Host: Jennifer Pagliaro is the Toronto Star's crime reporter and has been following this story closely. And she joins me in studio. How are you doing?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Good. Thanks so much for having me.

Host: There is a lot to uncover here. We are learning a bit more about the officers and the civilians involved. Give us the latest.

Jennifer Pagliaro: So we just reported that some of the officers were involved in a little bit more detailed allegations from the police that they, one of them was involved with a civilian who's also charged as part of this project, helping advise her on how to install a GPS tracker on another woman's car. It allegedly damaged her car, and that woman also felt harassed when she was followed using this tracker. And ultimately, police say she feared for her safety. Now, a Toronto police officer is charged jointly with a civilian in that allegation, which is, I think, shocking to a lot of people.

Host: And I'm. Correct me if I'm wrong. Was there a gun also found as well?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yes. The civilian had a very old model gun that she was allegedly keeping in a unlocked drawer inside of an envelope in her residence, which she was charged with carelessly storing. We're not sure how she got the gun. If the officer participated in helping her in any way. He's not charged with that, but of course, concerning nonetheless.

Host: And there was another officer, something closely related to insurance fraud or something with a car. What do we know?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah, there's an officer who allegedly counselled one of his associates on how he could help have that car stolen so that that person could claim an illegal insurance fraud on the stolen car, which would have been a setup, essentially. We know that the person whose name is on that court record, that name is also known to us as being one of the Peel Region police officers who is suspended but not criminally charged. No one would confirm that they're the same person. But of course, that name has popped up now on the court record, and that person allegedly never went through with the stealing insurance fraud scheme. And so that's why that person's not criminally charged. But the officer involved, Sergeant Robert Black, is charged with counselling him on how to commit insurance fraud.

Host: All right. We were making the comment that it feels like this is an onion just being, you know, we're peeling and seeing the layers. There's a lot to it. I want to take a step back just to kind of make sure we have all of the details here at the moment. How many officers have been charged and with what if you can give us sort of some of the more extreme charges versus some of the lesser ones?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah. So seven active duty Toronto police officers were charged, as well as one retired police officer. The interesting bit there is he and his son are co-accused in this case. His son only has around four years on the force and they're charged with a host of things. Some of the more serious charges is the officers are actually charged themselves in trafficking drugs, not just in aiding in that criminal activity, as well as accepting bribes and searching police databases, essentially leaking personal information that's on these confidential databases to known alleged criminals who were then disseminating it. And we know that has led to a series of crimes, including conspiracy to commit a murder against a Toronto jail official and also a shooting various homes through the GTA.

Host: Fair to say the conspiracy to commit murder. The most serious charge on that list.

Jennifer Pagliaro: It is.

Host: All right. The now we do. You had mentioned Peel police as well. Three officers who have been suspended, not criminally charged. Do we know anything on that if that's going to turn into anything?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah. Well, we got a bit of a clue recently with that name that we saw that may have been involved in the insurance fraud. We don't know too much about what these other officers are alleged to have done, or whether they're just under suspicion at this time and have been suspended pending investigation. We just know that they don't have criminal charges, and we're not sure if they will warrant criminal charges, but we're watching that very closely.

Host: In terms of the precincts, throw out some numbers. Obviously, for a lot of reviewers, they probably won't know where they are, but just a general description of where where they are.

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah. So most of these officers, the active officers were assigned to divisions in sort of the northwest part of the city. So in the Black Creek North York areas, there was one officer assigned to a down like a right downtown core division. We know that some of the officers were working at the same divisions, 12 division that's in that Black Creek area. So we're still piecing together how all of the officers may have known one another or came to know one another. In the past, for example, we've been able to figure out that some of the officers who have all been sort of 19 years of service between them, may have graduated from police college together. And they also worked at 12 Division together early in their careers. So perhaps those relationships were maintained. We're still trying to understand what those allegations are and what the conspiracy is on at a big picture level.

Host: All right. I want to talk about one constable whose name really surfaced in the beginning, Constable Tim Barnhart. Who is he? What have we learning more of?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah. So he's one of those 12 division officers. He's been on the force for 19 years. He's been a constable that whole time, which means typically at a division you're like a rogue cop. You go out to nine, 11 calls or anything that requires your attention. He is one of those officers who is himself charged with trafficking in drugs. He is an officer who we know is alleged to have leaked the address of the jail official, who then these alleged criminals tried to kill. Okay. And we also know that he is involved in other alleged conspiracies, such as trying to protect illegal pot shops in the city. We know cannabis was legalized. There are still issues with illegal marijuana, and so there's a whole host of allegations of obstructing justice, falsely accusing people trafficking in drugs, as I said, and that involvement in the eventual conspiracy to commit murder.

Host: Now, I know at the press conference when Toronto police unveiled the investigation, there were questions posed to Project South ties to the tow truck wars that have been in the headlines for quite a while in GTA. What do we know? Is there is there a stronger connection there? What do we know about that?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah, we were sort of surprised when the press conference happened. My colleague Abby O'Brien was there, and she's been covering this tow truck issue a lot, and we Recognized one of the names of the civilians. That person was previously arrested for the incidents. I mentioned shooting up various houses in the GTA, including in Vaughan. One of those houses allegedly belongs to a so-called kingpin in this tow truck industry, which, you know, your viewers may have seen, as you mentioned, that there's been a lot of infighting to the extent of, you know, calling it a war. Shootings back and forth repeatedly in these locations, home addresses, tow truck yards. It's been really problematic.

Host: One has to ask. And this was a question that was asked at that press conference as well. But have any criminal cases been compromised because of the probe into police corruption?

Jennifer Pagliaro: We've been actively searching that out. We've been talking to criminal defence lawyers to find that out. So far, I haven't heard of any cases falling apart, but I think it's still a little bit early days for that. And that is obviously a huge concern.

Host: All right. We mentioned Ontario's Inspectorate of Policing is launching a review into all police departments across Ontario. Does that mean the problem goes beyond just a few bad apples? Obviously this case here is really tied into the GTA for the most part. But does this problem go beyond that?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah, I think it's a valid question. I'm personally really curious to see what the inspector general finds. I don't think we have any allegations beyond this Toronto Police Department. And, you know, those three Peel officers who have not been criminally charged. However, there are some bigger questions about supervision, the way police have access to sensitive information and just overall, their ability to be incentivised to work with this, these criminal entities. And I think it's worth exploring. Of course, I'll be very interested to know how deeply they go on the Toronto police force and whether they uncover any more systemic issues with that force.

Host: Let's talk reaction. Political leaders, of course, have been quick to jump on sort of their thoughts on here, police unions as well. How are they reacting so far?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Well, there were some questions about whether Toronto Police Chief Myron Demkiw was going to face questions of leadership so far, talking to people behind the scenes. I'm not seeing any strong calls or any calls at all, really, from the mayor's office, from the police board that oversees the force or from the union, who often has a lot of negative things to say about policing management. So I think for now, Demkiw is not taking the fall for this. He seems to be taking it relatively seriously. But of course, the investigation as we know, is not over. So we're just waiting to see how that plays out politically.

Host: You mentioned Chief Demkiw. Obviously this is a big hit to public trust. And so I am curious, what are members of the public saying? You know, it wasn't that long ago when there were calls for defunding the police. We are talking we are in the midst of budgets. So, you know, these are usually pretty high up there when we talk about the money allocated to salaries for police. But what are the public saying?

Jennifer Pagliaro: Yeah, I think like we've seen such a huge shift in attitudes toward policing over the last decade and especially over the last five years. And I think it this investigation, I think, for a lot of people, validates what they felt was already happening in terms of corrupt policing. Now, I don't think anyone really knew specifically that this was going on or could have predicted this. I certainly didn't, but I think it's reinforcing a lot of negative opinions about policing. And that's a huge mountain for Demkiw and the service as a whole to overcome. And they have a lot of work to do to already repair a fractured trust in policing.

Host: You have been on the crime beat for a bit here. I got to ask, has there been anything like this in Toronto police history or in just in the stories that you have covered in general? We are just at the beginning here. Yeah. Have you seen anything like this?

Jennifer Pagliaro: No, I honestly couldn't have imagined anything like this. You know, the night that we were starting to hear the initial rumours and then were able to confirm seven officers accused as part of a massive York police investigation. It's just never happened. It's unprecedented. We're in uncharted territory, and we're still waiting to see how far this goes. I asked chief Demkiw if he expected more arrests of his members, and he said he didn't want to speculate on what the investigation would bring. So we're tuning in to see what happens next.

Host: All right. As will we. Jennifer, thank you very much. Really appreciate your time.

Jennifer Pagliaro: Thank you so much for having me.