关注度作为核心政治资源
Ezra Klein: 格雷厄姆·普拉特纳（Graham Platner），一年前在政治上还籍籍无名，是如何横空出世，在初选中如此彻底地占据主导地位，以至于缅因州的现任州长珍妮特·米尔斯（Janet Mills）退出了竞选——或者我应该说，暂停了她的竞选活动，甚至在普拉特纳受到更多丑闻冲击时也没有重新参选。现在，国家级的评论员、政治建制派，他们一直在寻找那个能定义这次竞选的故事、那个头条新闻、那个可以定义我的竞选活动的时刻。但是在如此努力想要理解我的过程中，他们没有明白，这根本不是关于我的。这是一场关于我们大家的运动。答案是，他拥有现在最重要的政治资源，而她却一点也没有抓住。这个资源就是“关注度”（attention）。现在这成了我节目中的一个永恒主题：你需要将关注度视为美国政治的一种独立基底。今年，关注度正以非常不同寻常的方式发挥作用：在密歇根州参议院的民主党初选中，阿卜杜勒·阿尔赛义德（Abdul El-Sayed）现在处于领先地位。
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How did Graham Platner, a political unknown a year ago, come from nowhere to so thoroughly dominate the primary that Janet Mills, the sitting governor of Maine, dropped out [music] or suspended her campaign, I should say, and didn't even come back in as Platner was rocked by even more scandals. Now, the national pundits, the political establishment, they keep looking for that one story, that one headline, that one moment in my life that they can define the campaign by. But in trying so hard to understand me, they failed to understand that this is not about me at all. This is a movement about us. The answer is that he had [music] the most important political resource right now and she was not able to grab any of it. That resource is attention. It's a constant theme now for me on the show that you need to see attention as its own substrate of American politics. And attention is working in really unusual ways this year in the Michigan Democratic primary for Senate where Abdul Alied is now in the lead.Abdul El-Sayed: 在场的各位谁相信“全民医保”？[欢呼声] 谁相信现在是时候废除 ICE（美国移民及海关执法局）了？[欢呼声]
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>> Who here believes in Medicare for all? [cheering] And who believes it's time to abolish ICE? [cheering]Abdul El-Sayed: 谁相信我们必须把金钱赶出政治，让钱回到你们的口袋里？[欢呼声]
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>> And who believes we got to get MONEY OUT OF POLITICS AND IN YOUR pocket [cheering]Ezra Klein: 在德克萨斯州，詹姆斯·特里科（James Talarico），几年前大家还没怎么听说过的一个人，现在成了民主党的参议院提名人。
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>> in Texas where James Terico, another person people hadn't really heard of a couple years ago, is now the Democratic nominee for Senate.James Talarico: 今天有一件事是显而易见的。我们要夺回德克萨斯州。[欢呼声]
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>> One thing is clear today. We're about to take back Texas. [cheering]Ezra Klein: 在洛杉矶，我们实际上看到了它在斯宾塞·普拉特（Spencer Pratt）竞选市长时失败了。
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in Los Angeles where we actually saw it fail in the mayoral candidacy of Spencer Pratt.News Anchor 1: 真人秀明星斯宾塞·普拉特（Spencer Pratt）竞选洛杉矶市长的叛乱式竞选活动已经正式走到尽头。
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>> Reality TV star Spencer Pratt's insurgenting campaign for LA mayor has officially run its course.Spencer Pratt: 这些腐败的骗子还真是互相照应，不是吗？
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>> These corrupt crooks really do look out for each other, don't they?News Anchor 2: 约翰·奥索夫（Jon Ossoff）发生了什么，以及人们对他所做的事情的兴趣为什么突然上升。
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>> What's happening with John Of and the sudden rise in interest in what he's doing.Speaker: 他是一个失败的总统，是国家的耻辱。
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>> He's a failed president and a national disgrace.Ezra Klein: 我认为，这一切都为目前关注度在美国政治中的运作方式提供了很多教训。为了帮我解开这些谜团，我想请来我最喜欢探讨这个特定话题的人，我的朋友 Chris Hayes。
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>> All of it has a lot of lessons, I think, for how attention is working right now in American politics. To help me unpack them, I want to have on my favorite person to talk about this particular topic with, my friend Chris Hayes.Chris Hayes: 晚上好，来自纽约的问候。我是 Chris Hayes，是《All In with Chris Hayes》的主持人，也是《警笛声：关注度如何成为世界上最濒危的资源》（The Siren's Call: How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource）这本关于现代关注度伟大著作的作者。一如既往，如果你需要我们的关注，这是我的电子邮件。Ezra Klein show at NYTimes.com。
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>> Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes, host of AllIn with [music] Chris Hayes and author of the great book on attention in the modern moment, The Sirens [music] Call: How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource. As always, my email if you need our attention. Ezra Klein show at [music] NY Times.com. [music]Ezra Klein: Chris Hayes，欢迎回到节目。
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Chris Hayes, welcome back to the show.Chris Hayes: 很高兴再次回来。
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>> Always great to be back."选角"式招募：非传统候选人的出现
Ezra Klein: 所以，我想请你来做我们定期的检查之一，看看关注度在美国政治中是如何运作的。我想从《华尔街日报》的一段采访开始，采访对象是招募格雷厄姆·普拉特纳（Graham Platner）的那些人。
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>> So, I want to have you here for one of our every so often check-ins on how attention is working in American politics. And I wanted to start with a Wall Street Journal interview uh that was with the people who recruited Graham Platner.Interviewer: 你们是如何找到格雷厄姆·普拉特纳的？
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>> How did you find Graham Platner?Recruiter: 嗯，所以，我的意思是，我们筛选了成千上万的潜在人选。我们，你知道，通过多种手段，评估了大量的人。然后，你知道，Liam 调出了这个经营牡蛎养殖场的家伙的视频。
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>> Well, so I mean we went through thousands and thousands of prospects. Um we, you know, through a number of means, you know, assessed just a huge amount of people. Then, you know, Liam pulled up this video of this guy with an oyster farm.Graham Platner: 我叫格雷厄姆·普拉特纳，住在缅因州的沙利文，是法国人湾牡蛎公司（Frenchman Bay Oyster Company）的老板。
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>> My name is Graham Platner and I live in Sullivan, Maine, the owner of Frenchman Bay Oyster Company.Recruiter: 然后她调出了他的联邦选举委员会（FEC）记录，看到了，你知道，他曾捐给伯尼·桑德斯（Bernie Sanders）的钱，以及，你知道，其他一些人。那些信息足以让我们知道，我们找到了我们可能见过的最好的潜在人选。
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>> And then she pulled up his FC history and saw, you know, the money he had given to Bernie Sanders and, you know, some other people. Um, and that was enough information to know that we had the best prospect that we'd maybe ever seen.Ezra Klein: 好的，我想充实一下这个故事，因为有很多人跟我讲过这件事。这个组织，他们当时在想，谁能在缅因州竞选，对吧？比如龙虾养殖户，牡蛎养殖户，某种渔民。所以当他说我们看过了成千上万的人，就像计算机通过职业和其他形式的记录进行搜索一样，对吧？就像是：哪些龙虾养殖户曾给民粹主义候选人捐过款？也就是说，我们通常认为候选人被招募是因为他们在社区中很重要。他们是律师，他们经营医院，或者是类似的人。很多人从小就想竞选公职。但格雷厄姆·普拉特纳是被“选角”选上的，对吧？就像好莱坞寻找某人来扮演一个角色。
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>> Okay, I want to flesh this out because I've been told this story by multiple people. this group like they were like who could run in Maine, >> right? >> Like lobster farmer, oyster farmer, some kind of fisherman. >> And so when he says we looked at thousands of people like the computer looked through occupational and other forms of records, >> right? >> It was like which lobster farmers like who has donated to a populist candidate? which is to say that, you know, we normally think of candidates as being, you know, recruited because they're important in their communities. They're a lawyer, they run a hospital, something like that. A lot of people grow up wanting to run for office. But Graham Platner was cast, right? It was like like Hollywood looking for somebody to fill a role.Chris Hayes: 这里面有着悠久的历史。我的意思是，民主党在 Tom Keane 的选区里派出了一个候选人，那人就像是个直升机飞行员。米奇·谢里尔（Mikie Sherrill）曾是个直升机飞行员。他们喜欢，你知道，那是一个履历（bio）。那是一个……
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>> There's a long history there. I mean, the Democrats are running someone in a in in Tom Keane's district who's a like helicopter pilot. Mikey Cheryl was a helicopter pilot. They like, you know, that's that that's a bio. That'sEzra Klein: 阿比盖尔·斯潘伯格（Abigail Spanberger），前中央情报局（CIA）特工。
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>> Abigail Spanberger, a former CIA.Chris Hayes: 完全正确。所以，它那一部分是一个有趣的变体，它就像是一个草根的、左倾的民粹主义团体在做 DCCC（民主党国会竞选委员会）或 DSCC 才会做的事情。
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>> Exactly. So, like that part of it is an interesting version of a sort of grassroots lefty populist group doing what the DRIP will do or the DSC.Ezra Klein: 但是这件事之所以成功，是因为魅力（charisma）。从某种层面上说，魅力就像是——我确实认为政治中正在发生一种兜兜转转又回到原点的事情，那就是：魅力对政治当然很重要。但是，特别是在规模层面上，曾经有一段时期，政治竞选公式真的没有把魅力考虑在内。是的，那时的公式就是：履历、社会资本、人脉关系、筹款能力，所有这些东西。然后就像是，不管怎样，我们会为他们剪辑一些广告。我们会给他们组建一个好团队，他们就会没事的。我认为魅力现在变得重要得多，因为关注度变得更重要了，而魅力就是获取并保持关注度的天赋。所以我，我想停留在你刚才关于 DCCC 所说的那一点上，因为我认为我们都很了解他们招募人才的方式。他们招募人才的一个残酷现实是，他们非常强调你能筹集到多少钱。第一，他们会强迫你每天在电话上坐 6 个小时。
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>> But the reason this worked was because of the charisma. And charisma at one level it's like I do think there's a kind of full circle thing happening in politics which is like of course charisma is important to politics. But [snorts] I think particularly at the level of scale, there was a period where the formula really didn't take into account charisma. Yes, >> it was like bio, social capital, connections, ability to raise money, all that stuff. And then like whatever, we'll cut some ads for them. We'll get them a good team and they'll be fine. I think charisma matters much more now because attention matters more and charisma is the talent for grabbing and holding attention. So I I want to hold on what you just said about the DC because I think we both know a fair amount about the way they recruit. >> And one of the grim realities of how they recruit is they very heavily emphasize how much money you can raise. >> One, they will force you to sit on the phone 6 hours a day.Chris Hayes: 是的。
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>> Yep.Ezra Klein: 一天 6 个小时。而且如果你不做，他们还会惩罚你，对吧？你想进入诸如他们的“红转蓝”（Red to Blue）名单之类的。所以我认识一些候选人，他们被胁迫每天在电话上花好几个小时来筹款。
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>> 6 hours a day. And and they will punish you if you don't, right? You want to be on things like their red toblue lists. And so I know candidates who are just browbeaten into being on the phone raising money for hours and hours and hours a day.Chris Hayes: 而且 DCCC——也就是民主党国会竞选委员会——这样做并不是因为他们是愤世嫉俗者，或者对钱有狂热崇拜。
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>> And the DC the which is the sort of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee isn't doing that because they're cynics or they have a fetish for it.Ezra Klein: 他们确实喜欢钱。你需要钱。但钱能买到的东西，主要就是关注度。我的意思是，它也买到了实地拉票、组织工作和其他东西，但它买到了关注度。它买到了电视广告。所以当这个组织“选角”选定普拉特纳时，他不是那种你去找他会想“你能筹到钱去买关注度吗”的人。他是那种你去找他会想“你能否释放魅力来赢得关注度？”的人。
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>> They love money. You you need money. But the thing money is buying >> uh largely is attention. I mean it also buys field and organizing and other things but it buys attention. It buys TV. And so what what this group is doing when they they cast Platner, he's not a person who you go to and think, can you raise the money to buy attention. >> He's a person you go to and think, can you like unleash the charisma to earn attention?Chris Hayes: 是的。完全正确。
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>> Yes. Exactly.Ezra Klein: 这反过来会带来金钱。
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>> Which then will bring in money.Chris Hayes: 是的。即使它没有带来金钱，也带来了关注度。关键就在这里，我认为你现在要进行一场成功的竞选，就必须拥有一套关于关注度的理论，而在那个竞选公式像广播电视广告全盛时期那样死板的年代（对吧？比如，尽可能多地筹款，用大量的广播电视广告轰炸电波，这就是秘诀，一场竞选的 90% 就是广播电视广告），由于广播电视广告的影响力下降，对吧？你必须有一套替代理论，来解释你将如何接触到民众。在某些地方，比如在北卡罗来纳州的罗伊·库珀（Roy Cooper），全州所有人都知道罗伊·库珀是谁，对吧？他没有同样的问题。这家伙应该已经在全州范围内当选过五次了，类似那样。所以，他不需要这么做。但如果你要参加另一场竞选，你就必须想出一套关于你要怎么做的理论。在这个例子中，那就是选角，然后就是去寻找一个真正拥有显著政治天赋和魅力的人。
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>> But even if it doesn't, attention. And this is the point is that you have to I think you have to have a theory of attention for a successful campaign right now in a way that when that formula was as dead set as it was in the kind of you know high point of broadcast TV ads right like raise as much money as possible hit the airways with a ton of broadcast TV and that's the that's the recipe that's 90% of a campaign as broadcast TV particularly and as broadcast TV ads decline in their salience, right? You have to have some alternate theory of how you're going to get to people. In some places, like in North Carolina with Roy Cooper, like everyone in the state knows who Roy Cooper is, >> right? He doesn't have the same problem. The guy's been elected statewide, I think, five times at this point, something like that. So, he doesn't have to do that. But if you're running another race, you do have to come up with some theory of how you're going to do it. In this case, it was casting and then it was finding a person who genuinely has real obvious raw political talent and charisma.Ezra Klein: 好的。但是我们在这里低估了普拉特纳的成就，因为他们在那场竞选中最终是在对抗一个罗伊·库珀式的人物。是的。就是在对抗珍妮特·米尔斯（Janet Mills）。是的。这并不是一个在一群无名小卒中进行的公开初选。这不是他们进入像内布拉斯加州那样的地方，在那里他们招募了丹·奥斯本（Dan Osborne），这个独立候选人在一个周期前竞选过，在这个周期又在参选。这是一个查克·舒默（Chuck Schumer）和民主党参议院竞选委员会心中已有候选人的情况，对吧？他们有一位缅因州的民主党州长，他们打算让这位民主党州长作为候选人去和米尔斯对决，以拿下那个席位。而后来发生的事情非常、非常快，普拉特纳有意地将米尔斯挤了出去。她就是——他们之间的魅力差距，以及他指挥关注度的能力，特别是他在网上的能力，进而转化成了所有其他形式的关注度，因为报纸在关注，有线电视新闻在关注。他上了你的节目。
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>> Okay. But we're underelling here the accomplishment of Platner because they are running in that race ultimately against a Roy Cooperlike figure. Yes. In Janet Mills. Yes. >> This is not a situation where there is an open primary of nobodies. It's not a situation where they're going into a place like Nebraska where they recruited Dan Osborne, the the independent who ran, you know, a cycle ago and is running again um this cycle. This is a situation where Chuck Schumer and the Democratic Senate campaign committee had a candidate in mind, right? They have a Democratic governor of Maine and they're going to run the Democratic governor of Maine against Mills to pick up that seat. And what happens just very very very quickly is that Platner squeezes Mills out intentionally. She just the charisma gap between them >> and the ability that he has to command attention >> particularly online but that then translates into all other forms of attention cuz like the newspapers follow it, the cable news follows it. He's on your show.Chris Hayes: 他也，他击败了一位现任州长，对吧？但他也——我的意思是，这又是事情的另一面——他在那个州通过实地拉票活动击败了她，就像，这不仅仅是在线上的部分。我的意思是，这同样也是关注度的一部分。缅因州是一个小州，对吧？我的意思是，缅因州是一个这样的州，你知道，现在的苏珊·柯林斯（Susan Collins）认识，真的是认识比例惊人高的各位市长，对吧？[笑声] 当你像她这样成为一个制度性人物时，事情就是这样运作的。它是一个你可以在零售政治（retail politics，挨家挨户或面对面拉票）上取得突破的州，而这在加州的州长竞选中是做不到的。对。所以部分原因也是他就是比她更努力工作。但我认为他比她年轻得多。我的意思是，米尔斯是一个 78 岁的候选人。
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>> He also >> he knocks out a sitting governor, right? But he also I mean this is the other part of it is he out campaigns her in that state on the ground like it's not just the online part of it. I mean and again this is part of attention too. Maine is a small state right? I mean Maine is a state where you know Susan Collins >> at this point knows like literally knows a shockingly high percentage of mayors right [laughter] this is just the way it works when you're an institution like her. It's the kind of state where you can make inroads in retail politics in a way that you can't the California governor's race. Right. So part of it too is that he just outworks her. But I think that much younger than she is. I mean Mills is a 78year-old candidate.风险偏好与制度的失效
Ezra Klein: 是的。而且我认为关注度和风险偏好之间实际上存在着一种有趣的联系，因为我认为这两者息息相关。我认为过去指导民主党政治中关于关注度的很多做法，也与风险厌恶（risk aversion）有关。不要招惹负面新闻。如果你要在没新闻和负面新闻之间做选择，那就尽量减少负面影响。懂了吗？其他人本可以参加那场初选。他们知道舒默正试图招募米尔斯。她实际上是在普拉特纳正式宣布之后才加入的。缅因州几乎所有知名政客都去参加了州长竞选，对吧？因为那个职位将会空缺出来。它不会有一个现任者，而你也不必去挑战像苏珊·柯林斯这样的选举巨头。那是一个风险较低的选择。普拉特纳下了一个高风险的赌注，我确实认为风险偏好和关注度之间存在着一种关系，这在很大程度上是民主党政治的一部分，那就是：这里存在着一种制度性的低风险偏好。
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>> Yes. And I think there's actually an interesting relation here between attention and risk appetite because I think the two are so related. I think a lot of the things that have guided Democratic politics around attention have also related to risk aversion. Don't get negative press. If you're choosing between no press and negative press, minimize downsides. Okay? Other people could have run that primary. They knew that Schumer was trying to recruit Mills. She actually got in after Platner officially. Almost all of the bigname politicians in the state of Maine went for the governor's race, >> right, which was going to be vacated. it wasn't going to have a sitting incumbent and you weren't going to take on the electoral colossus of Susan Collins. That's a lower risk choice. >> Platner made a high-risisk bet and I do think there's a relationship between risk appetite and attention that's very much part of Democratic politics which is there is a kind of institutional lowrisk appetite.Chris Hayes: 我想谈谈那里的“制度”（institution）这个词。所以，民主党，以及特朗普之前的共和党也是这样。他们选择的是那些在制度内取得成功的人。我的意思是，如果你想想巴拉克·奥巴马（Barack Obama）之后的那些候选人，对吧？希拉里·克林顿（Hillary Clinton），乔·拜登（Joe Biden），嗯，以一种不同的方式来看，还有卡马拉·哈里斯（Kamala Harris），对吧？他们都是这样的人，他们并不是那种选举战场上的巨头，对吧？克林顿输给了巴拉克·奥巴马，但当时她在民主党内备受爱戴。乔·拜登是巴拉克·奥巴马的副总统。事情大概就是这样。我认为性格类型之间存在着一种负相关关系。
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>> I want to pick up on the word institution there. So Democratic Party, the Republican party pre-Trump is like this too. They choose people who succeed in institutions. So I mean if you think about the the candidates after Barack Obama, right? Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, um in a different way, Kla Harris, right? They're all people they they were not electoral juggernauts, right? Clinton lost to Barack Obama, >> but she was beloved within the Democratic party at that time. Joe Biden was Barack Obama's vice president. And it kind of goes down like this. I think that there is an inverse relationship between the personality type.Ezra Klein: 是的。
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>> Yes.Chris Hayes: 在体制内取得成功的性格类型，和在关注度上取得成功的性格类型是截然相反的。
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>> That succeeds institutionally and the personality type that succeeds attentionally.Ezra Klein: 确实如此。我认为这与你谈论的风险有关。
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>> That's true. >> I think it is related to what you're talking about with risk.Chris Hayes: 是的。
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>> Yeah.Ezra Klein: 但我认为它在政党招募中已经产生了一个几乎是结构性的问题，因为正如你所指出的，政党寻找的所有这些信号，从根本上说都是体制能力的信号。是的。
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>> But I think it has created an almost structural problem in party recruiting >> because parties as you were noting they look for all these signals that are fundamentally signals of institutional capacity. Yeah.Chris Hayes: 社会资本，对吧？筹款能力。工作职位往往是在体制内逐步晋升得来的。我的意思是，普拉特纳是一个社会阶层向下流动的牡蛎养殖户，他的牡蛎农场并不怎么赚钱，而是把产品卖给他妈妈经营的高档餐厅。对。他不是那种，你不会看一眼就觉得“那家伙是缅因州最令人印象深刻的人”。对吧。
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>> Social capital, >> right? >> Ability to raise money. Uh jobs tend to have risen through the institutions. I mean, Platner is a downwardly mobile oyster farmer whose oyster farm doesn't really make money and sells to his mom's fancy restaurant. Right. He is not, you wouldn't just look at it and think that guy is the most impressive person in Maine. Right.Ezra Klein: 对。他不像海军飞行员米奇·谢里尔（Mikie Sherrill）那样，你知道吗？但在体制内取得成功的人，他们的性格往往缺乏棱角，而当前的关注度时代恰恰奖赏那些性格鲜明的人。所以我认为这是对的。我认为有几件事正在发生。一是我们应该讨论体制内的成功与资质证明（credentialing），这算是两码事，对吧？你知道，在民主党进步派的圈子里，如果某人上过耶鲁法学院，那意义重大。所以有资质证明的部分。有真正在体制内取得成功的部分。有与这些体制建立联系的部分。然后还有一种能在这些体制内取得成功的性格。在50年代和60年代——对吧，在一个不同的时代——你会使用的一个老词是“公司人”（company man），对吧？像一个“公司人”就是那种在组织环境中与他人相处融洽的人。嗯，不兴风作浪，不惹人生气。而且我认为，“公司人”的理念一直以来都是模板，而且几乎是必然的模板，对吧？我的意思是，如果你——就像你在这部分对话开头所说的，民主党是一个体制。普拉特纳能够传达出一种真诚感的一件事，就是他让人真切地感觉到，这个体制的内核是空洞的。你知道，人们谈论……
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>> Right. It's not like Mikey Cheryl as a Navy pilot, you know? But the people who succeed in institutions are often do not have personalities that are spiky in the way the attentional moment currently rewards. So I think that's true. I think there's a few things going on. One is we should talk about success in institutions and credentiing which are sort of two different things, right? You know it means a lot in the world of democratic progressive politics if someone went to Yale law. So there's the credential part of it. There's actual success in institutions. There's relationships to those institutions. And then there's a kind of personalities that succeed in those institutions. The old term that you would use in the 50s and 60s, right, in a different era was like a company man, right? And like a company man is someone that gets along well with others in an organizational setting. Um doesn't make waves, doesn't upset people. And I think the idea of a company man is kind of what has been the template again almost necessarily, right? I mean, if you like as you said at the beginning of this part of the conversation, the Democratic Party is an institution. One thing that Platner is able to carry in a way that feels authentic is a genuine feeling that the system is hollow at its core. You know, people talk aboutChris Hayes: 在他身上这可不是装出来的。这是这事最关键的部分。
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>> which is not a put on with him. I which is the key part of this.Ezra Klein: 我认为这确实——是的，我认为这很重要。我的意思是，关于他的生活，关于他做了什么或没做什么，你可以说很多，我们也会谈论其中一些。但是他是一个相信体制已经失效的人，因为体制辜负了他，而他也从体制中跌落了。
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>> I think that's really yes I think that's important. I mean you can say a lot about his life and what he has done or has not done and we'll talk about some of that too. >> But he is somebody who believes the institutions have failed because they have failed for him and he has failed out of them.Chris Hayes: 没错。那种敌意是真实的。
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>> Right. The hostility is authentic.Ezra Klein: 是的。而且[喷鼻息]当你听他在台上演讲时，他传递的信息不仅仅是关于单一付款人医保（single-payer healthcare）或绿色新政（green new deal），他传递的信息是——嗯，你知道，我认为他的方式与伯尼（Bernie）截然不同，但他使用了类似的语言来谈论一场未指明的政治革命。他传递的信息是，这所有的一切，以某种方式，都错了。
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>> Yes. And [snorts] when you listen to him on the stump more than he is carrying a message about singlepayer healthcare or a green new deal, he is carrying a message about uh you know in a very different way I think than Bernie did but using similar language about an unspecified political revolution. He's carrying a message about this is all wrong somehow.Chris Hayes: 是的。而你需要的是一个从根本上相信这一切以某种方式都错得离谱的人。
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>> Yeah. And what you need is somebody who fundamentally believes it is all wrong somehow.Graham Platner: 我们今天生活的这个世界是不自然的。我们并非生活在一个有机的政治和经济现实中。这是一个由政策决定所构建的体系。政策是由华盛顿特区的建制派政客，在他们的捐赠者和支持者的授意下编写的。这个体系被设计成确保无论你多么努力工作，你永远都不会觉得自己拥有权力。权力是属于这些人的。他们高高在上。他们有资格。他们有血统。他们有背景。他们是那些被允许替我们做决定的人。让我们别操心了。让他们来处理吧。好吧，我现在要告诉你们，那个故事完全是胡扯！
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>> The world that we live in today is not natural. We do not live in a political and economic reality that is organic. It is a system that is built by policy decisions. Policy that is written by establishment politicians in Washington DC at the behest of their donors and their supporters. And it is a system that was made to make sure that no matter how hard you work, you will never feel like you have power. Power is for these people. And they're up there. They're qualified. They have the pedigree. They have the background. They're the ones that are allowed to make decisions for us. Don't worry ourselves. Let them take care of it. Well, I'm going to tell you right now, that story is [ __ ]Ezra Klein: 纵观目前取得成功的许多候选人，你可以看到。你知道，在这里我确实认为“Bomb Donnie”（唐纳德·特朗普），你知道，是合适的。我们会谈谈 Abdul El-Sayed。唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）显然也是这样的。大量取得突破的候选人，他们之所以能脱颖而出，与其说是因为政治纲领，不如说是凭借一种真实的幻灭感。是的。
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And you can look across a lot of the candidates who are succeeding right now. You know, here I do think Bomb Donnie, you know, is a, you know, fits in. We'll talk about Abdul say. Donald Trump was obviously like this. A large number of the candidates who have broken through are breaking through with a with a a a message more even than an agenda of like genuine disillusionment. Yes.Chris Hayes: 还有愤怒。
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>> And anger.Ezra Klein: 是的。我的意思是，我认为这里有几个相关的问题。第一，我认为人们使用“民粹主义”（populism）这个词，它可能比任何词都更接近我们所描述的这种趋势。嗯，幻灭，对失败的现状感到沮丧，特别是精英的失败。所以，由此引出了几个有趣的问题。一个是，这是否有特定的意识形态倾向？你能成为一个温和的民粹主义者吗？你能成为一个中间派民粹主义者吗，这是一个有趣的问题。另一个是，当你突然身处现任者的位置时，你还能驾驭这种吸引眼球的政治吗？