身处其中做过任何道德判断,但她在时间冻结的过程中确实感到了强烈的负罪感。这种伦理问题在后期的书中体现得更为明显。比如她会去镇上不同的商店购物,以免把货架买空;她谈到自己像是个捕食者,一个只会从世界上不断拿走、拿走、拿走资源,让世界变得贫瘠的人。读这些书时你不仅会思考细节,还会问自己:这背后有什么寓意?如果这是一部推想小说(speculative fiction),它试图反映我们现实世界的什么景象?
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: I think that that was a very helpful counter for me in those moments of boredom was that there was just enough world building or god god help me I'm saying world building but like like to sort of keep things interesting and there was there's always a new political or ecological angle like it doesn't shock me knowing what I know about Svala that like to her money is so unimportant that it replenishes every day but like a leak that Tara and her husband grew in their garden is sort of like this precious resource. And she has this refrain about how monstrous she feels, that she's a monster, that she's devouring her world, that there's this sort of like grotescery and like there's something wrong with her. But Tara herself never really makes any kind of moral judgments about why she is there. But she does feel a lot of culpability while she's frozen in time. And it's interesting because it is one of the it comes up I think it starts to surface you know more more emphatically in the later books but there is a sort of like these ethical questions that about you know this existence um and and she'll do things like she'll go and shop at different stores around around whatever town she's in so so she doesn't you know deplete things from the the shelves but she does talk about herself as sort of a a predator as a monster as someone who is just taking taking taking resources from the world and and and leaving it impoverished and that you know in in some ways one of the things I think that you can wonder about as you read these books not only about the sort of the details of the world that they depict but you know sort of ask yourself well what what kind of allegorical meaning is behind this if this is you know speculative fiction of a kind which it is what's what's the sort of the picture of of our own world that it's trying to reflect back on
Jumanna Khatib: 是的。我前几天在想数字“7”,因为每本书的侧重点确实略有不同。第一本你只是在想:“这到底是怎么回事?”第二本她开始在欧洲旅行,试图给自己一种季节感。我在想,天呐,我是不是得去重读一遍**《创世记》**?Balla 是不是在玩那一套?每一卷都在构建她宇宙的一个不同层面?我不知道。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: Yeah. I mean, I had this thought a couple days ago where I I was thinking about the the number seven about this and and thinking because each book really does have a diff a slightly different focus, right? You know, book one, you're sort of just like, what the hell is going on here? Book two, she's she's traveling around Europe trying to give herself a sense of seasons. And I was like, oh god, am I going to have to reread Genesis? Like, is that what Soul Bala is up to? Is that like each book is sort of her designing a different layer of whatever universe she's building? I don't know.
与现代主义经典的对话
AO Scott: 关于这种“世界观设定”,我觉得任何读这本书的人都会开始建立自己的理论。显然 Tara 在书中也试图弄清楚发生了什么,为什么我会在这里?读这四本书的经历让我走向了两个方向。第一,你会思考规则是什么,什么是被允许的,什么是不被允许的。第二,我会开始产生一种平时不常有的哲学思考:时间旅行或循环的故事到底意味着什么?《土拨鼠之日》被一些人严肃地视为最伟大的哲学电影之一。这对人性意味着什么?对于那个被迫一遍遍重复同一天的人意味着什么?你对自己有什么责任?你对世界有什么责任?规则如何改变?这说明了我们作为人类在类似情况下会如何行动?
很多写这本书的人把它与伟大的现代主义时间小说相提并论,比如 Proust 的**《追寻逝去的时光》和 James Joyce 的《尤利西斯》**。Proust 关乎时间和对时间的体验,但它关乎记忆,关乎 20世纪初欧洲现代文明冲刷下迅速流逝的过去感。而 Joyce 的《尤利西斯》关乎所有的历史,将历史的宏大尺度压缩在都柏林的六月的一天里。
而这本书关乎过去和未来的丧失。它关乎一种被困在永恒不变的当下、却仍不得不去经营生活的感觉。你必须弄清楚你生活的属人维度可能是什么。如果在 11 月 18 日度过并死掉你的一生,那会是什么样子?我忍不住会联想到现实世界的现状——一种某种程度上的停滞感,或者模糊不清的未来感,这正是这些书吸引力和共鸣的来源。
Original English
AO Scott: >> There's something about I mean you use the word worldb building to this whole thing that I think leads anyone who reads these books to to sort of start to develop their own theories. Obviously Tara in the book at some point is trying to figure out what happened, why am I here? And the the experience of reading these four books has has taken me in two directions. one, you start to think about these worldbuilding questions. What are the rules and what is allowed and what is not allowed? And then in a way that I don't normally do, I start to think philosophically, which is, you know, there's something about time travel, time loop stories, you know, Groundhog Day is cited, I think seriously by some is like one of the great philosophical films. Like what does this mean about humanity? like what does it mean about the person who has stuck to relive the same day over and over again? What is your responsibility to yourself? What is your responsibility to the world? And so my experience in reading these has has sort of been on those two tracks at the same time. What are the rules? How are the rules changing? And then what does this say about us as people and how we would act or not act in a similar situation? One thing that that's been interesting to me that I've been thinking about, a lot of people who've written about these books compare them to the great modernist time novels, you know, to to P's um In Search of Lost Time and to James Joyce's Ulisses, right, which is cuz P is about time and the experience of time, but it's about memory. It's about the sense of the past racing away in the onrush of modern civilization in Europe at the beginning of the 20th century. And Joyce's Ulyses is about all of history, all the sort of epic scale of history, all in one day condensed into one day in June in Dublin. And this is a book about kind of the the loss of the past and of the future. Um, so it's it's about a kind of a a sense of being stuck in this eternal unchanging present in which nonetheless you have to make your life. you have to figure out what what the sort of the human dimensions of your life might be. Um what would it be to live and die your whole life um in November 18th? And I think I mean I can't help but think about the state of the world of the actual world that we live in and a a certain sense maybe of stuckness or stasis or of of a sort of obscured or clouded future as being some of what these books are about and some of what gives them the kind of this very interesting strong appeal or resonance that we've been talking about
当循环不再孤独
Jumanna Khatib: 在前两本书中,我的大脑一直在想:能让 Tara 解脱的事情会是浪漫爱情。因为在其他类似的故事中,能把你从单调乏味中拯救出来或给系统带来震撼的通常是坠入爱河。Tara 在这些书中一直非常眷恋她的丈夫。在开始的时候,他们甚至有一段“第二次蜜月期”。他看起来是世界上最有耐心的人,当她说:“我不知道该怎么告诉你,但我一直在重复 11 月 18 日。”他每天早上都要听一遍,而且居然就这么接受了。我想当你把一生都奉献给古籍买卖时,你确实会期待这种荒诞感。但令我真正震惊的是,当 Tara 遇到另一个同样处于循环中的人时,那种可能性的扩张感非常令人兴奋。我喜欢看那些小社会的形成。感觉就像古希腊,只是发生在 11 月 18 日。
另外,我想澄清一点,因为现在有很多 Balla 的铁杆粉丝在猜:“噢,11 月 18 日是 Proust 去世的日子。”但 Balla 在一次采访中说:“起初我想选六月,但那跟环境设定不太搭;然后我想过十月,最后决定选十一月。后来我才意识到那是 Proust 去世的日子。”所以这就像那些密码破译者试图寻找意义,而她只是说:“我随手选的,我也不知道。”
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> throughout the first two books. my brain was thinking for whatever reason, oh, the thing that will get Tara unstuck is a a romance, right? Like it's so interesting that the sort of the the natural, if you're me, the natural place to think like, okay, well, what is what's been the counter in in other stories like this? like what's been the thing to sort of lift you out of TDM or sort of like give you a shock to the system and it's falling in love and you know that Tara is still very devoted to her husband um throughout these books and and I think that kind of longing for him. It's funny in the beginning they have something of a honeymoon like a second honeymoon period you know where they're just like he seems like the most patient man on earth where she's like I don't know how to tell you this but I am reliving November 18th over and over and over and she has to tell him this every morning and he just kind of goes along with it. It's like I guess that's the kind of like absurdity you come to expect when you devote your life to like being an antique book dealer. But I think like I was genuinely shocked when Tara met somebody that was sort of on a similar loop to her and and and that felt like such an expansion of possibility and got so exciting and I loved watching like the little societies form. It felt like like ancient Greece but November 18th. Also, I just want to dispel cuz I think there are a lot of like Bala heads out there who are like, "Oh, like you know, it's it's the day Puce died November 18th." And um there's a really great interview that Bala did on the LRB podcast and she's like, "Well, first I was thinking June, but that wouldn't really work with the sort of like environmental thing." And so I just sort of and then I thought about October and then I just decided November. And then I realized that's when Puce died. So it's like all these people sort of like, you know, like cryptographers trying to make sense of this and she's just like, I just picked it. I don't know.
AO Scott: 这就像你在读《创世记》一样。我们对待这么多文学或艺术作品时,总是想读出“意图”,而事实往往只是“我偶然发现了这个”。11 月 18 日,这一天似乎不太热也不太冷。所以,你是说你不认为 Balla 是自觉地要把自己塑造成上帝?
Original English
AO Scott: >> Well, it's like it's like you in Genesis. It's like, you know, trying to read as we do with so many works of literature or or pieces of art, intentionality into things that often are just like, I stumbled upon this. I don't know. The character led me here. This was the day that seemed not too hot, not too cold. November 18th. So, you're saying that you don't think that Bala consciously set out to make herself a god?
Jumanna Khatib: 每一位作者都是他们所创造的宇宙的上帝。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> Uh, every author is a god uh of the universe that they create.
时间循环中的生活真相
Gilbert Cruz: 接下来,我们要聊聊被困在循环中的惊人悖论。Jumanna,我想再聊聊 Tara。你提到你以为会有浪漫戏份,而我被大众文化毒害的大脑则在想:她在书里会做什么来增加“戏剧冲突”?她会去抢银行吗?会跳下悬崖吗?会像其他循环故事那样有很多滑稽的死亡场景,然后再次醒来吗?但这位作者完全对此不感兴趣。这很好地引向了 Tara 究竟是谁:她并不从任何事情中获得乐趣,除了像松鼠一样收集笔记,她有一种对“留存之物”的执着。我完全理解这一点,当你突然生活在一个有些东西能留存、有些东西会消失的宇宙里时,这种执着很正常。
书中有一个非常悲喜剧的场景:她去父母家过圣诞节。他们买了火鸡、圣诞布丁、抱子甘蓝和烤土豆。他们的传统是第二天吃剩饭。但 Tara 不相信冰箱里的东西能留存,所以她把所有东西都塞进床底下的冷藏袋里,这样第二天他们至少还能吃到。这很天才。她在某些方面忠于传统,但她确实不享受食物,甚至在描述她与那个社会中其他人的关系时,你也感觉不到她从人类连接中获得了乐趣。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: Coming up, the surprising paradox about being stuck in a time loop. Shiman, I'd love to talk a little bit more about Tara because you um and I felt the same way but in a different direction when you talk about well I thought she there would be a romance and that would be a thing that would >> you know my and this is my you know pop culture poisoned brain you know I'm like what what is what are the things that she is going to do in this book that give it plot like more of a plot in some way. Is she going to rob a bank? Is she going to fall off a cliff? Is this going to be, you know, is this going to be like other sort of time loop stories that we've experienced where there's a lot of sort of comical and and stereo comical death scenes and then she wakes up again and she's still alive. But this author is just not interested in that at all. And you know that's a like okay that's a great segue into like who Tara really is because Tara really doesn't take pleasure in anything except like kind of squirreling away notes and she has this sort of fixation on things you know things that stay with her and I totally understand that when especially you're sort of all of a sudden living in a universe where you don't quite understand why some things stay with you daytoday and some things disappear. Like there is actually a pretty comic tragic comic we can say scene where she goes to her parents' house and they have Christmas. So they go and like buy a turkey and Christmas pudding and they do the Brussels sprouts and roast potatoes. And part of their Christmas tradition is to have leftovers the following day. And Tara doesn't think that uh she doesn't trust anything to stay in the fridge. So she shoves everything in like a refrigerated bag under her bed so that they can at least have it's like I mean that's that's kind of brilliant, you know? So she's loyal to tradition in some ways, but like she really doesn't take pleasure in food or even when she talks about her relationships with the others in her society, I guess like you don't necessarily feel the pleasure that she gets in human connection.
AO Scott: 这也是最让我印象深刻的一点。我读了四卷英文译本,非常期待读剩下的三卷。除了偶尔的闪现,书中确实缺乏对世界的愉悦投入。比如有一次她去西班牙或意大利寻找温暖的天气,她说:“有很多天,我跳了舞……”但这种描述在一两句话中就过去了。作为一个非常正常的人,我会想:如果我被困住了,我会努力让每一天都享受到极致。
Original English
AO Scott: >> This is one of the things and Tony I want to hear what you say about this. has stood out to me the most about these books. And again, I've read the four volumes that have been translated into English and look forward to reading the other three, but there is I don't know if it's just the way I would feel if I was stuck in time for years and years and years, but there is a lack of pleasurable engagement with the world other than in these little flashes. Like there's one at one point she goes to Spain or Italy or somewhere where she's looking for warm weather and she says there were many days and I danced and you know and and it just passes >> with ice in them. >> Yeah. It passes in one or two sentences and and and I as an obviously very normal person am thinking I would try to maximize my pleasure every single day.
Gilbert Cruz: 确实。在第一卷里她和丈夫偶尔也会亲热,但写得并不香艳。你会想,她是变得如此,还是本来就这样?这种“时间的被困感”是她原本就存在的疏离感的一种症状吗?这本书是在投射一个可能的文明,还是在镜像反映某种已经存在的文明——比如西方国家受过教育的中产阶级,他们或许已经过着这样的生活?
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: It's true when when you know she does occasionally she and her husband do have sex in volume one but it's not like it's not particularly steamy or or even described very much but and and you sort of wonder well was she like this before she got stuck in in November 18 like which is cause and which is effect you know is this is this time stuckness a sort of a a symptom of or an effect of some alienation from experience that was there already that kind of prepared prepared her for it. Like is this is this book projecting a kind of a possible world or a possible civilization or is it actually mirroring an aspect of the of the civilization that's already here um say among the educated middle classes of western countries who kind of maybe already live like this
Jumanna Khatib: 有一件事让我很震惊:我发现她在陷入时间循环时居然那么年轻。我一直以为她 60 多岁,也许是因为在 20 多岁时做古籍买卖的人并不多。但得知她出事时才 20 多岁时,我惊呆了。我一直觉得她的年龄和我差不多。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> one thing see okay I was shocked to find out how old she was when she stumbled through time cuz I guess I was imagining ing her in her 60s. And I don't know, maybe it was because who in their 20s is an antiquarian book dealer, but I was shocked to learn that she was in her her mid20s when this happened. >> Yeah. >> I I saw her as being uh close to my age for some reason. >> So 75. Yeah.
Gilbert Cruz: Tony,你觉得这种结构给角色和读者带来了什么影响?
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> Tony, what do you think this structure allows for both characters to experience and also us as readers to experience? What is the effect that living the same day over and over again lands on Tara and on us?
AO Scott: 对 Tara 来说,这是一种出人意料的自由感。虽然我们说他们被困住了,但也可以说他们是自由的。他们从我们其他人无法选择的线性时间进程中解放了出来。他们可以用尽可能多的不同方式来度过同一天。这种体验也开启了哲学思辨的空间。Tara 天生倾向于沉思,而这种经历邀请你从各种不同的角度去观察:同样的事情在发生,但因为你每天都在变,所以世界显现出的细微差别也不同。对读者来说,这让阅读变得有趣且引人入胜,即使是在乏味的时候。书中有些段落感觉像是在轮子上打转,不断重复,没有任何新意,但我从未感到不耐烦。我只是感受那种节奏,在这一天的范围内,可以发生这么多事情。每当我产生一个问题时,几页之后,作者就会回答、调侃或承认它。你作为一个读者,并没有被情节的线性运动驱动,而是在一个巨大的空间里漫游,走进这座怪异巨宅的不同房间,这是一种非常愉快且治愈的阅读体验。
Original English
AO Scott: >> For Tara, it is a sense of a surprising sense of freedom in a I mean, we've talked about it as, you know, these people being stuck in time, which is in one sense true, but it's also maybe true that they're free. They're sort of liberated in time. That's the sort of the linear progression of days that the rest of us are subject to and have no choice about. They can have the same day um as many different ways as they they want to do it. And and I think it also opens up a space I think you were getting to this a little earlier Gilbert of sort of philosophical speculation even though Tara is certainly temperamentally inclined to sort of thinking and musing and ruminating something about this experience invites that cuz you're sort of going over and you're looking at it from all these different angles and the sort of the same thing is happening but is happening because you're different each day even if the world is not. you sort of >> see all these kind of nuances and and inflections and that that I think for the reader makes it >> interesting and absorbing even when even when it's tedious you know even when you're sort of like there are passages in the book where you know it sort of does feel caught in a wheel and is is repeating and nothing new has happened but I never felt kind of you know itchy or or bored or impatient with it. I just sort of felt like, okay, this is this rhythm and within the sort of the confines of this day, um, so much can happen and you start to have so many questions about it, you know, um, about about the rules and procedures. And I started to feel like every time I would come up with a question all by myself, some pages later, >> Molly would answer it or would or would tease it or would acknowledge it. So there's just a lot of room in these books. Um, and you feel yourself as a reader or I felt as as a reader oddly sort of free in them that I was I was not so much compelled by the the linear movement of a plot as just sort of roaming around in this big space and going into different rooms in this kind of weird giant house, which was a very a very pleasant and very soothing reading experience. H
时间的“体积”与社会的形成
Jumanna Khatib: 抱歉,我在查一段话。Balla 在接受文学杂志《The Drift》采访时谈到了书名《体积计算》。她说 1989 年她在巴黎开始写这本书,朋友看到一叠稿纸,标题写着《体积计算》,朋友说:“你必须换掉那个标题,那太糟糕了。”但她简短地解释道:“时间循环创造了一个空间或房间,而不是通常将时间视为线、河流或圆圈的观点。”她越是一次次重复这一天,她所生活的时间的“体积”就长得越大,直到最后她可能永远无法计算清楚,但它已经变得非常巨大。
我还对循环者之间的关系感到震惊。有一个人很感激这段停顿,因为这让他有时间陪伴患有帕金森病的父亲,而父亲的病情在这段时期似乎没有恶化。这就像给一种退行性疾病按下了暂停键。但同时,另一个循环者却与他的孩子隔着一整个大洋。这些是真正令人心碎的哲学问题。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> uh sorry I'm looking up a quote here. Yes. Okay. You know there's a an interview that Bala gave to the literary magazine the drift where she was talking about the title of the book on the calculation of volume. She says you know in 1989 I had started this book. I was in Paris. A friend saw a pile of papers. The title was on the top on the calculation of volume and he said you have to chase that title. That is a terrible title. Um but she she very briefly talks about quote the time loop creates more of a space or a room than the usual view of time as a line or a river or even as a circle. It's sort of this the more she lives this day over and over again the bigger the volume of her time that she is living sort of grows and grows and grows uh until I maybe she'll never be able to calculate it in the end but it's quite big. I was also really struck by the relationships between um there's one time looper who is kind of grateful for this pause because it allows him to have time with his father who has Parkinson's and so and his father's disease actually doesn't seem to be progressing in this period. So, um, it's almost like putting a pause on a degenerative disease, but at the same time, uh, there's another looper who is an entire ocean away from his kid. And, and those are really like the the most like wrenching, I think, philosophical questions.
AO Scott: 我也觉得那是很凄美的一部分。有趣的是,第四卷中提到,在 11 月 18 日的世界里似乎没有多少孩子。
Original English
AO Scott: >> I I found that a a very poignant part as well. It's interesting too that and this is remarked on in volume 4 is that there are there don't seem to be many children in the November 18th world.
Gilbert Cruz: 为什么到第四卷结束时,他们还没发现任何孩子?为什么他们似乎都处于相同的社会经济背景和种族群体?到第四卷结束,所有人的相似性确实是个有趣的问题。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> I think it's interesting to try to think of Tony as you note. Why are there no children that they have found at by the end of book four? Why why are they all sort of seemingly in the same sort of socioeconomic sort of racial cohort? Like there there is something interesting about the similarities between by the end of book four all of the people.
AO Scott: 是的,这在第四卷中得到了发展,因为它将这种体验置于集体或社交层面。现在有一群这样的人,多得数不清。第三卷结束时好像只有四个,突然间变成了九个,然后越来越多。他们开家庭会议,甚至开了一个“11 月 18 日大会”。这引出了一些滑稽的物流问题:你怎么为一个就是“今天”的大会去租礼堂?
这就像 Tara 旅行时的那个细节:她到达一个新城市,去酒店要求一个昨晚没住过人的房间。这是一个很好的预防措施,但也极其荒诞。显然欧洲所有酒店的人都觉得:“哦,行,没问题,我们可以安排。”
Original English
AO Scott: >> Yeah. And and and that that I think is is one of the really interesting things that develops in in in in the fourth volume because it it does sort of resituate this whole experience on a kind of a collective or social level, you know. So it's it's it's now there's there's a there are a lot of them. We sort of lose count, you know. Um there are at at the end of book three I think there are four and then all of a sudden there are nine and then more and more more um and they have these house meetings and then they they kind of have a convention um of of of all November 18th and they it's I mean and it's one of the comical sort of logistic things about like how do you how do you rent a a hall for a convention for a convention that's today >> but but not the today today you know um it's it's like the thing where whenever ever Tara travels, she arrives in a in a in a new city and goes to a hotel and asks for a room that hasn't been occupied the night before. Um, which is a great precaution, but also just absurd. And apparently all the people at all the hotels in Europe are like, "Oh, yeah, okay. We can we can do that."
Jumanna Khatib: 我不敢想象我要花多久才能想到这一点。我得在多少陌生人身边醒来啊。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> I I also shudder to think how long it would have taken me to figure that out. Like how many strangers I would have woken up next to. >> You would you would wake up next to >> next to in the hotel room. I mean, we just sort of think, "God, what? This is just awful.
与《土拨鼠之日》的区别
Gilbert Cruz: Tony,在结束谈话前我想问你,这些书在很多方面超出了类型预期。虽然人们常用《土拨鼠之日》来安利它,但作为一名做了近四分之一个世纪的影评人,这种定性让你产生了什么想法?它们有什么不同?
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> Yes. Tony, can I ask you um as as we near the end of this conversation, you know, in terms of generic expectations and and these books fall outside of genre in so many ways, >> you know, the the framing for this both in the way that it is being sold and the way I've described it to people and the way that people talk to Bala when they interview her is is uh Groundhog Day, the film >> starring Bill Murray and Andy McDow from 1993. When you say a time loop, you can also say it's a it's a real Groundhog Day type situation. Um, and I'm wondering as someone who was a film critic for almost uh a quarter century, you know, what what that framing sort of led you to to think as you entered these books and how you think other people navigate between those two. How are they different?
AO Scott: 《土拨鼠之日》有浪漫喜剧的结构,它关乎“做正确的事”。当 Bill Murray 的角色配得上 Andy MacDowell 角色的爱时,他就会获得自由。这就是哲学家 Stanley Cavell 所说的“道德完善论”(moral perfectionism)。那是电影的情节:关于修正自己,理解自己。那是一个好莱坞故事,一个个人故事,只发生在他身上,也只关乎他。
而这部作品是别的东西。它的重演似乎并没有给人们强加任何目的、逻辑或责任。我觉得它更多是关于一种普遍的人类境遇。它始于个人故事,Tara 是叙述者,但这不是她个人的故事,也不关乎她是谁——我们到现在其实还是不真正了解她。它是关于生活在时间中意味着什么,那是好事还是坏事?当你的前瞻性时间感被改变或夺走时,那会是什么感觉?
Original English
AO Scott: I mean, Groundhog Day has this sort of romantic comedy structure um as Jumanna as you were saying and it's about it turns out to be about getting it right like when the Bill Murray character is worthy of the love of the Andy McDow character, he will be freed, you know. So, it's it's what the philosopher and film writer Stanley Cavell called moral perfectionism. That's the plot of that movie. Um, it's about getting yourself right, um, and understanding yourself. And it's a Hollywood story, so it's an individual story. It's only happening to him. Um, and it only matters that it's happening to him. >> This is something else. Um, because the redoing it doesn't seem to impose any kind of purpose or logic or responsibility on people. I don't think it's it's it's it's much more it turns out to be I think much more about what this would be as a general human condition. So it starts out as an individual story but it and Tara is our narrator and and I assume will stay our narrator but it isn't really her story and it's not really about who she is in some ways. We never know we still don't know really who she is. Um, but it's about what it is to live in time and whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing. What it would feel like to to have your whole sense of your orientation forward in time changed or or or taken away.
Gilbert Cruz: 我觉得这是件好事。目前这四本书中我最喜欢的部分是,Henry 意识到他有时间处理完所有的电子邮件了。这看起来像是我会做的事。太棒了。
我很享受和你们两位共度的这段时间。Tony Scott,非常感谢你参加节目。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> I think it would be a great thing. My favorite part so far in these four books is when the character Henry on the first or second day realizes that he has time to catch up on his emails. That seems like something I would do. I thought it was great. I have enjoyed living in this time with the two of you. Tony Scott, thank you so much for joining the pod. >> Such a pleasure. I'm I'm sorry that it has to come to an end.
翻译的艺术与新书推荐
Gilbert Cruz: 休息一下,Jumanna 将深入探讨文学翻译的世界,并推荐一些好书。Jumanna,《体积计算》前两卷由 Barbara Havlin 翻译,后两卷换成了 Sophia Hersy Smith 和 Jennifer Russell。我对两件事很好奇:作者和翻译是如何合作的?以及两个人共同翻译一本书这种现象,这听起来很难,但在我们读的这两卷中效果显然很好。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: After the break, Jima digs into the world of literary translation and she recommends some books for you to read next. Okay, Jumanna, these on the calculation of volume books uh started in their first two volumes uh with one translator, Barbara Havlin, and then in books three and four, a pair of translators take over, Sophia Hersy Smith and Jennifer Russell. And I'm I'm curious about two things. What is your understanding of how authors and translators work together? And then this phenomenon or or this situation where two people are working on translating one book that that seems quite difficult to me but it worked clearly in in in these two volumes that we read.
Jumanna Khatib: 是的,这确实行得通。比如 Sam Bett 和 David Boyd 从日语翻译成英语,他们就是一对了不起的搭档。他们翻译了 川上未映子(Mieko Kawakami)进入英语世界的第一批书,她现在在翻译界依然是个轰动人物。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> Yeah. And it it does work. I mean um I can think uh Sam Bett and David Boyd translate from Japanese into English. They're great. They're an amazing pair. They they were the ones who worked on the first books by Mo Kawakami to come into English. And she's obviously still something of a sensation among
Gilbert Cruz: 她写些什么?
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> And what does she write?
Jumanna Khatib: 她是**《乳与卵》**(Breasts and Eggs)、《天堂》(Heaven)的作者。她最近出了一本黑色小说叫《黄色的姐妹》(Sisters in Yellow)。至于翻译和作者的合作,这真的因人而异。很多翻译处理的是已故作者的作品。我记得我曾采访过 Ann Goldstein,她是 Elena Ferrante 的译者。我问她:“你多久给她发一次邮件?”她说:“我直接给她发邮件大概只有五次,绝大多数时候我有疑问都会通过她的编辑。”
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> Um she's the author of Breasts and Eggs, Heaven. She has a new sort of noir out called Sisters in Yellow. They did not work on that book and I did feel that frankly. But to your earlier question about how translators and authors work together, I think it I mean I think it really depends. So first, a lot of translators have worked on books or work by dead people. So that's kind of a non-starter. >> Um I remember I was profiling an Goldsten who is Elellanena Ferrante's translator. And I asked her, I was like, "How often do you like email her or do you ever email her directly?" And she's like, "I've emailed her directly maybe five times, but anytime I have a query, most of the time I go through her editor." And so that's my understanding of of how it works most of the time.
Gilbert Cruz: 你有最喜欢的翻译家吗?
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> This is a a very specific question for you, but I feel like you might actually have an answer. You know, there are people that have like favorite audiobook narrators. >> Yeah. Is it? Do you have a favorite translator?
Jumanna Khatib: 噢,有的。他的名字叫 Frank Wynne。他是一个爱尔兰奇才,一个天才。他从西班牙语和法语翻译。我第一次接触他是在读 Virginie Despentes 的时候,她是一个后朋克风格的法国作家。无论是纪实还是小说,她的文字都极其具有“语感”(voice-driven)。她有一本女性主义宣言叫《金刚理论》,Frank 是她声音的绝佳传导者。她还有一套三部曲叫《弗农·苏布特克斯》,讲的是一个失业的唱片商在巴黎右岸四处游荡的故事,Frank 能够自如切换各种声音,太神奇了。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> Oh, I do. Can I tell you about him? I love him so much. Okay. His name is Frank Wyn. >> He W Y N E. >> He is an Irish I think savant, right? He's just a genius. He translates from Spanish and French. And I first encountered him when I was reading um Viljenei de Pont who's a sort of like postpunk French writer and all of her writing whether it's her non-fiction or her novels are extremely voiced driven. She has this sort of like feminist manifesto called King Kong Theory. and he he really was an incredible conduit for her voice. And she has this trilogy of books that I think everybody should read. Velon Subutex, it's about a sort of unemployed record dealer just bouncing around the right bank of Paris, meeting a bunch of very colorful characters and and just the way that he's able to juggle all these voices is amazing. And like everything is so alive. They feel very expansive, those books.
Gilbert Cruz: 在这个浩瀚的翻译宇宙中,你还有什么书推荐给咱们的听众?
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: Okay, Jumanna, what other books in translation would you recommend >> from this vast wild insourcing universe? >> So big.
Jumanna Khatib: 作为《体积计算》的同类推荐,我建议读读**《时间庇护所》**(Time Shelter)。作者是保加利亚作家 Georgi Gospodinov,由 Angela Rodell 翻译。这本书获得了 2023 年布克国际奖。它讲的是苏黎世的一家阿尔茨海默病诊所,设施的每一层都重建了一个不同的年代,让病人的记忆与现实匹配。
另一本是 津岛佑子(Yuko Tsushima)的**《光之领地》**(Territory of Light),由 Geraldine Harkort 翻译。这是我过去 18 个月读过的最不可思议的书之一。讲的是一位单身母亲带着四岁的女儿在东京开始新生活的故事。它非常优雅、幽默且动人。
再来一本,意大利经典**《约婚夫妇》**(The Betrothed),Alexandro Manzoni 著。这是意大利语统一时期的经典作品,既是爱情故事,也是政治寓言。我推荐 Michael F. Moore 的译本。
最后一本是 Jenny Erpenbeck 的**《凯罗斯》**(Kairos),作者是德国人,Michael Hoffman 翻译。这是一部非常细腻复杂的关于“年龄跨度”恋情的小说。
Original English
Jumanna Khatib: >> So as a specific comp for on the calculation of volume, I'm going to recommend time shelter. This is by a Bulgarian writer, Yorgi Gosporinov, and translated by Angela Rodell. Um, this one, the international booker in 2023. And this is about a clinic in Zurich that's set up for Alzheimer's patients where each floor of the facility recreates a different decade. And so wherever they kind of live in their head, they can they can have their physical reality match their memories. It's it's really good. >> Wow. Okay, that's a great idea. Another recent discovery for me was Yuko Tsushima. So the book that I love most by her is Territory of Light and this is translated by Geraldine Hardort. Geraldine Harkort I think maybe only ever translated Yukotushima and I wish she had translated everything cuz like her I mean this is one of the most incredible books I've read in I would say at least the last 18 months. It's about a single mom and her four-year-old daughter getting their own apartment in Tokyo and just like rebuilding their life together after the implosion of her marriage. And it's so elegant and funny and surprising and and beautifully rendered into English. I love that book. Uh, another one. Okay. Classics are a blind spot for me. Like I really really need to go reread >> like classics and quotes. >> Class. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. What what is classics out of quotes? >> I don't know why I said that. >> Okay. Anyway, so like I need to go back and reread like Tanyv and all the you know Anna Corinina. But I did just finish an Italian classic that I really liked. Um it's called the betrothed in English. uh in Italian it's uh messi sposi by Alexandro Manzonei who is one of the first writers like around the time that Italy decided to unify its language and it's a classic love story. It's a parable. It's a political parable. It's a societal parable but it's also just a lovely translation um that's translated by Michael F. Moore, whose translations from Italian into English, I highly recommend. And then another one that I love. I love this book. This is Chyros by Jenny Urban, who's German. All of her books are great. Go, Went, Gone, etc. Um, so Chyros was translated by Michael Hoffman and is a very very nuanced and complex, I guess you could just call it an age gap novel, relationship, age gap novel. It's really good.
Gilbert Cruz: Jumanna,我诚恳地说,听你聊书总让我觉得自己变聪明了。我是 Gilbert Cruz,感谢收听。
Original English
Gilbert Cruz: >> Jima, I I say this with genuine uh sincerity. I always feel smarter after hearing you talk about books. >> Thank you. It was genuinely my pleasure. I could go for 20 more minutes. >> I think we're good. >> Okay. The book review is produced by Sarah Diamond and Amy Pearl. It's edited by Lissa Anderson and mixed this week by Katie McMurin. Original music by Dan Powell and Alicia. Special thanks to Dalia Hadad. We want to hear what you think about the show, so send us an email at the bookreview@nytimes.com. I'm Gilbert Cruz. Thanks for listening. 18-year-olds don't know Groundhog Day. What the What's happening? >> I've never seen it. >> You've never seen it? >> Should I watch it?
📌 文中提及的人物和组织
人物: SV Balla, Tara Selter
公司/组织: The New York Times
产品/模型: On the Calculation of Volume, Groundhog Day
媒体/书籍: Time Shelter, Territory of Light, The Betrothed, Kairos