Michael Barbaro: From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today marks the sixth day of an unusual government shutdown in which Democrats have withheld funding to a single federal agency, the Department of Homeland Security, in order to force President Trump to change how thousands of its agents enforce immigration laws. Today, my conversation with an unlikely leader of the Democratic strategy, Senator Katherine Cortez Masto of Nevada. It's Thursday, February 19th.

Michael Barbaro: Senator,

Katherine Cortez Masto: Hello. How are you? Good morning.

Michael Barbaro: It's Michael Barbaro.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Michael, how I recognize a voice. How are you?

Michael Barbaro: Oh, that's flattering. Thank you for making time for us.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and by the way, thank you for the great reporting you do. Seriously, it's important. Yeah.

Michael Barbaro: You are, as we speak, in Nevada, correct?

Katherine Cortez Masto: Not in Washington DC because Congress is on a somewhat illtimed recess.

Michael Barbaro: That's right.

Katherine Cortez Masto: And I said illtimed because we're in the middle of a partial government shutdown. And I want to talk about your role in that. We tend, Senator, to think of the lawmakers who become the face of a government shutdown or one of the faces of it as a particular kind of lawmaker, a fire brand, a rabble rouser, pick your adjective. You are pretty distinctly not that. Does that seem fair? I

Katherine Cortez Masto: I would agree that I'm a moderate. That's to me those are the moderates are are people who are working to get things done, right? Who work in a bipartisan way who think that good government is important that we still have to work together to do our jobs. We still have to deliver for the American public whether it's in our state where we live or across the country. And I think most people, at least when I'm in my state, they expect that. They expect you to not only work on their behalf, but work in a bipartisan way. But they also know that there are times and I think it's okay to be out there and pick that fight and say no, this is a battle I'm going to be very vocal about. This is one I am going to stand up and say this can occur. And you see that not I've done that and you will see that for many moderates across the country doing the same thing. Well, the last time there was a government shutdown, you opposed it. I think you voted against it something like 15 times. And so I don't tend to think of you as a shutdown person.

Michael Barbaro: I see what you're saying. Yeah. So, let

Katherine Cortez Masto: me just say this. For me, there's nothing wrong with calling out an administration, I don't care what party you are, that's hurting our community, that is challenging our very norms, particularly around, in this case, law and order. They need to be challenged and they need to be called out.

Michael Barbaro: Well, that's what we want to talk about, how you got to this point where you decided to support withholding funding from the Department of Homeland Security. And I think it stands out that you have joined this effort because of your background in law enforcement. You're a former attorney general in the state. You have very strong set of relationships with law enforcement, which I'm sure we're going to be talking about in this conversation. DHS, the Department of Homeland Security is a major law enforcement agency and you have decided that funding should be withheld from it over the way it has approached immigration enforcement and I want to talk about how given your background you got to that point. So tell us that story. Where does it begin over the past year or so?

Katherine Cortez Masto: So let me give you some background. Most people don't know. Most of my career has been in law enforcement. Quite honestly when Homeland Security was created I was working in the US Attorney's Office in Washington DC as a federal prosecutor and my husband was a Secret Service agent.

Michael Barbaro: Wow. So you're both in law enforcement.

Katherine Cortez Masto: That's right. And I continued that work. Became attorney general here in the state of Nevada. Did that for eight years. Worked with law enforcement, with prosecutors my entire career and understand the benefits and what we are trying to achieve when we keep our community safe around community policing. If you're effective law enforcement agency, you're going to get in the community and build that public trust. That's what it's about. You want to go after the violent criminals. You want to hold them accountable, but you also want to protect individuals constitutional rights because it's about keeping your community safe. Now comes along this administration and they have all of this money the Republicans have given them in their tax bill,

Michael Barbaro: Right? The one big beautiful bill as he calls it. Yep.

Katherine Cortez Masto: The one big beautiful bill. Republicans give them about $170 billion altogether and that's $75 billion going to ICE which the normal annual budget for ICE is anywhere about 8 to 10 billion. There's no strings attached. No strings attached. And what we are seeing now is because they have all this money and because they had this quota from Steven Miller to do 3,000 immigration deportations and detainments a day, they started onboarding whoever they could to work at ICE, right?

Michael Barbaro: And not only were they onboarding them very quickly, they lowered their standards for hiring them and they decreased the training that most law enforcement go through as they're looking to do community policing. Right? Deescalation standards, use of force standards, none of that.

Katherine Cortez Masto: So, you become unsettled just from recognizing that there's a sudden hiring binge and that the standards are changing and that the training in your mind is insufficient. This is back many months ago. So, that's your first set of concerns. How do those evolve over time?

Katherine Cortez Masto: So then as we are seeing in communities, this administration unfortunately wasn't about public safety. Even though Donald Trump was talking about going after violent criminals, which listen, I think we all, everybody in the community, I don't care where you live, you want violent criminals out of your communities. You want your community safe. You want to know that when you call 911 and you have concerns, police officers are going to respond. They're going to keep you safe, respect your rights, but go after those violent criminals. What we were seeing, however, is just the opposite. Now they're sending in to our communities numbers of agents that normally were not assigned in those communities.

Michael Barbaro: This deportation force of excessive force and they are coming into communities and they are just roving patrols which we've never seen before. Roving patrols. They are knocking on doors. They are not even knocking. Half the time they're going in and without a judicial warrant. They're pulling people out of their cars. They are following people, I know this because this happened in Las Vegas,

Katherine Cortez Masto: following people with masks home from church.

Michael Barbaro: Following people home from church in your state,

Katherine Cortez Masto: home from church in my state. And I talk to law enforcement all the time. I also know that during this period of time they actually went after some of my local law enforcement police officers went after their families and threatened.

Michael Barbaro: I just want to slow down and understand this. You found evidence that immigration enforcement agents were pursuing the families of local law enforcement.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Correct. Correct.

Michael Barbaro: Was it because of their immigration status?

Katherine Cortez Masto: It was because of their immigration status that they had been in Nevada for a long period of time. They were not violent criminals, but they had been working, paying taxes, raising their family, and they were going after these individuals. And they were threatening the careers of these law enforcement officers that their families. That tells me they're out of control. That tells me there is another reason why they're coming into our communities. It wasn't about going after the most the violent criminals. It was much more heinous and it was not at the level that we saw in Chicago or Minneapolis, but it is happening.

Michael Barbaro: And what you're describing, this is all happening before Minneapolis.

Katherine Cortez Masto: That's correct. And then we see what plays out in Minneapolis when they send that police force in. A national police force that this administration wants to create to just come in and brutalize communities and scare people under the guise of some sort of immigration enforcement. And

Michael Barbaro: a national police force that's brutalizing I mean that those are some very loaded phrases. I just want to make sure I'm understanding them.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Yeah. No, please. Because I think that is absolutely correct. They are going after peaceful protesters. Killing peaceful protesters who are outraged that they're coming into their communities and actually not even going after violent criminals and they're violating individuals rights. They are detaining and deporting US citizens. They are using their administrative warrants to go into people's private properties. They have violated the first amendment, the second amendment, the fourth amendment, the fifth amendment, the 10th amendment of our constitution. That's what this administration is doing. So yes, it demands action.

Michael Barbaro: And so in your mind, given your background in law enforcement, this is not how law enforcement is is supposed to be operating. And in mid January, you you do something about it. And you introduce a piece of legislation about ICE that would divert much of this money that we're talking about that came from the one big beautiful bill that was designated for things like ICE and divert it to local law enforcement.

Katherine Cortez Masto: They have too much money that $75 billion in ICE. Too much. So let's take it away. Let's let's let's divert it to local law enforcement and state law enforcement who are trained to work in our communities, who know how to manage a protest or even pull somebody over in the car without violating their constitutional rights. It's the same I I hear it and see it in my community. Same conversation that you saw from the police chief in Minneapolis saying the same thing, right? It's just common sense. We had him on the show.

Katherine Cortez Masto: because I also know working and talking to my local police chiefs and sheriffs that not only are they understaffed, but when when this deportation force comes into their communities, they are then overwhelmed. And part of this is if we are really working to keep our communities safe, let's trust those agencies that are trained to do it, right?

Michael Barbaro: and take the money away from these ICE agents who clearly not only are not trained, they don't care to be trained and they don't care that they're violating and harming individuals and or killing them. And Republicans don't embrace this proposal you have and you and your colleagues decide that something else has to be done given that and what you all come up with is to use your power of the purse, your role as the minority in the Senate to hold up funding for DHS in a spending bill unless you get a series of reforms within DHS. Pass. And I want to quickly summarize those reforms that you all ask for. You ask for there to be warrants when these agents come to make arrests or to go to a house or a business. You ask that agents IDs be visible. You ask that they no longer wear masks. And I wonder why you all decide that those are the reforms that if you don't get, you will hold up DHS funding. How you arrive at that negotiation tactic essentially?

Katherine Cortez Masto: Yeah, I can tell you very clearly from my background in working with law enforcement, those are common sense practices that our local law enforcement engage in every day.

Michael Barbaro: to keep our community safe. That's why.

Katherine Cortez Masto: And so a lot of the the policies and protocols that we had developed in the Democratic asks were just common sense policies that our local law enforcement and and state officers were already doing.

Michael Barbaro: that you now want federal immigration agents to use as well.

Katherine Cortez Masto: That's correct. Why shouldn't they?

Katherine Cortez Masto: So late last week, having not gotten any of these requests granted to you by the administration, by DHS, you and your Democratic colleagues in the Senate, you cast a vote to block funding to the agency. And you know this well because you talked about the previous shutdown over healthcare. Shutdowns involve a lot of pain, a lot of unintended pain. Workers don't get paid, but a lot of them have to work anyway. So services become strained. In the case of DHS, that means services like airport security, TSA, cyber security, FEMA, Coast Guard, and you all have made a decision that you know will probably cause some of that pain. And I want to know why you think it's worth it to do this.

Katherine Cortez Masto: If we do not stand up against this lawlessness that we see this administration engaging in in our communities, then what is left for us? If you carry out to the logical conclusion that this administration has created their own police force, that they're made up of individuals who don't follow normal protocols that police follow to keep our communities safe, and they're doing just the opposite. And they're sending them out under the guise of immigration enforcement. What's next for them?

Michael Barbaro: And the concern is the next is they're going to bring them out around our election process. They're going to try to claim the election is

Katherine Cortez Masto: that's what you fear is next.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Absolutely. It's the logical conclusion that you see happening. This administration is using this police force to do its bidding. Listen, I never thought that I would see the day where immigration agents that I worked with in the past at a federal level would be engaging in the brutality that they're doing now.

Michael Barbaro: Well, Senator, we're going to take a break and when we come back, I want to engage with the challenges that Democrats, including you, may face in explaining what this shutdown is and what it isn't to the public. We'll be right back.

Michael Barbaro: Senator, I want to turn now to a fundamental challenge for you and your party when it comes to this shutdown of DHS. You've made clear that you see this as a question of what good law enforcement is and what it isn't and that right now immigration enforcement operations represent bad law enforcement to you. But to some meaningful percentage of voters, this could end up looking like something else, which is potentially Democrats being weak on immigration. How do you respond to that?

Katherine Cortez Masto: Well, I think traditionally I have seen that the Democrats are weak on immigration under the last administration under we have seen that.

Michael Barbaro: full full stop. I mean, you're conceding that.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Yeah. Well, absolutely. Because this has been my challenge. I know as somebody who has worked in this space, we can do both. We can secure our borders. We can address the human trafficking, the drug trafficking, weapons trafficking that's happening at the border. I know because as attorney general, I worked on it. I'm not a border state, but I'm close enough that I work with the Mexican AGs on these very issues. We can work to secure it, fund it, and at the same time have an immigration process that is treats people with respect, who want to come to this country, who have been playing by the rules, who have actually contributed to our communities and paying taxes and raising their families. We can do both. But I have seen Democrats shy away from that. They don't talk about the balance between the two. And I I watched as the last administration under Biden was too afraid to talk about securing the border. So it's just to me this is common sense. This is where most of the at least in Nevada and I see most of the country. This is how they think. Americans aren't stupid. They can see both sides of it and want both sides of it.

Michael Barbaro: But by defunding the agency that oversees immigration enforcement, including at the border, how do you avoid the perception that you are making that work, which as you just acknowledged, Democrats are not known for being effective enough at? How do you avoid making that work harder or and less effective?

Katherine Cortez Masto: So what my ask is and what I've been talking about with my colleagues and this is where Democrats need to be aligned is that we are not saying completely defund ICE.

Michael Barbaro: What we are saying is fund them to the level they traditionally were so that we are securing our borders.

Katherine Cortez Masto: and we are also working in our communities with local law enforcement to go after the violent criminals under the immigration jurisdiction that they have that they've traditionally done. So, this isn't a defunding ICE or CBP. It's just let's give them the funding they need to actually operate under the traditional jurisdiction to help keep our communities safe and work with local law enforcement.

Michael Barbaro: Right. And it's you're saying don't don't overfund them. But in making the argument you're making, you're you're drawing an interesting distinction. You're suggesting that many voters want and expect a certain conduct from immigration enforcement agents and that they want enforcement to be focused on criminals. We've talked to plenty of people on this show and from what you said, you're you're a listener, voters who want interior enforcement based on the fact that they believe illegally crossing the border into the US itself is a crime. And so in making the distinctions that you are, are you in a certain sense potentially creating an incentive? The incentive that that Democrats have been criticized for creating which is you can come to the United States, you can come illegally and you can stay.

Michael Barbaro: and isn't that what President Trump won his election in part based on?

Katherine Cortez Masto: Yeah. No, here here let me just put a finer point on this. I do think there is a role for Congress when it comes to our immigration laws, right? Yes, we we have to have a process for people to come here. Yes, we want to make sure they move through that process. Congress has failed to do its job and update the laws and that's what we should be doing. But let me just say, Michael, people play politics with this all the time.

Katherine Cortez Masto: and it is an issue to me that is so frustrating. People, Republicans, Democrats, it's all politics to them. It is not about how we move our country forward with individuals who want to work hard, be a part of our community, and have shown that and raise their families. I am a US senator because my grandfather came from Chihuahua, Mexico, and then he served in the US Army and became a US citizen. Now, why should my story be any different than any other person who comes to this country and wants the same opportunities for their for their kids and their grandchildren? That's what this is about. But when the Trump administration and Steven Miller decide that all immigrants are horrific and the rapists and they're killers and we don't want any immigrant here, that is wrong. And it goes against our laws in this country and who we are. And to me, this is a failing on Congress. This is a failing on my Republican colleagues who refuse to come to the table and work with us on to address this and instead would rather play politics with this to win elections.

Michael Barbaro: How confident are you that the position you're articulating here is where most Americans are? And I asked that because I have some inside information from my colleagues in the newsroom in the Washington bureau who saw a memo that you circulated to some of your colleagues in the Democratic caucus of the Senate making the case that there is a right way to talk about this that involves both criticizing immigration enforcement as it currently exists while also establishing some firm understandings about what is wrong with illegal immigration and and where enforcement needs to be very tough.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Yeah, you're right. We I have been working as part of the what we call the mod squad, moderate senators to ensure that the states that we come from, which are swing states like Nevada, where there is a diverse group of people living there, including in in terms of party affiliation, Democrats, Republicans, nonpartisans in equal numbers. These are the the individuals that are going to make the difference in whether or not Democrats are going to be in control of the Senate. Mhm.

Katherine Cortez Masto: That's how we win the Senate back. And if we are going to appeal to them and talk to them and listen to them, we have to understand what they care about. And the polling that you're referring to is a polling of just those swing states and who those voters are. And you're absolutely right. They want safe communities. But they also are demanding what they are seeing with ICE. They don't like the over excessive abuse of ICE. They want ICE to focus on the violent criminals. And they want to know that people are working to help keep their communities safe from those violent criminals, the worst of the worst.

Michael Barbaro: Okay? So, they want an effective, this polling shows that voters want an effective ICE that follows the rules, but that does its job, particularly when it comes to detaining, deporting criminal immigrants who are here illegally.

Katherine Cortez Masto: That's right. And that's and that's what I say is is our conversation with them is yes, we've got to get them back to the time where we do this where we allow the system to work to go after and find individuals that are the worst of the worst, the most violent. We also hold people accountable to following our immigration laws. That is the traditional role of ICE and CBP and that's what many people want and understand. They do not want what they are seeing playing out in front of their very eyes on TV or even in their communities. And quite honestly, that's why they're coming out and protesting. That's why they're using their voices. That's why you see them out there and and they shouldn't be killed for it.

Michael Barbaro: I want to go back to the last shutdown as a point of reference. Leaders of your party like Senator Chuck Schumer, they believe that ultimately that shutdown, which you didn't support, but it sounds like you gained some valuable lessons from that that was a political victory in the way that it elevated the issue of rising healthcare costs and put it on Republicans. But even as a victory politically, it did not result in policy changes. If this shutdown of DHS becomes something like that, a messaging win without policy changes that you're asking for, would you be satisfied with that?

Katherine Cortez Masto: Yes. Because here's why.

Michael Barbaro: You would be

Katherine Cortez Masto: because here here's why. At the end of the day, this is about an administration who is out of control. And if they are not willing to even compromise or work with us on addressing what the American public sees with this ICE agency, they're not willing to come to work with us to reign them in. There's a problem with that administration.

Katherine Cortez Masto: And the only way at the end of the day for us to get more accountability over this administration is to take control of Congress, is to win in these elections, whether it is in the House or the Senate. We have more oversight role. We have more accountability. We can call them in. We can demand change. We have more control over the appropriations. Right now, what we are seeing in this country is the Republicans in control have abdicated their role in Congress to this administration and doing whatever the bidding of this administration, whatever it wants to do.

Michael Barbaro: So even if you don't win these reforms, you may win the argument. And winning the argument might then mean winning the election. And then you can in your mind change the way this administration operates when it comes to immigration enforcement.

Katherine Cortez Masto: And that's how the process works. That's who who we are as Americans. That's what this is about. That's what this country is. And that's worth fighting for. Whether we win the policy debate or we win the messaging war, the end of the day, it's do we win as a country. Do we win when we say no more to this administration sending these thugs into our communities? And we can do that as a country when we elect and make change.

Michael Barbaro: Let's say for a moment that you do end up getting what you want at some point from the administration. You do end up with some understanding that the masks might come off these agents, that they're going to be using warrants and they're going to be identifying themselves, with badges as they go about their work. Even if you get all that with agencies like ICE and with Border Patrol, given the way they have operated and given the rhetoric from the president, given the conduct that you have described as heinous, I mean, you've called some of these folks thugs. Even if you get these reforms, will these be agencies and agents that you can have faith in? Or is the problem here a lot bigger than tactics and conduct?

Katherine Cortez Masto: That's a fair question and I think the the problem here is a lot bigger. Right. Of course, not only do we want these reforms, but we want to be able to ensure we can enforce the administration to follow these reforms and we have seen in the past a lack of trust from this administration. They say one thing and do another. So it is a valid point and it is something that I not just members of Congress but I think the American public are grappling with and why they are demanding change in the elected leaders and they're demanding and calling out what they are seeing. I think this administration thrives on chaos and uncertainty and constantly moving the goalposts. That's how this president has succeeded in the past. That's how he will continue to operate. But is not how you govern and is not what the American people want.

Michael Barbaro: Senator, how does the shutdown come to an end or does it not come to an end until after the midterms if the administration isn't really going to negotiate?

Katherine Cortez Masto: Yeah, I don't know the pathway. I I can't I don't know. Michael, I can only say at this moment in this time, the changes that we are demanding, it has to occur. We cannot see another community being brutalized by these lawless ICE agents and CBP under this administration. We just cannot.

Michael Barbaro: Well, Senator, thank you very much for your time. We really appreciate it.

Katherine Cortez Masto: Thank you, Michael.

Michael Barbaro: On Wednesday afternoon, Democratic leaders in Congress chastised both President Trump and congressional Republicans for failing to act with urgency to end the shutdown of the Department of Homeland Security. Donald Trump spent the weekend on the golf course with Ronda Santis and so we've not seen any highlevel effort coming from the president or from the House or Senate Republican leaders. We have no idea where they're at in the midst of a crisis of their own making. During a news conference, House Democratic Leader Hakee Jeff said that his party's proposal for ending the shutdown was in the hands of the White House, but that he was still waiting for their response.

Michael Barbaro: ICE needs to be reformed in a dramatic, bold, meaningful, and transformational manner. And if that doesn't happen, the DHS funding bill will not move forward. We'll be right back.

Michael Barbaro: Here's what else you need to know today. California officials said that eight of the nine skiers missing since an avalanche on Tuesday have died. The avalanche now ranks as one of the deadliest in the state's modern history. The skiers were part of a group of 15, including four guides, on a 3-day backcountry expedition near Lake Tahoe. Six of those who were caught in the avalanche were rescued after they used a combination of emergency beacons and their iPhones to share their location. The avalanche occurred after nearly 3 ft of snow had accumulated in the area over a short period.

Michael Barbaro: Today's episode was produced by Mary Wilson and Eric Krupky. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Chris Hackel. Contains music by Alicia Etup and Marian Lozano and was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to Phil Corbett and Nick Pitman.

Michael Barbaro: That's it for The Daily. I'm Mabaro. See you tomorrow.