Anna Martin: From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. On today's show, I'm talking to the writer and former New York Times columnist, Lindy West. Years ago, Lindy wrote a book called Shrill that puts you inside her brilliant, weird, funny brain as she moves through a world that keeps telling her that being fat is a problem, that it makes her fundamentally unlovable. But by the end of Shrill, Lindy's feeling confident in herself, and she's also found love with her best friend, Aam. They get married, and they're going to be together forever. Now, in Lindy's latest book called Adult Braces, she's opening up about a problem that was kind of built into her marriage from the start. Aam did not want to be totally monogamous. And while Lindy wanted to be okay with that, really, she wasn't. This situation was bound to explode at some point. And today, I talked to Lindy about the moment it did. Lindy West. Welcome to Modern Love.

Lindy West: Thank you so much for having me.

Anna Martin: Lindy, okay. Towards the end of your first book, Shrill, you get married to your husband, Aam. Finding love always a big deal, but when you and Aam got together, it was a particularly big deal for you. Can you tell me why?

Lindy West: Yeah, I gosh, it's it's I haven't thought about this in such a long time, but Aam and I were just talking about this last night. Um, I had always been kind of lonely and single and sad and yearning, you know, and growing up in a fat body. People tell you no one will ever love you unless you fix your body. And um then being a a woman, a very visible woman on the internet, then strangers are just telling you that every single day, which uh I already kind of had it handled internally.

Anna Martin: You're like, I don't need the pylon.

Lindy West: I don't need the Come on, guys. Let as as Samantha says, let the plumber fix the sink. I got it. So, there's just all this baggage around it. But really, I mean, at heart, Aam and I just love each other so much and I think we both kind of knew that we couldn't imagine a life without the other person. So, you know, but but yeah, on some level, he wanted to give me that like big proposal, big wedding that I thought I would never get to have because it it it it was very it healed something in me.

Anna Martin: Yeah. marriage was not, you know, sort of only about affirming the connection between the two of you. It was also this kind of almost like public stamp of approval. Does that track was it sort of like that?

Lindy West: I mean, it feels disordered to say that, but I think but yeah.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Lindy West: Because I mean, we contain multitudes, right? And again, that's not why I got married. That would be crazy. I feel no I I feel like I need to also zoom out and just like affirm that you guys also really [ __ ] loved each other, right? Like there was this strong beautiful connection.

Anna Martin: Yeah. I mean, you know, we're very different, but we're also, you know, from from the first day, you know, we started dating, we were like, "Oh, that's my best friend." And then we just were never apart. M

Lindy West: even when we tried to break up a couple times, we were still just like calling each other every day and being like, "Hello, you know." Um, and we were very much two freaks who say the same thing at the same time. We make the same joke at the same time. We do the same riff.

Anna Martin: It's It's uh It's alarming and um off-putting

Lindy West: to others.

Anna Martin: Except to those. Yeah. Except to you. I mean,

Lindy West: except to us.

Anna Martin: I two freaks. I mean, two freaks matching each other's freak. When you got married, what did you hope your future would look like?

Lindy West: So, I think I just imagined that we would, you know, stay on the sort of traditional track. Um, I I thought we would probably have a baby and have a buy a house and, you know, continue to work. We also work together a lot. Aam is an artist and I work on his shows and he helps me a lot with my work with my writing and yeah, I think I sort of envisioned a a classic happy marriage. Like I think that I thought we would um just have a great time for the rest of our lives.

Anna Martin: That sounds great. That sounds that sounds I mean and I it's interesting that you bring up the word classic in reference to your marriage because you have a new book out. It's called Adult Braces. And in this book you share a piece of information about your relationship, your marriage to Aam that was not I would say quote unquote classic, right?

Lindy West: Yes.

Anna Martin: You share the fact that Aam was non-monogous. Correct.

Lindy West: Yes. So we briefly broke up in 2011. Then it was a bad time. I write about it in trill. Aam and I broke up. My dad died. Yeah.

Anna Martin: It was horrible. A tree fell on my house.

Lindy West: Then we got back together. But part of that was Aam was like, you know, I I've been divorced twice by age 27. And I feel like possessiveness and jealousy had a lot to do with both of those relationships collapsing. And I want us to be not together because we're trapped and locked together in a prison of love or you know he didn't say it like that.

Anna Martin: Of course. Yeah. You're editorializing. You're a writer. That makes sense. Yeah.

Lindy West: Um but uh he he was like I don't I don't think I don't think that monogamy is healthy for me. He has all these reasons which make intellectual sense. I'm like, I went to a liberal arts school. Totally. You know what I mean? But emotionally, how was this hitting you?

Lindy West: Yeah. Same for me. It made intellectual sense to me. And in fact, it had always made intellectual sense to me. I was like, I understand how this works and why people do this. I don't personally have the self-esteem to to cope with it.

Anna Martin: This too. Yeah.

Lindy West: Yeah. So my initial reaction was like I was devastated and I because I worked at the alt weekly. Dan Savage was my boss. It just it felt like everyone was supposed to do it or else you were like you were like a prude and a pioneer woman

Anna Martin: of course.

Lindy West: And I was like, why do I have to do that just cuz all these cool kids think it's better? Like, why can't I make my own choices? So, our initial conversation was a lot of me crying and being like, I don't want anyone else.

Anna Martin: Was it presented as sort of like we can get back together if we are non-monogous? Was it like a conditional thing? Okay.

Lindy West: Basically, I think so. But it wasn't him saying I'm going to go out and date people. you we're a couple who loves each other desperately getting back together. So, this was not a moment when either of us was like, "Oh, I want to go out and find someone else." We were ecstatic to be reuniting. Okay.

Anna Martin: So,

Lindy West: where we landed was if we want to be together for the rest of our lives, who knows what's going to happen in 10 years, 20 years, who we're going to meet, how we're going to feel. And to lock in and say our feelings are never going to change and we're never going to have any interest in anyone else outside of this partnership. It's just not realistic. Once it was reframed as something that I could something that we were going to deal with eventually

Anna Martin: and I love to procrastinate.

Lindy West: That's interesting though. You're kicking the can basically of this of this relationship. what definition framework.

Anna Martin: Uhhuh.

Lindy West: Which is so unfair to him because he really was telling me something that was that's important to him and I I always heard it as an obstacle that I could like wear down and overcome, you know, like I just need to be the best girlfriend so that he doesn't want this stupid thing anymore. Huh. And Aam Aham tried so hard to get me to actually engage with this emotionally.

Anna Martin: How how did he try?

Lindy West: Oh, I just mean he warned me. I think that my tendency to avoid hard things was toxic and was going to be a little bit poisonous in the relationship. And I do think it it did slow damage because cuz then what happened was because we had this nebulous thing that I had kicked down the road until an unknown time. I was always dreading when was that time gonna come.

Anna Martin: Yep.

Lindy West: So every time Aam initiated any kind of like rel hard conversation, even if it was just like you need to do the dishes right after you cook or whatever, I would react like someone was chasing me with a knife, you know, like I I would

Anna Martin: every conversation was like the big one where he'd be like, "I've met someone or I'm dating someone." like that spectre was always kind of looming for you.

Lindy West: Yes.

Anna Martin: But then there comes a point, you write about this in your book, where uh you can't avoid it. Tell me about the moment you found out that Aam was dating someone else.

Lindy West: 2019, I'm recording my audio book for my second book and I'm in Seattle. I had just gotten home from being away for 6 months

Lindy West: and I get a text while I'm recording my audiobook. Don't know why I had my phone on. Shouldn't have done that. And I I find out that someone who was a fan of mine, who knew what a ham looked like, had seen him kissing someone at a bar. And I just told the engineer that I had a family emergency and I had to go. And I went home and we talked for the rest of the night. And and at this point he was like he had sort of come to the conclusion that we couldn't resolve this. which is why he went ahead and started dating this person cuz he cuz I had been gone. I was I had refused to talk to him about it and I had technically agreed to be non-monogamous and he was like, "Well, I I'm just going to do what I need to do to feel like a person."

Anna Martin: I don't know. Did it feel like you were losing him? I want to understand this thing you've been dreading is now happening.

Lindy West: Yeah, I think it felt like I was losing him, but I I was just determined to win. I That's how I felt. I was like, "You're being crazy. I'm the greatest person alive." Cuz I also have high self-esteem in addition to low self-esteem.

Anna Martin: Multitudes.

Lindy West: I was like, "What the [ __ ] do you think you're doing? That's crazy." I I I let myself be angry in every possible direction, which was actually cathartic because I had been suppressing all those feelings for a really long time. You know what I mean? Like because I had because I had to be perfect girlfriend, perfect wife.

Anna Martin: So this wouldn't happen.

Lindy West: So this thing that's happening wouldn't happen.

Anna Martin: Yes. So yeah, we had this like multi-day fight

Lindy West: that was also like very tender and sweet, you know,

Anna Martin: cuz we we actually don't want to hurt each other.

Lindy West: Yeah. I mean, at at a certain point, did you end up That's a big sign. As the days went on, did you ask more questions about this person that Aam was seeing? Did you start to get curious?

Lindy West: No. Well, I think I was like, don't tell me anything about this stupid person. And I don't want to know. Like I was like a baby. I was I was like full child self, you know what I mean? Like having a tantrum.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Lindy West: I was not wearing my adult woman pants. I was Yeah. I was very much like, "Is she prettier than me? Do you love her more than me? You know, do do you guys laugh at me?"

Anna Martin: Do you remember what he said to that question?

Lindy West: Yeah. He said no. Hm.

Lindy West: You know, he said he said she's a really good person and and you're just different and he was like, "You're my wife." Like, I don't I don't love anybody more than you, you know?

Anna Martin: Did that feel true? Did that feel true to you in that moment?

Lindy West: Yes. And I just didn't understand. I was like, "Man, we have we found the best thing, you know? We we did it." Like we're best friends and we get to hang out every day.

Anna Martin: What? Why do you want to [ __ ] it up, dude?

Lindy West: What more could you want? Yeah.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Anna Martin: Eventually, you were kind of forced to reckon with the fact that this person Aam was dating was a pretty big part of his life. Tell me what you found out and how that made you feel.

Lindy West: So, uh, he told me that her name was Roya, and she was, uh, one of the artistic directors of a venue in Portland that had put on one of his shows. So, I actually met her when they did the show there. And she was so nice. Like, I remembered meeting her. I know she was like so small. She was like the tiniest little person. I am the biggest, loudest. Well, I'm not going to be self-deprecating, but I'm tall and I'm big and I take up a lot of space and energy. And she was just like a tiny little beautiful. She's like kind of goth, you know.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Lindy West: Meanwhile, I'm like I kind of dress like a clown. Um just very much an inverse of me in a lot of ways and of course in ways that made me feel wildly insecure.

Anna Martin: So, how did you you found out Aam, you know, sat you down at one point and was like, I need to tell you more about who this person is.

Lindy West: Yeah, because um her her best friend died and it was a one of those best friendships that's like family and she was his primary caregiver during his illness and it was just um Yeah. and she needed her support system there. And AAM was part of her support system. And Aam is a good person who cares about people really deeply. And he needed to go to Portland to be with her during these really hard weeks. And I remember being mad and being like, I'm not ready. and you never wait for me to be ready. You just do whatever you want to do. But then being like, what am I going to say? No, you can't go. You know, I don't want to be the kind of person that says someone important to you is in pain, unimaginable pain, and I'm going to sort of petulently say, "No, you need to stay here with me." You know, I don't want to be that person. And I simultaneously I'm doing all this work in my own therapy. Uh most of which is about me kind of remembering who I am not as part of a couple because especially since I had set it up as the perfect wife challenge um difficulty level impossible. I had really lost sight of who I was outside of that couple because my job was to do the couple and do it the best I could and do, you know, and do it exactly how I thought Aam would want it, you know, ex aside from the one thing he told me he did want. Um, and so I was starting to wake up those muscles of of being just Lindy. Who is that? You know, and I was spending time with my friends more and I was um spending more time alone and and so he left. I was still uncomfortable and anxious, but

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Lindy West: Yeah. you know,

Anna Martin: you knew for the first time where he was and he was with this other woman.

Lindy West: Yeah. Yeah. And I was like I had to sort of imagine what they were doing and basically he started going regularly like maybe once a month and it just got easier every time, you know. And I started to experiment with letting go. What if I do picture what they're doing? What if I do think about her? What if I looked at her picture on Instagram and thought about her as a person who's not an adversary to me? And the more I did that, it felt so much better than just being in denial and being scared and being being fearful of losing control. Um because you you actually can't control other people. Should I be able to? Yes.

Anna Martin: Yeah. But the only person I can control is myself. like my one wild and precious life. I mean it it it so you're have you're doing this personal work. You're trying to figure out like who is Lindy? You're trying to also like see Lindy as a person and you decide to embark on a kind of classic I'd say um adventure of self-discovery, the great American road trip. Tell me how this road trip factored into into this work you were doing at this part of your life. Yeah. So,

Lindy West: so Ham starts going to see Roya once a month. It gets easier and easier. Eventually, I'm like loving it. I'm like, "Oh my god, I have a whole weekend to myself. I'm going to do whatever I want. I'm going to hang out with my friends. I'm going to watch TV. I'm going to get takeout." Like, it was great. And then he would come back and I'd be like, "Oh my god, I missed you." And he was he missed me and it was so fun.

Anna Martin: This is a big change. This is progress.

Lindy West: it. I honestly like I don't even actually know how to articulate how this happened, but it did. And it and and a lot of it was just that let that process of letting go. It was me letting go of fear and just and having curiosity to see what would happen. And um anyway, so then I get so addicted to that feeling of my time alone,

Lindy West: I'm watching Aam go out and have his journey of self-discovery and I'm like, what's where's my freaking journey? You know, I don't know that I want a boyfriend, but who who am I? You know, I I wanted to spend more time by myself. I felt stifled by routine all of a sudden where routine had always or or being at my being at home kind of cocooned had always been a thing that made me feel safe. And I started to be like, what if there's more to life than this? You know, we'll be right back.

Anna Martin: You said that things started to change when you began to look at Roya and Aam's relationship from a place of curiosity. And it sounds like you're turning that curiosity onto yourself, like what more can I do? H how can I grow? How can I push myself?

Lindy West: Yeah. How how can I what what are some other ways I could be brave? So, I woke up one day and I was like, uh, I gotta go. I was like, I'm going to get I I said, I think I need to rent a van and go on a road trip by myself. And he was like, okay.

Anna Martin: It really just came to you like that in a dream.

Lindy West: Kind of. Yeah. It was very It came to me fully formed. Like I was suddenly like, I got to rent a van and I have to drive to Florida. and I just wanted to set out into the unknown, which is exactly what I was doing inwardly. I also was starting to feel so confined and claustrophobic from having just spent basically two years non-stop working on my marriage and having everything be about my relationship. And I was like, I really, really wanted to spend some intensive time on my relationship with myself. I was like, can't we just live for a while?

Anna Martin: What about me for once? Yeah.

Lindy West: What about me for once? And so I I just wanted to go.

Anna Martin: Was this something that I don't know, Lindy of 5 years prior would ever conceive of herself doing?

Lindy West: No. No. Absolutely not. Lindy of five years prior was desperate for a ham to do activities with her. I just would never and I would have been scared to leave him home alone. Like who, you know, is he going to fall in love with someone else while I'm gone? And what am I going to do?

Anna Martin: Well, that's my question. That's my question because a road trip sounds amazing, but it also does give Aam and Roya a lot of time to be together alone. Did that cross your mind?

Lindy West: I'm sure it crossed my mind, but I didn't care because I was so hyperfocused on this thing that I wanted to do. And because I I had made a lot of progress, I was like, great, spend time with Royal when I'm gone. That I don't

Anna Martin: very powerful.

Lindy West: Yeah, it did feel powerful. And I don't want it to sound like I'm sort of rationalizing how to do non-monogamy or not rationalizing like convincing myself to do it because Aam wants to do it at the beginning. Absolutely. I was doing that. By this point, when we've already been doing it and he's going away and I'm feeling this freedom and and lightness and openness, I'm starting to be like, "This is better." For me, it's nice to have uh a husband break sometimes.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah.

Lindy West: You know, like I it actually feels very true to me at this point that one person shouldn't be your whole life. And that doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship with other people or whatever, but you should be in a relationship with yourself for sure. And this isn't me convincing myself to do something that AM wanted to do. At this point, I really I really liked it and I was curious to explore it more.

Anna Martin: What's your contact like with a ham while you're on the road?

Lindy West: Contact is, I would say, sporadic but intense. But a kind of pivotal thing happened right before I left where Aam and I had like a little date, like little getaway. We went and stayed at a hotel for a night and it was really fun and and like romantic and cute. And that night was the first time I was like, "Tell me about Roya." like in more detail like but you know he just described her and I just let it not scare me. Um and then I was like what does Roy think about me and he was like well she has a crush on you and I was like excuse me and this was before you went on the road trip. You you were told that she had a crush well.

Anna Martin: And let's just say there's nothing more electric than finding out someone has a crush on you. Am I right? I mean it's just it it's it's like the greatest gift in the world besides I don't know like commitment or love or whatever. I mean, it's just it's like, how did that make you feel?

Lindy West: It it it was very powerful. I was immediately like, "Oh, I I like her a lot more all of a sudden."

Anna Martin: See, and that's what I was going to say. There's no more surefire way to like someone more than figuring out that they like you. It's like,

Lindy West: you're awesome. Yeah. Mhm.

Anna Martin: I was like, exactly. I was like, wow, she sounds pretty cool. And I was like, "Yeah, it definitely." And that's it's so funny because it's what a narcissistic response to be like, "Well, I like her all of a sudden."

Lindy West: I mean, that's just the human condition. Also,

Anna Martin: yeah,

Lindy West: it's it's normal. It makes sense. I don't know if I have a crush on her, but

Anna Martin: yeah, like that. I mean, no, I think that's a really that's it's a really important dynamic shift actually, you know, because we talked before about how, you know, sort of nameless, faceless person that Aam was dating was threat level 100 for you, right? And now, you know, I mean, so much has already changed, but like to introduce this idea at least, you know, in one direction of attraction of a crush. I mean, that that changes this from threat to potentially desire or at least connection. And that feels

Lindy West: Yeah,

Anna Martin: that feels like something.

Lindy West: And it it was honestly the first time in like a year that I felt, I think, totally calm. Whoa. you know,

Lindy West: cuz she had just been this big cloud of mystery and suspicion, and I was like, how do I know that she's not trying to get rid of me so that you guys can be together? And she's out there somewhere. She's not out there thinking the vile stuff that is happening in my head. You know what I mean? She's out there thinking, "Oh, Lindy's beautiful. I and she seems so smart and interesting. I would love to get to know Lindy. And I I'm processing my changing feelings about Roya while I'm on the road trip texting with a Ham, talking to him on the phone and being like, how do I even describe it? Um, cuz what's really happening is that I'm talking to A and being like, tell me more about Roya having a crush on me. Like, I'm like kind of fixated on this idea.

Anna Martin: Yeah. and I can't get it out of my head. And I'm like,

Lindy West: uh, you know, I start to get really curious like, what are you guys doing? Who are you? Are you hanging out with any of our friends? Are you going to our favorite restaurants? What are you eating? Where are you staying? What's happening? You know, I I just had this very organic fixation on kind of knowing what was what was up

Anna Martin: in like a sexy way or in like a surveillance way.

Lindy West: in like not a surveillance way.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Lindy West: I I I'm not going to go so far as to say a sexy way.

Anna Martin: Sure. Sure.

Lindy West: But it was like a neutral way or just a just a

Anna Martin: just a curious way. Like

Lindy West: I get it.

Lindy West: You know, I just was like, "What's up over there?"

Anna Martin: Yeah. Yeah. And not feeling threatened by it. It sounds like curious, not threatened.

Lindy West: And and I think I started to feel so soothed by I got it's like I got addicted to that feeling of safety and I wanted to keep doing it, you know? Do you know what I mean? Like I liked the feeling of not having a stab of panic when a brought up Roya's name because I had been in this fear state for like a year

Lindy West: that someone was going to take my life away. And I was like all of a sudden I wasn't having that anymore. And I was like, what is this new place I want to stay here where I feel suddenly I feel nothing and not necessarily nothing like nothing with a hint of something nice.

Anna Martin: Yeah. I mean, it's it's this like triumphant nothing.

Lindy West: You know what I mean? It's like and I and I you know, the circumstances of Aam and Roya's relationship haven't changed. If anything, they've intensified and and you're more clued in than ever before. And you're farther away than ever before, right? So the safety you feel, that's you. I mean, you've created that safety. No.

Anna Martin: Yes. Absolutely.

Lindy West: And that's why it was different, I think. So the trip continues and in my recollection, I'm talking to a more and more about Roya. And I I don't remember specifically. And I bought a phone that has like no storage on it, so all my texts are gone, so I can't look back, unfortunately. But I believe what happened was this. I bet Aam sent me like a sexy underwear pick of Roya with her consent because I I think they were talking about me also because that's if you want to get me if you say we've been talking about you. Oh boy.

Anna Martin: In a good way. In a good way. In a good way. Yes. Yeah.

Lindy West: Yeah. Oh, I cuz I definitely remember him saying like Roy and I have been talking about you a lot. So I I I'm sure he sent me like a cute pic of Roya

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Lindy West: being cute and I was like, "Okay, you can tell her that that's a beautiful photo or whatever. I'm such I'm such a dork." You may tell her that that is a beautiful photo. Like,

Anna Martin: it's a way to sex. It's formal, but I'd say it works. Yeah.

Lindy West: I I Yeah. Side note, Lindy West absolutely incapable of sexing, but um so then I'm like also throughout this I'm reconnecting with a ham, I think, in in certain ways, too. Like it's fun to have like a long-distance boyfriend that you can have flirty texts with. Like every part of of separating myself from my old life and spending time alone is more fun and has kind of a new life and a new flavor. You know what I mean? Like

Anna Martin: that rocks.

Lindy West: I know. It's like so AA and I are flirting. I'm asking about Roya. We're having like sexy text. It's cute. And then I was like, I think I was feeling sexy for once ever in my life. And I took like a cute picture in my underwear cuz also I'm bored. I'm just alone every day all day in a van driving through Arkansas, whatever. So I sent a cute picture in my underpants and I was like and I was like, I think you could show this to Roya if you want. And then he did. And then he was like, "Roya wants to know if she can text you about your picture." And I said, "Okay." And then she was like, And then she texted me and was like, "Uh, send me a beautiful picture of you. You look so sexy." Whatever. And I was like,

Anna Martin: you like fire react. I

Lindy West: Yeah. I I was like, "What am I doing this?" And I knew that this was crazy. What am I doing? This is a crazy thing to be doing.

Anna Martin: Why? What? What's

Lindy West: Oh, well, I mean, I shouldn't say crazy.

Anna Martin: No, no, no. It's not even that I'm quibbling with the word. I'm just like,

Lindy West: no, I know. I know. Yeah. Um,

Anna Martin: just a just an unlikely thing to have happen

Lindy West: for you. For you. For you. Because it's it's what? It's it's brave. It's provocative. Like, why? Yeah, I am not brave in I'm brave in certain ways and many ways I am not brave and this is one of the ways in which I am not brave. I'm not I I I sexually Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. And also um just in I think that I make myself really vulnerable in my writing because actually I have a hard time being vulnerable in certain ways. So it's like a decoy. Like it's like, "Oo, look how vulnerable I am over here about these things that I don't actually feel that vulnerable about.

Anna Martin: Yeah. That I'm willing to share." Yeah.

Lindy West: Right. And so then people I get all this credit for being like so brave and vulnerable, but really I'm like very tightly tight tightly wound and and afraid and private. I'm very very very private. And so to open up to a new person and I do and I have weird baggage around sex and I and I as I've mentioned many times like I really am afraid of the way people perceive my body. I don't I I I I have been conditioned to believe that viewing my body is a nightmare. Like I don't want and I feel safe with Aam because we've been together 10 years. I know that he loves me and he's seen my body, you know, in my 20s, 30s, and 40s, but it was it's just like my my biggest scariest chasm that I that I don't cross.

Lindy West: And but I but it felt so in keeping with the road trip itself, like I was like, who [ __ ] cares? Oh my god, can I just live and just do something impulsive that feels right to me in this moment and not think everything to death? And um and why do other people get to have vibrant, curious, exciting sex lives and romantic lives and connections with other people and I deny myself that? Why do I just hide all the time? And uh why don't I just let myself live and just see what happens? And so I so I did.

Anna Martin: This is I am so charmed by that. And also, it just feels like some of the most reflective um pre sexy pick thoughts maybe someone's ever had, you know, like when I'm sending like a cute pic, I'm like, I look good. Ship it. You know what I mean? And you're like,

Lindy West: um, what type of person am I? Yeah.

Anna Martin: Existential spiral.

Anna Martin: All right. So, you you have this you have this I mean, reckoning is over there, but it's like you send this thing. So what now? It's like, okay, so we've all shared sexy pics with each other. Dot dot dot.

Lindy West: I think it becomes clear that the next thing we need to do is like hop on a call and like discuss what the heck is going on.

Anna Martin: And so I'm driving through Kentucky. Aam and Roya sent me they were having a a very terrifying heat wave in Seattle. It was like 111 degrees in Seattle. Oh my god.

Lindy West: Here's what I remember. I stopped for gas. I stepped out of the van. Kentucky was like a sauna. Like my glasses immediately fogged up. I'm sweating instantly. It's a nightmare. I'm pumping the gas. I look at my phone. There's like a a selfie from A and Roya sitting at a bar in Seattle. And I went to a Marriott and then Aam and Roya video called me and then I was like, "Are you guys okay? Are you are you dying of heat stroke?" Like it

Anna Martin: was hot

Lindy West: hot temperature or hot sexually.

Anna Martin: Well, that I know it's hot in Kentucky and Seattle at this point. No. Was it hot like sexually? Yeah. Were you turned on?

Lindy West: Yeah, it I think so. Yeah, there was like definitely incredible tension in the air. You know, it was LIKE I think I think all of us were like, "Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god." Um, and a and also I don't want to make it sound easy because also there's still the part of me that's terrified. And this is the first time I'm confronted with like seeing the two of them together and I'm away and they're together and you know they're like entwined sitting at at the bar um in the air conditioning and and and so it's like inside me are two wolves. One is having the time of her life and is like so electrified by this. And the other one is is definitely um terrified and you know my my intrusive thoughts were working overtime being like this isn't real. They don't really want you. Look how he likes Look how much he likes her more than he likes you. Look how affectionate he is with her. You know what I mean? Like all the all the meanest stuff that my brain can come up with is running on a little loop in the back, you know? And then I'm using my new skills to sort of let them pass through and stay in the moment with what's actually happening in front of me, which is that I'm feeling really connected with this person who's beautiful and sweet and kind and funny and smart and and who who loves a ham and I love a ham and Yeah. I don't know. It it was a very complicated video call

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Lindy West: but also fun and I and I

Anna Martin: but also fun

Lindy West: and it's not it's like all this stuff is happening under the hood but then also in the in the present moment of that call it's C can I ask you like you're feeling attracted to Roya sex actually it sounds like

Anna Martin: yes for sure

Lindy West: had you been attracted to women in the past

Anna Martin: I mean kind of idally not like professionally you minor league. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindy West: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I feel like um I think maybe I thought everyone has some default baseline attraction to women cuz women are obviously the best and they're like pretty and

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Lindy West: So, I think I just was like, well, who doesn't kind of like women, right?

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Lindy West: Everyone. So, uh, I I never I don't think I interrogated that much my um I I knew that I was sort of mostly straight, but also but also I didn't really care that much. I was like, "Yeah, sure." I mean,

Anna Martin: yeah.

Lindy West: Who's into me? What's What's going on out there?

Anna Martin: Who has a crush on me? Raise your hand if you ever crush on me. Stay with us.

Anna Martin: Eventually the trip has to end after a month. When you came back to Seattle, was Roya there?

Lindy West: No. She wasn't there. But I got back on July 7th or 8th and Aam's birthday is July 30th. And Aam had a show on his birthday. He's a musician.

Lindy West: And so I think I suggested, why doesn't Roya come up to Seattle for your birthday show? And then

Anna Martin: and he was like,

Lindy West: we'll see what happens. Oh, he was like

Lindy West: Yeah. I mean, I was like, I don't know. I don't know what's going to you know, maybe I'll meet her again and and I'll I'll be like, "No, I'm I don't think so. I'm not I can't I'm not into I'm not into this." Whatever. I didn't know what was going to happen, but I But we were still like we the group chat was popping off this whole time.

Anna Martin: Okay.

Lindy West: So, I was pretty sure that I was going to like Roya in person, but I didn't know.

Anna Martin: Sure.

Lindy West: And um so she came up to Seattle. I picked her up at the train station. Ah was like at soundcheck. I went by myself to pick her up. Also my idea, I think. And I was like, she was instantly captivating. Like she was just so pretty and so sunny and smiley and cool.

Anna Martin: sunny for a goth.

Lindy West: I know. She's like a little sunshine goth. It's like it's a a new new kind of person just dropped.

Anna Martin: Sunshine goth. And um

Lindy West: make that a brand that really soon. It's going to be stolen. And then um and then we went to the show and it was fun and like Roya and I stood together and like held hands and she didn't know anyone there and there were all these people from me and Aam's life and I introduced her to all these people.

Anna Martin: How did you introduce her? This is my friend Roya. This is Aam's girlfriend Roya.

Lindy West: I don't I don't remember. I think maybe I just was like this is Roya.

Anna Martin: That feels easier. Yeah. Uhhuh.

Lindy West: It's a really good question. I'm not sure.

Lindy West: Yeah. But then um but we were like holding hands, you know, we were definitely obviously doing something.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Lindy West: Then we went to a bar and after the show and Roy and I were sitting next to each other talking and then some drunk guy came up and like grabbed her arm and was like, "Oh, cool tattoo." What? you know, and did that disgusting man thing of like a woman having tattoos means that you can touch her. And he grabbed her and I was like, I'm going to [ __ ] kill that guy. Like I had this protective feeling of like, don't you [ __ ] touch her. Like what the [ __ ] is wrong? Like I I wanted to like fight this man. And I stood up and I was like, we're fine. Thank Like I like kind of like bodied him away from us.

Anna Martin: What did what did that to me? This is what I'm hearing you say this night. Was you realizing like, "Oh, it's on and I want this."

Lindy West: Yes. Like, you know, I of course I might have done that for any, you know, friend of mine. But the feeling I had was like, that's my girlfriend, you know, like don't touch her. Why would you think you can just touch her? Um Yeah. Yeah. And then we went to the hotel and we had sex and it was really fun.

Anna Martin: The three of you or just the two of you?

Lindy West: The three of us. And it was really fun and hot. And then but I'm skipping over that cuz I don't like to talk about sex. And then and then the cutest part of the night is like I don't know. um has insomnia and is like never asleep, but just like Roya and I like Roya like fell asleep in my arms and we slept the whole night and I was like why was this so comfortable, you know? Why this was so like sweet and peaceful and easy and and and safe.

Anna Martin: I get it though. Yeah,

Lindy West: I don't sleeping in a bed with a new person and don't get me started on three people in a bed. Too many people for a bed. But even so, this first night, like you slept well

Lindy West: and it felt like it just felt like a a sign of something being right.

Anna Martin: In 2022, you Aam and Roya sort of publicly announce what's happening in your relationship. Can you tell me about that?

Lindy West: So, by early 2022, we were a romantic triad.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Lindy West: We didn't really know how to launch cuz it feels like you shouldn't have to like it felt intrusive and stressful and I felt resentful about it. I didn't want to have to I don't know like what why do I have to explain my life to people? But, you know, it really was eye opening to me how angry people are about non-monogamy. Um, and I think it's because everyone thinks that if it becomes normalized, then their husband is going to say, "Now I need to have a girlfriend."

Anna Martin: And I just want to say that you don't have to do that,

Lindy West: right? It would be optional if it were to become the the law of the land or whatever.

Anna Martin: Yeah. It look, I I wasn't looking for it. Uh but it found me and um so I I relate cuz I I too had that fear and it came true except what I found on the other side was a way better life than before.

Lindy West: Just way for for me.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Lindy West: I I just feel so much more freedom for myself. I have two people who love me instead of one. You know, it occurred to me that maybe I I don't know about Roya because she's very stable, but I think Aam and I both as um erratic artists, both of us may be a twoman job, you know, like I think like it's nice to have another person to help me love a ham and I know that I also need a lot of love and validation and support, you know, and it's just really really just three people that live in a house instead of two and we like all help with the dishes.

Anna Martin: That sounds kind of nice.

Lindy West: Yes. So, we're all three together still and now it's 2020 six and it really started like as soon as I got back from

Anna Martin: Wow.

Lindy West: my road trip. Um, and basically started on Aam's birthday. So, we're we're we're into year five.

Anna Martin: Amazing. Congratulations.

Lindy West: Thank you.

Anna Martin: Earlier on in our at the beginning of our conversation, actually, when I asked you, you and Aham had just gotten married, and I was like, "What future did you want?" And you described that you were looking forward to a sort of classic marriage. How do you feel about that now?

Lindy West: I feel like I customized my life to something that is the thing that I want and and and swapped that in. You know, I I don't want to chase an ideal that someone else made up. It really that's what this feels like to me. It feels like I I customized it. a customized marriage to to the specifications that are fun and fulfilling to me. So, I I don't really think about it anymore. And it just like feels like things found their way to where we needed to be. And no, no, that's to so passive. We worked really hard and created the life that we wanted.

Anna Martin: Lindy West. My goodness. Thank you so much for this conversation.

Lindy West: Oh my god, thank you. This was so fun.

Anna Martin: Lindy West's book, Adult Braces: Driving Myself Sane, comes out on March 10th. The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Alisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poant, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poant. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez and we had studio support from Nick Pitman. Original music in this episode by Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Roman Neist, and Dan Powell. Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.