Host: ♪ Jessica Smith Cross is Editor in Chief of the Trillium, and Salvatore Cusumano is the Executive Director of Transparency International Canada. Great to have you both here. Salvatore, great to have you back. Thank you. Alright, Jessica, I'm going to ask you to set the table for us. What is the government proposing to change in the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, also known as FIPPA.

Jessica Smith Cross: >> Okay. Right now, members of the public, journalists, activists, opposition parties can request information from the government, request documents from the government. You can get them from civil servants. You can also get them from ministers offices. Now, there's like a whole bunch of exclusions of types of records that you cannot get. Stuff like this would disclose personal information about somebody this would, you know, impair national security or business interests. But right now you can ask for documents, you get some of them back. What they're going to do moving forward is that documents that are in ministers offices, so like the political stuff, the ministers, their staff, their parliamentary assistants, the Premier and his staff, all that is going to be off limits to the public.

Host: >> One of the questions that a lot of people are asking is why now? Why is the government making these changes? Can you give us some insight?

Jessica Smith Cross: >> Well, the government themselves has given us some pretty good insight. They're not just making this change going forward thinking, you know, this is the way things should be. >> We're crawling back. >> Yeah, they're going back. They're making it retroactive. So all of the requests and battles for records that are going on right now between journalists in this government, between the opposition party and the governments, are basically going to get trampled on. And there are some very high profile ones and some that are less high profile, that are all aimed at information that the government are pretty sure doesn't want out there. There's stuff about the greenbelt scandal. There's stuff about the Skills Development fund issue you may have read about, and there's a request for the Premier's phone records that seems to have personally been offside with him that he doesn't want them disclosed.

Host: >> Alright, Salvatore, before I get your reaction, I should mention we did invite the Minister of Public and Business Service Delivery and Procurement, Steven Crawford, to join our program. His office declined, but did refer to some statements that the minister and the Premier made. So I'm just going to read part of their press release. It reads after nearly 40 years, we are modernizing Ontario's privacy protections and bringing the province's technology practices into the 21st century. It goes on to read these updates will strengthen cybersecurity, protect cabinet confidentiality and ensure responsible modern governance. Salvatore, your thoughts? The word modern modern-ization shows up a lot in there. Does that do this? What are your thoughts on the changes?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> I think the answer to that question is no. If you wanted to modernise the system, we think there are many things that you could do to to achieve that without introducing the kind of sweeping exceptions that they're proposing. I think the best way that I could describe what we think is that we think there's a right to information. In my Organization, Transparency International, not just that information should be accessible or free, but that actually, as citizens, we have a right to it. The best way to describe it is. And again, if you're talking about modernization, if you if you were the owner of a company or just a shareholder and you wanted to get certain information from your employees, you know, you're trusting them to run the company on a daily basis. If they were to refuse you access to certain records saying, well, you know, it's on a private cell phone that I have, or, you know, there's simply too many emails for us to get that information for you. You'd say, well, you need to come up with a system that works for this day and age. And as the owner or shareholder, I have a right to that information. In our democracy, we're the owners, we're the shareholders, and it's our government that serves us. And so we think that if you're going to modernise, yeah, get with the times. But there are many things that could be done without having to resort to what Jessica's mentioned.

Host: >> Alright. Ontario's 25th Premier Kathleen Wynne, recently wrote an op ed for your website about FOI changes. Freedom of information changes. Can you give us an idea of the gist of what she had to say?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> Yeah, it was really interesting to me. I had done a podcast with her and she mentioned sort of in passing that she had had some very uncomfortable FOI requests when she was in the Premier. So she was the Premier for the tail end of the gas plant scandal was the Sudbury by election, and opposition party FOI requests had played a big part in these. And despite having to go through those things as the Premier, she sort of said, this is the price you pay for power and it's worth it. And what these changes will do will erode our democracy. I thought it was pretty powerful.

Host: >> Did she say as did she have any idea as to why this government is making those changes?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> I think she's on board with what everyone who has seen the changes thinks by focusing on that retroactive stomping, on the requests that are out there, that that is the reason why this is happening.

Host: >> Alright. Now, I should mention, we also invited the Information and Privacy Commissioner Patricia Kosseim, but she was unavailable. I did want to read. She had written an op ed in the Globe and Mail, and it reads, in a world of weakening democracies, dwindling confidence in government and rampant misinformation, Ontario should be working to strengthen privacy and access to information rules, increase transparency and uphold the integrity of its public institutions. Instead, the provincial government is taking us back to the Dark Ages. Salvatore, are we heading into the Dark Ages?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> I would hope not. You know, we're a non-partisan Organization. And so I think it's really interesting that we get the example of what happened under a previous provincial administration, because as you can see, these are principles that transcend who's in government. They're they're out. Right. So I would start with that. Now, we have seen attacks on the right to information around the world. Transparency International has 100 chapters around the world. We're just one of them. And my colleagues, when they saw this, said, you need to push back against any incremental erosion of that, right? Because after it's gone, it's very hard to get back, you know, this kind of thing. It's like Jessica said, it is a very useful way for citizens to be able to exert an independent check on a government's power, particularly during times in our parliamentary democracy when we have a majority government. You know, that was the case under previous Liberal governments. And we can see that keeping these standards up did a very good job at exposing some serious wrongdoing in those previous administrations. So we would say this is good for everyone. Let's keep it strong going forward, because you never know who's going to come into power. I don't want to talk too much about the states, but you just need to look south to see what happens when you start chipping away at those foundations.

Host: >> Jessica, I'll get your take on that as well. You know, in the statement we talked about, you know, weakening democracies around the world. We talk about the states and looking around and sort of the landscape there. But what are your thoughts on on her comment is what Salvatore had to say.

Jessica Smith Cross: >> Yeah, I think the problem when a change like this happens is that once one government does it, it's really it's much harder for the next one. Whoever comes in, whatever it happens, to go back and put that right back. I think the parallel I see is with government advertising in Ontario. You know, we had the previous government, the Liberal government, weaken those standards where you could spend taxpayer money on like partisan government ads. Right. And the next government came in promising, oh, that was terrible that the Liberals did that. We're going to return it to the higher standards and never has. And I am afraid that the same sort of thing is going to happen with this changes, that even if one day there's a new government, even though the opposition parties today are saying that this is terrible, that when push comes to shove, they won't do it.

Host: >> Alright. I think there is a perception out there, journalists or journalists, that we are the ones making a lot of these FOI requests. Help me understand. Is that the case and who are making these requests?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> There are all kinds of people making these requests and for all different kinds of reasons. There are some sort of routine ones that are done in like the business world and for real estate reasons and stuff like that, that make up a lot of the numbers, opposition parties for the politically sensitive ones that are getting targeted, though it does seem to be opposition parties, journalists, and like non-profit activist groups that are the biggest problem for the government here, the ones that are at the minister's office level, they're targeting.

Host: >> I should mention, according to the Information and Privacy Commissioner, Ontario processed just over 27,000 provincial FOI requests. Only 4% were from the media. So there you go. I want to raise of hands how many we have. We filed FOI requests in our in our past.

Host: >> How many hands can I.

Jessica Smith Cross: >> That's fair.

Host: >> Yes. You can raise my hands. There we are.

Host: >> Can you walk us through the process of filing an FOI?

Jessica Smith Cross: >> Sure. Yeah. Okay. If you're filing it to a provincial ministry, which is what most of mine are, I cover Queen's Park. There's a website with an online form. You fill out what ministry where, who you are. You describe the the records that you're looking for as best you can. You pay $5 online and off it goes. That is fairly modern. And so when they talk about modernization, I'm like, okay, that part's good. After that, we're talking paper checks and stuff. I have to go and buy stamps and envelopes to mail a check to the government of this day and age. They could change that. Anyhow, after that point, you get in touch with a coordinator who works in the ministry you've asked for the records from. They might clarify the request. What exactly are you looking for? Give you a back and forth, and they'll give you sort of an estimate of the time it will take to get you the records. This could be supposed to be relatively quick, but it rarely is. And if it's complex, it can take a lot longer. They can give you a notice for a time extension. I've had some nearly up to a year with some of our requests. They also give you a cost. So if you're if getting your records takes a lot of staff time, you're expected to pay for that. And there's like a schedule of fees for that. We've had some that are like 20 bucks and some that are thousands of dollars.

Host: >> Wow. Speaking of changes to timelines, right now it's about is it 30 days and it's moving into what?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> They are extending the timelines. I think it's the 30 is going to 45. They're changing the way the business records are counted.

Jessica Smith Cross: >> I think it adds up to about 60 plus. It's almost.

Salvatore Cusumano: >> They're making they're giving themselves more time.

Host: >> Got it. Okay. Salvatore wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about Transparency International's corruption index where Canada, you know, wasn't doing too well all low in 2025. How do freedom of information laws protect democracies against corruption?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> They they do it in many ways. And I'll start with one that's really important, which is that they actually allow governments to identify wrongdoing within their own ranks. Sometimes information comes out on the initiative of a citizen or a journalist that actually the government would have been well placed to know and that we've seen in many cases around the world. Another way is that you are really putting yourself to the test when you fulfill these freedom of information requests. And what we see around the world is that freedom of information requests the right to information, when properly implemented, can strengthen trust between citizens and the government, because there's often better service delivery from the government to citizens. When citizens know how money is being managed, they know better how to access services, and the government feels more responsive to citizens. Those are two really important ways that are that are hard to quantify, but that we see worldwide.

Host: >> Jessica, you talked about a few things that are of interest. You know, when we talk about FOI, what government decisions are you personally worried about will no longer be FOI able if these changes are made?

Jessica Smith Cross: >> Okay, some of them that I have right now that are going to be affected might be a place to start. So I made an FOI request about the greenbelt scandal. It was shortly after the Auditor General released her report in 2023. I have been in back and forth at an IPC appeal trying to get these records about who met who for this investment opportunity thing that the Auditor General has mentioned. Anyhow, I am in the very end stages of getting an order from the IPC, has issued an order to release 200 records. But what was going on in that scandal? They they all have to do with the Minister's office. But lobbyists were having meetings, stuff like that. If this goes through, I won't get that information. So like, people do care about the greenbelt. People cared a lot when that scandal was raging in Ontario politics. I'm still trying to figure out who was meeting who and what went into it. It's still under police investigation. This does this does matter. We have other, more mundane requests, like we ask for ministers calendars so we know who they've been talking to so we know what they're up to. It's just stuff like that.

Host: >> Do we know when this would be put into place? I know that you've got timelines that you know you're itching. Will we get these documents before? But do we know when.

Salvatore Cusumano: >> We don't know exactly. The government has not time allocated the bill yet as we record this, that this is in part of an omnibus budget bill. They've tabled it. They're debating it. They seem to be moving fast. We don't know if it's going to go through the committee stage yet or not. In the past they have skipped committee so soon, though the upshot is soon.

Host: >> It should be. I should mention that the government did say that 95% of public service records will still remain FOI, so there is still a large chunk of information that still should would be.

Jessica Smith Cross: >> Yeah, yeah.

Host: >> Okay. Salvatore, the Premier said that the changes will bring Ontario in line with other provinces. So help us understand and with federal government practices as well, we like to compare ourselves with other provinces. Is this true or do we stack up against it? Are these more sweeping changes?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> I think what's not clear is that other provinces have the type of sweeping exceptions that would be codified. If this legislation goes through. It is a bit of a mosaic of laws across the country, with some provinces subjecting government entities and ministries, ministers to a greater extent of transparency. We could say I would say that Ontario has a pretty good framework in place. Some provinces are have moved back a little bit. We saw some changes, for example, in Alberta last year that that that look similar in some ways to what's being proposed here. But it's not at all clear to me that by introducing this sweeping exception on ministers, for example, lengthening the timelines that you're bringing us in line, I think that's a little bit inaccurate. But again, a lot of it comes down to how the rubber hits the road in practice. And Ontario is not doing better than those other provinces right now in meeting these requests. It's actually doing a little bit worse on some measures. And so to say that is not is not quite the point either, because we want to increase transparency across the board, again, for those benefits that I mentioned to the government and to citizens.

Host: >> Alright. Let's talk a little bit about modernization. Salvatore, I'll start with you. We talked a little bit about it. Obviously Jessica says stamps out of here. We don't need those. We're talking FIPPA was put in 1988. So when we talk about modernization, what could that look like under your under your vision here?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> I mean, I think Jessica mentioned some of the fixes that could come to just how the process works, how citizens can engage with it. I think another point of modernization could be, you know, again, a good law stands the test of time. So I don't know how much a legislator wants to get into, for example, what to do with mobile phones, with with personal cell phones. But clearly that's an issue across public and private life in our country. We're grappling with it in many, many places. And I think that that's something that could be addressed. But whether that's done in the law, I'm not so sure because the law should stand the test of time. And we think, you know, I don't want to speak for Jessica, but we think that there's many good things about that law. If the government wants to introduce changes, for example, around mobile phones, let's do it in a consultative way that that really still protects that right in the law. There are a few other changes you could make, I think, regarding the Information and Privacy Commissioner. I think that looking at the independents and really upholding that independence in a day and age where our democracy is subject to mis and disinformation, politicization and polarization, you'd really want to make sure there's still strong protections there, especially these days. But those are just two things. And I don't know that it requires changing the law.

Host: >> Alright. Jessica, you get the last word here. How do you go about your job now if these changes go through? Don't know yet if there will be a legal challenge, but I would be surprised if there isn't. But yeah, how do you how do you go about.

Jessica Smith Cross: >> We get information a lot of different ways. FOI are a big part of it. Some of our FOI will be killed by this, some won't. So some of the job, the work that we do can be like, let's FOI a data set from a ministry about a long term care home or something, or health care that we can still get. That's still important. I don't want people to think FOI are completely going away, not being able to get that essential information from ministers offices about who they've been meeting and what they've been saying is going to make our job harder. There's also sources, which is we use them now. We may have to rely on them more in the future when it comes to the more political side of the stories that we do.

Host: >> Speaking of legal challenges, have we gotten any word on, if this will happen or if there's anything in the works?

Salvatore Cusumano: >> I think if that is going to happen, it will be after the legislation passes. There's not much a lawyer could do before the bill is actually made law.

Host: >> Alright. Jessica, Salvatore, really appreciate it. Great insights. Thank you so much.

Jessica Smith Cross: >> Thank you, Jeyan.