《纽约时报》首席书评人对谈:2026文学震颤、AI阴影与难读之书的奖赏 New York Times Podcasts 2026-10-16

《纽约时报》首席书评人对谈:2026文学震颤、AI阴影与难读之书的奖赏

关键字 literary-criticism reading-culture generative-ai contemporary-fiction publishing-industry
10 节

书评人的幕后时刻

M.J. 富兰克林: 我是 M.J. 富兰克林(M.J. Franklin),这是来自**《纽约时报》**(The New York Times)的书评播客。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: I'm M.J. Franklin, and this is the Book Review from The New York Times.

M.J. 富兰克林: 今天我们为大家准备了一期特别节目,因为我们将与《纽约时报》的专职书评人展开对谈。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Today, we have a special treat because we are talking with our New York Times staff book critics.

M.J. 富兰克林: 我身边坐着的是——

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: I'm here with

珍妮弗·萨莱: 珍妮弗·萨莱(Jennifer Szalai),我主要负责非虚构类图书的书评。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Jennifer Szalai, and I review nonfiction.

德怀特·加纳: 我是德怀特·加纳(Dwight Garner),我负责虚构类,有时也撰写非虚构类书评。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: And Dwight Garner, I review fiction and sometimes nonfiction.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我是亚历山德拉·雅各布斯(Alexandra Jacobs),我和德怀特一样,只是水平没他那么高。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: And Alexandra Jacobs, I'm the same as Dwight, but not as good.

M.J. 富兰克林: 都是全明星阵容!这正是我今天格外兴奋能与各位畅聊的原因。你们三位是我们的专职书评人,这在当今极具标杆意义,因为放眼整个图书界,你能用一只手就数得清传统意义上的全职专职书评人究竟还剩几位。而其中三位就坐在这间录音室里。你们——

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: All stars, and that is why I am excited to talk to you today. You are our three staff critics, which is notable because in general, in the book world, I think you can probably count on one hand the number of full-time traditional staff book critics. Three of them are in this room. You

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我尽量不去多想这件事,因为那份沉甸甸的压力实在让人吃不消。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: I try not to think about this too much cuz that's too much pressure, and I can't take it.

M.J. 富兰克林: 好吧,压力先抛在脑后,但赞美是少不了的。今天我不仅为此感到兴奋,更因为在读者眼里,你们多多少少带有一层神秘色彩。大家熟悉你们最终交付的成果,熟悉你们发表的每一篇书评,但我们很少能揭开幕布,走进后台,听你们像同行一样切磋手艺、分享那些原生态的思考过程。

对大多数读者而言——其实不仅是书评人,所有普通读者都一样——阅读往往是一件极其孤独的事。因此,能把业内最睿智的读者、最顶尖的作家和思想家聚在一间屋子里畅聊文学,正是我们今天要做的事。

我想先从宏观的维度切入,聊聊2026年的整体气象。你们能否用一个词或一句话来概括今年的图书出版与阅读状态?就当是一次氛围检测(vibe check),以此作为开场白。今年对你们而言,阅读究竟呈现出怎样的底色?珍,你看起来若有所思,那就从你先开始吧。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Well, the pressure is off, but the praise is there. The praise is heaped on. So, I'm excited to talk to you for that reason, but also I'm excited to talk to you because I feel like you're kind of mystery readers. We know the final product. We know the reviews that you put out, but we don't get to peel back the curtain, talk shop, gab as you're thinking, all of that stuff. I think for most readers, not just critics, but most readers, reading can be very solitary. So, to get some of the smartest readers, the smartest writers, the smartest thinkers all together in a room and just talk about books. That's what we're here to do. I want to start simple and broad with the year 2026 overall. Can you give me one word or phrase that summarizes books and reading this year? Think of this as the vibe check, just the opening salvo. What has books reading been like for you this year? Jen, you seem lost in thought, so I'm going to start with you.

2026年度阅读基调

珍妮弗·萨莱: 好的。如果一定要浓缩成一个词或一句话,至少对我来说,今年感觉是一个**“探索求索之年”**(a searching year)。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Okay. You know, to distill it to a word or a phrase, for me at least, it feels like sort of a searching year.

M.J. 富兰克林: 探索之年?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: A searching year?

珍妮弗·萨莱: 是的,探索。正如大家所知,我主要评述非虚构作品,而非虚构必然与我们所生活的真实世界紧密嵌合。试图去弄清楚这个世界究竟变成了什么样、正在发生什么、未来又将走向何方——这是我在最近评述的诸多著作中真切察觉到的特质。所以对我而言,就是这个词。我不确定它是否最为精准,但它确实是第一时间跳入我脑海的字眼。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: year. You know, I write specifically about nonfiction, and nonfiction does connect to the world that we're living in. And just trying to figure out what that world is, what's going on, where it's going. That's what I've noticed in some of the books that I've been writing about. So, for me, that's the word. I'm not sure if it's the right word, but that's the one that came to mind.

M.J. 富兰克林: 这种“求索”给人的感觉是令人兴奋、让人倦怠、显得生硬做作,还是更像一种自然而然的思想演进,映照出我们今年共同的困惑?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Does the searching feel exciting? Does the searching feel tedious? Does the searching feel forced, belabored, or just like a naturalistic evolution of our thinking, of our of our confusion this year?

珍妮弗·萨莱: 我觉得部分原因在于,全世界都在发生翻天覆地的剧变,尤其是这个国家在塑造他国历史进程中所扮演的角色正在经历重构。因此“求索”这个词不断浮现。老实说,我用这个词也许正因为它足够宽泛模糊;我还不敢下断言去盖棺定论。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Yeah, I mean, I think it has to do partly with the fact that so much has transformed all over the world, just in terms of the role that this country plays in shaping other countries' experiences. So, that's the word that comes up, and I I think I use it maybe because it's vague. To [laughter] be honest, that's why I'm using it, cuz I'm not sure I'm ready to pinpoint.

M.J. 富兰克林: 珍是从非虚构的角度出发的。德怀特、亚历山德拉,你们两位既评虚构也评非虚构,你们怎么看?也是“探索之年”吗?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: But, Jen, you mentioned that you're thinking about this because of non-fiction. Dwight, Alexandra, you both review a mix of fiction and non-fiction, but how does that sound to you? Is it a searching year?

德怀特·加纳: 我为今年挑选的词大概是**“狂妄不逊”**(impudent)。就我钟爱的虚构作品而言,今年最打动我的四五部长篇小说和短篇故事集,都带着某种愤怒、机敏与机智,并以极具原创性的方式去硬撼这个世界。它们可以说是全方位辐射的(omnidirectional books),从各个意想不到的角落涌现出来,极难被归拢在同一个标签之下。

我觉得今年对虚构文学而言格外丰收。能活着阅读,并且在这整个期间一直享有医疗保险,我深感幸运。今年我过得非常充实。虽说也读到过一些不合胃口的书,但我对今年涌现的高水准小说感到由衷敬佩。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: The word I would pick for this year is probably impudent. Uh in terms of in terms of the fiction I loved, um you know, I I think the four or five novels and books of stories I loved the most this year were just kind of um angry and smart and witty and took on the world in original ways. I can't really, you know, they're sort of omnidirectional books. They came from all over the place, and it's very hard to put them under one umbrella. I felt this was a particularly good year for for fiction, and um I felt lucky to be alive in reading and have health insurance throughout the entire period. Um I really had a great year, and I um there were some books I I didn't like so much this year, but I um I I'm very impressed with the fiction that came out.

M.J. 富兰克林: “狂妄不逊”(impudent)具体意味着什么?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: What does impudent mean?

德怀特·加纳: 所谓的“不逊”,我是指它略带怒火、机锋毕露、绝不一本正经,拒绝接受任何现成的陈词滥调,对固有成规不抱盲从与敬畏——完全是在褒义层面上的。稍后我们可以细聊具体是哪几本书。甚至在今年最出色的非虚构作品中我也体会到了这种特质。比如读加里·特鲁多(Garry Trudeau,漫画《杜恩斯堡》创作者)的传记,诸如此类的书,你能真切感受到那些伟大、有趣、诙谐的心智,世上还有什么比这更美妙的呢?

英文原文

Dwight Garner: Oh, impudent, I mean, it just um a little bit angry, witty, taking nothing seriously, refusing received notions of anything, respecting nothing, you know, in a good way. And we could talk about the exact books, but I I even felt that way about the best nonfiction this year. I mean, it was great to read Garry Trudeau's biography for example, you know, the creator of Doonesbury, and books like that. You feel these These are just great, interesting, funny minds and and what's better than that?

M.J. 富兰克林: 我很喜欢你刚才脱口而出的那句话:“能活着阅读,真是太幸福了。”

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Um I loved what you just said in the middle of that. You said, "Just happy to be alive and reading."

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 完全同意,我感同身受。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Oh, agreed. I feel the same.

德怀特·加纳: 是的,我常常陷入惊叹。我必须时常提醒自己这一点,因为大家都知道,书评人有时也会陷入低落和职业倦怠。每当那时我就提醒自己:“德怀特,你正在做你这辈子唯一想做的事,那就是读书。你靠读书来维持生计,甚至还有人为此给你发薪水。”我必须时刻记住这份幸运。能够拥有这份职业,我心存感激。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: Yeah, I'm I'm constantly amazed. And I have to remind myself because, you know, book critics uh we get we get down sometimes, too. And then I have to remind myself, well, Dwight, you're doing the one thing that you wanted to do with your life, which was read books. You're getting paid to read books for a living. And um I have to like remember that. I mean, I I feel very lucky to have the job that I have.

M.J. 富兰克林: 说得太棒了,为此干杯!亚历山德拉,你呢?你在寻找哪个词?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Here, here, cheers to that. What about you, Alexandra? What's the word I'm looking for? word?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 这个嘛——就像音乐剧《再见,小鸟》(Bye Bye Birdie)里唱的那样:“蜂鸟,那个词到底是什么?”

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Uh well, like in Bye Bye Birdie, what's the word, hummingbird? [laughter]

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 好吧,感谢我引用了《再见,小鸟》。我会选择**“对立分化”**(oppositional)。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Right. Well, uh thank you for the Bye Bye Birdie citation. I would choose oppositional.

M.J. 富兰克林: 对立?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Oppositional.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 没错。我观察当下虚构文学的走势,明显看到了两极分化的裂变:一极是跨越阶层鸿沟、全景式展现社会复杂肌理的宏大社会小说;另一极则是极其紧缩、节制、专注于内心自省与个体微澜的**“私小说”**。二者径渭分明。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Yes. What I perceive going on in fiction, I'm definitely seeing a sort of split between like the big sort of rich social novel that goes across class lines as opposed to sort of the kind of attenuated spare book of the self that is more internal and whatever. That's that.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 这就是我在小说里看到的格局。介于两者之间的中等体量小说(medium novels)对我来说反倒黯然失色了。真正让我鲠在喉头、久久不能释怀的作品,要么极宏大,要么极精微。

而在非虚构领域谈及“对立”,我非常认同德怀特的观点:愤怒。字里行间涌动着一种挑衅与反叛。今年出现了一些挑衅色彩极浓厚的大部头非虚构,甚至像阿里·伊曼纽尔(Ari Emanuel)的名字立刻跃入我脑海。那真是一篇檄文式宣言,仿佛在呐喊:“你知道吗?愤怒是好事,是时候爆发愤怒了。”

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: That's what I saw in in fiction. Uh and the medium novels for me kind of fell away. And it just the things that really stuck in my craw or whatever, whatever non-cliche thing that is not a craw, uh were the big ones and the little ones, you know? And then when I say oppositional in nonfiction, yes, I agree with Dwight. Angry. There's a defiance. There are sort of like defiant large nonfiction books or even just the Ari Emanuels popping into my head. You know, it was really like I as I called it a manifesto, it was it was like, "You know what? Anger's good. Time to be angry."

AI阴影下的文学与语言重塑

M.J. 富兰克林: 在我们刚才谈到的这些氛围与感受中,是否有某种特质是独属于2026年的?它是否具有某种时代专属的特殊性?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Is there anything, though, out of all of what we've just said, out of this vibe, that feels specific or unique or different to 2026?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 人工智能。AI投下的巨大阴影。这让我想起查克·克洛斯特曼(Chuck Klosterman)在写90年代时提到的景象:互联网呼啸而来,已近在眼前。如今人工智能正是如此。而世上又有什么事物,比承载人类自然智能的书籍更容易受到AI的剧烈冲击呢?

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Artificial intelligence. This gigantic shadow of artificial intelligence. It's kind of like Chuck Klosterman wrote about the '90s and he talked about how the internet was coming and almost there. And that's that's what's going on with artificial And what is more affected by artificial intelligence than the natural intelligence of books?

M.J. 富兰克林: 你的意思是,这种独特性体现在我们自身审视文学的方式上,还是已经体现在了书籍本身的内容之中?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Yeah, but did Are you saying that this feels like it's specific unique in terms of how we ourselves are approaching and thinking about literature or about the books themselves?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 它作为潜文本,正在潜移默化地影响着当下的每一部作品。只要你还有呼吸、对这个世界还保留着一丝敏锐与清醒,你就会发现书籍正逐渐消融于网络空间——甚至我都不知道那该叫什么空间。书籍被无情地扫描、投喂,语言本身正在经历激进的翻修重构。如今我们不仅在与彼此对话,更是在与机器对话。即便创作者竭力回避AI、逃向其他的虚构宇宙,这种现实也必然会无孔不入地塑造他们的创作,并重构我们读者处理文本的认知机制。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: subtextually affecting every book that's written right now. Uh well, if you have a pulse or you know, if you're at all engaged or or aware in the world, you know that books are sort of dissolving in into uh cyberspace or I don't even know what space it is. It's like that They're being scanned. They're being, you know, language itself is being radically revised and we're now in dialogue not just with each other, but with with machines. Even if you're avoiding it, even if writers are avoiding it and escaping into other worlds, I don't know how that can't inform what they're doing and how we're processing it.

德怀特·加纳: 实际上,在今年阅读某些哪怕十分严肃的作品时,我好几次都强烈察觉到AI的存在。我能隐约感到作家在使用它。今年至少有一两位我过去持续关注的作家,我发现他们的新作明显变得更加“丰满肥厚”,堆砌了更多信息碎片,展开了许多过去根本不会铺陈的细枝末节。我们不是警察,书评人的职责不是去核查作家是否用了AI,但我时常在想,追问这类问题究竟何时会成为书评人日常工作的一部分?

英文原文

Dwight Garner: I I actually felt um you know, I felt several times reading even serious books this year that I was I was in the presence of AI. I felt that writers were using it and I felt it, you know, there was some at least one writer this year, I think two that I've read in the past and I feel like their new book just had a bit more a bit more plump and had more information. They teased out things that maybe they wouldn't have teased out as much in the past. And we're not the police. I mean, we're not here to fact-check their AI. But I wonder when it will become part of a critic's job to ask these kind of questions.

M.J. 富兰克林: 这确实很有启发。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Yeah, that makes sense.

M.J. 富兰克林: 珍,你在非虚构作品中也观察到了同样的现象吗?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Are you seeing that too in non-fiction?

珍妮弗·萨莱: 大概率也是存在的。非虚构涵盖的门类极广,但对于那些旨在输送海量信息的工具型作品,我有时确实会怀疑,其资料搜集与整合过程中究竟有多少是由AI代劳的。至于落实在行文上,我也说不准,AI汲取了网络上现存的全部文本,最终吐出的不过是某种居于中位数的平庸散文腔调。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: I probably am. Um I think it's interesting with uh I you know, there's all kinds of non-fiction, but the books that really want to convey a lot of information, I do wonder sometimes how much of the information gathering process has been done with the assistance of AI in terms of the writing. I don't know. I mean AI takes all the writing that's out there and then sort of delivers something that's I guess the mean or the median prose um

M.J. 富兰克林: 是的,我们甚至已经总结出了一种典型的**“ChatGPT腔”**。我想我们报纸甚至还专门报道过关于那个争议不断的破折号(em dash)的故事。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Well, we've yeah, we've identified a we've identified a chat GPT voice. I mean I think we even ran stories about the you know the M dash the contested M dash.

德怀特·加纳: 是的。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: Yeah.

M.J. 富兰克林: 这是一个诡异的莫比乌斯环:AI之所以反复使用它,是因为人类最初这样写;而突然之间,原本属于人类的语言习惯却反过来变成了人工智能的典型标志。这条贪吃蛇咬住自己的尾巴,无限循环下去。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: And it's this interesting loop because AI is repeating that because humans use it and then all of a sudden this human thing becomes a symbol of this artificial thing and like the ouroboros just continues on and on and on.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 此外还有一层语言经济学在起作用,即供求关系决定的语言价值。现实是如今生成的文本数量超越了以往任何历史时期,这不可避免地让文本变得越发廉价。因此,作家的职责与使命也随之发生了质的变迁。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Well, there's also an economy of it like an economy of language as supply and demand. The fact is there's now more text being generated and than ever before. It's kind of makes text cheaper. So it it makes the duty of the writer kind of different.

文本细读之道与批评家的雷达

M.J. 富兰克林: 那么,你们又是如何解析文本的?作为专业书评人,当你们进入阅读状态时,我想探寻一下你们的大脑神经回路。在你们的批评生涯和个人阅读中,你们始终在寻觅的是什么?每当拿起一本书,你们最容易被什么特质吸引,或者最敏锐察觉到什么?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Well, how do you parse text? Like when you are reading I want to I want to peek into your brains a little bit more. When you're reading as critics are there things that you're always looking for things that you gravitate toward as critics as readers you you pick up a book you you always notice this element or you're seeing this thing.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我觉得我最先捕捉到的是**“连接之网”(webs)。类似于心理学家卡罗尔·吉利根**(Carol Gilligan)所定义的那种社会联结之网。当一部作品成功构筑出一个完整世界、并将千丝万缕的联系建立起来时,我会被深深震撼。虽然借用这个词有点俗气——向《纽约时报》游戏板块致歉——但确实如此。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: I think I notice webs. So like what can you know what Carol Gilligan would call like webs of social connection or whatever. I'm very impressed when worlds are built and connections are made. I mean it it's it's a kind of yucky word but sorry New York Times games but anyway.

M.J. 富兰克林: 德怀特,你呢?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: What about you Dwight?

德怀特·加纳: 我始终在寻找**“生命力”**(vitality)。一本书在承载任何其他企图之前,首先必须是活生生的。在它阐发思想、灌输知识或构建世界之前,它必须先具备鲜活的脉搏。和大家一样,我每周都要经手翻阅海量的样书,竭力从中淘出金子。通常读到二三十页,你就能断定这位作者是否拥有真正的声音、文字是否充盈着生命力。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: I'm just looking for vitality. You know, the book's got to be alive before it can do anything else. You know, before it can have ideas before it can tell you about something or build a world. Like all of us here I pick up a lot of books each week and try to find the good ones. And you normally know within 20 or 30 pages whether this person has a voice where it's alive and can write.

M.J. 富兰克林: 究竟是什么让一部作品显得鲜活?是什么赋予了它独特的“声音”?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: What makes something feel alive? What makes it something feel like it has a voice?

德怀特·加纳: 归根结底,是极其严密的精密观察(close observation)。那些善于描摹细微事物的作家,能将你所熟视无睹的世界擦亮抛光,以更透彻清晰的姿态交还到你眼前。作家马丁·艾米斯(Martin Amis)曾把约翰·厄普代克(John Updike)誉为“精密观察的北美防空司令部”(a NORAD of close observation)——意味着他的视野如同苍蝇的复眼一般明察秋毫,捕获万物的纤毫毕现,凝练出惊艳绝伦的意象。这正是我所追求的核心体验:以一种全新、睿智且扣人心弦的方式,重新向我揭示我是谁,向我们揭示我们究竟是谁。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: basically what it is is close observation. And people who describe things give your world back to you in a polished way more clearly than you've seen it for a while. Uh Martin Amis once called John Updike a quote a NORAD of close observation meaning he's seeing everything in like a fly would see it, you know, like the um and just brilliant images and that's part of it for me. Part of it is just telling me who I am and who we all are in a newish um smart interesting way.

M.J. 富兰克林: 而且是以一种极其诚实的方式。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: And honest honest way.

德怀特·加纳: 坦诚,极度真实。菲利普·罗斯(Philip Roth)曾经说过:“风格并不重要,风格对我来说一文不值。重要的是声音(voice)。”风格与独特的声音之间存在着云泥之别。只要一个作家拥有无可替代的声音,我就甘愿彻底沉浸其中。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: Honesty, yeah. I mean Philip Roth said um um style doesn't matter. Style doesn't matter to me. Voice matters, okay? There's a big difference between style and voice. And someone with a with a with a great voice, I'm just there.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 我非常认同德怀特关于“生命力”的见解。我在阅读时,时刻都在期待惊喜。正是那些出其不意的瞬间激发了我在空白处疯狂涂写边注。无论是在精妙绝伦的修辞语言层面,还是在深刻的思维认知维度,作家将截然不同的事物贯通勾连,都会让我击节赞叹。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: I I I really like what you said Dwight about vitality. When I'm reading something I'm looking to be surprised. I'm always Those are the things that get my marginalia going, I guess. Which is, you know, a moment where an author either puts things in such a way so at the level of language or, you know, at the level of thinking, I guess, connects different things.

M.J. 富兰克林: 你事后还能认清自己写的边注吗?因为我阅读时的一大硬伤就是疯狂记笔记,但过后再看却完全无法辨认。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Can you read your marginalia? Cuz that's another hallmark of my reading is that I take notes and then I and then I I cannot decipher my marginalia. I have to rely on my memory. We all know how that goes.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 我确实也遭遇过重读时完全猜不透自己当时鬼画符写了些什么的窘境,但绝大多数时候,我还是能破译那些潦草的字迹。

很多非虚构作者误以为自己的唯一使命就是传递信息——这固然构成了某一类重要的非虚构门类,但我由衷倾心的,是那种绝不甘心止步于“交差”、不仅要讲清事实、更要以超越常规的艺术手法把思想与故事推进到全新维度的创作者。他们能在已有的刻度上,硬生生再拔高一截。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: I have had instances where I have no idea what I was saying at a certain point when I read something, but for the most part I can decipher my little scratchings. But yeah, I like with a lot of non-fiction where the author thinks that their main purpose is to deliver information and that's that's definitely like a certain genre of book and it's it's an important genre of book, but I I like the author who also says, "No, you know, I also want to convey this story. I want to convey this idea in a way that is not just about doing the work." That they're they're doing something else with it that they they turn it another notch.

M.J. 富兰克林: 没弄错。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Yep.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 这正是我始终在寻觅的品质。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: And that's always what I'm looking for.

2026年度新书力荐

M.J. 富兰克林: 刚才我们宏观探讨了书籍的核心追求与心动特质。接下来我想转向具体书目推荐。不过在此之前,我们先稍作休整,进一段中场休息。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: We just talked about what we look for big picture in books, what excites us. I want to pivot to individual book recommendations, but first I think we should take a quick break.

M.J. 富兰克林: 欢迎回来。我是 M.J. 富兰克林,正与《纽约时报》专职书评人德怀特·加纳、亚历山德拉·雅各布斯和珍妮弗·萨莱畅谈。现在我想请每位推荐一本2026年出版的、你们发自内心深爱的好书。谁先来?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: And we're back. I'm M.J. Franklin. I'm chatting with our staff book critics Dwight Garner, Alexandra Jacobs, and Jennifer Szalai. I want to turn to some specific books. I asked each of you to come prepared to talk about a 2026 book that you loved. Who wants to kick us off?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我先来吧。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: I'll start.

M.J. 富兰克林: 请。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Yes.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我想向广大读者隆重推荐盖尔·费尔德曼(Gail Feldman)的**《绝非偶然》**(Nothing Random)。这是我今年最早评述的作品之一。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: I want to put on readers' radar Nothing Random by Gail Feldman. This is one of the first books I reviewed this year.

M.J. 富兰克林: 《绝非偶然》是关于贝内特·瑟夫(Bennett Cerf)的传记?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Nothing Random being specifically about Bennett Cerf,

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 讲述的是兰登书屋(Random House)联合创始人贝内特·瑟夫的传奇生平。这也意味着,我们当今阅读的半壁江山,间接而言都承蒙他的恩泽。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: of Bennett Cerf, who co-founded Random House, which means he's indirectly responsible for a huge amount of what we're reading today.

M.J. 富兰克林: 你在书评中给予了它极高的盛赞,称其堪比新时代的《权力经纪人》(The Power Broker),是今年每个人都不容错过的巨著。它究竟有何过人之处?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: You just heaped huge praise on it. It's the new power broker. It's the book everyone should read this year. Why did you love it?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我为什么如此推崇它?当下我们正处于“群体传记”蔚然成风的时代,但有时这种写法容易稀释个体的光彩。而在贝内特·瑟夫身上,他不仅是出版史上举足轻重的奠基者——我甚至敢说是最富颠覆性的巨擘——同时他也是一个在文化上极具争议、趣味与复杂性的存在。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Why did I love it? We're we're sort of in an era of group biographies. I think it's sometimes you know, it can be a little bit diluted. And and in the case of Bennett Cerf, he not only was this incredibly important seminal, dare I say subversive publisher, but he was also sort of this kind of questionable cultural figure, right? Because he went on What's My Line? And he wrote joke books that were just so groan-worthy. So, he has this legacy that is sort of divided, but she brings it all together in this just magisterial, funny, fast-moving biography. I mean, it's it's 600 pages, but it feels like 200.

M.J. 富兰克林: 亚历山德拉,我被你彻底说服了。珍,你呢?你在2026年挚爱的是哪一本?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Alexandra, I'm sold. Um, what about you, Jen? What's a 2026 book you love?

珍妮弗·萨莱: 这是我最近刚写完书评的一部作品,名为**《意志与专注》**(Will and Attention),作者是梅根·奥吉布林(Meghan O'Gieblyn)。这本书恰好与我们开场谈到的“求索”主题严丝合缝。

奥吉布林在中西部的基督教原教旨主义家庭长大,二十多岁时,她彻底丧失了宗教信仰。要知道她此前对此极其虔诚,甚至进入神学院准备投身全职传道,结果信仰崩塌,人生随即堕入酗酒的深渊。而这部作品记录的正是那场浩劫十年后的余波:她破天荒地萌生了皈依天主教的念头。她开始背着丈夫,偷偷摸摸地参加弥撒。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: So, this is a book that I actually just recently reviewed and it's called Will and Attention and it's by Meghan O'Gieblyn. And actually it maybe fits in with our searching theme. So, O'Gieblyn is somebody who grew up in the Midwest in a Christian fundamentalist family. She basically lost her religion in her 20s. I mean, she was very serious about it. She studied to go into the ministry and then eventually lost her faith and then she fell into alcoholism. And so this is actually a book of what happened after that, which is about a decade later she decided she would try to convert to Catholicism of all things. She started attending mass secretly. This was all secret. She kept this from her husband.

M.J. 富兰克林: 难以置信。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Wow.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 她开始与神父商讨皈依事宜,最终却功亏一篑——因为那位神父在某次谈话中突然质问她为什么还不生孩子。她瞬间意识到天主教或许并不是她的归宿。不久之后,她重蹈覆辙再次酗酒。

表面上看,这像是一部混杂着宗教寻道与戒瘾康复的回忆录,但内在实质远比这些标签离奇诡谲得多。她深切沉迷于意义的宏大母题,不仅关乎神学,更牵涉哲学思辨。书名源自法国神秘主义哲学家西蒙娜·韦伊(Simone Weil)的名言。听起来或许非常形而上、高深莫测,但它探寻的核心命题关乎我们与外部世界交互的本质路径:我们究竟应该凭借强横的意志,还是依靠纯粹的专注?

在韦伊的哲学体系中,意志与专注截然对立——真正的专注绝非意志的咬牙坚持,不是青筋暴起地死盯某处。奥吉布林是一个永恒的寻道者,这种智性特质令我深深着迷。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Um she started talking to a priest about converting. And then she failed to do it basically because the priest at a certain point asked her why she wasn't having babies. And she realized maybe this wasn't for her. Shortly after that she ended up falling into drinking again. And so this is a story it's one of those things that it sounds like on the surface a religious memoir as well as a recovery memoir, but in fact it's something that's a little weirder than that and I really appreciated it. She's very interested in large questions of meaning not only connected to religion, but also philosophy. And the title comes from a quote by the French mystic Simone Weil. And that sounds [clears throat] I know very cerebral. And it is, but it basically has to do with this idea of how we interact with the world. Should it be through the force of will or our powers of attention? And Weil saw those things as actually quite distinct and that attention has to do with something that's not willful. It's not about focusing on something really hard. You know, she's a searcher or a seeker. Um and and that fascinates me.

M.J. 富兰克林: 亚历山德拉,当珍提起这本书时,我看你兴奋得手舞足蹈。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Alexandra, when Jen brought this up, you started making excited hands.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我现在都记不清自己是因为酗酒的情节还是神秘主义而激动了。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Now, I can't remember if it was for the alcoholism or [laughter]

难读之书的奖赏:《The Disappears》

M.J. 富兰克林: 德怀特,快来拯救我们。你深爱的2026年代表作是哪一本?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Wait, save us. What is your 2026 book that you love?

德怀特·加纳: 我认为我今年读到的最佳之作,也是我写下引发轰动、甚至堪称声名狼藉的书评的那部,就是马龙·詹姆斯(Marlon James)的长篇小说**《消逝者》**(The Disappears)。这是我平生读过的最伟大小说之一。

干我们这行久了,很难再遇到这样的阅读震颤。我已经很多很多年未曾体验过这般狂暴的阅读冲击了——整部作品彻底接管了你的心智,让你无比确信自己正置身于一位文学巨擘的掌控之中。当今世上有太多我深爱的聪明作家,但在读《消逝者》时,我感觉自己撞上了德莱塞(Theodore Dreiser)式的文学巨兽。这宛如一辆拥有重型底盘的装甲巨舰,专为旷日持久的远征而铸造。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: Well, I I I I think that my best book of this year, famously, perhaps infamously, is Marlon James's novel The Disappears. It's one of the best novels I've ever read. And um you know, you get you get to be you do this for a while, as I've done, and you're not used I haven't had a reading experience like this for a long time, like a long time. Um a book that just took me over and I felt that I was in the hands of a of a major writer. And there are a lot of brilliant writers out there that I love. I I think of kibitzing fiction writers. They're in touch with the world and I love them and I'll read them forever. But uh reading Marlon James's novel The Disappears, I felt like this was something like Dreiser. This was like This was like a a car with a big chassis, you know, and it's in for the long haul.

德怀特·加纳: 它一次又一次、无情地碾过你的心智。更惊人的是,在宏大磅礴之余,它依然充盈着机敏的智慧与入微的体察。它就像一棵遮天蔽日的参天大树,树冠盛开繁花,树底杂草丛生,而你在阅读时能同时真切感知到两者的共存。这实在太非凡了。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: And um it just runs you over again and again and again. And adding to that, it does have the wit and the observation. It has like it's this enormous tree that flowers the weeds grow under and and you're aware of both at the same time and it I think it's extraordinary. So,

M.J. 富兰克林: 我太喜欢这个隐喻了:繁花盛开却杂草蔓生的巨树,你同时体察到两者。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: I love that metaphor. An enormous tree that flowers with weeds under and you are like you notice both. I love that.

德怀特·加纳: 你时时刻刻都能感受到那棵该死的大树的存在。关于它,我最后想说的一点是,它唤醒了我久违的情感。年轻时读书,你会觉得那些文学巨匠就像行走在地球上的恐龙,无论是艾丽丝·默多克(Iris Murdoch)还是其他大师。而现在,马龙·詹姆斯已然跻身于此列。我甚至会想到,自己此刻就生活在距离马龙·詹姆斯仅仅四英里的地方。这部小说就是为传世而生的。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: you're always aware of the of the goddamn tree. And um I you know, it made me feel The last thing I'll say about it is that it made me feel in a way I haven't felt for a long time. When you're young as a reader and you you think like these dinosaurs walk these great writers are walking the earth, whether it's uh Iris Murdoch or name name your person. And I felt like Marlon James is now one of these writers. I feel like you know, I'm living like 4 miles away from Marlon [ __ ] James. I just think this novel is built to last.

M.J. 富兰克林: 如果有人看到这本书觉得篇幅太长、场面太暴力,因而本能地退避三舍,你会如何说服他们翻开它?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Can you convince someone who sees this book and thinks this is too long, this is too violent, and just like write it off just based off of that. How would you convince someone to pick it up?

德怀特·加纳: 我不敢保证这本书适合所有人,但我极力鼓励大家放手一试。它的阅读难度体现在三四个不同层面:首先,它进入状态非常缓慢,开头虽然有趣,但你很容易怀疑故事能否收拢,如果你不咬牙坚持,很容易中途放弃;其次,它是一部极度过火、张狂、近乎残酷的男同性恋小说,其性描写的大胆露骨与原始野性,超越了我多年来读过的任何书籍。

这背后的部分缘由在于,当代大多数男性作家几乎全线退缩,不敢在虚构作品中如此赤裸地注入对性的狂暴欲望,生怕被扣上厌女症、色情狂之类的帽子。于是男性作者们往往对这类题材退避三舍。而看着马龙·詹姆斯不仅敢于涉足,更是毫无顾忌地一次次深入禁区。加之如你所言,书中充斥着极度残酷的暴力。

因此它绝非老少咸宜,但我依然认为坚持读完是绝对值得的。它就像你在大学里遭遇的那种“赎罪式苦读”(penitential reading)——为了理解这个世界的全貌,即便过程痛彻心扉,你也必须咬牙读下去。《消逝者》正是这样的小说。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: You know, I'm not sure this book is for everyone. I would encourage you to try. It's difficult in three or four different ways. The first way is it doesn't really get going for a pretty long time. I mean, it's interesting from the start, but you you can have this sense that, well, maybe this isn't going to come together. That's easy to have if you don't push on. B, it is a over-the-top, intense, almost brutal gay novel. I mean, the sex in this novel is more out there, raunchier than any book that I've read for a very long time. And we can part part of the reason the sex might be so forceful in this book, I think, is that male writers in general sort of backed away a little bit from this kind of intense feelings about sex, putting that into their fiction, worrying they'll be seen as, you know, name your whatever. Just just be seen as misogynistic, sex-obsessed louts. So, our male writers don't go there anymore in this kind of way, at least not very often. So, watching Marlon go there, not just go there, but go there and go there and go there. And then it's also quite violent, as you mentioned. So, this is not for everyone, but I would say that it's worth persevering. It's It's like one of those books you're in college, there's some reading that's almost like penitential reading. You have to read it to understand the world, even if it's not always easy. And I think this is one of those novels.

M.J. 富兰克林: 我爱这本书,而且我也迷恋具有挑战性的难读之书。当你硬啃下一部向你发起挑衅的作品时,那种精神回报是无与伦比的。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: I love this book, and then I also love just difficult books in general. There's something that is so rewarding about encountering a book that challenges you.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 你说的“难读”,是指读起来令人精神痛苦,还是指文笔晦涩难懂、诘屈聱牙?

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: And you mean it's difficult this one because it's painful to read or because it the prose is actually impenetrable and highfalutin or anything?

德怀特·加纳: 它的语言丝毫不故弄玄虚。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: highfalutin at all.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 那它的难度究竟在何处?你具体指什么?

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: what's difficult about it? What do you mean exactly?

M.J. 富兰克林: 是其中的创伤与沉重感,以及小说本身的物理厚度。对我而言,这是一部充满挑战的巨著,但当我读完最后一页时,我由衷赞叹马龙·詹姆斯竟然真的做到了。我无比迷恋这种读完一部艰难巨作后的狂喜:庆幸自己没有半途而废,庆幸自己经历了这场洗礼,心智仿佛在进行着最活跃的剧烈发酵。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: it's the pain of it. It's the the heaviness of it. And then also quite literally, like the novel itself. And so so for me, it's a a challenging novel, but I finished this book and I thought Marlon James did that. And I I love that feeling when you finish a difficult book and you're like, I'm glad I stuck with it because I've gotten so much out of it and or I'm glad I read this book because I'm just thinking, I'm percolating and in this very active active kind of thinking.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 鉴于德怀特的书评引发的抢购狂潮,现在市面上已经很难买到这本书了。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: very challenging to find right now because of Dwight's

德怀特·加纳: 但它的难度绝不像瓦格纳的《指环》四联剧那样,需要你去歌剧院熬坐十五个小时受刑——虽然那很伟大,但散场时你只是庆幸自己总算熬活过来了。《消逝者》不是那种受罪,它贯穿始终的是极度密集的极致体验。它之所以显得不易把握,很大程度上是因为无数声部在同时喧嚣鸣响,常常让你迷失方向;你不断迷失,又不断寻回线索,但读到最后这甚至都无关紧要了,因为所有声部宛如大合唱般交织共振,讲述着同源异流的壮丽史诗。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: But it's not challenging the way like it's not like it's like the Ring trilogy, you know, you go to the opera and suffer for 15 cuz it's great, but you know, you're glad you survived it. This is not that kind of thing. This is like it's an intense experience all the way through and it's difficult in part I think because there's so many voices talking and you I I lost track almost, you know, I lost track a lot and I found it back again, but in the end it doesn't matter because they're almost it's almost like it's almost like um um a chorus. They're all singing together and it doesn't matter. They're telling similar stories and they branch off and uh it doesn't matter in the end.

从《American Hagwon》到终身传道书单

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我在读李敏金(Min Jin Lee)的新作**《美国补习班》**(American Hagwon)时也有完全相同的触电感。这也是刚出炉的书评。我深爱这部作品,它同样如同一棵繁花盛开的大树,欲望、性与偶发的暴力交织共存,精彩绝伦。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: I felt the same way about American Hagwon by Min Jin Lee, yes. So this is freshly reviewed. I adored this book. I also feel it is a flowering tree and all of that. There is sex. There's even a little violence. I think it's incredible.

M.J. 富兰克林: 这两部作品与作者的创作轨迹有着惊人的平行对照:马龙·詹姆斯上一部里程碑巨作《七杀简史》(A Brief History of Seven Killings)距今已有十到十一年;李敏金的《柏青哥》(Pachinko)到《美国补习班》亦是历经十载沉淀。重量级作家,历时十年潜心酿造的万众瞩目之作。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: And there are parallels in terms of the profile of this book and this author. Marlon James's previous book, A Brief History of Seven Killings, came out 10, 11 years ago. Similar for Pachinko and American Hagwon. So this is a big major writer, a heavily anticipated book that's been percolating for like a decade.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 谢天谢地我真的很喜欢它!

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Thank goodness I liked it. [laughter]

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我之前内心非常焦虑,因为《柏青哥》当年掀起了现象级的文化海啸。但我认为这部《美国补习班》甚至超越了《柏青哥》。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: No, I mean I I was I was anxious cuz you know, Pachinko was such an enormous phenomenon. I think this book is better than Pachinko.

M.J. 富兰克林: 展开讲讲。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Tell me more.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 首先,单听题材简介,它可能并不会让你觉得惊艳绝伦:讲述的是一位韩裔美国私立学校校长的生活轨迹,核心聚焦于曼哈顿由韩国补习学院(hagwons)构成的庞大影子教育帝国。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Well, first of all because it's about you would never to describe it, it's not going to sound glamorous or anything. It's about a Korean-American head of a private school and it involves this shadow world of of Manhattan of cram schools or hagwons. But the point is you wouldn't think that this would necessarily be a fascinating book cuz what does that matter to the average person, but she just completely takes us there.

M.J. 富兰克林: 是什么让它脱颖而出,如此卓尔不群?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: takes us there. And what makes it stand out? What makes it so special?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 它构筑了庞大而璀璨的人物星座,每个人都在拼死追逐所有人共同渴求的终极欲望:追求卓越,渴望阶层跃迁,渴望孩子拥有比自己更好的命运,甚至为了在精英体系中撕开一道口子而不惜走向犯罪深渊。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: it stand out is that it's a huge constellation of characters pursuing what we all are pursuing, which is, you know, striving and excellence and wanting things for their children and to move up in society and getting criminal even to do so. And it's so smart and it goes so fast.

M.J. 富兰克林: 没错,这再次印证了书籍探寻真理、建立连接、击碎固有认知并重塑心智的力量。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Yep. We were talking about the power of books to search, to form connections, to crack open questions and answers, and expand that way.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 毫无疑问,我恨不得亲手把这本书塞进每一位读者的怀里。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: Absolutely. And I just want to press this book into people's hands.

终身布道书单与私房枕边书

M.J. 富兰克林: 这正好引出了我的第二个问题:无论新旧,哪本书是你们愿意终身为之四处布道的“布道之书”?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: So that actually leads me to my second question. I want to know what's a book, new or old, that you feel you're an evangelist for, that you will just recommend always and forever? Jen, take it away.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 这是法国作家埃马纽埃尔·卡雷尔(Emmanuel Carrère)的**《非我的一生》**(Lives Other Than My Own)。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: This is a book um Lives Other Than My Own by Emmanuel Carrère.

M.J. 富兰克林: 这部作品我之前并不了解。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Who, I don't know this book.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 卡雷尔是一位杰出的法国当代作家,写过许多惊世骇俗的作品。这部非虚构十分独特,开篇记录了他与当时的伴侣在斯里兰卡度假时遭遇了2004年的印度洋大海啸。他们目睹了滔天惨剧,结识了一对在此役中痛失幼女的夫妇,全书详尽记录了那场灾难的酷烈,以及人如何在废墟中重建生活。

随后镜头一转,切回法国:伴侣的妹妹罹患癌症濒临绝境。这位妹妹是一名底层法官,与另一名身患残疾的法官同僚携手,利用法国司法体系的缝隙,专门为负债累累的赤贫底层同放贷机构死磕。海啸惨剧与法庭抗争看似毫无关联,但在卡雷尔笔下,它们奇迹般地熔铸为关于人类脆弱性与抗争尊严的一体两面。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Carrère is a French writer. He's written a number of fantastic books. This one is, um, a very singular work of nonfiction that starts off he was in Sri Lanka with his then-partner when the 2004 tsunami hit. And so they're there when this horrible tragedy hits. They befriend this couple who's lost their young daughter, and so it recounts that tragedy and its aftermath. And then the second part of the book goes back to France, where his partner's sister has been dying of cancer. And she's a magistrate, a judge, and she and another judge who's also suffered from a physical disability had basically been using their powers as judges to try to help people who'd become indebted to consumer lending agencies. And they seem like totally disparate stories, but Carrère brings them together and it's just this extraordinary account of what it means to look at other people's lives and bring them together in this just moving, beautifully observed, utterly unsentimental way.

M.J. 富兰克林: 我太爱这种作品了——读完会让你惊叹“原来非虚构还能这么写!”德怀特,该你了。哪本书能让你化身狂热的布道者?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: I love books like that where you read it and you're like, I didn't know you could do that. My entire understanding of what this medium is has been expanded and I love that. Jen, thank you. Love that. Dwight, you're up. What's a book that you are an evangelist for? I mean, I'm tempted to say Make Way for Ducklings, but

德怀特·加纳: 差一点就是《给鸭子让路》(Make Way for Ducklings)了!不过我要推荐的是我二十多岁时读过的一套三部曲,卡尔文·特里林(Calvin Trillin)的美食随笔集:《美式油炸》(American Fried)、《爱丽丝,开饭了》(Alice, Let's Eat)与《第三份点心》(Third Helpings),合辑名为《饱食漫游记》(The Tummy Trilogy)。特里林当时走遍全美,以极其荒诞幽默、不拘小节的笔触去记录各地的街头市井美食。那是一种无拘无束、充满智性狡黠的声音。

如果还要加一本虚构,那就是拉里·布朗(Larry Brown)的**《乔》**(Joe)。布朗的文字具有一种原始粗粝、毫不妥协的南方文学质感,将生活的泥泞与人性的尊严刻画得入木三分。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: Way for Ducklings, but um but [laughter] I won't. There's a series of books that I read when I was in my early 20s by Calvin Trillin. Trilogy? Yeah. Their their initial titles are American Fried, Alice, Let's Eat, and Third Helpings, which A it was compiled in an omnibus edition called The Tummy Trilogy. And it's basically Calvin Trillin traveling around America looking for things to eat. And he is so funny and witty and observant. And it gave me a sense of what a writer with a voice could do with material that was supposedly light. And then if we're talking about fiction, I've got to say Larry Brown's novel Joe. Well, you know, I've always been a big fan of Southern Lit writ large. But Larry Brown has this grit and this heart that just tears you apart.

M.J. 富兰克林: 亚历山德拉,你的布道之作是哪一本?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: I love that. Alexandra?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 真正塑造了我、第一时间浮现在我心头的,其实是约翰·厄普代克(John Updike)的**《混事兔子》**(Rabbit, Run)以及整个“兔子四部曲”。

我知道厄普代克如今在文坛稍显过时,大家甚至带着某种批判的眼光看他。但我认为他笔下那种对美国战后中产阶级生活的微距观察、密不透风的语言质感,是无人能及的。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: The book or books that made me, certainly the first one that come comes to mind is actually a classic, which is John Updike's Rabbit series, starting with Rabbit, Run. I think Updike The thing is you I believe he's fallen a bit slightly out of fashion. And but the close observation that Dwight was talking about earlier, it's just unmatched. You read it and you realize every single thread of daily human life is connected.

M.J. 富兰克林: 万物皆有联结,细密编织的意义之网,令人赞叹。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Everything is connected. The web of everything. Incredible.

时代透视镜:生物战、官僚机制与社会切片

M.J. 富兰克林: 稍后我们将探讨生物战、公务员与补习班。

我的下一个问题是:如果要让读者看清当下的世界,哪本书是最关键的时代透视镜?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Coming up, biological war, civil servants, and Hagwons. My next question, my next book that I asked you to bring, what's a book that you think readers should pick up if they want to understand the moment we're in? Jen, what did you bring?

珍妮弗·萨莱: 这本书我并未撰写正式书评,但作为一份时代文献,它具有极其震撼的洞察力。它揭示了在政府部门、官僚机构内部,那些默默运转的机制究竟在遭遇怎样的侵蚀与质变。大家常常听到**“行政国家”**(administrative state)这个宏大术语,在很多人眼里它宛如一个冷冰冰的黑箱。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Um this is a book that I I didn't review. It's from this year, but I thought that as a document of our moment, it was really incredible. Well, I think what it illuminated is what was happening at the level of these agencies, inside the government, the civil servants. We hear a term like the administrative state, and it's kind of a black box.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 一提到这个词,人们往往眼神发滞,觉得枯燥抽象。但它真正关乎维系一个现代社会正常运转的毛细血管。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Yeah, people's eyes glaze over. I mean, understandably, you know, I mean, it's it sounds so abstract. And I think that's why this book is so important, because it humanizes it, shows the Stakes, and explains what's happening to the people who actually make the government run.

M.J. 富兰克林: 德怀特,如果你要推荐一本理解当下时代的作品,你会选哪部?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: All right, Dwight, what's a book that you think readers should pick up if they want to understand the moment we're living through?

德怀特·加纳: 除了马龙·詹姆斯的《消逝者》,今年虚构领域我最推崇的是科尔森·怀特黑德(Colson Whitehead)的新作。他游刃有余地穿梭于各种文学类型与题材之间,但我尤其钟情于他的哈莱姆犯罪系列。

而在非虚构领域,南希·莱蒙(Nancy Lemon)关于生物战(biological warfare)与流行病防御的著作让我毛骨悚然。她深刻揭示了现代科技与病原体研究一旦失控,将如何不可逆地将人类推向万劫不复的深渊。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: Well, you know, MJ, my favorite works of fiction this year after The Vanishing One was Colson Whitehead's latest. He can and he has. He's written so many books across such a range of styles. I prefer his Harlem crime series to his more canonical titles. I think he's looser. Nancy Lemon's book about biological warfare. Um What she does is she knows a lot about biological war and how this could lead to the end of the world. It is terrifying, well-reported, and urgent.

M.J. 富兰克林: 大家都应该去读一读。亚历山德拉,该你了。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Go check it out everyone. Alexandra you're up.

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 我想推荐的并非那些大张旗鼓的显赫之作,而是那些容易被大众忽视的“潜行之书”(sleeper books)。比如芭芭拉·特拉皮多(Barbara Trapido)的经典小说《杰克那位更有名的兄弟》(Brother of the More Famous Jack)——书名极度劝退,但内里却才华横溢、幽默绝伦。

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: These are not the books that I want to recommend exactly because they don't necessarily need shouting from the rooftops. But the two I want to push, one is the wonderful world that almost was by Andrew, and Barbara Trapido, a novel called Brother of the more famous Jack. Terrible title. Brilliant, witty, British novel.

压箱底遗珠与尾声致谢

M.J. 富兰克林: 还有哪些你们压箱底、必须在离开录音室前向读者安利的遗珠吗?亚历山德拉?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Alexandra, any that you haven't gotten to that you want to mention?

亚历山德拉·雅各布斯: 宝贝,我的弹药已经彻底打光了!

英文原文

Alexandra Jacobs: I'm I'm I'm out, baby. I'm out.

M.J. 富兰克林: 珍?

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Jen? [laughter]

珍妮弗·萨莱: 吉姆·谢泼德(Jim Shepard)大约二十年前出版的短篇小说集**《爱与氢气》**(Love and Hydrogen)。同名短篇以令人惊叹的笔触重构了兴登堡号飞艇空难背后的禁忌之恋,技巧高超得让人战栗。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Love and Hydrogen, a short story collection by Jim Shepard. It came out about 20 years ago. The title story is about two men working on the Hindenburg who fall in love. It is astonishingly brilliant.

德怀特·加纳: 我还想补上一本:加拿大一位清道夫写的传记**《垃圾》**(Trash),作者是西蒙·佩里尔(Simon Perril)。短小精悍,生猛粗粝,写透了底层劳作的真实肌理。

英文原文

Dwight Garner: I would add Trash, the novel by the the garbage man in Canada, Simon Perril memoir. Short, thin, razor-sharp.

M.J. 富兰克林: 非常感谢各位!今天的对谈实在太精彩了。

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: Thank you so much. This was great.

珍妮弗·萨莱: 感谢邀请我们。

英文原文

Jennifer Szalai: Thank you for having us.

M.J. 富兰克林: 我是 M.J. 富兰克林。《书评》播客由萨拉·戴蒙德(Sarah Diamond)、艾米·珀尔(Amy Pearl)和帕特里夏·祖巴丹(Patricia Zubadan)联合制作,丹·鲍威尔(Dan Powell)负责混音。特别鸣谢达利亚·哈达德(Dalia Haddad)。

我们非常渴望听到大家对节目的反馈,欢迎致信 books@nytimes.com。感谢收听,我们下期再会!

英文原文

M.J. Franklin: I'm MJ. The Book Review is produced by Sarah Diamond, Amy Pearl, and Patricia Zubadan, and mixed by Dan Powell. Special thanks to Dalia Haddad. We want to hear what you think about the show. So, send us an email at books@nytimes.com. And remember you can read all our reviews and features at nytimes.com/books. I'm MJ Franklin, sitting in this week for Gilbert Cruz. Thanks for listening.