Jeyan: It may not look like much from the outside, but this is a Toronto institution. Sneaky Dee's has been at the corner of Collagen Bathurst since 1990, serving giant plates of nachos, hosting live music and giving generations of Torontonians a place to hang out. Here's general manager George Montrose.

George Montrose: Somebody told me that if you picked up the Lonely Planet under Toronto, if you want to see the real Toronto, you got to go to sneaky because it's such a cross-section of the city.

Jeyan: But now its future is up in the air. And the reason will sound familiar to anyone who has watched the city change over the years. A proposed condo development. But community members and Sneaky Dee's fans aren't willing to give up without a fight. We look at why so many people are coming together to protect a dive bar, and who has the power to save it. But first, what does Sneaky Dee's have in common with coffee shops, bookstores, and parks? Well, they're all examples of third places, meaning they're not home or work. We dig into why third places are so important for building community and what we lose when they disappear. Welcome to The Rundown. Back in the 80s, sociologist Ray Oldenburg coined the term third place. It's where we gather, apart from home and work in a spirit of camaraderie and joviality, and we enjoy one another's company. And experts say these third places are crucial for health and happiness. From London, Debbie Laliberté Rudman is a distinguished university professor in the School of Occupational Therapy at Western University. Corey Horowitz is an associate and senior urban planner at dialogue. Saeed Yasin is a cultural programmer and founder of It's Okay Studios. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us in studio. Debbie, thank you for joining us on the line. Said, I'm coming to you first. You have been involved in creating welcoming spaces for much of your career. Tell us about your latest venture. It's okay.

Saeed Yasin: Yeah. It's okay. You know, it was birthed out of, you know, just like a sense of like, not or not feeling, you know, having a space where I could be. And I feel like my, my goal has kind of shifted into becoming like a space provider and a kind of like a hub for community. So I built this thing called it's okay Studios. It started as like a multidisciplinary concert series that would pop up in like various non-traditional venues. And the whole thing was, you know, bringing people into a space for the first time, a space that no community has claimed to where folks who look like me can come in and enjoy a night of music. And it kind of spawned now into having like a physical community hub at the corner of Queen and Augusta, where folks can come in and access space.

Jeyan: One of the questions I think when I saw it's okay, what's the name? What's the story behind it? Because I would say it's awesome. It's better, but it's okay. What does that mean?

Saeed Yasin: Yeah, it's not a great story. I don't know, I worked in restaurants for my, my whole entire life and the heartbeat of a lot of fine dining restaurants in Toronto is the Sri Lankan community. And honestly, I, a lot of times it was like, you know, working with these folks and asking them if they were like, you know, needed support or needed help. And they would just always tell me everything was okay. And depending on the tonality of how they said it, it was either I'm okay, okay, okay, or I'm okay. And it was like, so it's kind of a roundabout name, but that's kind of where it comes from. But, but people have kind of taken it as, as you know, they've seen it and made it their own thing.

Jeyan: I was going to say as a as a Tamil person, I know those stories very well.

Saeed Yasin: Absolutely.

Jeyan: So there you go, Corey, as an urban planner, help me understand, I want to get into your brain here. How do you design a city with public space in mind?

Corey Horowitz: Yeah. So in my work, I think, you know, traditionally it is something we can do to build in, carve out space for, you know, your traditional public spaces like a park, a community centre, a library, what have you, what's more difficult? And also, you know, that's at the scale of site specific development, a single project or a larger long term plan for a neighbourhood. But what's more difficult is defining the quality and the character of these spaces through planning, through urban design. It's getting at like the organic qualities. How do you allow for communities to to kind of appropriate these spaces, to use them in a way that's valuable for them? And, you know, a lot of that has to do with when you're talking about redevelopment, replacement of old buildings. I'll come back to an urban planner cliche mentioning Jane Jacobs, as we often do, the value of old buildings. Cities need old buildings. And I just think that that's a quality that's essential to getting, you know, character filled spaces that are, you know, a sense of place for communities rather than just saying, you know, we're going to put a new community centre here, which we obviously need that stuff as well.

Jeyan: I imagine public consultation, part of the process, understanding sort of the community as well.

Corey Horowitz: Yeah. And I think like the more directly you can engage with the public in communities and have their, their needs, their priorities feed into a plan for a new project or a design and, you know, direct community action. You know, we're seeing a lot of community grassroots groups, non-profit groups, things like community land trusts coming up as ways to more directly define what communities need.

Jeyan: Debbie. Your research looks at sort of what's at stake in terms of, you know, when local businesses close and communities lose those third places, what exactly what exactly does happen?

Debbie Laliberté Rudman: Well, I think there's a lot of evidence to tell us that these places where people and communities can come together and feel connected are really important to individual and community health. And I think that's really what's at stake. A 2023 US Surgeon general's report really pointed to social connectedness as sort of this such an important predictor of the health of communities. So community vitality, social cohesion, but a really underappreciated thing. And it really pointed to the kinds of social infrastructures we need for people to come together and not feel lonely. And there's a lot of evidence to show that a significant proportion of populations do feel lonely. And the US surgeon General actually estimated that feeling lonely most of the time. Is this harmful to health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day? So I think, you know, the health effects as well as that effect on community vitality are what's at stake.

Jeyan: Help me understand, Debbie. Where does the responsibility lie in creating those spaces as we have, you know, say, grassroots, you know, we have an urban planner, but where does whose role is that?

Debbie Laliberté Rudman: Well, I think it's all about partnerships. And I really, in listening to the other two panel members, this idea of the community being part of this, the idea of appropriating spaces, so communities having some latitude and freedom to create the spaces that work for them, rather than this kind of predetermined top down. But because I think of the impacts on health and social vitality and community safety, this is also a role for municipalities as well as at the provincial level, where those responsibilities lie and thinking about how can the funding be created, how can the zoning be created that supports this kind of community space?

Jeyan: So you'd help me understand a little bit of the challenges in terms of, you know, getting a space off the ground. You've been in this space for a couple of years now.

Saeed Yasin: Yeah, we've been here for four years. Yeah. I mean, building a community space, a DIY space is like, no, no, easy endeavour. It is definitely there's like, no, no money in it. The roadmap is confusing and a lot of times these spaces are precarious. Even in the space that we're in currently, it's we were only able to access it because it's going to become a park. So, you know, we have had this kind of funny meanwhile lease and we've been able to kind of like make things work while we've had the space. But yeah, the challenges are many, I think. I don't think people really understand the, the need for these spaces. I don't think like on a, on, on a, on a deep level, you know, the space, the feeling of, you know, not belonging, not having a safe space to go to isn't top of mind for a lot of folks who have the decision power to, you know, to, to be able to create through ways for these spaces to exist. So it's not a priority, I don't think, you know, and so the, the burden is left for, you know, community members who a lot of times, you know, it's like a trauma response, you know, creating these spaces, like building something that you wish you had when you were younger. And it's okay. It's definitely something that I wish I had when I was younger.

Jeyan: Corey, I understand you're a music fan, and when an independent music venue like Toronto, Sneaky Dave, which has been a launch pad for many, many bands and musicians, is at risk of redevelopment, what dies with it?

Corey Horowitz: Yeah, I think the challenge with that is what is the replacement or how do you come close to even replacing the value of something that has developed over decades, like a sneaky Dee's? You know, some people might look at it and say it's a dive bar, but it was a lot more than that. There was a lot of nuance to the programming. It offered a performance venue, you know, trivia nights, whatever it may be. And I think when you redevelop on a site like that, and presumably what's coming in is, you know, a tall condo or apartment building and, you know, we need housing. I wouldn't argue otherwise, but trying to replicate or replace that kind of space in a shiny new building to me is, is a big part of the challenge. And so it's like, can you imagine Sneaky Dee's being even in the podium of a new building like that? And I think there are some tools that are starting to emerge, you know, through the city of Toronto, for example, through community driven initiatives that Recognize and protect the value of of those spaces. But to me, it's what you lose. I mean, it's the texture of a community. It's that organic sense of place. It's, you know, it becomes more homogeneous when this happens over and over again on a, on a block or in a neighbourhood. Right?

Jeyan: So you help me understand a little bit more in sort of detail the challenges for communities. You talked about, you know, you wish you had a place like, it's okay when people are calling to inquire about the space that you are offering, what are the challenges of finding space? What do you hear from them being like, okay, you know, we're happy that this place exists. We haven't been able to find one.

Saeed Yasin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, there's financial barriers. You know, there's, you know, things are expensive, especially coming out of the pandemic, you know, especially for, for musicians, like the amount of times I've heard, you know, oh, I booked this venue, they're taking a cut of my door. There's a bar minimum and a rental fee. And they're like, this is not sustainable, you know? And so, so there's financial just just respect, you know, I'm going to a space, I have the money to pay for it. But they treat me as if, you know, I need to earn their respect and I'm not a paying patron. And so I think what people get when they come to me is like, you know, someone who understands, you know, I've been in those shoes a countless amount of times. So many that those memories are just like burrowed into my brain, you know, of just times I was treated less than. And so, yeah, I mean, those are two, I think two of the two of the main ones. But and also just like flex space, I don't think we have enough of that in the city where it could be a music venue, it could also be an art gallery. I think spaces, a lot of times are kind of boxed in into one thing. And a lot of those times, those people who offer space can't see their spaces beyond, you know, we are a music venue, we are a art gallery. So, you know, I think flexibility is something also that is missing.

Jeyan: Debbie. As you noted, you know, the pandemic highlighted a lot and we haven't necessarily recovered from those years. What are your concerns with how cities are sort of filling in the gaps when it comes to third places? Will there be a day when we don't have necessarily third spaces?

Debbie Laliberté Rudman: Well, I think. We have to Recognize the importance of them more than we do at this point in time. And I think it's also that intersection of spatial precarity and social precarity. So it's also thinking about third places for whom and for what. So, you know, that idea of flex spaces works really well because different communities might enter that space for different reasons and for different forms of connection. So thinking kind of outside of the box, I think the other big threat is the commercialisation of a lot of third places and the sort of big commercialisation. So the loss of things like local diners or local clubs during the pandemic and this sort of entry point of these larger kind of homogeneous businesses that really don't deal with those barriers, like affordability or various forms of discrimination that people might be facing. So I think it's looking at those intersections of spatial and social precarity. And we know that there are particular groups in society who are at much higher risk of experiencing social disconnectedness, such as older adults who are low income or persons who are gender diverse. And so thinking about youth as another group. So thinking about the groups that are at risk of social precarity, and then thinking about what spaces actually exist for them to connect.

Jeyan: Corey, what does success look like? When I think of an urban planner, I think of it sort of front loaded where you are in the planning stages, consultation process, how does this all look? But what does success actually look like for an urban planner?

Corey Horowitz: Tough question. It's it's a project to project consideration and it's a matter of scale. But ultimately I, if I could simplify it, it's having a sort of a complete mix of uses on a project. So if you're, you know, if you're talking at the neighbourhood level, obviously that can involve a number of different land uses, not just having, you know, a bunch of residential towers, but having the supplementary spaces, community spaces, parks, libraries, and having those more flexible spaces that can be, like we've said, appropriated by the community, whether that be indoor, you know, event spaces available or just sort of less fully programmed type spaces that can be adapted over time. So I think it's just, you know, I think about a complete community lens.

Jeyan: Is there and we can look at it sort of across the province. Is there an example of a place that you look at and be like, I wish we did that more.

Corey Horowitz: As in like.

Jeyan: In terms? In terms, yeah. In terms of this community, in terms of a third place, in terms of all of these all meshing together.

Corey Horowitz: I mean, so I come from a place of a strong interest in affordable housing and inclusive communities. And I think of the Saint Lawrence neighbourhood in Toronto often just in the way that they have a very liveable kind of scale. It's dense in terms of the population, but it's a high quality design, and it has, you know, a massive linear park space that gets used in different ways. It has recreational uses built in. It has like connect mobility connections for pedestrians, for cycling. It's just that that jumble, that that great mix that we often look for. And it's something that can't be replicated, it seems on a lot of projects, partly because of, you know, it received at the time a lot of provincial funding for one thing, for to have a mix of housing types and affordability levels.

Jeyan: So as you mentioned, community has really resonated with it's okay. And the space there, I'm curious in terms of the roadblocks and challenges in creating more third third spaces or places, what would you be telling policymakers, you know, or levels of government when it comes to? I think money is one thing for sure, but what are some of the roadblocks that you've hit that you think could be addressed with these decision makers?

Saeed Yasin: Yeah. I mean, you know, arts funding is being cut. We know that. And I think opening up more, more funding for for physical spaces, you know, we're losing spaces just kind of across the board. And I think, yeah, creating more throughways for, for, yeah, for also just like grassroots and small midsize arts organisations or community organisations to access funding, you know, you look at who gets money and a lot of times it's just kind of these like big organisations that get money year after year after year after year. And I don't think anyone ever examines like, you know, the, the output or the, the work that's being done at, you know, with those organisations, it's kind of just like they've been historically funded. And I think someone needs to start looking at, you know, the, the impact because when you invest in a small or midsize Organization, the, the output is so, so, so, so much more, you know, like the amount of things that we've been able to do. Our space is honestly just so remarkable to me. Every day, you know, that people have been able to do their thing for the first time, you know what I mean? And, you know, put together their first gallery, their first concert, their first activation, you know what I mean? And those opportunities are few and far between. And so I think just like looking at how we can fund folks who are everything kind of bubbles from the underground to, you know what I mean? So if you're investing in these small things, they become big things eventually and it's okay, kind of has become a big thing. But it started as like a little baby thing, you know?

Jeyan: Very good. Debbie, I am curious, you talked a little bit about it, but how do we move forward with sort of balancing having places to hang out and linger and not feel like I have to order a drink and you keep the things flowing, but also making sure that there's there's a balance with the economic pressure that, you know, those small businesses do have money to, to sort of pay their rent at the, at the end of the month.

Debbie Laliberté Rudman: Yeah. Well, I think there's, there's room for diverse kinds of third places. And some of them might be connected to that profit motive in that, that kind of business motive and others might not be. And so to me, it's not the idea of only having like profit driven third places, but also not negating profit driven third places, but also thinking about not for profits or places where it really is about that low cost option. And the endpoint isn't profit, which may seem a bit out of the box. But I think when we think about public places, we have to think about the fact that they they don't necessarily need to be commercialised places. And as an occupational therapist, I'm also thinking about spaces for doing right spaces that draw people in to do things together. So to me, it's not just about spaces to socialise, but it's often that that doing element that draws people in, whether it's an art based place or cafe or a place where people come together to play cards, or a place where people come together to do exercise together in a public park. To me, it's that bringing people together through this draw of something they all want to do together is the most important thing. And then thinking about a balance between sort of commercialised third places and then non-commercial third places.

Jeyan: Well, I hope this was a third place for all three of you today. I know that you guys have busy schedules, but I really appreciate your time, your insights on this. Debbie Cori said, thank you so much.

Guests: Thanks so much.

Guests: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Jeyan: Organisers are starting petitions and filling committee rooms at Toronto City Hall. Their goal to save one of the city's legendary dive bars, Sneaky Dee's. George CEO Montrose is the general manager of Sneaky Dee's, and he joins me from the second floor of Sneaky Dee's. How are you doing, George?

George Montrose: I'm doing well today. Thank you. How are you?

Jeyan: I'm doing well. All right. Help us understand sort of what we've seen over the headlines is this outpouring of support from Sneaky Dee fans over the last couple of weeks. What has it been like to see so much love?

George Montrose: Well, it's really been kind of incredible. We know we've you know, we know where we stand in, you know, in the local music scene and in the community in general. But it's it's really incredible to see it all unfold like this. And, you know, it's been, it's been really good because we've been part of a conversation that I guess has to exist in Toronto these days. And, and we, we're definitely very happy.

Jeyan: Tell me about that conversation. What have we seen in terms of sports? I know people have been wearing pins. People have been speaking at City Hall. But when you talk about sort of that conversation that we are seeing here in the city, what are you talking about?

George Montrose: Well, it's I mean, the larger conversation is obviously the loss of like, you know, cultural spaces in Toronto, independent music venues, independent restaurants, just sort of the corporatisation of the city and where it all goes from here and what role people power is going to play in it. Right?

Jeyan: I want to I want to talk about sort of that connection that a lot of Torontonians and people outside of the city that have with Sneaky Dee's. Why do people feel so strong about your business?

George Montrose: I mean, with us in particular, I've always felt that that people think this is their place, whether it's their first time here or they've been coming here for years, they feel comfortable and at home they get to see something unique here. Not to say that that doesn't exist in other parts of the city, but because we've been around so long, it's very it's very much a part of Toronto in general.

Jeyan: As you mentioned, you know, Sneaky Dee's is one of the only independent music venues in the city not operated by Live Nation. What does that tell us about its long history in Toronto's music scene?

George Montrose: It just means that we're I mean, we still we're still a place where people can go and see, you know, local bands for, you know, relatively inexpensive, you know, ticket prices and beer prices. And that's sort of it's something that's sort of vanishing from the landscape of the city as it's getting harder and harder for young bands to break in. There's less spaces where they could come up and develop in, you know, there are a few places left. But, you know, prior to the pandemic and then post-pandemic, there are fewer and fewer. They seem to be. Not as embraced by the city at large by, by, by city council, let's say. But the the citizens definitely require that and need that in their lives. And we fill that gap, and we hope to continue filling that. For a long time.

Jeyan: You were talking about City Hall. So I have to ask, where do we stand right now with the business, with the business's future? I know that this is a conversation that you guys have had to sort of deal with at once in 2020, and here we are again. But where do we stand with sort of the redevelopment project?

George Montrose: I mean, as it stands right now, it's still going to go to a vote to the city. And in July, you know, we have to prepare for all sorts of inevitabilities. You know, we we hope to keep, you know, pending approval of development. We hope to keep operating. We hope that if the if the property is developed, that we return here and we're able to operate once again in our in what's become our neighbourhood for the last almost 40 years. But we have to prepare for. The possibility that we might have to move somewhere in the interim, or possibly permanently.

Jeyan: Have you started to look in terms of locations across the city? I know a lot of people look at that corner and say, that's it's it's that is that.

George Montrose: Corner thing. Like, it's hard to come down to Little Italy or Kensington Market and not notice the sneaky Dee's just standing there because it's been there for almost 40 years. But we wouldn't we definitely would want to stay in the neighbourhood. But you know, the real estate in Toronto is it's not easy. Spaces are increasingly expensive. We'll see. We'll see what happens. You know, it's we we have to sort of take a wait and see approach.

Jeyan: You know, you talk about the musicians and sort of the the need for spaces like that. I remember, I don't know, I think when I was in high school, I remember there's probably still, you know, my name etched on a table or on a wall or in the bathroom or something like that. But if the city, you know, if councillors do decide to accept the redevelopment plans, what does the city lose in that case? Not just as a music venue, but a third space for a lot of people just to kind of, you know, have a beer and have some very well-priced nachos.

George Montrose: You know, I've heard a lot of people describe this place as their second home. I've heard some people describe it as their first home. And I feel like, you know, the I don't want to overstate what we are, but, you know, I, I let our customers and I let our fans and I let you know, the bands that play music here and the sort of cultural events that happen. I let them sort of describe what they feel about it. And to quote some of them, you know, it's it's going to be a loss. It's, it's, again, exceedingly difficult to find spaces like this where people, you know, can form communities and feel like they're a part of something when, you know, in a, in a, in an isolating world, in a world of, you know, TikTok and Instagram, this is the kind of place where people can come and just hang out and have well-priced nachos and cheap beer and watch a local band. So it's all those things, you know.

Jeyan: Now, you had mentioned that, you know, for some people, this is not just their second home, but their first home, which also makes me think of, you know, this sneaky Dees is a family run business. What is it like, you know, to, to be able to say that, you know, you are an institution and that you see that sort of community outpouring?

George Montrose: Well, I mean, it, it feels very special because, I mean, my father and his brothers started this in back in 1987, actually in a different location on Bloor Street across the street from Honest Ed's, which is also gone. But the and, you know, and I grew up in this business and like, as much as it feels like home to me, I understand where people are coming from when they say this is their first home and it's, you know, it's, it's unfortunate, but it might be inevitable. But, you know, at the end of the day, the heart of what is Sneaky Dee's is going to remain and possibly move to somewhere else or might be right back in this exact space. I, I tend to be on the optimistic side, especially when I see like an outpouring of support.

Jeyan: George, we're going to have to leave it there. But I appreciate your time. Wish you all the best in in the sort of the next steps here and I hope I was talking to a fellow producers here that hope we can get some nachos and beer soon, so we might make a trip.

George Montrose: If you can't find where you wrote your name, you'll have to just do it again.

Jeyan: There we go. All right. Really appreciate it. Take care. George.

George Montrose: Okay. Thank you very much. Have a great day.

Jeyan: I'm Jeyan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. I have a question for you. What are your favourite third places? Where do you spend your time when you're not at work or at home? Let us know. Send your suggestions and feedback to rundown@TVO.org or as always, leave us a comment on our YouTube page. Until then, I will see you tomorrow.