Anna Martin: From the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. Today I'm talking to Janette McCertie. Janette pretty much grew up in front of an audience. She was a Nickelodeon star. You probably know her from the show iCarly. But behind the scenes, she was struggling. And she wrote about all of it in her 2022 bestselling memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died. Now, she has a new book out. It's a novel, and it's called Half His Age. And it's a story about a relationship between a 17-year-old girl named Waldo and her 40-year-old teacher, Mr. Corgi. What hit me about Half His Age is just how complicated this dynamic is between Waldo and Mr. Corgi. Janette does not sugarcoat their relationship, but she also doesn't pass judgment. Janette told me when she was 18, she had her own age gap relationship, and it took writing this book for her to fully come to terms with what happened and what she learned from it. A heads up before we get into it, this episode does get explicit. So, if you're listening with kids around, save this one for later. Janette Mccertie, welcome to Modern Love.

Janette McCertie: Hi, Anna.

Anna Martin: Janette, your first book was a memoir that spent over 80 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. It's called I'm Glad My Mom Died. And now you've written a new book called Half His Age. It's a novel. It's fiction, but there are elements of your own life that you brought into the story, which we'll get into. First though, why don't you tell me about this book? What is Half His Age about?

Janette McCertie: Yeah. Half His Age. Whoa. I got so serious now.

Anna Martin: I like that. We can We can span all these different tones. Please.

Janette McCertie: I was like, "This is the New York Times."

Anna Martin: Why is it sultry, too? Kind of.

Janette McCertie: I like that vibe. Please. That That feels like it actually kind of fits with what is Half His Age is about, right? A bit of a sultry vibe.

Anna Martin: All right. Give it to me.

Janette McCertie: So Half His Age is an exploration of female rage and power and desire as told through the lens of a very lonely and ravenous 17-year-old girl.

Anna Martin: ravenous. That is a specific word. Tell me what you mean by that.

Janette McCertie: She wants desperately so many things. So many things. She wants clothing that will make her feel like someone other than she is. She wants beauty items that she thinks will make her feel like something other than she is. She wants a person who she thinks might make her feel like something other than she is. She's really desperately seeking identity and solace and comfort in many different areas of life. She wants there's this deep well of wanting. Yeah. And let's even sort of set the scene even more. She's she Waldo, the main character, is 17. She lives in Alaska. What's her family situation like?

Janette McCertie: So Waldo was born to a teen mother. Her mother had her when she was 16 years old and she spent her childhood in various trailer parks. She has not great self-esteem as a result of her circumstances and various messaging that she's gotten from various people.

Anna Martin: her mother, society and now, when we meet her in the book, she's just going into her senior year of high school.

Anna Martin: And it's in school that we meet the other main character of this book Mr. Corgi. Tell me about Mr. Corgi.

Janette McCertie: Mr. Corgi I I

Anna Martin: pause. Where do we begin? No, you know,

Janette McCertie: there's two ways that I could answer this. And one is this sort of, you know, skewering him and defending Waldo and protecting Waldo, which is one instinct that I have. And the other is to more to empathize with him and to find the humanity in him. And

Janette McCertie: as challenging as that was kind of throughout the writing process, that wound up being really really pivotal so that he wasn't too mustache twirly or, you know, on then villainous. So Mr. Corgi, if I try to touch into my empathy toward him, you know, he's a 40-year-old creative writing teacher who has so many failed dreams. None of his dreams for himself panned out.

Janette McCertie: He's living with a lot of regret and a lot of disappointment.

Janette McCertie: Most of that unprocessed. He's just kind of chugging along, going through the dayto-day, fulfilling his duties and obligations as a husband, as a father, as a teacher, and trying to feel okay with himself despite really feeling shame about not living up to his expectations for the life that he wanted for himself.

Anna Martin: I mean, people, you know, can't see this, but I have the the pleasure of you're you're closing your eyes. I mean, it's clear to me that you're inhabiting his mind. And what you said about empathy, I think, is so striking and so important because Waldo, 17, Mr. Corgi, you know, 40some, they begin a a sexual and and a romantic relationship, a deeply intimate relationship that the rest of the book explore sort of the peaks and the valleys and the fallout of, you know, in in both of their lives. Tell me more about what you said. There's these two ways you could look at him as a you know what was the f it was like to really judge and then the other was this empathy that you embodied and you said that was a struggle when you were writing this book. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Janette McCertie: Yeah, I went through so many drafts of this novel and in the beginning drafts I really wrote Corgi as too on the nose, as too villainous. And I think that was me as a as an author interfering because I wanted to protect Waldo because I felt so much love and compassion for her and not as much for Corgi.

Janette McCertie: I had those judgments toward him that I think are the very easy kind of, you know, first draft judgments that you're going to have of a person in this kind of a situation. And then when I would read those drafts back, I realized he just did not read grounded. He did not read believable. And ultimately, because he was reading that way, that was a disservice to Waldo as a narrator. It made her less credible. It made her unreliable because you're going, "Well, why is why does she even like this person? What does she like about him?" And for her to to be discredited, if she were discredited, I would lose the novel. So, I had to go in and try to really empathize with him, really find that compassion for him, and really feel into the reality of being someone in his position and the reality of being Waldo.

Anna Martin: This book is told through Waldo's perspective, this 17-year-old. We're really in that 17-year-old brain. I think you did a remarkable job of inhabiting that age. It was so effective. It was actually quite uncomfortable for me. like you really hit that funny fizzy mix of like bravado and insecurity. The way that you describe how Waldo puts on her makeup like it's protection, like it's armor, but she's never satisfied. All the online shopping to kind of try on new identities, how she hates the people in school, but also sort of wants to be them. It's like we're really inhabiting this kind of intense fluctuation of the teenage brain. Why was it important for you to tell this story through Waldo's perspective instead of I don't know like a like a third person narrator telling this story?

Janette McCertie: I also want to circle back to your discomfort. I have I'm so curious about about anytime somebody brings up discomfort. I'm interested.

Anna Martin: Oh my god. Ask me a question. I love that. What? Yeah. I mean in terms of like why was I uncomfortable?

Anna Martin: Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, I think it's it's what I'm point it's. Like I remember being this age and kind of simultaneously thinking I was the [ __ ] and thinking I was [ __ ] Do you know what I mean? Like it was just this this real roller coaster moment to moment. Not even dayto day. Just like truly many moments in the day where I was like,

Anna Martin: you know, I know stuff. I'm mature. Oh my gosh, I'm you know, I don't know anything. Like this just this constant vacasillation of my identity. I feel like I didn't have a core or a center. And you know, speak about the wanting that you said with Waldo. My gosh, I wanted so much. So, I just I feel like you put me in that unstable is the word that comes to mind, but I don't mean that in a judgmental way either. I just mean like this kind of Yeah. electric feelings of of insecurity and bravado. That That's what it brought me back to.

Janette McCertie: Yeah.

Anna Martin: So interesting. I also I feel like unstable is the perfect word. I feel like nobody's stable at 17. There's so much inherent instability and uncertainty. You don't know where anything is going to land. It is so uncomfortable to be 17.

Anna Martin: It is. Well, how did you get Let me just ask like how did you as a

Anna Martin: Sorry, rude to someone their age, but from my research, you're 33. Is that correct?

Janette McCertie: I'm 31. Okay. So, we're all friends here. The What was it like to put yourself back in that 17-year-old perspect? How did you do it?

Janette McCertie: Well, maybe this is the way I relate to a 17-year-old most is that I always say if emotions are on a scale of a 1 to a 10, I don't really feel anything beneath an eight.

Anna Martin: Like, wait, now we're not going 17-year-old you.

Janette McCertie: No, now now I'm a feeler.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Janette McCertie: I'm such a feeler. I'm so you know, sensitive and fought that for a long time. Now I'm you know, I'm okay with it and and it's not that it's not ever challenging. It certainly can be, but I've always been this way. And so, I think that's kind of an element of being 17. But the the real extremes I definitely don't relate to anymore. Thank God. Oh my lord.

Janette McCertie: Um, and the feeling the the kind of what you're describing of the whiplash of narratives dayto day. I'm the worst. I I'm the best. You know, yeah. It's it's um

Janette McCertie: quite disorienting, quite chaotic,

Janette McCertie: and You know, it's I I I don't know how to describe it other than it was just I was actually okay. I was actually writing another novel.

Anna Martin: Oh my gosh.

Janette McCertie: But it was something I feel like this thing happens with ideas. Um where it's like working on a project is like being in a relationship.

Janette McCertie: And in the beginning, it's the honeymoon phase and it's amazing and it's sexy and it's hot and it's the greatest thing. And then it becomes work.

Anna Martin: Totally. And when it becomes work,

Janette McCertie: all your other little ideas start looking real hot and you're going, "Well, what if I dated them? Could I just take them out on one date real quick?"

Janette McCertie: So, I was pretty deep in this other novel and then Half His Age just started pushing itself up on me. Yeah.

Janette McCertie: And what I mean by that is that Waldo's voice specifically started really pushing itself up on me and lines that she would say and just sort of this overwhelming almost flush of anger kind of would surge through my body which is I think you know much of Waldo is really she's suppressing her anger and I think that's really a a a key element of her arc. Yeah, you do get that sense throughout the book that Waldo is very angry and I think that's a quite powerful emotion, you know, to to experience from from Waldo's point of view. We get this sense of anger, anger towards her situation, anger towards Mr. Corgi. You know, another thing too about this account that I think is important is that in this physical relationship with Mr. Corgi, it's Waldo who makes the first move. Can you talk to me about that choice? Like, was that important to you? And if so, why?

Janette McCertie: It was so important to me that Waldo be very aggressive, very forward, very adamant, very bold, because ultimately she is still 17.

Janette McCertie: This in whatever ways she pushes, asserts, inserts herself onto this person, into this dynamic, she's 17. And I and I really tried not to be, you know, moralistic or or finger waggy in the writing of the book. And here I am about to get moralistic. Um, I managed to go 300 pages and now it all comes out, my friend. Now it all comes out.

Janette McCertie: But you know, it is it's like no matter what this girl does, no matter how she she could throw herself at his feet,

Janette McCertie: he's still 40 and he's still our teacher.

Anna Martin: If Mr. Corgi had made the first move. What would be different about that story?

Janette McCertie: I think it would be an easier story. Um, I think it would be one where you can label judgment a lot quicker.

Janette McCertie: and you can write off both Corgi and Waldo in a sense and you can kind of instantly put them into these boxes and go, "Okay, I know what this story is. I know I know what this is going to be." You know, you really I think you could close the book at that point to be honest. You wouldn't need to read it.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah. It would be very clear morally, but instead

Anna Martin: you chose to write this book that I we've said the word uncomfortable that exists like much more in sort of a gray area because Waldo wants like Waldo wants him and and even in these sex scenes, I mean, there's like a real kind of mutuality there, right? It's not just one person pursuing the other. They're both hungry for each other. There's this quote from Half His Age where Waldo says, "Sex is the one place where my needs aren't too big and all of my yearning is acceptable. The one place where I can show how deep the well is within me. The one place I can beg and whine and scream to have it filled." So it's like sexes is is this representation of her wanting of this kind of unquenchable need as we've talked about.

Janette McCertie: Definitely. I think that's such a common experience for young women. It was certainly my experience. It was certainly the experience of literally every one of my female friends.

Anna Martin: Bring it up. It's very and it's like, you know, at that age, we don't necessarily know how to

Anna Martin: maybe even acknowledge our needs, let alone articulate them to somebody else.

Anna Martin: Emotional needs, not

Janette McCertie: emotional needs. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think sex kind of acts as this placeholder or this thing that we think can house all of our needs that we think, okay, well, you know, I want him to treat me better, to make more time for me, to um, you know, acknowledge my emotions. Uh, instead, well, can he just [ __ ] me because that's all I think I can get? Maybe that's all I think I'm worth. Maybe maybe I just don't know how to vocalize those other needs yet.

Anna Martin: In other interviews, you shared that you had an experience with an age gap relationship that started when you were around 18. Was writing Half His Age a way to process that experience for you?

Janette McCertie: In some ways, I think so. You know, I definitely think that seed of that overlap was the jumping off point for the novel. And then of course, you know, Waldo's her own character and and and Half His Age is its own story and and

Janette McCertie: I know so many people will project me onto this. I'm aware. I'm fine with that. Although I do think it is a misread because, you know, Waldo truly truly is her own character and deserves to be seen for that.

Janette McCertie: But I do find writing is a way for me to process things that I maybe hadn't processed fully from my past. I do think writing is a way for me to find closure in areas where I didn't have closure.

Anna Martin: Well, you mentioned that it was anger was the kind of anchoring emotion that pulled, you know, you towards this this book into this story. So, it seems like there must have maybe even, you know, subconsciously been anger around this experience that you perhaps needed to work through. Does that feel true?

Janette McCertie: Yes. Several drafts in, I literally did not know why I was writing this book and I didn't want to analyze. I didn't want to figure it out. I just thought, "Okay, this is coming through me. Great. Let's just go with it." And then a few drafts in, I looked back over it and, you know, I was looking over it with a red pen and a highlighter and realizing, "Oh my god, I have so much unprocessed anger about situations from my past. I think that is the emotional charge that is making this book happen."

Anna Martin: Huh. How did it feel to realize that?

Janette McCertie: jarring I guess because, you know, I've I've done so much work in therapy. I've done so much you know personal work on myself and I really really value personal growth and it's something that I it's not like I'm thinking about this relationship is so far in the past I'm not thinking about it. I don't feel burdened by it in any way. I'm not thinking like, you know, I'm it's really not something that I think about. And so the fact that there was clearly so much left to process that needed to come out about it was shocking.

Anna Martin: However much again you feel comfortable sharing. Can you tell me about that relationship that happened when you were around 18?

Janette McCertie: Yeah, I was 18. He was in his mid30s.

Janette McCertie: And I was a very I was so much more naive than Waldo. Waldo is so much bolder than I was. She's so much more perceptive and um

Anna Martin: and sexually experienced. That's a big part of the

Janette McCertie: Exactly. and sexually experienced. Um I was perceptive, but I would kind of shove down my instincts and not address them at all. Waldo's glaringly aware of how she thinks and feels about everything at all times. Um, I respect her for it, but I was very suppressed. I grew up Mormon. And though my family hadn't really been to church, you know, in a in a few years at that point, I still really had that kind of Mormon value system embedded in me. And so sex was bad and not something I was going to do until marriage. And even sexuality was sort of perverse and viewed as perverse. And and I I had literally no experience with men at all.

Anna Martin: Well, like not even a kiss.

Janette McCertie: Let's see. I had had one kiss. I'd had one kiss in a Hampton Inn in Suites in Nashville, Tennessee.

Anna Martin: Shout out.

Janette McCertie: It was hot. Okay.

Anna Martin: So, you had a kiss, but nothing.

Janette McCertie: Had a kiss. Exactly. Nothing beyond that. Had never been on a date. Like nothing. And then this happened. this relationship with this this person and and initially he was he had a girlfriend. He he lived with his girlfriend.

Anna Martin: Whoa.

Janette McCertie: Yeah. And there were a few months where he was with her and and we were essentially together, you know, and

Anna Martin: Yeah. C. Can I ask you like putting yourself back 18-year-old you, like what intrigued you about him? How did you feel when you were with him?

Janette McCertie: He seemed real to me. You know, growing up in Hollywood, there is just a certain way that world operates. And it's really never been one that I feel like I've understood the rules of. It feels like there is a secret code to Hollywood that everyone was told. Everyone was just tapped on the head with the rules of Hollywood. And I'm sitting here going, "A little." And I'm going, "What is literally anybody saying at any given time? Why can nobody own an opinion? Like, can we please somebody, for the love of God, own their opinions? Anyway, I love Hollywood. It's great.

Anna Martin: Say it. Sound like there'd be fun parties.

Janette McCertie: It's um Yeah. And and and I then I you know, I met this person who just seemed real and seemed

Anna Martin: and were they I've heard another You met them at work, so they were still part of the world, but yeah, they felt

Janette McCertie: different from the world. Yeah. They didn't feel Hollywood to me. Um they didn't seem like they spoke in that kind of code. It's it's not a wink and a gun, but Hollywood really does kind of feel like a wink and a gun. Um, as people are just talking at you all the time, but he he just felt different and he seemed vulnerable. He seemed honest about, you know, himself and and and his life. I I was attracted to him.

Anna Martin: And you were physically attracted to him.

Janette McCertie: Yes. Although, you know, I suppose there is some overlap here cuz when when Maldo first meets Mr. Corgi, she's really shocked that she is attracted to someone who is not conventionally attractive.

Anna Martin: Yes.

Anna Martin: Up to this point in her life, she's only been attracted to people who are attractive. Yes. She calls out that she's like, you know, the what's it? I'm going to butcher your beautiful words, but like the pores on his face and the punch and the these types of things. She like acknowledges these at the same time as being like, I want his wrinkly balls. I mean, that's something that you mention in the book, right?

Janette McCertie: Yes. she's drawn to him and doesn't really doesn't know why because this has never happened before. And um you know that there there was certainly some overlap in my experience where this is not somebody who I I found you know particularly physically attractive and yet I felt very attracted to him.

Anna Martin: Was this the kind of first time you'd felt that intense physical attraction?

Janette McCertie: 100%. 100%. It was this hungry kind of I have to be with this person attraction.

Anna Martin: Yeah, I know it. I mean, I felt it and I can also remember that first time. How did we talked about what drew you to him, but how did he make you feel when you were with him?

Janette McCertie: Seen in a way that others really couldn't. I think I think most other people were sort of taking my I mean, it was like a goody two shoes Mormon. I like I spoke in a different voice. It's like Mhm. Yes, sir. Like so annoying, obnoxious. And I think other people took those behaviors at face value and believed that I was that.

Janette McCertie: And there was something in him that was like, what's really going on? Like what's underneath that? I know I know you're smarter than you're pretending to be. I know you're seeing more than you're pretending to.

Janette McCertie: What's kicking around? And so in that way, there was sort of an opportunity for me to learn more about myself than I had before through others.

Anna Martin: That must have been really validating for the for a realer version of you to be seen by someone.

Janette McCertie: Yeah, it was. Yeah.

Janette McCertie: Yeah. Of course, I have complicated feelings about that now.

Anna Martin: Of course, when we will get to those, but in the I think it's interesting to sort of exist because in the space of of your 18-year-old brain, right? I mean, we talked about how important it is again, you are not Waldo. Waldo is not you. It's like important to make that distinction. You know, we spend so much time in Waldo's brain. It's illuminating. And now you're letting us into like what was actually your exper being in your brain being like, I'm I'm being seen. Other people don't see me in this way. This person feels real. This person feels different. For the first, you said bit of time while you were seeing each other. This man was in a relationship. So, was it a It was more of a secret. This was just between you two.

Janette McCertie: Yes, it was a secret. And it was a thing that it was a secret and it was a massive stressor. And I think, you know, back on that now and the undeniable link between generational trauma and my experience in my upbringing and why I was attracted to that kind of a situation in the first place. Now, of course, it seems utterly insane to be like, wait, this person has a girlfriend that he lives with and like it just red flags on red flags on red flags on red flags. But at the time there was something that my body was familiar with in the stress that this relationship provided me and a strange comfort in that stress. This may sound gross. This may sound confusing, but I think anyone who grew up in a dysfunctional family knows exactly what I'm talking about. I grew up with, you know, parents screaming and and fighting and constantly and it was really chaotic. And so my body I think expected and accepted that kind of chaos as normaly as home.

Anna Martin: I mean the intimate dynamic the sexual dynamic between the two of you. You mentioned that you were not experienced before this relationship.

Janette McCertie: at all. I literally did not know what come was. I did not know what come was.

Anna Martin: You did not know what come was. Yeah. I mean it's there is a time where we don't know what come is 18 but

Janette McCertie: that's where I was at kids.

Anna Martin: I'm trying to like think about like interest. Okay. Um and and what was it like to discover that's not a question I've ever asked on the show before. What was it like to discover what come was? But that is the question.

Janette McCertie: It was nasty.

Anna Martin: And and this is like a hm how do I ask this? It's like cuz cuz earlier on in the conversation you were talking about how you know sex for you became a really important part of relationships or like a container for emotional needs.

Janette McCertie: and how I felt value. Frankly, I didn't really see or understand my value in other areas at all. I yeah I I really believed that my value came from sex.

Anna Martin: And this what was it this because this was your first sexual relationship, right? So it's where these sort of neural pathways were being connected if it were like how did sex factor into this relationship and how did it sort of teach you this is determinant of my worth?

Janette McCertie: Well, I'll share the come story with you first cuz that was okay sort of the tip of the iceberg. Right.

Anna Martin: Of course

Janette McCertie: where so he had you know he had had a girlfriend. This was maybe it began in you know August or so and then by October November it was really it was becoming too difficult for me and so I was the one who was like I I don't think I can do this anymore and then of course the moment that you say that is the m well I'm leaving her. I'm going to leave her.

Anna Martin: Right.

Janette McCertie: Um the I'm I swear I'm going to tomorrow. He eventually did. Yeah. It was I'm going to do it tomorrow. I'm going to next week I'm going to and it just kept getting punted. And then there was this big kind of grand plan where he was going to go out of town to visit family for Christmas.

Janette McCertie: and he was going to break up with her when he returned. So he's going to go break up with his girlfriend and then I'm supposed to pick him up, right? And so we're going to go to my apartment, but then my mom's sick. So then she comes to my apartment with like my dad, my grandma, my grandpa, my three brother. So, it's just like this big Mormon dorky family in my apartment and I'm like trying to bring my 30-some yearear-old boyfriend home, right? So, then I'm like, "Okay."

Anna Martin: Sort of like Yeah. Worst case scenarios in all directions.

Janette McCertie: Worst case scenario. Exactly. So, then I I'm like, "Okay, I can I can problem solve here. I know what I'll do. I'll get us a room at the Sherin Universal."

Anna Martin: Not the Hampton Inn where you had your first should have gone back. They've treated me well. Those warm cookies are great.

Janette McCertie: So, I got a I got a a night stay at the Sheran Universal. I picked him up. He was drunk off his ass, which I had never had a sip of alcohol at this point. O

Janette McCertie: or um yeah, maybe I had had one sip at this point. I don't know the timeline, but I certainly had never had like a glass of alcohol at this point.

Janette McCertie: And so, I didn't know that he was completely drunk. Like, now I get, oh, he was way way way drunk. I was I don't know if he'd had one drink and this is just what a person looked like. He's like stumbling around. There's beer stains all on his shirt. Just a mess.

Janette McCertie: And I'm like a little embarrassed already in the lobby, right? Cuz he's just stumbling around. He's like banging up against the elevator door. We get up to our room. He can't even I remember he couldn't swipe the key card on. He couldn't get it to work. So I take the key card. We go inside and then he's sobbing and wondering if he made the right choice, thinking he made a mistake.

Anna Martin: He broke up. He just he just broke up.

Janette McCertie: Literally just left this breakup. So, he's in the throws of that and and really emotional and then asks me to give him a [ __ ] because up to this point I have said, "I don't do sex till marriage. I'm not going to do that. I don't I mean, I didn't even really know. I wouldn't have known how to do it." Um,

Janette McCertie: and so it had just been sort of kissing up to that point. And then he says, "You know, I I need to know that you're comfortable doing something. I'm okay not having sex, but I need to know that you you'll do something because I need I need my I have to have my needs met." he had said.

Anna Martin: Wow, that is really interesting language.

Janette McCertie: Isn't that interesting language? Um, and so I felt a flood of anxiety, like full body fire anxiety, and just thinking, okay, I have to figure out how to do this thing that I don't know how to do. So I was like asking him

Anna Martin: or else I'll lose or else. I mean, that's the state.

Janette McCertie: Exactly. Exactly.

Janette McCertie: So then, and at first I said no. I'd said no, you know, a couple times and then it was okay, I'm leaving, you know, that kind of thing, which was very much our our dynamic. um as a whole was just so unhealthy. But um of course I'm included in that. I'm not just putting that on him. But then he he starts telling me kind of how to do it. And so I'm giving him the [ __ ] And then you know he says I'm going to come. I don't know what that means. I figure like come where? What are you talking like? Are you sitting up? Like that you know I didn't know what that meant. And then it came in my mouth and um I said something came out. something came out and I like ran to the sink and I was I thought he peed in my mouth like like first I was like oh my god he peed in my mouth but then I'm like this doesn't I mean I've never tasted pee but it doesn't taste like what I think pee would taste like. Um and it was just so much confusion so much body discomfort. Um, and so much comedy gold now.

Anna Martin: I was going to say I mean I'm making these sort of like sad laughter because like there are parts of this just as there are parts of this book that are funny. Like there is humor here. There is humor and being like what the heck is this? you know, but but then you sort of zoom out and you understand you see the context in which you know this is happening and the power dynamics that are operating here. And so it is it doesn't it's like humor alongside of this other thing. I mean after this happened

Anna Martin: um

Anna Martin: do you remember how you felt where you're like I did it like he's I've got him like I'm keeping him. What what was the what was your feeling if you can remember?

Janette McCertie: No, I think I felt very shaky and uncertain and I don't I didn't think I had done a good job. Like I, you know, growing up as that people pleaser, I was really always rating myself in the performance of how much I was accommodating somebody else's needs and desires. So, it was, you know, how did I do on that [ __ ] Oh, I don't think I did well, you know, and so then it was just stress of thinking I I hadn't really done well. Um, and I got better, don't worry. Um,

Janette McCertie: I was freaking out, you know.

Anna Martin: No, you worry. Um, but you know, I I am I'm glad you you bring up this humor thing, too, because I think, you know, I I think it's an important piece of of all of this. I think there's so much humor and levity in dark subject matter, and to pretend there isn't is actually denying the truth of it,

Janette McCertie: and I think there's a way of of there's a way where humor can make something flippant or undermine the subject matter. And I don't like that. I I don't think that. I think that's kind of deflective and a defense mechanism. And I I generally don't enjoy reading those things, watching those things. They just don't resonate with me. But I do think there is an element of of humor and tragedy. It can be really honest and really um valuable. I think otherwise something can just be too kind of melodramatic and and insincere in that way.

Anna Martin: Huh.

Anna Martin: Is there another moment from this time in your life, from this relationship that has that kind of that you think about with some amount of humor? Is there another moment that comes to mind?

Janette McCertie: I mean, literally every element of my life that was happening at that at that point. Um Jeez. Yeah. I was 18 on a on a Nickelodeon show in a relationship with a 30-year-old person while my mom was dying. And this sort of juxtaposition, the highs and lows of that world were were oftentimes really funny. You know, it was it was hard at the time, but there was certainly humor in almost any given room at any given time. And maybe I wasn't able to see it then, but I think nowadays, I think somewhere in my, you know, maybe mid late 20s, it shifted mid20s where I could kind of see the humor a little bit more in real time. It didn't take, you know, 10 years of perspective or whatever to find the humor in something happening currently.

Anna Martin: The sort of ending. Speaking of this relationship that you were in, can you describe how how you left it? How things how things ended or stopped?

Janette McCertie: I left his ass.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Anna Martin: Okay. Hell yeah. Okay. I mean, as much as you want to share about that, I would be curious to hear.

Janette McCertie: I was still acting at the time.

Janette McCertie: and I was going away on a shoot to Canada, I want to say, um, Toronto. Yeah.

Janette McCertie: I was trying to remember if I was doing a shoot in New York or if it was a different thing in Toronto, but I think it was the Toronto one. And I just had this feeling of of life is in front of me. I had actually broken up with him once before, you know, and there had been multiple he had broken up with me. I had broken up with it was again that kind of a thing. But um but I had broken up with him as my mom was dying.

Anna Martin: Jeez, Janette.

Janette McCertie: This was kind of before this Toronto situation, but as my mom was dying because I felt like my my thinking was this. I will bond with him too much by like leaning on him and expecting the support from him and going through this experience with him. That's going to bond me too much that I don't know if I'll get out later. I don't know if I'll be able to.

Anna Martin: You will bond with him during this time when your mom was dying and you might not be able to extricate yourself. So, better to get out now.

Janette McCertie: I felt like I may be stuck. I may be trapped. that and that's a I really don't like to feel stuck or trapped in anyway. I like to feel free. How long were you two seeing each other all told with the ups and downs?

Janette McCertie: It would have been like maybe a little over 2 years with a couple like short breakups in between.

Anna Martin: in the relationships in the years that followed. I mean, you had other relationships. Would you would you think about this guy? Would like something clue you? No. Not at all. Huh. You're shaking your head. Yeah. Not at all.

Janette McCertie: No. I literally it was truly I think by the time I move on from things I am ready to move on. I have tried everything. I have exhausted all options. I am confident in my decision and that goes for literally I mean I can think of so many relational and otherwise that once I move on I'm going I'm not looking back. There's I've wasted enough time on this already. I'm good.

Anna Martin: Huh. But then this anger resurfaced. Why do you think it resurfaced now? Like what was it? Or not now in the moment of writing this book. Why? What brought it back up?

Janette McCertie: I've thought about that. I've explored that. I think what it is is that in our 30s, we as women, we finally have this space to reframe our relationship with our past self in a way to meet her with more I'm actually getting a little goosebumps as I'm saying this must be true where it feels like, oh, I can see myself with more compassion than I had for myself before and more understanding. And you know, our 20s are such a blur typically and we're just it's ambition and we're trying to find our way and it's a mess and relationship is just it's it's chaos and it's fun chaos and it's me messy chaos and it's ugly chaos. But then by, you know, by 30 we've kind of started to maybe land somewhere, find our footing, settle in. There's space to reflect in a way that maybe we didn't in our 20s. And I think it really opens up our relationship to our past self in a way that we didn't have access for previously.

Anna Martin: Oh my gosh. From one 30 something woman to I'm like, "Yes, it's it's so true." But I think what you're saying is is very spot-on, at least with my experience. This is the first time in my life, this age where I feel like I have that space, to reflect, to process, to look back at things, you know, and and and it seems like when you looked back at this relationship, anger was something that resurfaced. I guess I wonder like in writing this book, do you look back on that relationship differently? Like is that do do you see it in a new way?

Janette McCertie: Yeah, I think I think that's one of the many I think superpowers of writing is it, you know, it does lead to closure where there wasn't closure. And I think I I felt I I didn't even realize that I didn't have closure about this thing, but I think I felt that. And there's um I think there's a softness that's accessible through I think letting the rage out, letting it letting it, you know, lead. There's now kind of um a softness and dare I say, you know, an appreciation maybe.

Anna Martin: Wow. For that experience. Yeah.

Janette McCertie: For that experience. It's of course very complicated and um I have a lot of regret and it's not clean in any way. But I think you know I can either stay mad at it and hold on to that or I can say you know what I've moved on from it. I've learned from it. It's informed who I am today and the choices I've made and how can I take value from it. And I think circling back to power, that's a way of of finding power because maybe I I didn't really feel any at the time.

Anna Martin: This anger we're speaking of. Who were you angry at? Him, yourself, the world? Like what what was that anger directed towards?

Janette McCertie: Him and myself. And then I think my circumstances, assuming that some version of those circumstances maybe, you know, led me down that path or contributed to me landing on that path. Hm.

Anna Martin: Meaning like, you know, for example, growing up Mormon and having such such strict guidelines and rules constantly in regulations and, you know, being on kids TV and just feeling like I was supposed to be this one thing all the time. It's like a pressure cooker. It's like it's like a shaken soda can. It's like it's going to burst at some point. And what better way to burst? What better way for a people pleaser, Mormon, child actor, mommy's angel to burst than going, "Guess what? My first relationship is gonna be with a 30-some year old man. Take that everybody. Like

Anna Martin: mic drop.

Janette McCertie: Huh. Yes. Yes. I mean,

Janette McCertie: I wasn't thinking that. I of course wasn't like, "Oh, I'm going to do this to get back at people." But, you know, in in in hindsight, I I do see elements of that for sure.

Anna Martin: What's on the other side of anger? Like, once you expel it, what's there? What's left?

Janette McCertie: Well, I I don't even want to expel it. Like I love anger. I'm so grateful for anger. I think it's led me to make every strong good decision in my life that I've made. Um anger is what got me to get over an eating disorder. Anger is what got me to get into the right relationship, which is the one that I'm in now that I've been in for 9 years. You know, anger is what got me to quit acting and say no more. Anger is what's gotten me anything good in my life.

Anna Martin: Wow. I mean, it it sounds counterintuitive. I feel like I emotionally understand, but but help me understand more. When you say like anger got me into this wonderful relationship, how did anger get you there? What do you mean by that?

Janette McCertie: Because I was so sick of previous relationships and how I behaved in previous relationships, how the other person behaved, what the dynamic was. Um, and I just thought, you know, I've got to put in the work. And I would get, you know, self-help books and I would look at YouTube videos of therapists and dating advice and just I thought, I'm going to figure this out. I'm too mad. I'm going to figure out how to do it right and how to do it better. I'm going to heal my the parts that need healing so that I don't re re um create these patterns and it's it's hard work, but anger is so mobilizing that it can get you through I think any amount of of work.

Janette McCertie: Like thank God for anger. I think, you know, sadness can really for me keep me stuck and just in the trenches and anxiety can keep me kind of debilitated and oh, I'm not able to make a decision cuz I'm too anxious. But my god, anger will get me off the [ __ ] chair and making some decisions and moving forward and doing the work.

Anna Martin: This is sort of a classic question, but I think it's merited here. I if you could talk to 18-year-old you, 18-year-old Janette, what would you say to her?

Janette McCertie: Run.

Anna Martin: Run, baby. Run fast. Run far.

Janette McCertie: Um.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah.

Janette McCertie: I really would. I really would. You know, I mentioned earlier kind of an appreciation for the past and and I and I do feel that. But I also think truly if I could tell myself anything, I'd say run. cuz sure you've got stories to tell now, but you would have had other stories to tell if you'd have just left those situations, numerous situations.

Anna Martin: I think that's the first time I've heard that response, run. And it was immediate. It was immediate. Often times people like, and I have, you know, just be gentle with yourself. You're like, get

Anna Martin: the hell out of dodge.

Anna Martin: Wow. Janette, thank you so much for this conversation.

Janette McCertie: Thank you, Anna. It's been so rich. I was going to say fun. Fun is appropriate. rich is appropriate, but it just feels um fulfilling. So, thank you.

Anna Martin: The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poant, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis. It was edited by Lin Levy, and Jen Poant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Rowan Neimisto, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Carol Sabo, Alicia Beetup, Marian Lozano, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.