Nam Kiwanuka: You're listening to mistreated. I'm Nam Kiwanuka. The following conversation is about forced and career sterilization of indigenous women and girls in Canada. On this podcast, we try to give additional context to the topics we discuss. And this conversation requires a longer look at the history and how we got here. But we think it's important, please listen with care. Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the TRC, was meant to bring a fair and lasting resolution to the legacy of residential schools and by extension, Canadian colonialism.

Nam Kiwanuka: Led by the late honorable Murray Sinclair, a former First Nation lawyer, judge, and senator, the commission's main project was to document the experiences of residential school survivors, families, and communities, and to promote reconciliation between non-indigenous and indigenous people in Canada. One of the calls to action from the TRC was for Canada to hold a national inquiry into the crisis of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. That inquiry dealt with a wide range of concerns, including forced and coerced sterilizations.

Nam Kiwanuka: After listening to testimony and reviewing the research, the National Inquiry explained the root of the issue. In the eyes of the colonizer, the longstanding misguided and racist view of First Nations and Matey women as promiscuous, uncchristian, and uncivilized justified the policy of eugenics. Indeed, sterilization was viewed as a way to eventually eliminate the indigenous population entirely.

Nam Kiwanuka: Then, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called it a serious human rights violation. Several class actions have been filed on behalf of indigenous women and girls who were impacted by sterilizations framed as medically necessary. The cases date from the 1970s right up to the present. The 94 calls to action offered by the TRC made important recommendations in relation to improving the provision of health care for indigenous peoples in a culturally sensitive way, including concrete changes to the education system for social workers and doctors. It also recommended hiring more indigenous health care professionals. A number of the 231 calls for justice in the national inquiry also called for recognition of indigenous people's human rights in healthcare and for a system of accountability for healthcare providers.

Nam Kiwanuka: The practice of forced sterilizations has been condemned internationally as well. Prior to the national inquiry, a United Nations special reperator on torture confirmed that forced sterilization is an act of violence and a form of social control and violates a person's right to be free from torture and ill treatment. The raper also called for countries to prohibit forced and coerced sterilizations.

Nam Kiwanuka: Senator Ivonne Buoya heard that call and brought a bill forward in 2025, Bill S228. If passed, this amendment would ensure that forced sterilization would be included in the criminal code of Canada. It would be considered aggravated assault punishable by up to 14 years in prison. Today we're speaking with Harmony Red Sky from the Survivor Circle for reproductive justice. We talk about the history of forest and chorus sterilization. the organization's survivorled initiatives and the push for legislative change to criminalize these violations. Please listen with care. Harmony Redsky joins me now.

Nam Kiwanuka: Could you please introduce yourself?

Harmony Red Sky: Bodami meanwhabendo. My name's Harmony Red Sky. I just introduced myself in Anesnab as center of the Skywoman Eagle Clan from Wasoxine First Nation.

Nam Kiwanuka: Harmony Red Sky, welcome to the podcast. Um, we're here to talk about something that's really difficult to talk about, but something that's important to uh acknowledge and to look at the history of that. Uh before we start talking about that um I wanted to spend time first talking about your organization and what it does. What is a survivor circle for reproductive justice?

Harmony Red Sky: So the survivors circle for reproductive justice is a national notfor-profit organization that was formed as a result of the long and important work that was created by Senator Ivonne Ber. Uh once Senator Ivonne Ber brought the issue to the Senate of Canada, uh there were a number of studies and reports that were carried out and the Senate uh is the place where the bill uh which is now bill S228 was was formed and developed. And those two reports uh that are about forced and core sterilization provided many recommendations around how Canada needed to act in response to this crime, this ongoing issue that that is still persistent in Canada.

Harmony Red Sky: And so that's where the survivor circle for reproductive justice was born. Um, as part of the response to the reports at the time in 2022, the government responded with immediate direct healing supports for survivors. And so, uh, the organization specifically mandated to address the issues of force and core sterilization was born. And so, we launched in 2024, the fall of 2024. And since then, which is like less than two years really, uh since then we have formed a national registry, a national archive, um and outreach to find survivors located across Canada in all parts of Canada that are First Nation, Inuit, and Matei that are female, uh that are male, that are two spirit, LGBTQ plus. And as well uh we have formed a healing support fund that has funded not only individual personal healing but group uh community healing activities as well as assisted reproductive technology.

Nam Kiwanuka: Um you said a uh you mentioned Senator Ber. I want to come back to her and I also want to come back to the bill. But uh before we talk about more about that um you have three pillars that guide the work that you do with the survivors circle. Can you tell us about those?

Harmony Red Sky: So we have a focus very much so on centering survivors and all of the work that we do. So we are survivor directed survivorled. Uh the membership of the registry are the the owners of the o organization. So we're set up in a way that they vote, they decide uh annually what the direction will be for the organization.

Nam Kiwanuka: Why is that?

Harmony Red Sky: Uh well because it it is meant for them, you know the the intention behind the the creation of the organization as well as the healing support funds. So every step of the way from the time we developed the organization until now, survivors have been right there in the development of how the registry would be formed. You know, what would the registry contain? What is important to to keep in a national archive? What are what should the criteria be around the the healing support fund? What streams? What should we fund? All of those questions, we've gone to them and we've asked them and they've told us. So, it's been designed specifically to meet the needs of survivors.

Harmony Red Sky: Um, so this registry will serve to keep a record, as you say, of indigenous people who have been sterilized without consent. Um, I think some people listening might be surprised to hear that this happened in the first place. How far back does this history go and is this something that's still happening um here in this country?

Harmony Red Sky: Right. So the history of forced and core sterilization in Canadian institutions and in in the realm of uh colonization dates back to the 1880s. So the residential school era and it was part of the outcome of the truth and reconciliation commission reports did identify that sterilizations as well as medical experiments, nutritional experiments were uh undertaken on the the children in residential school. So that's

Nam Kiwanuka: that's how the Canadian food guide was developed, right?

Harmony Red Sky: Yes. So that's how the Canadian food guide was developed. So that is the first instance of it. From there um it emerged into eugenics policies that were in place in various provinces here in Canada. It does have a long history uh and it still continues today. So right now what is a typical uh pregnancy, child birth and labor for an indigenous woman might mean that she has to leave her home community, travel sometimes thousands of kilometers to the nearest hospital to deliver her baby and oftent times can't have her family with her traveling with her. And in those instances, that's when women might be the most vulnerable.

Harmony Red Sky: And that's when some of the sterilizations that we have documented and have recorded in the registry have occurred is when women are vulnerable. They're by themselves, their families aren't with them as support people or to be able to be there or a navigator or a language interpreter isn't there. And it's in those situations where uh misunderstanding around the documentation being provided uh other barriers and sometimes not even being asked at all where sterilizations have occurred. So very much a present day issue.

Nam Kiwanuka: Do we know how many people have been sterilized without consent?

Harmony Red Sky: Right now the estimates are somewhere between 12 and 15,000. Uh but what we find is happening every day when we talk about the issue in new places and regions in the country is once people hear the words and start to put together these concepts with what has happened to them in their previous experiences of the health care system. More and more women are self-identifying as being survivors themselves. So the number might be far greater than what has been estimated.

Nam Kiwanuka: That's um that's heartbreaking. So when it happens, some people are not even aware that this is something that happened to them.

Harmony Red Sky: Well, that is just the legacy of you know genocide right against indigenous people where not only have they faced multiple barriers having been survivors of residential school or 60s scoop or all of the other things that have have been a daily occurrence. It's that whole issue of walking in two worlds of going into the health care system to see a doctor, what might be an emergency, what might be a routine procedure and having a completely different outcome than what was anticipated or expected. So just by nature, any any indigenous person trusting the health care system with their health care, you know that there are issues there, real issues. We know Joyce Echaan and the story that has happened there. There are other examples of it in Canada and many survivors who we are working with now who have come forward in the public about what happened to them with this doctor in that hospital in that city in that province and and there will be more.

Harmony Red Sky: There are so many situations where where it has happened and our most recent survivor registered in the the registry was sur was sterilized in 2024. So it's very very common still. There are situations where women were about to give uh give birth or were going into labor in Canada in 2025 where sterilizations were prevented because they knew about the survivor circle for reproductive justice and they knew that they had rights and they knew that it was their choice. And so that's part of the public education work we need to do to ensure that everybody has the the choice and and the right to decide on what will happen to their bodies.

Nam Kiwanuka: So even though this is a difficult conversation to have, it's a necessary one. Um can you help us understand something? Um what's the difference between coerced and forced sterilization?

Harmony Red Sky: So forced sterilization, an example of that would be you are not given any choice. It just happens. There are situations where people have been sedated and under anesthesia where they wake up and it has happened or they have been very physically forced into it by being held down with restraints by being uh held against their will. So there are examples of that kind of forced coerced happens in many different ways and we've actually started to measure and track the various ways in which it happens.

Harmony Red Sky: Some of the most common ways um would be through uh the child welfare system. So, right now, if a woman is delivering and has had children already, the doctor might say, "Oh, well, you've already had three kids or you've already had or you probably can't afford to have more and placed a judgment as well as a criticism on the individual to make her feel bad or feel guilty or to question maybe I don't need any more kids right there on the spot." So, that would be an example of how coercion has occurred. you're not even in the cuz you when you're when you've had a baby there's so many things happening emotions hormones and to have that conversation the timing feels a little

Nam Kiwanuka: Yeah. Yeah.

Harmony Red Sky: So that would be an example in child welfare. It's happened um in other ways where uh particular communities or regions may be more religious and uh and in some instances is it's been if you if you don't do this now, you're not going to survive. You're going to go to hell. Uh all kinds of different judgments and types of coercion. Um you won't be able to get a job. you won't be able to provide. All types of racist, very, very racist comments have been made. We document this in the testimonies of survivors who are in the registry.

Harmony Red Sky: Um, and for many, for them, it's about justice and for having their story counted and being included in an official record of what what has happened, what has been done. And in some instances, it's been so barbaric. It's unbelievable that this could anybody could be treated this way. And so that's why it's important for us to to look at the ways in which coercion happens. And I think right now we've counted seven at least seven different ways that are common patterns and behaviors that we're seeing in in the registry. Um because ultimately what ends up happening is when you have a procedure like this, you can't reverse it. And it's not just impacting the individual. This is something that impacts has lasting impacts on their family, on their community, the future generations.

Nam Kiwanuka: Um so what are some of those impacts when this kind of procedure happens in those communities?

Harmony Red Sky: Well, very much one of the things that is central to most indigenous nations, most indigenous communities is in in the teachings that we have around uh women and the rights of passage um in becoming a woman or or being a woman in community. is that that that ability to reproduce, that ability to create, to have those waters, to to birth a child is one of the greatest gifts that we're given in creation in our teachings. And so we place you that role, motherhood, uh, pregnancy, birthing as being huge, like very very sacred, very very important, and it's central. And so what that means when that's taken and this

Harmony Red Sky: has been something that we have worked and supported survivors around especially now that we're doing the work around fertility and assisted reproductive technology is really supporting those women who have had that gift taken from them to find justice in other ways or to find that those roles and that restorative justice in other ways.

Harmony Red Sky: And one of the ways in which it happens is to become teachers by telling their story by supporting that body autonomy and young women and young boys and and really becoming teachers in their communities as aunties you know as you know sometimes adopted cuckums or or granny's in their communities in different ways but it has a huge effect. We've heard of communities uh some communities where there are generations that have been wiped out because of perhaps a medical experiment or sterilization that occurred amongst a group or an age of children in residential school where there is a generation that is completely removed where from there none of the those people were able to go on and have kids. So there are examples of that here in Canada.

Harmony Red Sky: Other examples are that you know there are are many survivors in our registry that never had children at all. And so supporting the healing in that and you know and with many survivors they didn't know they didn't know this is what happened to them as a child or as a teenager or after the birth of their first child or what whatever the situation might be where they didn't know they went on to try to have more children or or to have kids only to find out that they're they're not getting anywhere. it's not working only to go in and get uh tested and then find out that way when when the testing results come back to say actually you were sterilized. Did you not know that?

Harmony Red Sky: Right. And so that's a lot of that's a very common way in which survivors find out that they were sterilized.

Nam Kiwanuka: How do you process something like that?

Harmony Red Sky: It's tragic. It's horrible. And so that's one of the things that we do is is support uh individuals who are coming to terms with what happened to them uh by providing healing supports and mental health services to be able to help them kind of re reconcile or even address the trauma that they've been through.

Nam Kiwanuka: So when we look to towards justice and accountability, you mentioned Bill S228. What is that?

Harmony Red Sky: So, bill S228 is a bill that was developed by Senator Ivonne Ber um as the issue became front and central in the Senate of Canada. And so, originally it was bill S250 and it was an act uh to amend the the criminal code. And so, it has been developed since that time. Uh it is now bill S228. It is currently in the House of Commons at second between second reading and third reading stage and the bill is really focused on criminalizing forced and core sterilization.

Harmony Red Sky: uh it is really focused on protecting the patients rights and the ability to choose and decide with informed valid consent um how they would like what health care services and and what health care they they choose to receive. Um there's been a lot of support for this bill and I want to talk about that and also some push back towards it. But I want to talk more about Senator Bua. How did she become involved with this and why did it matter to her?

Harmony Red Sky: Originally, the issue became front and central in 2015 when two survivors in Saskatchewan came forward to the media. They came forward to the media and said that they had both been sterilized in a Saskatoon hospital. And once that hit the news, that health authority for that region immediately responded by calling for an external review. At that point, Senator Yvonne Ber who was a practicing lawyer um was called in and from there she formed a team to conduct that review with her. When they did the review uh hundreds of women came forward and said that had happened to them.

Harmony Red Sky: And so from there uh that was 2015. From there she went on to be appointed to the Senate. From there she brought the issue to the Senate of Canada and then from there developed bill S250 which is now bill S228 and has really um been a champion put has now put in years of working and meeting with survivors from across the country to support and give them voice and to support justice not just for those survivors but for the prevention of forced and coerc sterilizing. ization uh in the future by by bringing this bill forward

Nam Kiwanuka: 11 years that's a long time. Um the Canadian Medical Association supports the bill the amendment and says that it's quote a critical step in for sterilizations being quote unquized as criminal acts. But the Society of Obstitricians and Gynecologists has written an op-ed saying that the bill would have unintended consequences. Um I'm going to read this quote. It's long so I'll break it up into separate parts. Uh the first part of the opad of the op-eds reads um a law intended to protect women could inadvertently contribute to a more restrictive and riskadverse environment in the delivery of reproductive care. What's your response to that?

Harmony Red Sky: The bill really centers and focuses justice and the issue of informed and valid consent for survivors. So, the bill is focused on the patient's ability to choose and it is not intended to be um a deterrent or to to prevent doctors from doing their duty of care in any way, shape or form. And so the way we have heard it from some of the experts that we work with who are OBGYNS who are practicing across the country is that if they are doing their job properly, there's nothing to worry about. There's no need to worry about the bill because if you're doing your due diligence, if you're providing the best care that you can, then you don't have to worry at all.

Harmony Red Sky: There is a section in the criminal code already that protects doctors who have to undertake life-saving procedures in an emergency situation. Doctors will continue to be protected and safe under that. And we don't have any survivors in our registry right now that were sterilized under a life-saving emergency. M.

Nam Kiwanuka: So like that just goes to show you it is very the contrast between what is a forced and coerced sterilization versus a life-saving emergency is night and day. It's quite obvious the difference between the two. And if a doctor is doing their job by providing the best care that they can and and speaking to the patient and having and forming a relationship with the patient and has obtained consent, consent that is ongoing even after the procedure that they've got nothing to worry about. And so it really is a misinterpretation of the bill to think that in any way it's going to prevent them from doing their jobs.

Nam Kiwanuka: Um can I read another part because I just wanted to give you the opportunity to um respond to this. Uh so part of the op-ed also reads, "We have already been we have already seen examples of this playing out in the United States. Legal legal uncertainties around reproductive health laws have led some physicians to delay or withhold urgent care out of fear of prosecution. This has led to preventable deaths and has caused a deadly erosion of access to reproductive care for women in the US. We cannot let this happen in Canada. What do you make of this American example?

Harmony Red Sky: I would say it really there is no comparison there. I can tell you right now that the majority of the indigenous survivors that we have in the registry right now, they were just trying to have their babies. They were just, you know, getting having these routine procedures and yet, you know, these these harms were were forced upon them. And so in terms of the the the hesitancy or what what might be posed for the physician, they don't have anything to worry about if they're doing their job effectively.

Nam Kiwanuka: Um, one last uh paragraph from it, it was a pretty long oped. Uh, the SOGC also said this, "We firmly believe decisions about reproductive health care do not belong in legislatores or courtrooms. They must remain a medical decision made between a woman and her clinician using a blunt legislative instrument to address an acknowledge history of systemic racism and discrimination within the health system against indigenous, racialized and marginalized populations is not the answer. What is your response to this?

Harmony Red Sky: There may be systemic issues at play uh that obviously health care systems have not been built are not culturally safe or indigenous centered in the in the delivery of services. Systems have also upheld and protected physicians not the patients. And so what what the survivors are asking for here in their support of the bill is for the patients rights to be protected. In this instance, the testimonies that we have gathered in working and speaking with survivors is that it was very much a doctor's opinion, a doctor's choice, and a doctor's judgment that led to the sterilization.

Harmony Red Sky: We see instances of nurses um who have had no say in the matter and have supported whatever course of action was was carried out by the physician who have later gone back to the survivor and apologized for their participation, right? Um witnesses to these acts that have happened that are very much the responsibility of one person.

Nam Kiwanuka: Well, part of what the SOGC said is that forced sterilization is already against the law and assault laws already exist. Has any doctor in Canada been prosecuted for forced sterilization with the laws that we have

Nam Kiwanuka: at this point?

Harmony Red Sky: No. So, right now, what would have applied is the uh criminal code under the criminal code would be aggravated assault. That's what where it would fall right now. but it doesn't specifically name forced and core sterilization. And when we experience health care, we don't often look at it like crimes are being caused or or that crime is occurring in a hospital situation in a healthcare scenario. So, one of the common results or outcomes of a sterilization would be, you know, what are my my means? What can I do about this?

Harmony Red Sky: And often what happens to the patient is they're directed to the hospital to file a complaint or a customer satisfaction survey. And often just kind of it gets put to the side, maybe gets addressed through a policy review by a committee and often no action comes out of it. And so for many indigenous people where this has been an ongoing type of harm over decades, many indigenous people have been silenced in that process of trying to seek any type of justice when within a healthc care setting. And so it really has been a way for physicians to be protected, for physicians to not have to face the patient.

Nam Kiwanuka: And one of the the great things that we have seen in recent years, but also still we do still need to see a lot of work happening is the apology and just the witnessing of this issue. We're just scratching the surface of what is yet to come out around forced and co sterilization in Canada. What what we will see and what we have seen in in recent years is the Canadian Medical Association did issue an apology on forced and co sterilization. And part of that meant that doctors had to face patients. And so it has really been about an accountability issue around power dynamics around health care systems and settings where for many of the survivors they need to be witnessed. They need to have their story heard. We are still very much in the truth phase of what's happened on the issue of forced and core sterilization and we we wouldn't need the bill if this wasn't still happening today.

Nam Kiwanuka: So moving forward when you look at life after the bill. Um we do see throughout this nation the denial of the horrors of residential schools and the continued harm of indigenous peoples in the court and health systems. What could a law like this do for indigenous people seeking justice for harms that they've experienced?

Harmony Red Sky: One of the outcomes of this work again uh may be to see that truth and reconciliation piece occur between the victims, the survivors of forced and core sterilization as well as the physicians. So it is an important step. It is an important piece and a lot of this has to do with being accountable and accountability the justice that folks are seeking. Uh in the future, what it could look like is uh a doctor will think twice before they make the racist statements or judgments or criticisms to a patient that they are working with that they they do take the time to actually have that conversation with the patient around what their options are and thoroughly explain what those options mean.

Harmony Red Sky: It is a a natural effort that you would think any anybody would take just to make sure that the the person understands and that even after a procedure, even after the health care's been provided that the relationship is ongoing and continues, right? that there is a afterare plan, there is a followup and that if somebody had chosen the the the course of action in that moment to to decide differently that that's something a relationship dignity, respect that is owed, right? that that is something that um hopefully with the passage of the bill we will see better care and especially for indigenous people, indigenous women experiencing the health care system that they too will see and feel that difference.

Nam Kiwanuka: It's been a long road um to get to this moment. Um we've talked about trust throughout this conversation, but we've seen how this nation has treated uh indigenous peoples. Do you trust that this bill will be passed and if it is that it will be upheld?

Harmony Red Sky: We do trust that the bill will be passed. Uh the bill is meant to uh ensure that justice and accountability is in place going forward when health care is accessed uh by anybody uh when they um are involved with the health care system where consent needs to be obtained. So it it will pass and the effect that we anticipate it will have not just for the mainstream public but for particularly for indigenous communities. is that that effort to have a a open clear communication that th those measures of what is valid consent informed consent that those measures are actually in place.

Harmony Red Sky: So if it means better training, uh if it means better consent forms and and policy procedures and each province and each region, then those are the things that need to happen. And we do plan and and anticipate that survivors are going to be involved in informing that every step of the way.

Nam Kiwanuka: Uh we started this conversation speaking about the survivors circle. Uh what do you want people to know about the survivor circle?

Harmony Red Sky: Uh the survivor circle for reproductive justice is made up of a membership of survivors who like I said are first nation inuit and matei from every part of the country every walk of life. Uh they are young, they are middle-aged, they are older. And what I've learned, and I think what we've all learned from from the work that they've done since the organization's been formed, is that they are incredibly powerful, important members of our community who do need to have their voice and do need to be able to teach us and show us the way and and teach us about important issues such as this and how important our bodies are in making in making informed choices and that how we even teach our children like these are conversations that through many policies including residential school were just shut down.

Harmony Red Sky: These conversations haven't happened around the family dinner table or in the family home or in a community setting for decades and decades and decades. So there is absolutely a movement of matriarchy of indigenous women and indigenous people reclaiming the space to talk about bodily autonomy and to teach our children that like that just the power and the effort and their work there. Um I am so grateful to be a part of and to to be able to support the work that's happening on that front.

Nam Kiwanuka: Harmony, it's been such a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Harmony Red Sky: Thank you.

Nam Kiwanuka: Um, is there anything you'd like to add that uh I may have missed?

Harmony Red Sky: I would just add that you can find our website at reproductive justice survivors.ca and we do have social media accounts as well. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, uh, LinkedIn, uh, YouTube and other places as well. We have lots of resources and lots of information available.

Nam Kiwanuka: Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

Harmony Red Sky: Thank you.

Nam Kiwanuka: This was Mistreated. Thanks for listening. You can follow our show wherever you download your podcast so that you can get notified each time a new episode is available. We would love to hear your feedback. You can write me an email at mistreatedodcast@tvo.org or you can reach out to me on social media. This week's episode was produced by Tiff Lamb and me. Edited by Colin Kish. Digital shorts by Ariana Longley. Camera work by Max Dussy. Teleprompting by Christy Mloud. Production support from Jonathan Hallowell and TVO's digital media services team. Lori F is the executive producer of digital. Stacy Dunis is the acting vice president programming and content. Thanks so much for listening.