主持人: The New Year's resolution is a thing that many of us at least know about and maybe participate in some way. Thinking about how we want to resolve to do things for the year. How do you make the distinction between chasing achievement and cultivating a meaningful life?

Emily Esfahani Smith: So I think so yeah the idea of resolutions I you know I I personally I like the idea of resolutions if they're done you know I think the right way I guess you could say um a lot of times you know we we do resolutions that are focused on these really discreet goals like you know lose 10 pounds by you know such and such a date or things like this you know you and I think that if we you know especially tying it into meaning if we can think about what it is that we value that's underneath that resolution like health or connection. Um, and then maybe framing the resolution in a in more broad terms that then you know that specific discrete goal. I think it'll be it'll make it more consistent with living a meaningful life and and less kind of frustrating um well, let's say more kind of expansive um to to pursue if you know if if one of your goals is to say be better at responding to your friend's text messages. Well, underneath that maybe is a yearning to be more connected to the people that you love. And so, you know, if you think of it that way, then there are a lot of different ways that you can achieve that particular uh goal or or value um to be connected. It doesn't just have to be about responding to text messages. Um so, I like to kind of think about, you know, what's the value? What is it really that you're yearning for underneath? Um and can you frame the resolution in that sense? Um, in terms of kind of thinking about, you know, achievement and goals, goals are things that we can, you know, accomplish. They're, you know, discreet. They're measurable. And it's really important to have goals obviously, but when it comes to meaning, you know, we're thinking about more like in terms of principles and values and purpose, something that we're always working towards, not something that we, you know, just accomplish and then, you know, once we've accomplished it that the meaning goes away. We want something that we're kind of constantly working towards.

主持人: I mean and I think so much of this idea of resolutions also feels connected to the to the idea of happiness that if we do these things right then ultimately we'll lead a happier life we'll be happier people at least that that feels like that's sort of the the the the underlying goal for all of us in in setting these resolutions and I know in your work this is a a big part of how you think about the meaning of life is sort of making this distinction between happiness and meaning. And so for those of us who, you know, might be hearing some of this for for the first time, can you talk a little bit about how you define living a life of meaning? What does that what does that look like? And and why do you think that matters more than than happiness?

Emily Esfahani Smith: Well, I remember, you know, when I was first kind of engaging with these topics that, um, I think it was actually around around the new year, um, you know, several years ago now, but there was so much kind of in the media on social, you know, in in the press, on social media about, you know, resolutions and happiness, like five ways to have a happier new year. And I [snorts] just remember at the time that those messages really um didn't resonate with me because, you know, reflecting on my own life, I you know, I was I I wasn't, you know, miserable, but I wasn't kind of happy, you know, all the time. And and so I began to think, oh, is there something wrong with me that I'm not happy all the time? And so I started to look more deeply into the research in psychology and I saw that there was this distinction between living, you know, building your life around happiness and then building your life around meaning.

Emily Esfahani Smith: And happiness, [cough and clears throat] you know, if we think about happiness, especially the way that it's sold to us in our culture, it's um it's defined, you know, within psychology research in this way, too. It's a positive mental and emotional state. If you feel good, you're happy. If you feel bad, you're unhappy. And it comes and goes. So, you know, maybe you are, you know, you're having a good day and you're feeling good and then you get a phone call with some bad news. Well, that happiness can can evaporate.

Emily Esfahani Smith: Meaning, though, is more of a stabilizing force. So, the defining feature of a meaningful life is connecting and contributing to something beyond yourself. So that could be you know your family, the work that you do um you know for people who are you know have spiritual religious um commitments you know to God or something larger you know the universe. Um so meaning is all about kind of stepping beyond yourself. It's not just about how you feel but it's stepping beyond yourself to connect to something bigger. And for a lot of us that like I said is is is a stabilizing force if happiness can kind of come and go. If it's more ephemeral meaning you know is is is there no matter what our kind of emotional state is. We're always you know if if your family is a source of meaning your family you know will continue to be that source of meaning even if you're having a bad day.

主持人: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it feels so important and I I guess if you look at it from the the other lens like I know that you you in your work are spending lots of time talking to people who are are sort of contemplating these big questions about what is the you know meaning of their own lives and and then also what does happiness look like for them in that moment and when you when you find that people are coming to you and they say that they're feeling stuck or unhappy or dissatisfied in some way I guess what are you noticing that they're most often missing is it is it purpose and connection or is it something else entirely.

Emily Esfahani Smith: I think that yes. So, you know, when people when people come to you, you know, for me, you know, as a therapist or even just, you know, your friends or people you love and they feel stuck that they feel unhappy, I think there's this really natural tendency to want to cheer them up, to make them happy. Hey, like look on the bright side or hey, like let's go, you know, do this fun thing and you'll feel better. But what we actually know um you know we know this from the research and I know this from my own clinical experience is that you know happiness kind of lives on the surface um it doesn't penetrate deeply and so when people are you know feeling depressed or hopeless lonely or you know anxious and we know that all of those markers of kind of you know suffering have been rising in recent years. When people are feeling those ways, um, what they need is something kind of more than happiness. They need something deeper.

Emily Esfahani Smith: So, the research shows that, you know, people who pursue and value happiness um, the way that our culture wants us to do, they actually end up feeling less happy. But when they pursue meaning, when they search for meaning and and seek it out, there is this deeper kind of uh you know, well-being that follows a as a result. Um and so a lot of times, yes, you know, when I'm seeing people who feel stuck, there's this kind of unmored feeling. You know, they don't feel like they have a sense of purpose. They're kind of drifting from this to that. Um don't really have a sense of who they are. And once you are able to kind of help them, you know, recognize, you know, what their purpose is, then things start to fall in line a little bit more. Um, you know, the the classic example of this is is Victor Frankle, the the Jewish Holocaust survivor from Vienna, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, a beautiful book. Um, and it's about his experiences in the concentration camps during the Holocaust. and he writes about how, you know, the inmates in the camps had lost everything. They'd lost their families. Um they'd lost their homes, their freedom. And so, understandably, a lot of them, you know, decided that, you know, there was nothing else left to live for. But there were some people uh who continued to believe that there was some purpose or meaning driving their lives, like being reunited with their children who were living, you know, elsewhere in safety. Um and those who were able to hold on to meaning were more resilient um in the in the s in the face of suffering and even more frankly writes apt to survive given the general degradations of camp life and and we know this you know from the research as well that you know when researchers look at what's predicting this rising tide of despair um you know all through the world rises in depression loneliness etc um it's not a lack of happiness in people's lives. It's a lack of meaning. And people who have a sense of meaning in life are more resilient to suffering do experience greater longevity. So there's something really powerful about meaning that kind of goes deeper for us.

主持人: And it's so it's so interesting that you you note that because I I think one thing question that I have for you is around the time that sort of elapsed since your talk and and since you wrote your book. So it was 2017 and now we're now in 2026, nine years later. And since that time, we've experienced so many things culturally, right? This pandemic, there's sort of this rising political polarization, which of course existed in 2017, but I think in much greater degrees, we're seeing it today. Um, you know, growing existential threats like climate change and you name it, the list goes on and on, right? How do you feel like when you especially think Victor Frankle like how do you think these collective experience uh ses have sort of reshaped the way you think about the way your you give your life meaning or the way you think about the meaning of life? Um and and if they have at all.

Emily Esfahani Smith: Yes. I you know I I'll take the example of the of the pandemic because that is something obviously that we all went through was you know several years long. Um, you know, we saw a lot of people, you know, in in ma, you know, major transitions, losing their jobs, deciding to leave work or, you know, suddenly being plunged into an environment where they were around their children all the time and tried to do work, just navigating a lot. Um, or maybe the work that they did was not possible anymore because of what was happening. And so that source of meaning was gone.

Emily Esfahani Smith: And you know, and it's so b so what what the pandemic was basically for a lot of people was a life transition. And we all experience life transitions. Um, personally, ever since uh I wrote my book in 20 2017, I've become a parent. That was a major life transition for me. Um but you know the pandemic the political uh atmosphere things have changed and I think that in these moments of transition what can happen is our you know our sense of self kind of gets shaken up a bit and definitely you know whatever happiness we may have been feeling um whatever comforts that we had may not be in place um as much as they were before. I remember seeing a statistic during the pandemic saying that, you know, Americans were um the unhappiest that they've been in decades. Um and of course, all those indicators of suffering that I talked about a moment ago, you know, they had been rising, but during the pandemic that, you know, that rise became even steeper. And so transitions don't feel good all the time. But they can be these opportunities to to reflect to kind of pause kind of like the way the new year is to you know pause and think about okay what do I really want? What do I value? And I saw a lot of people doing that you know during the pandemic. they were, you know, they were kind of foisted into this situation um not by choice and they took it as an opportunity to kind of reflect a little bit more deeply on their lives and what they wanted and they came out of the pandemic with a new sense of direction. So I think with transitions we have to recognize that it's totally normal for them to feel bad and for us to feel unmed both in terms of our happiness and our meaning because things are changing. Um, and yet if we kind of continue the search, use that time, as uncomfortable as it may be, as an opportunity to reflect on what we want, where we want our lives to go, what our purpose is, it can lead to these opportunities, these new directions in our lives that can feel really, you know, life affirming once once we come out of it.

主持人: Well, you know, I guess speaking to sort of this transition and and you, you know, keep coming back to, of course, this moment being the new year sort of feeling like this transitional moment for all of us. Um, and in your book you you sort of you talk about the the four pillars of meaning as belonging, purpose, transcendence, and storytelling. You talk about that in the in the talk as well. Um, I guess in this in this moment, are there one or two that feel especially important to to nurture right now?

Emily Esfahani Smith: I think you know for every person um you know different people will feel uh res like resonate with different pillars you know to more or less of a degree and you don't have to have all four of the pillars you know necessarily in your life in order to feel like your life is meaningful. Um but for some people you know belonging is really important those connections we have to others. for others it's going to be um you know transcendence this connectedness to you know the beauty around us to nature to the spiritual world but I think um you know if I had to single out one more than any uh for right now given this moment in time that we're in I would focus on belonging um because you know as you mentioned earlier Whitney there is this kind of growing divisiveness um and you know this is obviously um kind of impairing and getting in the way of us having the kind of relationships that we want to have with people. You know, there's kind of that cliche now about, you know, the Thanksgiving the Thanksgiving table and, you know, family members who have become estranged from one another um as a result of political beliefs. And I think if we kind of step back and think about belonging and connectedness um in kind of a broader way than our allegiance to a political party or to a particular group, it could maybe help us um you know rekindle those connections.

Emily Esfahani Smith: So in my book, The Power of Meaning, I I talk about belonging as, you know, this this ability to kind of value the other person for who they are intrinsically and to feel valued in turn for who you are intrinsically. So, you know, we're not valued. We don't belong, you know, when we're just, you know, part of a political tribe or even, you know, if you think in in more problematic cases, part of a gang or a cult. We have true belonging when we're valued for who we are intrinsically kind of deep down, you know, being recognized as as a human being. Um, you know, I think political parties and and groupishness, um, you know, sports team affiliations, another example, um, can offer this kind of cheap sense of belonging. Um, but true belonging springs from this place of of love, I would say, you know, like smaller case love in some cases, where you actually just kind of connect with another person. It could be the person at the grocery store or, you know, your your child at home. And so kind of stripping away some of these myths of belonging that it has to come from being affiliated with a group um or for believing a certain thing I think can help us in this new year for forge better connections. And I'll say too, um, just kind of referring back to the data as well, so much of, um, so much of what's driving, you know, rising rates of depression, suicide, uh, you know, self harm is is loneliness, um, and a sense of isolation. And again, you know, the antidote to that is belonging and feeling connected to others.

主持人: I think that makes so much sense that it feels like being able to sort of see yourself as part of this bigger fabric and and make those connections really will be able to feed your purpose in a lot of ways. And I imagine there, you know, are questions in the the chat about some of the the other pillars and it's it seems like maybe belonging is is a funnel to helping you realize some of those other pillars as well. Is that accurate?

Emily Esfahani Smith: Yeah, I think so. And and I said and I said, you know, a second ago, too. Oh, you don't necessarily have to have all the pillars in your life for your life to feel meaningful. But I'll I'll make an exception to that. Whereas, you know, I I do think you have to have a sense of belonging kind of, you know, connections to others um that feel, you know, rich and meaningful to you. Um you know, we're social human beings are social creatures. We, you know, when you when you you know, we thrive on the relationships that we have. And you know when you ask people okay what are your most important sources of meaning in life they will say you know my relationships my family um my community. So belonging is really important and yes like I think it can fuel these other pillars of meaning as well. I mean if you think about you know purpose a lot of us will you know find a sense of purpose in being a part of a community in playing a particular role um in a community. I think about, you know, caretakers for example. Um, you know, the caretaking is, you know, kind of an ultimate example of, you know, loving and and, you know, devoting your life to something beyond yourself. And so, it's, you know, it's belonging there, but it's also this this sense of purpose as well. Uh, so I do think that belonging is kind of underneath many of the pillars and really important for all of us to have in our lives. And I'll just say too, you know, we we hear a lot about how, you know, relationships are important to well-being. Um, you know, relationships are important for our our sense of happiness, our sense of meaning. And I just want to say, of course, that's what I'm saying. But when I talk about belonging, what I'm really talking about is a specific type of relationship. You know, a relationship again where you're valued for who you are intrinsically. You know, you we're all in, you know, many relationships. And in some of those relationships, belonging exists. In some of those relationships, even even, you know, close ones like to, you know, family members um or friends, belonging might not exist. And so, I'm really talking about a specific feature of a relationship.

主持人: Well, Emily, we have lots of questions coming in from members that I think will add something great to this conversation. So, I want to bring some of those in. Uh we have one from Antuinette uh where they ask in in periods of transition especially when we feel called to leave a familiar but misaligned path, how can we distinguish between pursuing meaningful growth and chasing an idealized version of the quote unquote right fit? What does it look like to move toward purpose without forcing outcomes?

Emily Esfahani Smith: Yes. So um Antonet, that's such a great question. So yes, a lot of us, you know, could find ourselves in situations that I think, like you said, you know, feel misaligned, you know, are comfortable but don't necessarily fit with, you know, our values, um, or how we saw our life going. And there's that kind of grass is always greener effect, right? Oh, if I just left my job or, you know, left this relationship, moved here, um, then, you know, then things would be better. And, you know, of course, that that's not always the case. Sometimes it might be the case, but it's not always the case. And so I think what, you know, what I'd recommend in a case like that is to, you know, think about like the situation, you know, that you're in right now. In what sense is it misaligned? Is it misaligned in the sense that it is, you know, running in the opposite direction of your of your values? Are you, you know, working for a company, for example, that's not doing the sort of good in the world that you, you know, you would like to be doing with your life? Or is it something different? Is it that, you know, the tasks that you're doing, you know, the life that you're in feel boring or feel un, you know, unstimulating, unsatisfying? because in that case I think that there are ways to kind of re replenish meaning to you know to you know reconnect whatever it is that you're doing that might seem tedious that might not seem glamorous to whatever that bigger picture is that you see your life being a part of um you know so for example you know if you're a teacher let's say and you are you know in you know in meetings you know committee meetings or this and that and it just feels like a waste of time. Well, what you're doing is in the service of this larger mission of serving of, you know, of of educating young people. Um, and so sometimes small tweaks can help, but sometimes we do need a a bigger change, a more radical change. And again, I think that the signal for that, the hint that that's what's needed is if you are, you know, living a life that does not feel at all aligned with your values and aligned with what's important to you. Um, so I think that's that's one way I would think about it.

主持人: And you know, I think that there's also an element here for a lot of us of things happening outside of our control, right? that there are so many factors that affect how we think about ourselves that um are going on around us that we don't particularly have any um ability to sway in one way or the other. And so I wonder how you think we can build lives of meaning when the the future maybe feels uncertain or when progress feels slow or things feel uh beyond your ability to actually um influence in some way.

Emily Esfahani Smith: Yes. Yes. So, you know, the future is is uncertain and that's always true. You know, you know, it's it was true, you know, a hundred years ago. It's true today. It may be even, you know, more true than ever today because there's, you know, the world is changing at such a fast rate. And I think here um again meaning can be a stabilizing force um if we if we know if we're committed to you know connecting and contributing to something beyond ourel whether that's our family or the work that we do um you know something you know more spiritually inclined perhaps then that can be an anchor for us um even as things change all around us. I think, you [snorts] know, I was saying at the beginning of the episode um of of of the show here with you, Whitney, that um you know, when it comes to meaning and and happiness that, you know, things can feel uncertain and that when um you know, when we're setting resolutions for ourselves, um you know, goals are these kind of discrete things that we can accomplish. Um happiness is something that, you know, we may want, but it comes and goes, but meaning is something that we can always work towards. So not just you know yes we can frame our New Year's resolutions in terms of meaning but also our our life more generally in terms of meaning and that can be a stabilizing force to kind of get us you know give us something um to anchor us to move us through um you know all of the uncertainty. Um [snorts] and again you know I come back to examples of people who have who have experienced uncertainty and um you know and calamity. You know, if you think about again like World War II, Victor Frankle, the Holocaust, um finding meaning in a situation like that can, you know, be this this source of hope, um something to live for.

Emily Esfahani Smith: And that's, you know, maybe an extreme example, but you know, there are people around the world who are going through really, you know, horrific things right now. But there's also, you know, those of us who are privileged to lead, you know, to live in peaceful societies. And even for us, you know, maybe you have chronic disease, maybe there's something else really hard going on in your life that makes the future uncertain. I still think that having that meaning, that purpose can, you know, does give that sense of hope. It's that forward pointing arrow that leads you into the future, helps you kind of get, you know, move through the bumps of life.

主持人: And and so let's talk a little bit about what what that looks like then. So, um, Deja, a member of Deja has a question about how you can integrate big goals into an everyday schedule, routine, or plan. What are what are some of the small everyday practices you think can help us stay oriented towards towards meaning?

Emily Esfahani Smith: Yeah, that's a great idea. I I mean that's a great question. Um I think that you know there are there are a lot of small things that we can do. So you know for example um I think you know I'll give an example that's that's personal to me. So there's you know like I said I've had you know children since I wrote my book. Um I have you know one is four years old the other is two the other is 12 weeks old. And so a lot of my time um these days is spent doing things like laundry and washing bottles and um you [snorts] know preparing you know meals and trying to coax my kids to eat those meals. Um and um you know it can it can feel it can feel like I don't know it's it's hard you know it's it's hard it's hard being um a parent sometimes. It's wonderful. It's joyful. It's beautiful as well but it can also feel hard. And I think that, you know, I'm constantly trying to remind myself that all of these things that, you know, my husband and I are doing um for our kids, even though they can seem frustrating or, you know, tedious or boring, you know, folding laundry, whatever, um that they're all part of, you know, caring for and loving um these children. And so, you know, cooking the meals, folding the laundry, washing the bottles, those can turn into acts of love. And so that then endows those things with a greater sense of meaning and and kind of, you know, just brings a little bit more peace and comfort when things feel chaotic um and uncertain at home. So I think re so refraraming what we're doing I think can be a really powerful way to align you know our everyday tasks with those broader goals. Reframing them to connect them to something meaningful.

Emily Esfahani Smith: The other thing is I mean I would say like finding micro moments um in your day to cultivate meaning you know you know if if you're working for example in the office like can you have a you know a you know brief maybe conversation with someone where you're really tuned into them and connected with them um and and that can be a moment of belonging. In my talk, I I tell the story of of a friend of mine, Jonathan, and this sense of connectedness that he has um every morning buying um you know, a newspaper from this street vendor in New York and the two of them kind of getting to know each other and walking away from that moment, feeling lifted up, feeling like they'd been really seen by the other person. So, these little moments of meaning that we can build into our our lives as well. If you think about, you know, transcendence, for example, maybe you create a playlist for yourself on Spotify or Apple Music, whatever. Um, that is your kind of transcendence playlist, your beauty, your beauty playlist, and you listen to that in the morning or at night, whenever. So these these little ways to kind of bake meaning into our lives, I think, you know, we just have to think about, you know, what is it that's meaningful to us and how can I how can I, you know, bring it into that playlist or bring it into that, you know, uh, interaction that I'm having with that person at work or on the street or whatever.

主持人: I love that. And we have other questions about like how you can use other other tools to help you more thoughtfully consider meaning in your life. And member Shashana has a question about whether practicing or pondering and uh reflection on your own mortality can help you build a life of meaning. Do you feel like that's something that's that's also useful?

Emily Esfahani Smith: Yes, absolutely. you know the um there's our own mort mortality can be the greatest kind of you know instigator towards getting us to think about meaning and what really matters to us. Um in my book I write about uh you know something that psychologists call u you know the death p the deathbed you know thought experiment. And so, you know, if you're sitting on your deathbed reflecting back on your life, are you going to be happy with what you see there? Um, are you are you going to, you know, be satisfied, I should say, with like what you see reflecting back, are you going to feel like you did the things that were important to you, that you did, you know, your your best to kind of live out your values, to to love and be loved, those kinds of things? or um are you going to feel despair that you didn't um what regrets might you have and that can be that can be a way of you know that we can determine okay if I'm dying right now and sitting on my deathbed maybe these are the changes that I need to make you know mortality is one is one you know way that we can really kind of get into thinking about you know what makes our lives meaningful and then regret I think actually is another way regret can speak to us too because it tells us what's important to us you know what we want our lives to be about um so [snorts] you know nobody nobody feels comfortable well I shouldn't say nobody maybe some people do but a lot of people don't feel comfortable you know thinking about their own deaths a lot of people don't feel comfortable thinking about the things they regret these are really painful uh topics to to sit with um and yet they can be these you know they can give us hints and clues clues about how we can make our lives more meaningful.

Emily Esfahani Smith: Um in my book I write specifically about um something called meaning centered psychotherapy developed by um a psychiatrist Dr. William Breitbart at Sloan Ketering in New York City and that's a therapy for people who have a terminal cancer and the whole idea behind the therapy is okay like your life you know your life is going to end sooner than you thought it would and so you know with this time that you have left how can we help you you know find meaning in your life reflect back on the sources of meaning in your life on what right now still gives you ing and you know what the researchers find is that that intervention does increase the sense of meaning that people have in the face of death. And so you know that tells us that there is something about mortality which kind of forces us to uh come to terms with our lives in in a way that feels very pressing and can bring that sense of meaning.

主持人: I think one thing I find really striking in what you're you've just shared now and what you've shared throughout the conversation is that there's really many unexpected places where you can find meaning and if you're really thoughtful about this then things that you think you know regrets and mortality and you know crises like that that they could also bring about uh great opportunity for personal growth and and understanding of yourself right um which is which is wonderful. Um so we have other questions from from members sort of about how we think about the the way we can engage with meaning in the people around us. So um Miriam asks how do we confront those who do not take into account their emotions and feelings in the name of individualism and do not want to feel connected? I guess if we're trying to create a sense of belonging connection for ourselves, how can we do that if other people don't want to engage in that way?

Emily Esfahani Smith: Yeah, that's a great question, Miriam. I think um so I think you know in in western cultures especially um or just you know in in cultures that are the wealthier a culture becomes the more individualistic it becomes and um there is this pull then between you know individualism and community. You know if you look across the world like different you know different parts of the world have different emphasis on which which one they think is more important you know the individual or the community. you know, in a lot of kind of Asian cultures, there's a greater sense of community, a sense of emphasis placed on community um and community oriented values like honor and serving other people than in places like the United States where there's greater emphasis obviously on individualism, you know, do do your own thing, follow your own path kind of thing. And so I think that you know for people who are living in individualistic cultures you're always negotiating that tension between the self and other and how to cultivate that sense of um belonging. And I think that one of, you know, one of the things that we're seeing as a result of this, you know, rising individualism is that people are lonier. Um, and so, you know, that leads to, you know, rising rates of mental illness more broadly. And what can we do about that? you know, we can't necessarily, you know, force people, you know, to engage with us, but we can create opportunities um, you know, in the in the kind of cultures and organizations that we're a part of to cultivate, you know, belonging.

Emily Esfahani Smith: I talk about cultures of meaning in my book, The Power of Meaning. And it's um you know your your family could be a culture of meaning your you know your school your organization your you know whatever communities that you're involved with you know you can turn it into a culture of meaning by creating the conditions that facilitate belonging. So you know for example I was I remember you know years ago I was um at a dinner um you know a group of 15 people. None of us knew each other um or or some of us did but we were not close. it was, you know, very much on the professional level. And the person hosting the dinner had us go around and talk about um, you know, something that feels really challenging right now um and something that we're really hopeful for and also the best moment of our life, you know, something like that. So, we all went around and and did that as an icebreaker and it really, you know, made the group feel connected. So, um, you know, so what's the takeaway from that? I think creating spaces where we can have genuine meaningful conversations with one another um can be a way to cultivate belonging and maybe you know if there's that person who doesn't want to engage maybe one way to get them to engage is to you know ask them about you know their own their own life you know what are they hopeful for what is challenging right now and then that can be you know a portal to belonging.

主持人: Well, I mean as we look to the future and there's so many things that you know I I feel like AI of course is the thing that all of us are talking about how that will change maybe what our day-to-day meaning of our lives is but maybe collectively you know how we think about human life when you look to the future what what gives you hope about our collective search for for meaning.

Emily Esfahani Smith: Well, I think that you know even though things feel like they're you know falling apart and they're all you know all these ex existential threats and whatnot you know if you do take the long view of history. It's it's you know things are improving you know the people are living longer people live in societies you know with more you know living with more freedom all you know things are getting better overall and I think that that gives me a sense of hope and the more that people the more that you know the conditions around us exist that you know allow people to live good lives the more people can turn to this question of meaning. So I think that that gives me a lot of hope.

主持人: Well, Emily, thank you so much for for sharing your thoughts here. I think this is the perfect way to begin um our our membership year and for all of us to to contemplate these things as we're starting to think about the year we have ahead. So, thank you for taking the time to join us and share this.

Emily Esfahani Smith: Well, thank you so much, Whitney, and thank you for all the questions. It was great to be with you all. [music]