Dr. Martin Picard: This is incontrovertible evidence that growing of hair is reversible and it can be pretty fast. Wow. And there's more. So, we all walk around with our biological history encoded in your hair. Like for example, if you have marijuana 6 months ago, it's going to be in your hair.

Host: I need to get a haircut. I'm joking.

Dr. Martin Picard: So, my research lab had the idea that if we could find what was happening in this person's life when this young hair become old, then we could understand the mechanism of the aging process.

Host: So, what is secret to anti-aging? It's the proper allocation of energy. Can you can you how what's the simplest way you can explain that to me?

Dr. Martin Picard: So, first energy is real and it's the difference between feeling like you can change the world or feeling completely drained and a lot of people live on that end of the spectrum and it's because there's a finite energy budget with a hierarchy of energy needs in the body. For example, we did an experiment because we wanted to know how much energy does it cost to worry about the future, to ruminate about yesterday. And we found that the stress hormone increased energy expenditure by 60%. Right? So, it needs to steal energy from some of the things that keep you young. So, it's not the stress that burns us down, it's the response to stress. And the third piece is this energy is from your mitochondria. And there's about 5,000 trillion mitochondria in your body. And so, they made our bodies possible. And they can change how you feel.

Host: Well, I read that studies on brains of dead people have found that those with greater sense of purpose have more efficient mitochondria.

Dr. Martin Picard: Yes, we are really in service of the mitochondria. They allow us to be alive.

Host: Okay, I've got so many questions for you based on what people wanted to know. It's like how patients with me, chronic fatigue or long COVID safely rehabilitate their mitochondria? What I consume, how does that impact the efficiency of the energy? if red light therapy impacts mitochondria and is there anything I can do to have more energy available? But before that, I've heard you say that most diseases or disorders can be explained by understanding energy resistance.

Dr. Martin Picard: Yeah, we think there's increased energy resistance in cancer than Alzheimer's. Like fundamentally, diabetes is a disease of energy resistance.

Host: So, is there anything I can do?

Dr. Martin Picard: There is. So, we can start by

Host: This is super interesting to me. My team given me this report to show me how many of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly. So favor to ask all of you, please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button if you are a regular viewer of the show and you like what we do here. We're approaching quite a significant landmark on this show in terms of a subscriber number. So, if there was one simple free thing that you could do to help us, my team, everyone here, to keep this show free, to keep it improving year over year and week over week, it is just to hit that subscribe button and to double check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure every single week, every single month, we fight harder and harder and harder and harder to bring you the guests and conversations that you want to hear. I've stayed true to that promise since the very beginning of the D of Co, and I will not let you down. Please help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get on with the show.

Host: Dr. Martin Picard, what is it that you believe, know, or understand that most people out there don't believe, know, or understand?

Dr. Martin Picard: We are energy. We literally are the energy that's flowing through the body.

Host: Mhm.

Dr. Martin Picard: And and that sounds a little woo if you don't have context. And that's I think something that we're just starting to have the right scientific framework to to understand to understand ourselves from first principles as energetic processes.

Host: In a nutshell, what is it that people are looking for when they listen to this subject of energy? Yeah, I think people want to understand what is energy and how can I have more energy? I can relate to that because sometimes you know if I look through my life sometimes I wake up and I feel amazing and I really have in my view done the same thing but then sometimes I wake up and I don't feel amazing and it feels kind of like roulette like this sort of opaque mystery of how do I wake up on with more days in a row and feel amazing like I can take on the world and then there's also some friends that I have who are suffering with different things whether it's chronic illness or long co or whatever who repeatedly wake up and feel low energy for years, you know, at a time.

Dr. Martin Picard: Yeah, it's a really tough place to be when you wake up repeatedly and and you don't feel like you have the capacity, the energy to be in the world. It's it's a really tough place to be.

Host: And and who are you and why did you commit your life to this subject?

Dr. Martin Picard: I'm a regular guy who with you know lived experiences who who's gone through some tough things that have taught me lessons and have gone through wonderful things that have made me feel like life is really special and precious and then I became a scientist and as I learned the tools of science I started to see and I discovered mitochondria I thought this is an approach to start to bridge what's true about the human experience that we know from first experience empirically and we know to be real not because you know some white coatwearing doctor or scientist you just said yes energy is real it's in your mitochondria we know it to be real from first experience right because we we feel it and then what science is telling us about how things work in our bodies right and about health and and disease and where diseases come from so I had these questions so I became a scientist to bridge those domains of of existence the the science and the experience um so I've led a research group at Columbia University for 10 years uh and founded an institute uh to really build the systems and technologies to to help people grow, heal and and and transform.

Host: You have a PhD in mitochondria.

Dr. Martin Picard: Yep. My PhD was in mitochondrial biology of aging.

Host: I mean, there's a an image here in front of me. Some people will just be listening, so we'll try and explain it for them, but there's an image here of a video. I'll play the video on screen now and it kind of looks like a looks a little bit like an alien but I I I read that this video was quite formative for you. What is that video and why was that formative moment in your career?

Dr. Martin Picard: I took this video in England uh in Newcastle upon time in the north of England uh with my Jordy friends uh the medical school there. I was a graduate student and went there for kind of an exchange and this is the first time I saw mitochondria moving. I saw like the inner life of ourselves and when I saw this something struck me it's like oh my god I'm able to see this right and to see living mitochondria because of the mitochondria inside of me. It's the energy that's flowing through my mitochondria in my eye, right, that's allowing me to perceive to see this. Mitochondria made multisellular life possible. They made our bodies possible and and we might just be a vehicle for mitochondria to kind of propagate and keep on living. So when I saw this like this is mitochondria looking at mitochondria and then I was starting to understand that mitochondria do more than just transforming energy. What they're known for is they take the food you eat and then they take the oxygen that you breathe in and then those two things the food the oxygen converge inside the mitochondria and then something really special happens. The electrons that are stuck on food that were stuck together in a green leaf somewhere right photosynthesis. What your mitochondria do is they they kind of unpack this and they rip off the electrons one by one and then they flow them like a little electrical circuit. And that happens in like the 5,000 trillion mitochondria that are in your body. And then when the electrons flow, they need to flow towards something just like in an...

Guest: electrical circuit. Electrons flow from one pole of the battery to the negative to to the other pole of the battery. Uh and that circuit is closed in the mitochondria. So the the electrons from the food you eat flow towards oxygen that you breathe and then it becomes water. And and it's that vital flow of energy, electrons flowing towards oxygen that allows us to be alive. And uh mitochondria do this. And then as they do this, they transform energy from food biochemistry into electricity and into signals and into heat. And the reason the body is warm is because the mitochondria as they transform and flow electrons like a little energetic circuit, they release heat. So the source of heat, right, that makes us warm. You shake someone's hand, you feel their warmth. you were feeling they weren't from their mitochondria.

Stephen: >> So is there a mitochondria in every single cell in my body?

Guest: >> There's on average a thousand mitochondria per cell.

Stephen: >> Per cell there's a thousand. So how many is there in my body?

Guest: >> About 5,000 trillion.

Stephen: >> Who should care about the mitochondria and why should they care about it?

Guest: >> Mhm. Anyone who cares about their energy, right? About having enough energy to do what they really care about.

Stephen: >> Uh we all care about different things. We're we're all gifted and talented for different things. Uh everyone has this, you know, unique authentic self that wants to come out. The only way for this to come out and the only way for a person to flourish is through energy.

Guest: >> Mhm.

Stephen: >> If there's no energy flowing through your body, you're dead, right? And if the energy doesn't flow efficiently, right, and smoothly through you as an organism, then life feels hard. Like you're not at your best. you feel tired and and you feel like, you know, maybe it's not worth it. You know, when you're sick and your immune system is like draining all of your energy, it's really hard to be optimistic and it's hard to be a good person and it's hard to be a good dad

Guest: >> and it's hard to want to do good for the world if you're struggling with energy. Do

Stephen: >> you know what it is? So many of us think that that just is what it is and that we can do nothing about that.

Guest: >> Yeah. You know, we we breathe in, we eat food, and then how we feel is kind of roulette.

Stephen: >> Yeah.

Guest: >> There's this certain I think feeling a lot of us have that we can't really control that much.

Stephen: >> Mhm.

Guest: >> Where do we need to start to understand? Cuz the outcome I want from this conversation is I want to live my life with more energy to do the things that I want to do. And I imagine the people that are listening also feel the same way. So where does one have to start? I'd like to understand the basics and then move to the actionable stuff like things I can do

Stephen: >> so that I live my life full of energy.

Guest: >> Yeah. So there there are three things that are really foundational to how energy works in the human body. One is that you are the energy that's flowing through this body.

Stephen: >> I am the energy that's flowing through my body.

Guest: >> Yes.

Stephen: >> So I'm not my body.

Guest: >> You're not your body.

Stephen: >> Okay. I'm the energy flowing through it.

Guest: >> You Stephen.

Stephen: >> Yeah.

Guest: >> This expression now that I'm getting to experience.

Stephen: >> Thank you.

Guest: This expression is an expression of the flow of energy. If there was no energy flowing through your body, through your heart, through your brain, like you wouldn't be right. You'd be a cadaavver and we'd say Steven is gone. You know, a dead body.

Stephen: >> Yeah. You'd be a dead body. The difference between a dead body, a cadaavver, and a living, thinking, feeling, conscious person, who cares, is the flow of energy.

Guest: >> Okay.

Stephen: >> You you get so indoctrinated in this worldview that the only thing that's real is the physical stuff. and you know the nucle the the genes that that you got from your parents and the body the physical body and that's the real stuff what you can't see with your eyes not real

Guest: >> right I think that's a reframe that's kind of a bigger picture mindset shift that uh we need to and and scientists struggled with so number one is you are the energy that flows and transforms uh through this body number two is there's a fixed energy budget right all of us have a fairly fixed energy budget to deal with and and for example if you want to have more energy to do more podcasts to write more articles to uh you know be more creative. The solution is not eating more because there's this fixed energy budget and if you overload the system you feed it too much food especially too much sugar it's really hard on the system and then the system like an electrical system you jack up the voltage right and then the system starts to overheat. Uh so inflammation is this this overheating there's too much energy in the system and uh or the cells are are burning too much energy and they need to kind of tell other cells that's and those signals we call inflam inflammation cytoines.

Stephen: >> Mhm. So there's a fixed energy budget that you have to deal with and over time the organism does a lot of of uh finessing and adapting to kind of try to preserve this energy budget

Guest: >> and that's somewhat linked to stress I guess which is I read your work and it talked about how stress was basically just like an over consumption of energy. It's requiring loads and loads and loads of energy.

Stephen: >> Yeah.

Guest: >> Okay. We'll talk about that too then because I think stress is a really important one. What's the third?

Stephen: >> The third one is life is resistance. In order to be alive, in order to to grow, to learn, uh to transform, right, change your views, you need resistance to go through some resistance.

Guest: >> Mhm.

Stephen: >> You need energy to go through some resistance, right? If energy just flows and there's no zero resistance, then there's no possible transformation. So if life was always easy

Guest: >> and you never faced any challenge any stress in your life then you would just remain as is right and and it would be very boring and from first principles physics like we know this to be true you know at a number of levels but for example the sun this beautiful nuclear reactor in the sky shoots energy right as photons. So light is a form of energy and as long as light you know just goes and and photons travels in outer space photon will remain photon light energy will remain light energy until that light energy hits a green leaf right and the green leaf basically breaks or stops the photon in its path. So it's it offers a constraint right it offers resistance. So when light energy faces resistance now it can be converted and that's the basis of making food. That's how nature makes food. It crystallizes energy from sunlight into molecules. Life you know plants crystallize light energy into carbohydrates. Uh and then those are transformed into the different kinds of food that we eat. We need resistance for energy to transform into something meaningful.

Stephen: >> So what has um mitochondria got to do with all of this?

Guest: >> Mitochondria are basically little resistors, right? And and they are what allows the flow of energy through the system.

Stephen: >> Have you got a picture of Okay, here we go.

Guest: >> Yeah.

Stephen: >> Okay. So this is a an image of a mitochondria.

Guest: >> A mitochondria. O N is a singular and mitochondria is plural. Yeah. So this is a mitochondrian and there's about a thousand of these in each of your cells.

Stephen: >> Okay. And there's about five trillion cells in your body uh that have a nucleus and that have these beautiful mitochondria. And what you see here, these little wings, these are called christi. And the christi is where the food you eat end up and where the oxygen you breathe end up as well. So this is where the electrons are flowing. There's like little electrical circuits here. And as the electrons are flowing, the mitochondria become charged like little batteries. So effectively a mitochondrian like this has all of these sites of oxygen consumption and and food consumption and then that gets transformed uh into a little charge battery and once the battery is charged uh the mitochondria can use that charge to make ATP adenosine triphosphate which is kind of the the cellular energy currency. If a cell wants to contract right a muscle cell wants to contract in the gym it needs ATP.

Guest: So it calls upon the mitochondria says I need ATP and then the mitochondria

Speaker A: gets to work uh and then flows uh electrons consumes some food burns some oxygen that's why you get out of breath right so when you get out of breath is because the mitochondria are using the oxygen and calling for more oxygen what we've been discovering is that mitochondria do a lot more than just making ATP

Speaker B: okay

Speaker A: they use their their energized state to produce signals to receive information and then to produce signals

Speaker B: oh so they're talking to each other

Speaker A: they're talking to each other

Speaker B: and what are they saying?

Speaker A: They're they're it's a whole collective and and they're talking to each other kind of monitoring what's happening not only inside the cell but outside the cell. So on the surface of mitochondria all along there are little receptors for all sorts of signals that tells this mitochondrian is there enough energy? Is there are we running out of energy? Is there a stress hormone here? Should we be getting ready for you know something dangerous? Uh so mitochondria are like like a little distributed brain right? Right. So they're like the intracellular brain.

Speaker B: Am I right in thinking that they used to be bacteria?

Speaker A: They are. Yeah, they did. Yeah.

Speaker B: What What is that story? Cuz I I think someone said that to me before on the show that our mitochondria are actually bacteria that from prehistoric times or something.

Speaker A: So the story is about 1.5 billion years ago. Uh that there was two different types of bacteria. One type was able to use oxygen to transform energy, right? So it could fuel on oxygen and and other food substrates. The other type could not. It was anorobic and the anorobic bacterium was probably a little bigger and it had like a few more genes. Um, and it could only ferment its food and kind of fermenting the food, spitting out, you know, like lactate or like yeast does. And what happened is the big one either engulfed the small one, right? Or maybe the small one kind of infiltrated, colonized the big one. And the story goes uh that this basically gave a whole bunch more energy to the big cell. That's one perspective. And then with more energy, what can you do? You can evolve more complexity. The version I I favor based on the evidence we have is that when mitochondria came in and then they there was this new structure, this symbiotic relationship, mitochondria basically gave the ability of the cell to perceive the environment in a different way and to compute information in a different way. So maybe the the the coming of of mitochondria into this big cell made the big cell social because before this event most of the evidence says that cells were asocial. They were little bacteria foraging for for for themselves and you know kind of operating from a very selfish uh perspective just trying to replicate you know trying to survive. When mitochondria came in it like gave those cells a different view on life and they're like woo we could work together. How about you become a cell that gets energy, right? And I become a cell that uh moves, right? So then you're the gut and I'm going to be the muscle and and then then together those two cells can do a lot more, right?

Speaker B: And fast forward a couple billion years and here we are.

Speaker A: Here we are. Yeah. And and that led to, you know, bodies with organs. You know, the liver feeds the rest of the body. The heart keeps things flowing. The brain kind of computes and and plans. Uh so that's division of labor. It's uh and it started with the mitochondria.

Speaker B: You you talked about energy resistance. I've heard you say that most diseases or disorders can be explained by understanding energy resistance. Give me a disease that's linked to energy resistance.

Speaker A: The clearest is what we call insulin resistance or diabetes, right? Diabetes affects millions in the world. Fundamentally, diabetes is a disease of energy resistance. Uh so if the resistance is too high

Speaker B: because

Speaker A: because you have um too much energy pushed onto the system,

Speaker B: sugar, too much sugar, glucose.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Or if the mitochondria are impaired, right, and they can't flow energy, then the the the energy is kind of stuck. It faces greater constraints. Like it wants to go in that direction, but then there's a barrier and then another barrier, another barrier. It's like water flowing, right? nice and and and and smooth. And then there's like a dam, right? And if the dam has zero um openings, right, then the the water accumulates and then there's high pressure and then at some point the the water accumulates and ends up flooding the the landscape and then damaging things. So it's a bit like the same thing. If now you open floodgates on the dam, right, and then you can use that energy to make electricity, for example. You use the the movement of the water to transform this into electricity. That's basically what the mitochondria do. Uh and if you move and you're physically active, now the flow of energy through the mitochondria can transform into work, right? And to speed into uh movement, right, into lifting.

Speaker B: Is this linked to cancer at all? Because it sounds I mean I don't know much about cancer, but

Speaker A: cells dividing out of um control

Speaker B: seemingly randomly.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that there's a very good chance if you look at the biology of cancer and what scientists call the hallmarks of cancer, there's like a a 10 item flywheel of these are the core features of of cancer. Uh all of those features have some relationship some very direct with increased energy resistance. Right? So if energy can't flow smoothly and a cell uh is you know burning too much energy and it doesn't flow energy through the mitochondria which is what cancer cells do cancer cells ditch their mitochondria and they revert back to this ancestral you know cell that didn't have mitochondria it was anorobic it was spitting out lactate and we don't really know why cells do this called the Warberg effect and the Warberg effect is when a cell in the presence of oxygen right if it wanted it could use oxygen flow electrons through mitochondria uh and transform energy and and live a nice social life like every cell in in this social collective does in the body. Uh what cancer cells do is they say I'm not going to use my mitochondria even if there's oxygen even if my mitochondria can respire. And by doing this it seems like cancer cells revert back to this ancestral cell right that that just cares about itself

Speaker B: the antisocial cell.

Speaker A: Yeah. then the the the organism will in the tumor will try to make more blood vessels around it. Right? It's called angioenesis. So it's like the the cancer cell trying to decrease energy resistance. It says bring me more oxygen.

Speaker B: So it's kind of like there's a sort of alien all of a sudden that decides it no longer wants to work with the rest of the organism and that it's going to be selfish and demand more and more resources for itself

Speaker A: and it multiplies itself.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: With equally selfish little aliens.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then the body responds by listening to it and giving it more resources. Is that what you're saying? Why do the blood vessels surround the cancer?

Speaker A: Yeah. It's like it's the cancer calling for you know more energy.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. So energy resistance is the product of two things. Is how much energy is being demanded right? Like how much power is being deployed in in the in the tumor for example or in the working muscle. Uh and then how much energy is can flow through the system. That's like the equivalent of current in an electrical system. So if there's a lot of demand, right, a lot of power is being generated or a lot of activity is happening like in a cancer cell, but there's not enough flow to to to support that activity, then that increases resistance.

Speaker B: So is there any understanding as to how those kind of cancers are caused? like what what causes that moment where you know you talked about the Wahberg effect what causes that

Speaker A: the cancer community used to think that the main driver for cancer was genetic mutations but there's an emerging perspective that changes in metabolism changes in the way electrons flow through through this energetic circuitry through the mitochondria can actually drive the uh instance of a of a new cancer cell and then when a cell becomes cancerous ditches it its mitochondria it goes back to this selfish state and

Speaker B: ...then it makes more of itself and it tries not to die.

Speaker A: Explain that part to me because I was reading about how cancer cells try and evade death.

Speaker B: Yeah. The best way to think about this I think is as a social collective, right? Every cell in this organism cares about the same thing which is preserving the life and health of the whole being, right? So every cell in this body is in a social contract with every other cell, right? A cancer cell basically gets out of this agreement and says no no I'm going to fare for myself. I'm going to take all the energy I can and I'm going to make more of myself and it goes into you know bacterial mode that happens sometimes because of mutations and it seems like there are other causes of this like for example hypoglycemia.

Speaker A: what's that

Speaker B: high blood glucose

Speaker A: right

Speaker B: diabetes is a major risk factor for developing cancer. why is that I don't think there are good explanations out there based on like the molecular framework of disease and you know the genetic mutation perspective um if you look at cancer from an energetic perspective and it's I think likely that the increase in blood glucose increases the pressure right there's more electrons that are being pushed onto those cells to those mitochondria and when you push too much energy on a system that doesn't need energy it's like you're trying to shove you know a lot of water through a very small you know container or into a channel that can't support that then the what happens kind of physically is an increase in the resistance to the flow. Uh and then that can lead to the cell trying to protect itself. Uh that's what insulin resistance is in diabetes. Right? Insulin resistance is a protection mechanism. there's too much glucose being pushed onto the cell, right? And so that causes this excess, you know, energy coming in. The cell says, you know, too much and and it damages the mitochondria, this excess resistance because there's too much heat produced, reactive oxygen species, oxidative stress.

Speaker A: I was thinking about smoking and how smoking also is carcinogenic. It's cancer-causing. Yeah. And through the lens of the mitochondria, how could something like smoking be cancer-causing?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's clear that in cigarette smoke there are carcinogens. They're molecules that can damage the genome and cause mutations. Uh it there's a strong link between lung cancer and smoking, but for all of the other cancers, there's much less of a clear connection between exposure and cancer, right? The cancers that affect and kill most people, uh we don't really know, you know, why they come, when they come. uh and it's clear that there's kind of a long history and uh the science behind you know connecting metabolism and cancer shows that obesity and uh high blood glucose and diabetes especially which causes very high you know excursion have very high spikes in blood glucose. Those things are damaging to our cells. And what the energy resistance principle says is that biology processes energy in terms of resistance and it makes that kind of computation. How much energy is flowing now? And then how much energy demand and how much energy pressure am I exposed to and if there's an imbalance then that causes damage.

Speaker A: Rather than being innocent bystanders, mitochondria are hijacked by cancer. The tumor reprograms them to stop acting like the body's protective energy factories and starts using them as a manufacturing plant to build more cancer cells. Because of this, targeting mitochondrial metabolism has become a major promising frontier in developing new cancer therapies.

Speaker B: Mhm. It hijacks the mitochondria and uses them to produce more cancer cells. Mhm.

Speaker A: H.

Speaker B: So a normal cell is driven its behavior is driven by the mitochondria. Like mitochondria are in the driver's seat, right? Mitochondria can basically call the shots. Is the cell to live and divide, right? Or is the cell to contract and remain this kind of cell? Or if it's a stem cell, is it to divide or remain a stem cell? Or is it to die? Right? And cells have to make these decisions all the time. And cell suicide for the greater good is something that happens all the time in our bodies. And that's why and how we get rid of most cancer cells, right? As far as we understand, you have a cell that kind of defects from the social collective and then the organism has the wisdom to say, okay, this is no longer ours. Let's get rid of it, right? Because it could become cancer. And most of the time that works well. But what cancer cells can do is say, okay, I'm they ditch their mitochondria and then they start to use them for their own growth and by ditching their mitochondria they basically immunize themselves against the death that mitochondria could could trigger. So mitochondria have a veto on cell life or death and cancer somehow is able to kind of get away from that.

Speaker A: And it's it's weird to think about because yeah the things that are cause cancer or that have a correlation to cancer are things like you know as you said like having too much of this stuff here too much sugar

Speaker B: the white stuff. Yes.

Speaker A: High blood glucose levels etc are linked to cancer. And one would wonder why eating sugar in excess is going to increase my probability of cancer. But obviously it points to the fact that it must be doing something to my energy systems which are causing some kind of malfunction somewhere.

Speaker B: Yeah. And what the energy resistance principle allows us to understand is why that is and what's really happening. If you overload your body with excess energy, the body has to deal with this. And in a simple electrical system circuit, if you jacked up, you know, the voltage and the system is is too weak to take this, then resistance goes through the roof. the transistors start to melt and then the system gets damaged. The same thing happens you know in the body if you overload the system with too much energy too many electrons right very direct parallel with the electrical circuit there electrons stuck here on these little glucose molecules if you ingest this now it increases the voltage in the body and then if the mitochondria can't keep up and because they're not flowing energy because you're sedentary you're not moving um then that increases the resistance right and then

Speaker A: and they might die or malfunction

Speaker B: correct or things get damaged, right? The clear connection here is too much energy increase energy resistance. So then the electrons that normally flow smoothly in your metabolism, right, from the food to your mitochondria, then that whole circuit becomes more resistive. And if you're an electron and you're trying to go through the metabolic pathways looking for oxygen in a mitochondrian, but then at every point in this cascade, you face resistance. there is more chance that that electron kind of jets out and then becomes oxidative stress.

Speaker A: Well, then what's going on with aging? I've got two women in front of me and they have two different colors of hair. Now, let's just pretend for argument sake and for the sake of this explanation that this is someone's hair that's gone gray because of stress. Um, and this is what she used to look like or he used to look like in terms of the color of their hair. What I found really interesting because it kind of speaks to lots of things that are going on in the body is you're saying you can actually reverse gray hair without dying it. And if so, what does that tell us about what gray hair is? But more broadly about stress, energy, mitochondria, and everything in between.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh what we discovered is that hair graying is reversible. And that was surprising because what I've learned and what most people learn is that when you age, it's kind of this linear progressive decline and there's kind of nothing you can do about it. Uh but it turns out that if you look on most people's head, um you can see things like this. This is obviously, you know, this was

Speaker A: dyed and all of the hairs were were white and then all the hairs are are are dark. And if you take a hair like this, uh the tip here, right, was inside the body long time ago. This is almost like if you looked at tree rings, right? You take a tree and you cut it in cross-section, you see like the rings and then you can say, "Ooh, this ring was uh 30 years ago, right? And this ring is today." Uh so you can use that to kind of map the history of what happened in the environment of of the tree. You can do the same thing. We all walk around with biological history crystallized in in this hair. And that's why if you want to know if someone had a drug for example like a month ago or six months ago or two years ago depending how long the hair is, you can actually use the hair and all along would be, you know, the chemical signature of what you took. So you can find marijuana in in the hair, you know, here but not here. So if you if you have marijuana 6 months ago, it's going to be in your hair and you're going to walk around uh with that trace, that physical trace in in your body.

Speaker B: He's got a haircut. I'm joking.

Speaker A: And the idea was if we could find hairs on someone's head that the tip was uh dark, right? And then when you look closer to the body, it becomes white, right? And you would say the hair was young, it was young, it was young, it was young, and then boom, it became old, right? It lo it lost color. Hair growing is a a classic hallmark of aging. Um then we thought then you would know something that something was happening in this hair follicle in this person's body, right? that made this young hair become old and then maybe we could understand the mechanisms of the aging process. So this became kind of an interesting scenario and through doing this we found people started to send us hair samples in Ziploc bags you know over the mail uh and we were looking for two colored hairs a single hair that has two colors kind of like this uh and we found hairs that uh you know head hair, beard hair, pubic hairs that showed the signature. the hair was dark and then it became white or the hair was white and it became dark again.

Speaker B: So we had physical evidence from like multiple people that showed white hairs can go back to being dark and this contradicted this idea that you know aging is this linear progressive process that we're kind of doomed to experience without any flexibility. I was one of the participants in that study. I ended up finding five hairs that had this pattern. And when we looked at when the reversal happened, we found that the re reversal happened when I went on vacation. And I would go back in those days on annual uh cycling uh training camps. So I would go for a week. Yeah. Where all you do is you bike, you eat, you sleep. Uh energy started to move very differently in my body during that that time. Um, and then when we looked at the hair and we analyze the the composition, the molecular composition, that's what scientists do. You can take a hair like this, snip the pieces, the white segment, the dark segment, it's all the same genome, right? Every hair has the same genome, the same genetic material, same food, uh, same physical activity, same everything. Why some hairs are like this or like that, uh, was an opportunity to understand the dynamics, the plasticity, like how life can go from being young to old or old back to young. Uh, and what we found was that the main signal was a mitochondrial signal. And in the white hair, I thought there's going to be less color, right? Obviously, but also probably less mitochondria, less, you know, some other things. We found that the white hairs have more mitochondria

Speaker A: and there was an upregulation of the body, the the hair follicle where the hair was becoming old wasn't kind of letting go of things. It was doing more. So that means during that period of time you are more stressed and using more energy.

Speaker B: When cells become old instead of just dying right they struggle and when a cell has damage in the DNA or the mitochondria not working properly or for some reason they accumulate damage they become old the cell struggles to make more mitochondria and it it tries to kind of compensate and then ends up wasting a lot of energy in the process. So on that hair what you looked at that was gray let's call it um it had more mitochondria because it was struggling and why was it struggling?

Speaker A: It looks like stress hormones can you know make a cell struggle for example

Speaker B: cortisol.

Speaker A: Cortisol. Yes, if you're a cell, right, and your perspective on the world is pretty simple, uh you don't have, you know, the senses that, you know, we we enjoy, but you do never let us, you know, sense the environment. If cortisol comes and you get the signal, uh it means there's something out there in the environment that's dangerous, right? You should be preparing for having to fight or to flight or there there's something out there that's dangerous. Our cells evolved to interpret cortisol in that way. Um so, we did an experiment in the dish. We wanted to know how much energy does it cost to worry about the future, right? Or how much energy does it cost to ruminate about yesterday?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: The thing you didn't do or the mistake you made at work or that conversation that went sideways, you know, with your partner. Uh how much energy does that cost to be thinking about this, to be, you know, engaging your stress system, to be releasing cortisol? Uh so two students in the lab, Gabriel and Natalia did that experiment. They put you put cells in a dish. You give them the equivalent of cortisol. how much energy is going to cost for these cells to prepare. There's nothing damaging to the cortisol itself, but the cortisol is a signal that there might be something dangerous outside, right? That's like when you're sitting down, you get an email, you're like, I might lose my job, right? Or I might not get this contract and then you you have this whole stress response. Your heart starts to beat faster. How much energy does that cost? Uh so in cells in a dish, we can isolate that question really well. We found that the stress hormone increased energy expenditure like the cost of life by 60%.

Speaker B: So when I'm stressed I'm using 60% more energy theoretically.

Speaker A: I don't know about you but cells in a dish.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So there the beauty about like bodies and you know with the mind and you know this complex organism they're buffering systems right? So you might I don't think your energy expenditure increases by 60% if you're stressed out but it increases somewhat. What is that graph there?

Speaker B: So there are two graphs here. Uh the top one is the color of the hair of a single hair from a young Asian woman who was part of the study. And what we see here, this is called the hair pigmentation pattern, the HPP that we we developed in the lab to understand quantitatively bring science to this to hair graying and and reversal. And so what you see here is this hair was dark and then it became white for two centimeters and then boom completely regained color. Actually it regained it was darker here than it than it used to be. Right. And then stayed dark afterwards. So this is a hair that we received uh in the mail as we were starting to to collect uh two colored hairs. Um and then when we when we saw this we we had found from a few different people white hairs that had regained color. We've never seen a hair like this. That's dark, white, and then dark. Right? So, I remember holding this hair. I was like, "Oh my god, this is in the same hair." This was incontrovertible evidence that graying of hair is reversible. And it can be pretty pretty fast. Like this transition here is just a few weeks. This is about one week, right? So, this white hair completely white regained color in just about a week. Um so then we developed an instrument which was a simple sheet on the yaxis the vertical is most stressful thing that ever happened to you. No stress at all. 10 and zero. And then on the x axis the horizontal was time. Yes. On the far right is now. Right. This is now. This is a year ago. And then we labeled all the months. And then we ask people and we ask this uh lady put a dot on the

Speaker A: graph that was the most stressful time in the past year that anyone can do the exercise past year most stressful time. Okay, maybe last March and then you put a dot right in March number 10 and then least stressful part zero and then put other like meaningful things that happened that were challenging. So people put dots, you know, along the this last year, then connect the dots, right? The red graph is her dots connected

Stephen: and it correlates perfectly to her hair going gray.

Speaker A: Correct. And what happened to her life? She said she finished her PhD thesis and she was jobless, but she was fine. She was happy to be done with her studies and then broke up with her boyfriend.

Stephen: Oh, damn. And her hair went gray.

Speaker A: Yeah. Broke up with her boyfriend. She didn't know what was happening with her life. She had to travel to Europe. There was some family drama. Uh she said these were the la the most stressful two months of my life.

Stephen: There's a killer question here which is if that remains chronic does that hair follicule go gray forever.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Stephen: I.e. if I go through a a stressful period for 2 to 3 weeks and my hair goes a bit gray. As long as I get out of that stressful period as quick as possible, does that hair then return to to black or dark?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Stephen: Do you see what I'm saying here?

Speaker A: Yes. It seems like and we ran some like fancy mathematical model to understand why this would be possible, why it could happen like now for this hair and then be reversible. But we know, you know, very well if you have a full head of gray hair and you're 70 years old, you're not going to regain your color.

Stephen: Yeah.

Speaker A: So there seems to what the model the mathematical model suggested is that there's a window of opportunity, right? where a hair slowly accumulates damage, becomes more and more probably energetically inefficient, right? So there's more and more energy resistance and then there's a barrier and then when the the hair hits that threshold now it loses color.

Stephen: It's done.

Speaker A: Yeah. But then if something changes in the body, right, you go on vacation or you start to do intermittent fasting and then there's more energy available for your dark hair. Now it can be reversed, right? Because you can go back up against that threshold. But then eventually this hair is going to go gray again. And then if you're way way down like this hair turned gray 10 years ago and you go back up, you're too far away from threshold to regain color.

Stephen: Okay?

Speaker A: So it suggests some threshold model that there's a window of opportunity for some something as binary as hair color. It's black or it's white, right? So there's kind of a window of opportunity there where

Stephen: where you can reverse gray hair.

Speaker A: Yes. I I do want to come back to this hair thing, but it did make me think because you you added a layer of nuance there, which is about the mind. Like if I go through my life um with a more resilient mind and you get that bad email and you go and I get the bad email, I go, "Fuck it. Who cares?"

Stephen: Yeah.

Speaker A: Am I therefore going to be a way more productive person throughout those 24 hours because my mitochondria are using less energy because there's less cortisol?

Stephen: Yeah. Based on what we know, I think that's likely correct. So, it's not the stress that burns us down, it's the response to stress. And nothing is free in biology. And for your heart to beat a little faster, if you mount a response to that email, right, you're burning energy in your heart. And then you're tensing your, you know, your your shoulder. That's burning energy. Now, your brain is going into like rumination mode and then this thing and then then it makes you think about your childhood and this and like and then the anx the anxiety and then you start to sweat like everything costs energy. So the chain of events is I get the email. It's a very bad email. Says, "You're fired, Stephen, from the dire. We found a different host."

Speaker A: Yeah.

Stephen: Um I look at the email that goes into my psychology, my mind. I then have a story I tell myself about what that email means for me, my future, my children, whatever. Which then causes a physiological response of like chemicals like cortisol.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Stephen: um which goes into my cells, my mitochondria, which then have to work a little bit harder or use more energy, which is ultimately then going to mean that I'm more tired because I have a finite amount of energy per day.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Stephen: Is that is that sequence of events? I ask about that sequence because it offers me an opportunity to intervene at some point.

Speaker A: Yes. Yes. That's a great way to think about it.

Stephen: Don't open the laptop

Speaker A: or like get a little bit better with bad news.

Stephen: Yeah. or you know learn to be less reactive, right? Or learn to to feel and and um you know sit with be aware of that reaction because the key solution to kind of to to cutting that sequence of event that ends up draining you is to become aware of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Become aware of it. Yeah.

Stephen: Right. uh so you can kind of interrupt this and people who study contemplative practices and and meditation and you know mindfulness approaches I think many of them think this is kind of the key right the the awareness the somatic awareness or introsception so if you feel into your your bodilies responses you become free of do I mount a response is that needed now or not

Speaker A: there's different types of stress right there's like the acute stress which is just you get the email you feel a little bit of a spike but 5 minutes like you're fine.

Stephen: Yep.

Speaker A: And then there's the more chronic type of stress where you're waking up every day with the same feeling of stress deep inside you for many many days in a row, many weeks in a row. Um I hear that acute stress isn't all that bad and it's very normal and useful, but it's this chronic stress that can cause a lot of damage.

Stephen: Yeah. And I think that brings us back to the concept of how is energy flowing through the body. And if it flows with not enough resistance, you can't survive. But if there's too much resistance, then you get drained. How do I think about this resistance thing? Because I'm really struggling with like understanding it.

Speaker A: Maybe one good example to to frame this is exercise.

Stephen: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. When you start to exercise, there's increased resistance in your muscle, right? Your muscles are contracting. So there's a physical resistance there, but there's also energy resistance. So the the energy is trying to flow through the muscle and then there's you have mitochondria. If you have just a few mitochondria and the muscles are contracting really hard like you're running, you're sprinting, right? You're doing interval training. Um, now the mitochondria don't have the capacity to flow as much energy as the muscle is asking, right? So that imbalance of demand to flow capacity. Now the the product of this the demand divided by flow capacity is resistance. Okay? So if you demand a lot of your muscle because of your your your sprint uh but you don't have a lot of mitochondria right it's going to feel terrible uh and then because the resistance creeps up and then your muscle you know becomes really hot and then eventually there's inflammation uh and then it burns and and then it's uncomfortable uh but then so that's like an acute bout of of energy resistance. What happens with exercise is once you recover right the benefits of exercise don't happen during the exercise they happen after during the recovery. So if you recover now you you're the muscles are relaxing and you're resting eventually you go you know for you go to sleep. Uh it's the in during the decrease in resistance now the cell says next time this happens I better be ready. Like this was really uncomfortable. There was too much energy shoved into a system that couldn't take it right. Right? So, I need next I'm going to make more mitochondria. So, that that's what happens if you go from being a sedentary couch potato, right, to training for a marathon. You can double the amount of mitochondria you have in your muscles. And that's the system feeling the the rise in resistance like I don't have the capacity to flow that much energy and then adapting for this for the next time and next time I'm going to be ready.

Guest: Let's make more mitochondria. So, that's probably where the benefits of exercise come from. This spike in stress is not a bad thing intrinsically, right? If you have a spike of stress, it stimulates the body to put in place things that in the long run makes you more efficient, decreases your resistance. Then you can go through life with less resistance.

Stephen: Coming back to this gray hair thing. So if we consider gray hair, my hair going gray to be the last domino that fell. So like the symptom, then what is the first domino? And can you walk me through the sequence of events because one would assume that if I understand that sequence of events I can also understand how to then reverse it, how to kind of take... I got a couple of gray hairs now and I actually anecdotally do think weirdly now you've said this that I have like gray hair flare-ups where I'll go you know go through a couple of weeks or months of doing something and I'll look in the mirror like what I have 12 now I'm being generous there's more like 25 I have 25 now. In terms of those dominoes, the symptom is gray hair. What is the first domino that falls? And what is the sequence of events that leads to the gray hair in the follicule?

Guest: So there's a finite energy budget and then what the organism does is it allocates energy in different places like a business, right? You have this budget. Do I put more energy here? Do I put, you know, more resources here? If so, I need to take resources away from here. Right? So as stress happens in your life, it pulls energy away from some of the things that keep you young, right? So there's a kind of a hierarchy of energy needs in the body. Not everything can be prioritized the same way. Do you know Maslow's hierarchy of human needs?

Stephen: Yeah.

Guest: Yeah. So Maslow's insight was...

Stephen: Oh my god, I just freaked out. My hand reached down and I just felt someone's head. It was just I was...

Guest: Acute stress response.

Stephen: Yeah. I just Yeah. Caught us off. Sorry. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah.

Guest: So there's a hierarchy of energy needs in the body that works similarly to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Maslow said for a human being to be fully realized first you need to have safety and food and shelter secured. Right? Once you have this and you feel this is kind of covered in your life, then you can start to think about building relationships with other people, right? Loving relationships. Once you have this settled, now you can start to think about building your skills, right? Like becoming really good at something. And then once you have this covered now you can devote energy to the more frivolous things like spirituality what do you call self-actualization and kind of becoming your best self flourishing.

So he saw this very much as this needs to be covered and when things get really hard and there are constraints on your life the first thing to go is the top of the pyramid right your meditation practice or the long-term type like I'm going to be a better person no like I need to make sure we can put food on the table next week right. Um so this hierarchy of human needs I think aligns with hierarchy of energy needs in the body and as far is the importance of hair color goes, it's pretty low on the hierarchy.

So as the body gets older and you have more and more cells in the body that start to be less efficient right there mitochondria working a little less efficiently and then there's more inflammation in the body that's costing energy and there's more worries about professional obligations and all of these things kind of stack up and steal energy away from the things that are there we call them growth maintenance and repair. These are like the anti-aging processes in the body and those need energy, but they're not as important as, you know, facing the stressor that you think is life-threatening. Now,

Stephen: so if there's a lion chasing me, my body is going to commit all the energy I have to getting away from this lion. And it might say, "Listen, Stephen, we're not going to repair the skin next to your eyes. you're going to get a couple more wrinkles and we're not going to make your we're not going to commit energy to making sure your follicles in your hair produce black pigment or whatever."

Stephen: So, I would then look aged. I would look older.

Stephen: But that's because all of my energy has been going to something else which my body considered to be a high priority.

Guest: Correct. Which also brings me to I guess the famous what we always talk about with presidents because presidents go into office often with dark hair and they come out with gray hair and usually one does not age that quickly in 8 years.

Stephen: We see the same in the Premier League with football managers. They walk in on that first day they look very spritly and energetic and two years later they have gray hair, bags under their eyes, wrinkles and they look like they've aged 10 years.

Stephen: Yeah. So, you're telling me actually that the real secret to anti-aging, if there was one, is this is the proper allocation of energy. So, if you don't waste energy stressing out about the future and the past, and you can spend more time in the moment not being overly reactive to things, which is kind of a lifelong effort, then more of that precious energy can go towards anti-aging. Can I also pull more energy in the top? Like, can I just if I get more energy, does that mean that there's less likelihood that we're going to run out of energy when it comes to my hair follicles being black or gray?

Guest: Yeah. The thing is, it doesn't look like we have the flexibility. Like, if you want to have more energy and you want to age more slowly, eating more does is not going to give you more energy.

Stephen: So, is there anything I can do to have more energy available?

Guest: Uh, you can become more efficient.

Stephen: I can become more efficient, but I can't put more in.

Guest: No.

Stephen: Hm. And how does one become more efficient then? You know, you said about stress. Okay, I'm going to live a less stressed life.

Guest: Yeah, it seems like there's a few things that we know makes organism more efficient. One is exercising.

Stephen: Okay.

Guest: Right. Because when you exercise again, you're increasing energy resistance, uncomfortable, potentially you're damaging things, right? Because you're increasing what we call dissipative losses, right? Oxidative stress and all sorts of things happen during the exercise, but then when you recover now, the body's like, "Next time this happens, I'm going to be ready." And the process of getting ready to go through a high resistance, you know, gym session is that you make more mitochondria, right? your muscles get bigger and stronger and your heart becomes more efficient and your arteries, you know, become more become softer and you develop, you know, the confidence that you can do this well.

Um, and then it becomes rewarding. You, you know, it becomes enjoyable. So, all of these things now that you're off the gym session,

Stephen: right, you spend an hour in the gym telling the body, "This is what we're going to do in the future." And then the body's like, "Okay, I'm going to get ready."

Guest: if there's a fixed energy budget, the only way really to get ready for this is to become more efficient. So by having more mitochondria, by having a more fluid um and kind of flexible cardiovascular system and by putting in place all of these changes, decreasing inflammation, right? All of these things make more energy available. It decreases the energetic cost of doing the activity and then there's more energy available for anti-aging, growth, maintenance, and repair, vitality.

So, I suspect that's why you burn more energy when you exercise, but you feel like you have more. And you don't actually have more. The feeling that you have more energy is simply energy flowing more smoothly through this thing.

Stephen: It's more efficient. I've got more mitochondria.

Guest: Yeah.

Stephen: Okay. What else? What about food? You know, I've got coffee here. I've got some alcohol here. I've got the sugar. what I consume,

Speaker A: how does that impact the efficiency of the energy flowing through my body?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. Uh alcohol, what we know about alcohol is that as we talked about earlier, nothing is free in biology, right? So, if you put something in the body that shouldn't be there, effectively a toxin like ethanol, which is what's in there, uh it's going to cost energy to get rid of it. So there are detoxification systems in your liver primarily that takes alcohol, breaks down the molecule and then you can pee it out, right? Or metabolize it for energy even. Uh so there's a bunch of of energy in ethanol, but when you take alcohol, it doesn't give you more energy. If anything, the next day you feel like because what happens is you you waste energy degrading the alcohol, right? and and even though it's a net plus, you're putting calories in the machine in the body. Uh but uh what ends up happening is you burn energy getting rid of it. So there's a a cool study where they brought people in, they gave them a bunch of alcohol, they're you know effectually effectively drunk and then they measured how much energy are they burning and you can do those kind of studies. We we've done those studies in the lab in a small room. You put a human being and then you just measure how much energy does it cost for them to stay alive, right? Then you ask them to not do too much in this smaller room. They're just sitting down reading a book. Um and then then you can ask them, "Okay, now drink this alcohol." And then you measure, you look, you minute by minute they drink the alcohol and then you start to see, oo, it climbs up. So the alcohol, even though you feel relaxed inside under the hood, the body's like burning energy to get rid of the alcohol. And other toxins probably work the same way. You know, pesticides or kind of the things we eat that we shouldn't be eating. The reason why those things might be bad for our health maybe because they they steal energy away from you know a growing body for example uh there's good data in South America children who are exposed to more pathogens right there's no sanitation they walk barefoot they they eat stuff you know that's not clean and um they have more pathogens uh in their gut right there there's more uh viruses bacteria and parasites uh it costs energy to fight those things enough. That's why you feel like when you're burning when when you're fighting a flu for example, right? Your immune system, your immune cells are like, whoa, you know, virus like COVID or, you know, any, you know, seasonal flu virus. The immune system goes into overdrive to kill this virus and get rid of it. And then that the immune system steals energy away from the brain, from from your mind. And then you feel like ah everything is so difficult. You just want to be in bed over covers. you feel cold, which is strategy to basically save energy. So all of the what's called sickness behavior, right? All of those features of your behavior, you become asocial, right? Your skin is more sensitive, so you avoid moving. Uh it's like all of those features can be understood as energy conservation strategies, stressors, alcohol, parasites, all kind of have this increase the cost of living. Uh and then because there's a cap on your energy budget, uh then that energy needs to be coming from somewhere else.

Speaker A: And if you're in those states for long periods of time, you're in a chronic state of um I guess like energetic distraction is the way I'd think about it.

Speaker B: That's that's a cool way to think about it.

Speaker A: I was thinking about it. I was thinking about it like if you you my body has an army of 10 soldiers and usually those 10 soldiers are like at work doing the things that I need to do to survive and grow and flourish. And then when I have one of these, I don't know, some sort of toxic substance comes into my body, you're basically saying that four of those soldiers have to be reassigned to go deal with this invader. And so now I only have six that are focused on everything I need to flourish, which is why I probably feel sometimes.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Um, and what if if there's only six working on my, you know, fundamental requirements to flourish, then some of those things are going to have to give way and I might end up with gray hair and I might end up with wrinkles or maybe my brain won't function the same. Maybe a disease, you know, my immune system won't be taken care of in the same way.

Speaker B: Yeah. Immune system won't be there clearing the cancer cells, for example. Um, and the repair processes that happen all the time in the brain, right? clearing out proteins that you don't need, uh repairing dam DNA that's get gotten damaged, making new mitochondria. All of these processes happen like every day. Every day you go through a little phase of getting rid of the things that don't work too well to make more of the things that work well like mitochondria, quality control, it's called, right? So there's this quality control cycle. Old mitochondria that don't work too too well anymore, they get degraded. It's called mphagy. Autophagy is selfeing. Mphagy is selfeing of the mitochondria. So when a cell, for example, is is hungry. If you pull energy away from the cell, the cell goes into a mode like, oh I might run out of energy. I need to be really efficient here. So let's get rid of those mitochondria that aren't really contributing their share. Uh, and then I'll have just the best functioning mitochondria, and then when food comes back on board, the cell makes more of the better ones.

Speaker A: It made me think of Alzheimer's and dementia, weirdly, because I don't really know a huge amount about Alzheimer's and dementia, but I know that something clearly goes wrong in the body that produces these plaques and and you know, you often hear that there's lots of things we consume or do that increase our probability of getting Alzheimer's and dementia. So, is that at all linked to the same sort of like energy distraction?

Speaker B: It's been long believed that the plaque right that you've heard about uh amaloided plaques and tow tangles and there's kind of this idea that the brain accumulates proteins and it's those proteins that cause Alzheimer's. I think that's what most people have heard and what most people believe because it came from you know white coatwearing scientists and university professors. Um that is not the truth. And what is more true is and and let me just say why it's not the truth. You can have people in their 60s and their 70s and their 80s zero protein deposit in the brain. We can image this now pretty well with neuroiming. You can have people zero protein deposit in the brain and they have full-blown Alzheimer's and dementia. And you have the other extreme people with loads of amaloid plaques and towangles completely normal cognition. So those extremes really tell us this hypothesis this amaloid you know protein aggregates in the brain as a driver of dementia and neuro degeneration is not correct. Uh what we know happens energetically in the brain is that initially in the early stages of Alzheimer's there's kind of an increase in energy demand in the there's specific brain regions that tend to be more affected in some people not not all people tend to have those protein deposits. those regions start to burn more energy. This is early phase, right? And then at this point, probably this is the brain trying to cope, right? It's like something's not working great, but it's working harder, right?

Speaker A: Like like with the gray hair.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And then over time the those brain regions become hypometabolic and then that's when you start to have symptoms.

Speaker A: What does that mean?

Speaker B: That's that's when people start to have memory issues. And uh you said hyper metabolic. Hyper metabolic. This is hyper metabolic is kind of this energy distraction you were talking about like there's more energy being burned here. Normal metabolic is you know you use 100 units of energy for the brain and this let's say this brain region 100 units of energy is what this brain region needs to just sustain normal healthy functions. Uh if there's a problem with the mitochondria or if there's a problem with you know the cell communicating with the synapses right the cells talk to each other through these things

Speaker A: called synapses. uh if there's a problem now the the that part of the brain is going to need to do more work to compensate uh and then we know something happens with neurodeeneration and Alzheimer's is inflammation neuroinflammation that basically means there are some cells in the brain that are trying to heal the brain and part of that healing process is kind of a stress response locally and then that stress response leads to the secretion of little proteins we call cytoines and then it's basically those cells saying something's wrong. We need to fix this. So that costs energy. So you have those cells that get activated. They they secrete those proteins to say please help. You know the we need to reestablish homeostasis. We need to reestablish normal healthy balance. But that process of reestablishing of healing costs energy just like when you're post exercise your muscle invests energy to to become stronger. So in that kind of early phase hyper meta metabolism is when you spend more energy hyper uh function some people have called it and then eventually it seems like those brain regions get tired out and then they become hypom metabolic so they burn less energy. So if you look at the brain of someone with Alzheimer's, there are these regions that are that burn less energy and energy is so central to everything including cognition, right? In order to have an idea and to be conscious of that idea, you need to burn energy. So the the brain kind of burning less energy in later stages kind of reflects this lack of function. You know, the the it's difficult to remember, you know, old memories. It's it's remembered. It's difficult to to make associations. it becomes difficult to plan in the future um and to regulate your emotions and you know a lot of people with dementia end up having kind of mood issues. They become really depressed and it

Speaker B: is this is this why they call it type three diabetes because I've just heard that phrase quite a lot recently.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so my hunch is that Alzheimer's and dementia more generally is a disorder of energy and specifically it's a disorder of you know increased energy resistance. So there's type three diabetes comes from the fact that when the brain gets sick, right? And symptoms of dementia start to appear like loss of memory and mood and depression and that constellation of symptoms. When you look in the brain, it's burning less energy, but it's also harder for glucose to get inside the brain.

Speaker B: It's less efficient.

Speaker A: It's so there's yes a loss of efficiency but an increased resistance, right? or a decrease in conductance for energy for glucose for example to get inside the brain to be processed and and be used.

Speaker B: And why might that be?

Speaker A: Because you're pushing too much glucose on the system.

Speaker B: Oh, okay.

Speaker A: If you load up the system all the time with with glucose, with sugar in the blood and glycemia is high, you have diabetes perhaps. This is all the time like pressure pushing energy onto this the system that's like really delicate and it's not like jacking the the voltage on your lamp that eventually you know is going to catch fire. uh we are a slow burning fire right like the inside of our our cells you have the electrons flowing and when there are sparks flying it damages the mitochondria it damages this damages that and that increases that's what aging is aging the the most basic mechanism of aging including brain aging that leads to Alzheimer's is the accumulation of little damage little mutations little defects little imperfections and as the imperfections accumulate the system becomes less efficient insulin resistance basically And diabetes refers to the fact that muscles but also the brain can has the capacity to say I I can't anymore like glucose too much for me too much resistance too much you know damage that I that I'm exposed to. So if you're a muscle cell and you want to protect yourself against this excess energy pressure right from the glucose from the from the electrons uh you can become insensitive or resistant to insulin. So then you you take the the receptors that are sitting on top of the surface of the cell, you pull those out, right? So then the cell no longer is sensitive to insulin. So then the body's like whoa, like glucose is way high. What you a normal healthy body releases insulin, floods the blood, insulin goes to the surface of uh of your muscles and then says take in the glucose because there's too much glucose in the blood. It's we're going to damage the brain. We're going to damage the eyes. We're going to damage the nerves. So muscle please take in that glucose. But when the muscle is overwhelmed and the mitochondria are starting to be uh you know at capacity in terms of how much energy they can uh resist and and and flow then they shut down the valves right so the muscle cells become insulin resistant and then glucose intolerant and that protects the mitochondria in the muscle cells. Uh but then gluc blood glucose uh starts to increase. So the next step in this cascade is well if there's too much energy in circulation too much sugar too much fat what what can we do with this and that's where fat stores you know adeposity uh comes in so obesity is a protection mechanism against excess energy resistance

Speaker B: one way to think about this hypothesis that dementia Alzheimer's is linked to an overflow of glucose let's today is to look at other civilizations or um I don't know tribes the tribe in Africa who don't have a lot of glucose do they still get Alzheimer's and dementia I don't know the literature on this but it's clear that people who if you if we look at what makes you more likely to have Alzheimer's what makes you less likely to have Alzheimer's all the things that make you more likely to have Alzheimer's contribute to increasing this energy resistance right too much sugar in the blood diabetes physical inactivity, right? If you don't move, energy doesn't flow through your mitochondria. So, it just stacks up, accumulates, and and the things that protects the brain, protects you against Alzheimer's and dementia or things that let energy flow, physical activity, uh not eating too much, especially not eating too much sugar, uh and and then ketones. There's new, you know, data now showing that ketones can uh, you know, enter the brain and be metabolized more easily and can even kind of improve cognition. And the ketogenic diet, which I know you've tried, many people report more energy on the ketogenic diet. It's not because you eat more calories. It's because those uh electrons that are stuck on ketones instead of being stuck on glucose can flow more more easily. And those ketones are made by mitochondria in your liver. This is a really beautiful story of this the sociality of mitochondria and the organism. The liver mitochondria is where ketones are made. If you eat like fat, right, avocados and oil and and meat and uh butter and uh those fat molecules and go in the liver and then the mitochondria in the liver, take those fat, transform them into ketones and then put the ketones into the blood. The kidneys also do a little bit of this and then the ketones go to the brain and then they feed the mitochondria in the brain. So you have mitochondria in the liver talking and feeding mitochondria in the brain. And the path for a ketone to go from blood to mitochondria is much shorter in terms of number of enzymes, number of resistors, if you want to think about it energetically uh than for glucose. That path is very long. The ketone path is much shorter. I just want to make sure on that point that I don't misunderstand because you know it sound it could have sounded like you're saying that too much energy might cause Alzheimer's but actually you're saying you're not saying because I think of ketones as energy and I I'm I'm shot in you know ketones all the time. I don't want to flood my brain with energy so that you know malfunctions gets Alzheimer's. It's it for some reason it's really hard to overwhelm the brain

Speaker A: with ketones

Speaker B: and with ketones or overwhelm the body if you eat fat like it's it's very easy to feel like I'm full.

Speaker A: I've had you know a good enough meal if you bring sugar into the picture and you mix sugar and fat now things like taste so good and there's like an extra reward and a lot of people eat for

Guest: ...different reasons not just because they're hungry. That's because it's so rewarding to eat something fatty and sugary, especially the sugar part. Then you lose regulation and that's why I think the GLP-1 drugs are so powerful because they address the problem where it starts. Like how much food are you putting into the system?

Host: Yeah, I did look at the stats there on the tribes in Africa and it says when researchers study indigenous groups such as the Hadza hunter gatherer tribe in Tanzania or rural agrarian populations like the Euraba they find that Alzheimer's and vascular dementia are exceptionally rare.

Guest: >> Mhm. which again means that it points to western diets,

Host: >> western diet, western

Guest: >> lifestyles,

Host: >> behavior.

Guest: You know, these people move all the time. Um, and they don't eat too much. Um, most of them don't need to kind of rely on their fat capacitor. They don't have excess energy to just store away. And for some people, there's congenital leanness, right? Like you're born lean and you can't put on fat if you eat too much. the high sugar or high fat just accumulates in the blood and then it gets lodged in ectopic ways. So it gets lodged in the muscle or in the liver or in the brain um and then that causes damage because of you know this like excess energy pressure and then the system overheats

Host: >> skinny fat.

Guest: >> Skinny fat. Yeah.

Host: >> And that stores it near around your livers and stuff. What's that called that fat inside you?

Guest: >> Visceral.

Host: >> Visceral fat.

Guest: And the visceral fat is linked to increased inflammation and it's linked to a bunch of diseases. But this is just a symptom like the increased fat. And I think the reason why obesity in general we say obesity is bad is because obesity reflects a deeper state, a more important state with which is this increased energy resistance. Like there's too much energy in the system and the system can't flow it. Like the mitochondria can't keep up. So to protect themselves, they store that and store that away and then you become obese.

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Host (Stephen): So on this point of food then fasting, autophagy, all these words that I've heard. If you were giving me advice on everything you know about how to create a body that is very very efficient in how I deal with the energy that I have. What advice would you give me as it relates to eating?

Guest: >> Develop that awareness of what your body needs. So when I think about how I eat, I don't think about, you know, my weight or my body. I think about how am I feeling and do I need more food, right? Am I like depleted or am I tired and exhausted because there's too much food on board and my organism is like struggling to keep up with this excess like friction or excess you know energy pressure and on my brain on my on my mitochondria. So I think about it from the perspective of my mitochondria. What do my mitochondria need? Uh and in general it's much harder to uh you know deplete the mitochondria like not eating too much. So if you're thinking about okay there's this food there do I snack do I not snack uh generally eating too much there there are clear consequences to this like it increases the resistance or the friction in in your mitochondria not eating enough is typically innocuous for most people

Host (Stephen): >> because we we have stores don't we of glycogen and we have stores of glucose in our body in our muscles anyway so if we were running low then our our body can go get some fat metabolize it

Guest: >> exactly make ketones

Host (Stephen): >> make ketones

Guest: >> y yeah the Most people have enough energy on board, right, in the form of fat, some glycogen in your muscles and your liver, uh, to live at least a month.

Host (Stephen): >> I mean, I'm I'm a big big fan of survival documentaries. And one of the most remarkable things you see in survival documentaries, I'm even thinking about some that I've watched, is people can survive for seemingly months without eating anything,

Guest: >> and they can't survive long without water. Yeah.

Host (Stephen): >> But they can survive for months without eating anything um because their body will start to kind of go into its reserves. Yeah.

Guest: >> And break down muscle and all these other things.

Host (Stephen): >> Yeah. Yeah. The record is the world record for not eating is over 300 days.

Guest: >> Wow.

Host (Stephen): >> Irish man. Um and he lost I forget the exact numbers. 250 lb 300 lb.

Host (Stephen): >> What does this say about hunger? And also what does it say about this society we live in where we have some people have like five meals. Some people basically just eat from morning till night, you know.

Guest: >> Yeah. I I think a lot of us eat not because we're hungry. I think a lot of us as have learned to eat to to subserve some other need and eating is quite rewarding. It taps into the same systems, you know, as gambling and um kind of connecting with other human beings. So, we know some people eat emotionally, right? When they're stressed out, they they they eat more. Um, so I think hunger is is something to be skeptical of because there are many pathways that I think kind of converge on hunger. Like if you feel sad, you feel like bored, um, hunger will kind of get you out of boredom because of the salt, because of this, especially if you had salty, sugary things around, uh, it's a rewarding thing that will get you out of uncomfortable other uncomfortable sensations. I think most of us overeat. That's um a good general assumption to make. You're probably overeating.

Host (Stephen): >> I think I probably am.

Guest: >> Um it's harder to overeat if you restrict your eating window, right? And that works really well for some people. Um like eating, for example, a very severe kind of window would be 2 p.m. to 6 p.m., right? So you eat for 4 hours and you kind of put this around dinner time so you can be social with your partner or something like that. Uh that tends to work well for a lot of people who have been in the habit of overeating. Um and my dad, you know, still thinks to this day, he's 69 now. Um that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. That's what he learned when he was a kid. And he wants to believe that this is true. I don't think it's true for most people. And especially if you're in your 60s, 70s, right? Like metabolism

Martin: changes. And if you're always eating you, the body never goes into this state of I must be efficient, right? And then if you go into that state of I must be efficient, you accumulate poorly functioning mitochondria and then there's more friction, you know, in your whole body. There's more inflammation, which is a signal of that energy friction or resistance and then you don't feel as good, right? You don't feel you have as much energy. So many people who go from eating three meals a day plus or minus snacks to like intermittent fasting, they just say, "I'm going to eat whatever I want, however much I want, but just in those four hours or 6 hours." Most of those people uh have a lot more energy. They experience, right, that they have more energy. It's not because there's more energy in their body. If anything, they're putting fewer calories in the body, but the way energy flows now, it flows more efficiently. And we don't perceive the amount of energy, we perceive the flow energy or the transformation of energy.

Interviewer: And I was just reading there that it says that this idea that breakfast is the most important meal of the day came from an advertising campaign that was designed to sell cereal and bacon. Um before the industrial revolution, breakfast wasn't a heavily scrutinized meal. People often just ate whatever was left over from the night before or they ate a quick heavy meal before going out to do physical farm labor. But as people moved into cities and took sedentary office jobs, those heavy greasy breakfasts started causing widespread ingestion. Enter Harvey Kelloggs. Yes, that Kelloggs. He ran a famous health sanitarium and believed that a clean, light, grain-based diet would cure ingestion and improve overall health. He co-invented cornflakes and he and other cereal pioneers pushed the narrative that a healthy cold cereal breakfast was essential for a productive day. And your dad bought it hookline and sinker.

Martin: Yep. I mean, a lot of people did.

Interviewer: Everybody did.

Martin: And and I did until recently until I started to like feel into this. I would have this big bowl of cereals. That's how I grew up as well. And then I would feel like this low like this um you know low energy and I think now I understand why because I was overloading my system with way too much kind of rapidly available sugary energy that I didn't need. Uh and then the body needs to find a way to handle this. Either you get fat which I can't do. So then it goes kind of into my brain and then makes me feel lousy.

Interviewer: So on this point then just to close off on this diet question. If I want to feel really really optimal on a given day, I probably do want a smaller eating window and I probably want to eat just what I need and I want to not overeat. I don't want to undereat, but I don't want to overeat.

Martin: If you undereat, you're going to pick it up tomorrow.

Interviewer: I'll pick it up tomorrow anyway. So, I'll be fine tomorrow. But the worst thing is overeating today, which is going to impact my performance today.

Martin: Correct.

Martin: And food is one thing that influences where energy goes in the body, how it flows. Um and and just maybe to close the loop on that example like when you're sick and you're fighting an infection.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Martin: I had a a beautiful opportunity to understand not just under understand to experience this one day. It was New Year's Eve uh 31st in the evening and I started to feel like a little scratchy throat. I'm like, "Oh, I think I'm getting sick." So I I go to, you know, the the evening dinner. I didn't cough or anything. out of I don't think I was contagious, but I just could feel right like something was was coming up. I felt terrible. I was I had started to have like full-blown flu symptoms. Went home early at like 10 9:00 p.m. Um and then I went to bed. It was horrible night. Hor I felt even I was in pain and then my I had like massive fever. I took a bath, a warm bath to help my fever kind of, you know, go up so that it could fight the high fever stimulates your immune cells and weakens the virus. So, it's a it's it's usually a good thing.

Martin: Um, and then next day I was out and I was so depressed and I was like, I should write about this. I'm writing a book on on energy and energy constraints and like the the division partitioning of energy in and the body. I was like, I should write about this. This is so interesting. My immune system is in full-blown defense mode. And it's not like I I was like I could feel my heart. I'm wearing this aura. My heart rate was like 110 at at rest instead of being like 60, you know, normally. So there's all of this energy flowing through. It's like wow. Like my metabolic rate objectively is higher. We know this is true from from you know good studies on that when you're fighting something you burn more energy. U yet I'm feeling completely drained. Right? And so it's not like the amount of energy that's flowing through that I should feel more energetic. My immune system in that moment uh was draining all my energy drain sucking away my energy from you know from my from my mind from my brain perhaps.

Martin: Um and I remember thinking it wouldn't be a whole lot of energy if I just pull my laptop like prop myself on the bed and then start to write what I'm experiencing in the moment. Right? Like the uh and but I couldn't muster the strength. It's like what what the like why would I care? I couldn't care, right? And this is the stuff I care about on a daily basis. But in that state of my energy being disrupted, I couldn't care about this. And then I started to think about work and about, you know, the the lab and about uh, you know, family things. I was like, whoa, it's my whole life feels so different.

Interviewer: I don't care about anything.

Martin: Yeah. I don't care about anything. I just I'm just trying to survive.

Interviewer: That's so interesting cuz I can relate so much.

Martin: Yeah. I mean, but everyone has been through like a difficult like you when you're really sick

Interviewer: or when you're really stressed.

Martin: Yeah.

Interviewer: Or just anything that's all consuming like that.

Martin: Exactly. That's like Maslo's pyramid, right? The the top is squished and you're like survival and

Interviewer: like where where did I go? Where's where's Yeah, I remember that.

Martin: So, I was still me, right? I was still Martin, but I I felt completely different. The quality of my of my mind, the quality of of my intention was like completely different. I was just trying to survive. I didn't care about anything else. So that episode went on for like two days or so. Through day number three, I was able to take my computer and like start to feel again the purpose. But it was so interesting that just the what what it felt like when I was able to write about it and really feel into it. It felt like I was diffused energy like the light for example, right? Is a form of energy. You can have a laser. And the difference between a laser and a an incandescent light bulb like an old style filament light bulb is not the amount of energy is the the way the energy is patterned.

Interviewer: And in a laser you have every photon that are kind of in phase with one another

Martin: and then there's a coherence to it, right? And it's the coherence that gives a laser its power.

Interviewer: Uh it's not the total amount of energy. the same amount of energy if you put in an incandescent light bulb. Now it's the same energy but it's diffused, right? Every photon is doing its own thing. They're all going in all over the place. And then if you want to look at how far can these photons go, right? How far can my mind go? Caring about things. The diffused energy doesn't go very far. Uh but the the laser can go super far. So my mind had become like a diffuse incandescent light bulb.

Interviewer: I the two things came to mind when you said that. The first is in my previous company because we were a startup fast growing we had cash flow issues cash making sure we had enough money coming in from our clients whatever to pay our staff was always a problem for anyone that doesn't know um when a business is growing quickly it's usually spending more today than it's receiving in. So even if you're you're growing from like 1 million to 6 million to 12 million to 25 million or whatever as we did you you

Speaker A: ...still have a cash flow problem. And there would be times when we're nearing the end of the month and months months in a row and I had the same cash flow stress. I couldn't pay the team. They they always got paid. They never knew. We always figured it out.

Speaker B: But what I'd notice is in those moments of really really high stress sometimes, not always, but there were periods where I lost motivation.

Speaker A: And what I meant by that is I literally as a 23 24 year old like CEO of all these hundreds of people, some of them old double my age, I basically hide at home. And what I mean by hide at home is like I didn't have the I lost purpose for this business. Like I I'd wake up for it might last a week or two weeks and I just didn't have the purpose, the quote motivation as they call it to like go out and be a leader. And now as you say I go, oh, it was because I was stressed and it would last for when the cash flow issue would resolve my motivation, my purpose, the reason why we're doing this

Speaker B: zoomed back into focus. And I think that's really important because you know we do have a lot of entrepreneurs watching the show and they'll beat themselves up sometimes because they lose motivation and as a founder and as a CEO it's you feel so guilty that you

Speaker A: the the source of motivation and inspiration leadership for this group of people. You could lose it but now I understand what it was. Now I understand that I was at like an a chronic well uh yeah a bit of a chronic energy deficit in that moment.

Speaker B: Yeah. The other thing actually made me think about as well when you you said about this diffusion of energy. It actually made me think about businesses and OKRs and goals.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It made me think about if you take 10 10 people in a startup and they're all really really focused on the same goal.

Speaker A: They are way more successful. But sometimes you don't have a clear goal and you're all pointing in different directions.

Speaker B: Yes. So there's incoherence.

Speaker A: There's incoherence.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yes. But you need to be a laser. And this is why OKRs are so important because you can point all the energy at the problem. Yes,

Speaker B: this is traction.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Towards a particular goal.

Speaker A: This is what purpose does.

Speaker B: Purpose focuses energy. And I think the reason purpose is so powerful, right? And why you need to have that, right? To to feel it. I I I want to say like you have purpose, it kind of becomes this must find my purpose, you know, must like I'm on a a spiritual journey to find

Speaker A: stresses you out and then you're imp.

Speaker B: Yeah. Exactly. Uh but when you uh somehow find your yourself in a place where you feel like those things, you know, that are in your life are meaningful, right? And that the path you're on is purposeful. I think what this does is it brings all of your energy that might be diffused like a light bulb and boom, it brings it like a laser. And then you can go that distance, right? You can go through that half day without eating. You can go through that month, right, where it's like you have all all of these meetings and it doesn't feel as difficult as it would if you were going kind of all over the place. Focus, I think, brings our energy into a coherent state. And then it feels like coherence, right? It feels like I know what I'm doing this. then it becomes very easy to say no to this and to say yes to just the right thing because there's this coherence not just energetic coherence that you know allows you to do more with less energy uh but also this coherence of mind right and and maybe of spirit if we want to go there

Speaker A: um I'm going to ask the team to play a clip it's a clip of Kevin Olirri talking about this idea of signal and noise and he's referencing his experiences with um Steve Jobs who he used to work with and also Elon Musk

Kevin O'Leary: look how wildly successful he was. But here's why. There's a concept that he understood that very few people focused on back then in the early 90s of signal to noise ratio. What was so brilliant about jobs that I tell every CEO now and I don't care if you're an S&P 500 CEO or you're just starting a business. His vision of signal was the top three to five things you have to get done in the next 18 hours. Not your vision for the business next week or next month or next year. Just the next 18 hours you're awake. You're going to get those three things or those five things done that you have deemed critical for your mission. They must get done today. Anything that stops you from doing that is the noise. So this signal to noise ratio to be successful for Steve Jobs was 8020. 80 signal, 20 noise. And I knew that to be true with him because he would email me at 2:30 in the morning, expect me to get back to him because back then we didn't have texts. It was all email. He was right. He was right. And the only other person that I've seen that has a higher ratio than that is Elon Musk. He has no noise. He does not deal with noise. He is 100% signal 24 seconds, you know, every cycle. I mean, the guy is just 60 seconds of every minute, 60 minutes of every hour, the 18 hours he's awake, it's all signal. And look what he's achieved.

Speaker A: And so I can really sort of summarize this for my audience, signal is the most urgent thing you should be focused on right now. And noise is basically everything.

Kevin O'Leary: No, the goals you set for the the wake the that you were awake. If you're going to be awake 18 hours,

Speaker A: yeah,

Kevin O'Leary: and you've determined that there's three things you have to get done, you're going to get those done. No matter what it takes, you're going to get those done. And you're not going to let anything distract you from the three to five things. If you're a CEO and you achieve that and you can get those done with 80% of your time based on that, you're extraordinarily successful.

Speaker A: In that clip, he's basically saying that the most successful entrepreneurs in the world are remarkably good at focusing on the signal. He said that from his time working with Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs would be 80% signal. I he wakes up in the morning and he knows exactly what we need to work on. And I watch these interviews with Johnny Ives. I'll actually also play the Johnny Ives interview because I send this round to everybody. So, I'm going to play it where Johnny is talks about how remarkably focused Steve Jobs was.

Jony Ive: This sounds really simplistic, but it still shocks me how few people actually practice this. Um, and it's a struggle to practice, but is is this issue of focus? Um, Steve was the most remarkably focused person I've ever met in my life. And um, and the thing with focus is it's not sort of like this thing you aspire to or you you decide on Monday, you know what, I'm going to be focused. It is a every minute a why are we talking about this? This is what we're working on. You can achieve so much when you truly focus. And one of the things that Steve would say, um, because I think he was concerned that I wasn't, um, he would say, um, how many things have you said no to? And I would, honestly, I I would have these sacrificial things because I, I mean, wanted to be very honest about it. And so I say, oh, I said no to this and no to that. and um he but he he knew that I wasn't vaguely interested in doing those things anyway. Um so there was no real sacrifice. What what focus means is saying no to something that you with every bone in your body you think is a phenomenal idea and you wake up thinking about it but you say no to it because you're focusing on something else.

Speaker A: There's something in giving your entire being of focus to something. Maybe it's in the context switching or whatever it is. That means your probability of being successful at that particular thing drastically drastically increases.

Speaker B: Solving hard problems is hard.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But these great great founders they they solve them because they're so they're focusing every available unit of energy on the thing.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yes. I think the reason this is is because of a physical principle about energy which is called resonance. Right. If you walk through life with such clarity of mind, right, like this is what the truth is. This is where we're going, right? And and you live and you

Speaker B: breathe that you become like a resonator. You hold this energy pattern and it comes out not just in in your actions and your emails. It comes out in the way you speak and it comes out in the the things you turn attention to, right? It turns out in your tone of voice, in the care that you, you know, look at people with. It comes out in every facet of you, right? So you become the emblematic leader I guess uh for for that thing that you're 100% into. What this does is that it's picked up by other people, right? Maybe this gets like vibes. You have that vibe. You have like the founders vibe, right? Or like the entrepreneurs vibe. I think this is real and this is the energy that's flowing through your mitochondria somehow becoming coherent and you know aligned and it feels meaningful. It feels purposeful and then you live like that and then other people around you that resonate with it, right? Like people are drawn to a a pure signal. Like if you have that specific signal, it's like a a music like a symphony, right? Like when it sounds when it's on tune, then people that want to come on board like they feel this and then it gets amplified.

Speaker A: It's so funny because we were talking there about Steve Jobs being often side as a prime example of someone who is really intensely focused with with with his energy and what you've just described sounds almost perfectly like what people said about him when they described him as having a reality distortion field. You probably heard this term. Um, the reality distortion field, they called it his RDF, was a term coined by Apple software engineer Bud Trible in 1981 to describe Steve Jobs uncanny, almost hypnotic ability to convince everyone around him to believe practically anything. And people who work closely with Jobs described the RDF, the reality distortion field, as a confounding mix of intense charisma, unyielding willpower, and sheer persistence in a certain direction, which pulled you with him.

Speaker B: Mhm. That's an energetic quality. And in physics, if you have something that's has a really strong energy, then it can entrain other things. If the the source resonator is strong enough, people will come in resonance. And then it looks spooky. It looks like wa this thing you know synchronicity or this you know this thing happened and somehow you know he was able to mobilize this this donor and you know fundraising is like easier than it should be and so like all of these things snowball because you hold that you know that that vibe you hold that energy and amplifies.

Speaker A: I mean exactly that. So I was just reading this quote from someone that used to work with Steve Jobs um and he said that it would cause two things. It would be like he was casting spells on you but he was also bending time in physics. They said Apple engineer Andy Herzfield recalled that if you told Steve Jobs a task would take 6 months, he would look you in the eye and say, "You can do it in 2 weeks." Because of the sheer force of his conviction, engineers would often actually end up doing it in 2 weeks, completely rewriting their own understanding of what was possible. And even Bill Gates famously remarked on Job's charisma saying, "I was like a minor wizard because he was casting spells and I would see people mesmerized so much so that I was so jealous." Gates noted that even when Jobs was lying or wrong, he had everybody completely hooked.

Speaker B: what's clear to make some like something like this happen is you need to um feel that there's something compelling like you need to feel something is important and again that's not a rational thing like you need to feel it in yourself um and then you need to kind of bring that energy into focus and bring attention to it right and then then that's where ideas start to come you build a structure around it to to sustain that flow

Speaker A: you said um at the start that we are the energy flowing through ourselves and if I think about The fact that every barrier or obstacle we have in the world is actually other people. Like that is true. Like for me to become the president, prime minister, best salesp person in the world, best philanthropist, what I need to do if I am energy is convince other energy to change its shape.

Speaker B: I think that's what amazing people do. Uh they're able to, you know, see something, hold that vision so strongly and then mobilize others, right? And then new things become uh possible. I think that's what great leaders do. And I I now approach, you know, other human beings and, you know, my my son, like my six-year-old son, Noah, I see him as, yes, a little boy and yes, a lot of energy and yes, you know, some some challenges that come with this, but he's this beautiful little energy pattern, right? He's this energy flowing through this little child's body, but my role as a parent is to provide just around the right amount of resistance, right? The right amount of constraints. If I don't provide any constraint, I say do whatever you want, have whatever you want uh you know any time then like that's not good for development. Kids need to feel you know some boundaries and so those are like resistance right little constraints but if every minute like me putting constraint no you can't do this no you can't do that then it damages the system it traumatizes the system

Speaker A: going to grow in

Speaker B: exactly so the the art really of parenting and I think the art of of leadership is providing the right structure right so that the energy has some constraints like there's a challenge there needs to be a challenge for the team to meet right challenge is like a barrier It's like a little resistor. Of course, there's challenges. You're like, it's difficult to get there. And if it's not difficult, then everywhere everyone's bored. If it's like, yeah, we're going to do the same thing as we did last year. And then next year, we do the same thing. That's not the same kind of energy as we need to double this year. And then we need to double the, you know, the year after. This kind of goal or challenge is a form of constraint, something you have to work through. I think that's why the human mind is naturally drawn to challenges like what's the next challenge? Why go down deep in the ocean to discover new creatures? Why go in the Amazon trying to discover new species of little bugs? Why go into space? Like this is all curiosity driven. It's like the mind wanting to have something to hit against. Cuz if there's nothing to hit against, if there's no resistance, then it's there's no purpose.

Speaker A: I was thinking about worthwhile goals as actually being magnets for energy. You think about going to the moon. The moon pulled energy towards it. So, we found ourselves to the moon. And actually if you bring that down into your own life as like a leader of a company you go okay if I set a worthwhile goal I'm going to pull people energy towards it and if I have an unworthwhile goal energy won't be attracted so maybe a worthwhile goal is actually philosophically a magnet for energy

Speaker B: yeah I think so and people are energetic processes so my my six-year-old son is this beautiful movement of energy my goal is to nurture it right and not just with food and physically but to nurture his curiosity uh and is transformation

Speaker A: linked to this. I read that studies on brains of dead people have found that those with a greater sense of purpose have more efficient mitochondria.

Speaker B: This is a beautiful study in it was run in Chicago. Every year people would come to the hospital and then fill out questionnaires and meet with a a therapist and neuroscychologist and they would ask them questions and test their memory and their cognition. And then every year they would report how much purpose they felt like they had, how much sense of connection with other human beings or with something greater than themselves, how optimistic they were about the future, right? And some people are like more optimistic, happy and and and purposeful than than others, but there's always kind of fluctuations, right? Like we go through fluctuations. As we go through life, no matter how lucky you are, life always ends up being challenging in in some ways. So we asked how people felt, how much purpose people experience before they died. Is that related to the mitochondria in their

Speaker A: brain? And the only way you can ask this question is to look at the brain after the person died, right? So then you have how the person felt right before they... how much purpose they experienced and then you look at the mitochondria after they die.

Speaker B: >> where >> in in the the dorsal prefrontal cortex. So that little part of the brain that's involved in, you know, uh, active reasoning and executive function and the mitochondria in the people who felt more purpose had a greater energy transformation capacity.

Speaker A: >> What does that mean in simple terms?

Speaker B: >> The resistance was lower. This could mean uh that if you feel more life purpose, the mitochondria in your brain can flow energy more easily.

Speaker A: >> Or it could mean the inverse of that. Well, it could mean that having mitochondria in your brain that can flow energy more easily just changes how you see life.

Speaker B: >> Makes you feel more purposeful.

Speaker A: >> Yeah, exactly. >> Or it could mean that purpose itself is creating more efficient mitochondria.

Speaker B: >> Exactly. People have done studies in animals and we've done some of those studies where you can basically change the state of mind of a mouse by like stressing it out chronically and then you make it feel defeated and like a really stressful life and you ask, does this change the mitochondria in the brain? Right? Can the experience of stress change a mitochondria in the brain? 100%. That happens. Now you can say okay now let's change a mitochondria in the brain. You can like open up the brain inject a little something that either boost the mitochondria or inhibit and activate the mitochondria increase or decrease resistance. And then you ask does this change how the animal appears to feel? How the animals behave in terms of anxiety or social interactions with other animals, sociality or dominance. 100%. So the the best science shows it goes both ways. So how you feel can change the mitochondria. The mitochondria can change probably how you feel.

Speaker A: >> And so and again we're theorizing here. If I don't have purpose in my life, it's going to change the mitochondria. And then if it if my mitochondria becomes more inefficient

Speaker B: >> then what what will I notice as the next symptom?

Speaker A: >> Yeah, probably fatigue is the first thing that kind of starts to pop up. You feel drained. You don't feel you have you know enough energy. burn out

Speaker B: >> probably feels like burnout and you start to lose enthusiasm for you know for the future you become more pessimistic. So there's kind of a constellation of things we call depression or you know burnout or we put labels on these things but really every person starts to experience life as less enjoyable, less purposeful, less meaningful um regardless of the the diagnostic title we put on it. which is interesting because I've I've interviewed a few people that are experts on the subject of depression and also addiction frankly. And one of the things that I remember Johan Hari saying to me who wrote a book called Lost Connections is that in some cultures the cure that they apply for depressive symptoms is giving someone purpose in their life.

Speaker A: >> Mhm. Yeah. That's so powerful. My hunch is that most of what we call depression is a loss of coherence. And when we're isolated, we did a study recently to look at the energetics of mental stress. When you feel like you're being pulled aside and judged and right, what does that do energetically to the body? And and there's this protein marker in the blood that reflects energy friction, energy resistance, right? If the mitochondria can't flow energy smoothly, this protein gets made and then it's in kind of a blood biomarker. It's elevated in cancer where we think there's increased energy resistance. It's elevated in Alzheimer's where we think there's increased energy resistance in the brain. It's elevated in diabetes where there's increased energy resistance with the insulin resistance. It's elevated in all sorts of pathologies, hypertension and the heart disease. And it's a marker that the organism energetically is not doing well. there's it's not efficient, right? It's almost a marker of inefficiency. We did this study where you bring people in, we put an intravenous line so we can measure the blood markers uh and then we tell them, "Okay, just relax. Everything's fine. You're doing great." And then they they sit down, they relax for 30 minutes, cortisol goes down, heart rate goes down, blood pressure goes down, and then our lovely study coordinator, Katherine, walked into the room and then looked at the participants said, "Now you're going to be judged. You're going to have to deliver a speech. And here's a situation. You were in a shopping mall. You were, you know, you grabbed this this scarf. You put it on just to try. But then the security guard caught you. And then they're accusing you of shoplifting. So now you're in court. You need to defend yourselves in front of the the the judge and you need to tell the judge what should happen to the security guard. Should you lose his job or and then we tell them you have two minutes to prepare your three minute defense in front of the judge. Most people start to feel the the anxiety and then we we monitor heart rate at the same time and blood pressure and and then we draw blood and so you can see everyone's physiology wasting energy, right? The energetic cost of stress. You see this on the monitor on the other side, you know, in the control room. And then we put a camera in front of them that mocks, you know, video records him. And then we have a white coatwearing old white man who stands six feet in front of them, looks at them straight in the eyes, they start talking. And then they have to look into into the camera and they do their their defense and they know someone's looking at them. And what we saw was that this energy stress marker goes up just with mental stress. You're not doing exercise. You're not doing anything strenuous. You're just going through this phase of what's going to happen to me, to my ego, to to my sense of self.

Speaker B: >> So, what's the downstream consequence of this thing, this stress chemical being in your body?

Speaker A: >> Yeah. So, that protein is called GDF-15.

Speaker B: >> Yeah.

Speaker A: >> Growth differentiation factor 15, the name doesn't matter, but that energetic stress marker, you're asking the right question. What does it do and what does it matter? And it turns out this protein goes to the brain.

Speaker B: >> Yeah. And that protein can be made by any organ in the body except one, the brain. What is it doing? It's very useful to know where where's a receptor, right? Because you need to have for signaling and biology to happen, you need a signal and you need a receptor, a sensor, right? Uh where's a receptor for this protein, do you think? Only in one organ in the body.

Speaker A: >> Is it in here?

Speaker B: >> It's right in here. Yeah. So in the brain stem the the brain stem is where kind of the the basic survival systems of the body are and there's a region in the brain stem called the area postrema doesn't matter it's it's known as the vomiting and nausea center for the brain

Speaker A: >> wait so if something happens I'm extremely stressed the world is judging me this protein goes into my blood and then it goes up into my brain stem and it docks in there

Speaker B: >> correct

Speaker A: >> and then what happens

Speaker B: >> and then turns out the brain interpret this as there's something running out of energy

Speaker A: >> there's something running out of energy Okay,

Speaker B: >> something in the body is not right. There's something running out of energy and then the brain makes two decisions very similar to when you're sick. That protein GDF-15 is called a cytoine. It's the same thing that immune cells produce when they're activated during an infection.

Speaker A: >> Okay. So, your body thinks you're sick.

Speaker B: >> Yes.

Speaker A: >> And then what?

Speaker B: >> And then does two things. Save energy. Conserve energy.

Speaker A: >> So, you lose motivation.

Speaker B: >> Yes. Lose motivation.

Speaker A: >> Feel depressed.

Speaker B: >> Feel depressed.

Speaker A: >> Can't go to the gym.

Speaker B: >> Yes. doesn't feel worth it. We know this specifically from animal studies. If you inject animals with GFD, they hunch in a ball and they don't do anything, right? They go into this sickness behavior. That's number one. Number two, the brain says something's running out of energy first. Let's conserve energy, number one. But two, let's mobilize energy, right? Let's put glucose into the blood. Let's put fat into the blood because

Guest: there might be cells out there that are, you know, running out of energy and we need to rescue them.

Interviewer: Are you going to get belly fat? visceral fat. Yeah.

Guest: Yeah. You're going to get belly fat from this.

Guest: Yeah. When stress hormones are up, right, and you're increasing blood glucose, increasing uh blood lipids, if the rest of the body doesn't need it, which is what kind of happens during a stress response like this, that fat gets lodged where it shouldn't called ectopic fat. And that's what belly fat is.

Interviewer: Okay. So, let's go a bit further. This is happening. Um, if this is chronic, I guess it's going to lead at some point to disease.

Guest: Mhm. What the best studies show on this is when you have high level of this energetic stress marker this protein you're more likely if you follow people then studies were done where you take the blood you measure this protein some people have very high levels some people have very low levels uh and then you wait 14 years this is actually a study from the UK called the UK bioank so if you measure the protein and stress cytoine and you ask what happens to people with high GDF-15 versus people with low GDF-15 turns out people with high GDF-15 are more likely to develop mental illness, h bipolar disease, depression, schizophrenia. People with high GDF-15 are more likely to develop cardiovascular disease, hypertension. People with high GF are more likely to be dead. At this point, we don't know if it makes a difference, if it's from mental stress, if it's from physical stress, if it's from an organ struggling, right, that's sick and trying to to heal itself. High energy stress, high energy resistance in the body based on this marker is called a prognostic indicator. It's an indicator that something bad might happen. And uh and and people with high GDF-15 also, they don't like to take the stairs. They don't like to walk for pleasure. They don't like to go out to the gym. They don't like to go out with friends.

Interviewer: They don't like to exercise. What would

Guest: correct? Yeah. Because it it if you're getting the signal like when you're sick, right? If GF15 is made somewhere in your body, it goes to your brain, you're getting the signal, you're running out of energy.

Interviewer: So, I guess the the question everyone's asking as they're listening to this now is, how do I prevent GDF-15 or whatever it's called, this stress cytoine thing that goes and docks in my brain? How do I prevent it from floating around in my blood so often?

Guest: Good question. Taking the time to feel.

Interviewer: Meditation.

Guest: Meditation. My bloody fiance is right. uh what we know is there's some initial evidence that GDF-15 increases throughout the day, right? Uh so the purpose of sleep then might be to reduce energy resistance, right? Like what we were talking about earlier, it's not about having like finding this one optimal level of resistance and sticking there. It's about this movement of increasing resistance and then decreasing resistance and increasing resistance, decreasing resistance. It's kind of this movement of life. And I guess all the other things we talked about earlier as it relates to lifestyle factors like keeping away from these sort of extreme stresses, eating way too much, starving oneself, oxidative stress. None of the solutions here are rocket science, are they?

Interviewer: Mhm.

Guest: Do you know what I mean?

Interviewer: Mhm.

Guest: If we just look back in time of how we used to live, you know, a little bit more human out in nature with people, with friends, offscreens.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Guest: Eating stuff that grows in the ground or has legs and runs.

Interviewer: A lot of that is pretty like a pretty simple playbook for like how to live a good life.

Guest: Yeah. and to not be so bloody stressed out all the time.

Interviewer: I think part of it is yes, living a life that is more aligned with the way we evolved, right? Which is connecting to other human beings and not eating too much. And um I think that's one piece and but that's like everyone knows this.

Guest: Yeah.

Interviewer: Why aren't we doing it? And I think part of the reason is because we we have this kind of misconception of ourselves as a molecular machine, right? And it's like need to maintain your car. If I'm like a a machine, if I'm like a car, then I'm just going to put more fuel in and I should feel better. And then you do and then you you eat more and then you don't feel better. And that's I think extremely disempowering. People want to be empowered. And people want to have knowledge, but they want to know what to do so they can be their best version of themselves, so they can flourish.

Interviewer: So, you know what's interesting? Before you arrived, I I did something I've never done before. I went through all of the interviews you've done and I looked at all the comments because I wanted to understand the people that have listened to you frequently. What what what is it they feel like they would love to ask you or what they haven't gotten from other interviews. One of the most popular comments which was seen roughly 10% of time was the audience asking about supplements and the question that they had is that they know you personally lean on lifestyle interventions but the biohacking community is very interested in compounds like methylene blue urethylene A and NAD plus boosters. In your opinion what does the sort of clinical data or clinical consensus actually say about these supplements? Are they a shortcut? Are they a band-aid? Are they useful? I think there are shortcuts to to some states. I lean away from them because I think once we start to think that there's a magic pill to solve a complex issue to solve the way that you're feeling becomes like the there's a magic pill for this and then you don't need to bring awareness to what you are.

Interviewer: But can I do both?

Guest: I think so. In in some cases, I don't really know how metalene blue does everything it's supposed to be doing. What uh biologically metine blue seems to be able to give electrons to the mitochondria. So maybe there's something there that metaline blue can kind of relieve energy resistance in the mitochondria. NAD+ is probably the best supported uh intervention to reduce inflammation. Also, it's an electron carrier. So it take electrons from food and then gives them to the electron transport chain. So the mitochondria can flow those electrons with low resistance. So if you're depleted of NAD, there's that's going to cause increased resistance for electrons to flow through the this metabolic circuit.

Interviewer: So NAD+ seems to calm things down a little bit in terms of energy processing. And if

Guest: Yeah. And most people are not deficient of NAD+. So giving more to the system might not help. But for for reasons I don't really understand, it seems like it helps some people and it makes people uh feel more energetic. So

Interviewer: is that in pill form? Like how do people take NAD+? Cuz I know there was some like drips one time that some guy gave me.

Guest: Yes, I think there there's uh oral supplements that are uh precursors to NAD. If you eat NAD directly, it doesn't the bioavailability it's called, it doesn't get into you know your cells very well. you can inject infuse IV intravenously uh NAD+ directly and then that that gets to your cells better. Um that's not a an approved or kind of recommended medical intervention but I've seen people with mitochondrial disease you know saying that it helps them and and normal healthy people as well who feel more energy.

Interviewer: What about this uralithn A?

Guest: Uralithin A is a new compound that seems to stimulate the degradation of bad mitochondria. So we talked about autophagy, mphagy earlier. So a cell that has a thousand mitochondria. There are always some that are getting a little old and then eventually they're degraded. Especially if you fast, right? If the cell is a little starved is going to degrade the ones that are least functional and there's kind of a whole selection process that happens inside the cell to know which mitochondria are bad, which ones are good. But the bad mitochondria get targeted and then they get degraded if you're fasting or if you're pushing the system like during exercise. What uralin a seems to do is to kind of accelerate this process. Right? So it accelerates the degradation of the bad mitochondria the mphigy so that the cell has to make more of the good ones. I'm looking at

Speaker A: some of the studies here and it says the clinical evidence for uralythin A has rapidly expanded over the last few years transitioning from a compelling animal data study to highly rigorous placeboc controlled human clinical trials and overwhelmingly the human research confirms that uriththan a targets mitochondrial dysfunction and systemic inflammation with one study in 2022 in the JAMAMA network open study journal um where they took adults aged 65 to 90 and gave one of them placebo one of the groups placebo and the other uriththan A for 4 months. And at the end of that they found that the group that were given uraliththn A showed statistically significant improvements in muscle endurance and a reduction in biomarkers of mitochondrial inefficiency.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I should be on uriththn A then

Speaker B: everyone should.

Speaker A: Do you take any of that? I

Speaker B: don't.

Speaker A: You don't take any supplements?

Speaker B: I don't. I'm skeptical of this. You know, there's always kind of a new supplement that does amazing things, especially if it cures mitochondrial dysfunction. Mitochondria have dozens of functions.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so the term mitochondrial dysfunction is I think a little misleading. Like there was a lot of hype about NAD. There was a lot of hype about co-enzyme Q, CoQ10. Uh there was a lot of hype about all sorts of things. Anti-inflammatory, you know, berries and antioxidants was a big thing like 10, 20 years ago. Turns out not to be so useful. Uh actually impairs normal adaptation and signaling if you eat too many antioxidants. Um so urin feels like the next fad. Uh maybe it's real. Uh, I think the science is fairly compelling, but I'm I I trust the wisdom of my body and my mitochondria more than I trust the the pharma company that's trying to to make and sell this.

Speaker B: And what does that mean in in practical terms, trusting the wisdom of your body? Like, what does that mean for you?

Speaker A: It means um recognizing that I am the the energy that's flowing through this thing and this thing is nature. Like we are a piece of nature. Something that's true across the animal kingdom and the the living kingdom is things heal. And we don't think about this in biio medicine. We think about diseases. We study, you know, when things go wrong and we try to understand the molecular, you know, features of diseases. There's not really a science of the healing process. But the basis of health, it's clear you need to heal continuously. Heal, you know, repair the DNA that's damaged. Repair the mitochondria that are getting old. You get rid of them. You make new ones. like preserving the wholeness of the system. To heal means to become whole again.

Speaker B: Is that contingent on me being in a natural environment for my nature to heal? Because if you think about me and you sat in here now, we're sat in a like a dark bunker basically with no sunlight. And listen, most of us live in such a dark bunker with very little sunlight. So we then have to take vitamin D.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So because we live outside of our true nature, I'm wondering if actually we do need to take some supplements cuz

Speaker A: we're not going to heal.

Speaker B: we are going to heal

Speaker A: even but if I sit in here all day I'm not going to get vitamin D and then that's going to cause problems.

Speaker B: Yes. So we're not in the optimal environment when you're in that kind of environment. So I think there and there's good research showing if you put a plant in a hospital room patients recover faster. There's been studies looking at like windows with natural light and you see nature if you're in a hospital for example people recover better. And there's good data on like nature exposure. Is it like the more better oxygen? You know a little tiny bit more oxygen if you're in a forest. Is it like the phyitochemicals, the things that are produced by the by the plants? Like we don't really know what it is. Is it just seeing green, seeing something that hears that sounds and looks like what you evolved to be around? So, we don't really know, but we know exposure to nature kind of helps calm the body and somehow improve recovery.

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Speaker A: One type of help people also wanted to know about from you which was even more discussed was about red light therapy. Red light therapy as a support for your mitochondria.

Speaker B: Interestingly, the red light therapy is a pretty big thing now. There are hundreds of different devices, helmets, a hairbrush band.

Speaker A: I think I've got one here actually. I think this is this this is a red light therapy hairbrush.

Speaker B: Therapy hairbrush.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh someone was just telling me their dad is part of a study now. He puts a helmet with red light, you know, every day because he has like predmentia. By doing this, the idea is uh light is energy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Energy is not a thing, but it's the potential for change. It's the capacity to change something. Red light like this, especially the red, the infrared that you don't see with your eye, can penetrate tissue. It can go through your hair, through your skull, and then into your brain. And then there it seems to do something and change metabolism. So how is it doing this? The best hypothesis we have is that for light to do something in biology, there needs to be something in biology that resonates with it, right? That can uh offer the right amount of resistance, right? To the photons, the red light photons hit and then there's transformation of energy. That receptor, the antenna, the cellular antenna for red light seems to be mitochondria. So there's something in the mitochondria where the electrons flow and then boom they meet with oxygen to become metabolic water. Uh that is called cytochrome C oxidase.

Speaker B: I'm going to try and say this in layman's terms. It if I take red light and I put it on my skin, it doesn't even need to touch my skin. I can put it just close to my skin.

Speaker A: The red light is going into the mitochondria of my cell and it's helping the mitochondria to become more efficient.

Speaker B: That's the idea.

Speaker A: So why should you wake up every day and do bloody red light? If you're deficient in that in that way, that might be good. Uh that might also offset, you know, the natural order that your body has has created.

Speaker B: Oh, what do you mean by that? you think it might be.

Speaker A: I think that in in general that's why I kind of veer away from supplements because the organism is this beautiful dynamic equilibrium of like everything you know energetically dancing with each other where you have the mitochondria that transform energy and then you know genes are expressed and then this other cell is doing this this cell is doing this and there's this beautiful balance and uh when the system is out of balance now there's signals like inflammation right signals of this imbalance uh at an energetic level and then that turns into molecular level and then the system tries to come back into balance, right? And

Speaker B: wow, I never realized this that too much red light can be bad for you.

Speaker A: I don't know if there's studies that show too much red light is bad for you, but there's like phototoxicity is a thing and there you can buy a whole bed of like really intense light. And I think if you stay too long in those, that's probably not good. There's a a very compelling study

Speaker A: ...that was published last year uh on blood glucose regulation and I know you've talked about blood glucose on other episodes.

Speaker B: How much glucose in the blood is really important because it causes this like energy resistance energy friction in all of your cells especially the brain perhaps. So when you eat a bunch of sugar or you eat a meal with carbohydrates blood glucose typically spikes. If you get stressed out just psychological stress will increase blood glucose. So those glucose spikes can increase energy resistance and then start to cause damage, accelerate aging and so on. So what the body does in the normal healthy organism is able to regulate blood glucose. So if you eat a big meal, there's amount enough insulin that's released and then the glucose can come into cells and to the muscles and and to the fat and and then you preserve, you know, what's called normal glycemia, normal blood glucose. It turns out if you shine a red light on the back of people as they ingest a big bunch of glucose, the spike in glucose is not as high. And what they did in that study that was interesting is they measured mitochondrial metabolism through the mouth. You can measure oxygen coming in and CO2 coming out which is coming from mitochondria. So you can measure the the energy metabolism which is really the mitochondrial metabolism as people are doing this. And what they found is that people who had red light on their back, their metabolism was actually uh a little higher. So the electrons, the flow of energy was increased with the red light and and they think that might be why the glucose didn't spike as much because the electrons that came into the blood were able to flow through the mitochondria. Um, so this points to some regulation of energy regulation in inside the mitochondria that I don't fully understand, but I think there there's something promising here and it certainly supports, you know, the idea that energy modalities outside of ourselves, you know, light or electromagnetic fields under human beings that are, you know, you energy energetic process is affecting my metabolism all the time. We respond to each other energetically, metabolically. Uh, I think it it supports that idea that you're in an energetic process and you're influenced by other forms of energy even if you don't see it.

Speaker A: I'm really um stunned by this idea that there is such thing as getting too much red light and that that can have harm for your cells because there is I'll be honest you know there's been a couple of times where I just put that thing on and maybe like read a book for a long time like an hour or two.

Speaker B: Did you ever feel adverse effects from this?

Speaker A: I never felt adverse effects. However, looking at some of the studies, it seems to suggest that red light therapy follows a bell curve model.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: They found in this one particular study I was reading about in 2009, that low to moderate doses of light perfectly stimulate the mitochondria to produce ATP and a healthy small burst of ROS, reactive oxygen species to trigger cellular repair. However, this particular study also showed that when the dose is pushed too high, the light creates massive amounts of reactive oxidative species and this excess oxidative stress overwhelms the cell's antidioxidant defenses completely shutting down mitochondrial respiration and in inducing cellular aptosis, cell death instead of healing.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah. That this bell-shaped relationship is something we see in many domains of biology and physiology. Same as like workout exercising like most people know if you do a workout that's like half an hour, an hour or two hours. If you're an athlete and you're like really well conditioned, it's fine. And then you recover for you know 23 hours after your 1 hour workout and that's great. It actually makes you more efficient. gives you the idea the impression you have more energy which is really energy flowing more efficiently but if you work out for eight hours

Speaker A: that's not good right

Speaker B: so the too much you you crash not enough you're not at your optimal so there's where is the optimal state and biology and the whole mind body unit has kind of worked out through evolution and through your life and development to find this sweet spot

Speaker A: if you know how to listen to it

Speaker B: and that's that's easier said than done

Speaker A: yes if you can live in alignment and There's a lot of noise out there.

Speaker B: There is, you know, for the same reason you closed your eyes earlier when I asked you to kind of feel inside. This is a good analogy for I think what it means to kind of listen to her energy. And maybe we could do a little exercise if you're interested.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, we'll do a little exercise. Uh you can close your eyes if you want.

Speaker A: Everyone at home also close your eyes unless you are driving.

Speaker B: Yeah. And we'll use the breath. So, you can start by just feeling your body. You can feel kind of gravity pulling your body down into the chair. And then we'll take a little breath in and then breath out and then all the way down. And then hold your breath with empty lungs and then hold there for as long as you can. And just pay attention to the sensations that are emerging in your body, whether it's on your belly and your chest and your neck and your head. And the longer you wait, the more intense those sensations are. You can hold for as long as you want and when you can't and just take a take a breath. Deep breath. What did that feel like?

Speaker A: It felt I felt lots of vibrations.

Speaker B: It's kind of like waves.

Speaker A: I felt like kind of like waves going across my body, but I It was almost like I could feel the energy moving through my body.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: It's kind of how it felt. I suddenly was very apparent clear of my heartbeat. I could feel everything.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: In a way that I can't typically feel everything.

Speaker B: Yeah. Any kind of negative feeling or any sensation that was uncomfortable?

Speaker A: I mean it near the end when I couldn't when I hadn't breathed in a while it was a bit uncomfortable.

Speaker B: Yeah. What did that feel like?

Speaker A: Like like I was starving for oxygen. Like I was starving for air.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know running out of air and like drowning is one of the most horrible like aversive experience that I think we evolved to dislike. Right. So what what was happening there in our bodies as we were doing this is oxygen is being consumed by mitochondria continuously. Right. every millisecond mitochondria consume oxygen and now you're not bringing oxygen through your breath and then they produce CO2 carbon dioxide right so mitochondria are burning the oxygen little bit by a little bit and then they're producing carbon dioxide CO2 and we evolved to feel those signals very very sensitively

Speaker A: so that's the pressure that I felt

Speaker B: well I think that yes so the subjective experience right what you described there is an experience of energy starting to stall Because if there's no oxygen in your mitochondria, the electrons like h where do I go? And then there's like extreme level of resistance. Like the most extreme case of energy resistance I think that most people will be familiar with is like a heart attack.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: My dad had a heart attack a few years ago and he woke up during the night with this terrible contraction like a pressure in in the chest and he said it was like 400 lb like pressure on his chest. Terrible pain. Worst pain he's ever had. What what's happening like where where what is that pain? The source of that pain really is blood flow can no longer bring oxygen to mitochondria in the heart.

Speaker A: Oh, so the mitochondria are like panicking.

Speaker B: Yeah. So panicking is kind of a we're imposing now experience onto a biological process. But you have the electrons that are flowing through mitochondria all the time. They're flowing on oxy onto oxygen, right? From food to oxygen and they're just nice freely floating. That feels great or it feels like you just normal life. And then all of a sudden there's no more oxygen. So the electron I have nowhere to go. That feels terrible. The electrons can't flow. So they start to backflow. That is what causes oxidative stress. That's why the heart gets damaged during a heart attack, right? Because the electrons can't flow to oxygen because of this little clot. Uh and for some reason that we don't really...

Speaker A: understand this feels extremely aversive. So what you experience there by holding your breath and anyone who's listening to this can try on their own. hold your breath for as long as possible. It feels horrible. And now imagine living your life with just like 5% 10% of this horrible feeling like you wake up in the morning and you have this like trace of like running out of energy, right? Running out of oxygen. Uh I think that's what some mental illnesses feel like. And there's very interesting data showing that if you inject people with a signal of energetic stress, lactate, you can trigger a panic attack. You're not messing with the brain there. You're not like, you know, kind of doing something to the to neurochemistry. What you're doing is you're injecting the human body with a signal that the mitochondria can't keep up with energy flow. You're tricking the body into thinking that energy resistance has just been jacked up to very high levels. This feels like anxiety. And people with traumatic memories like post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, the simple injection of an energetic stress signal of lactate in the blood can reawaken traumatic memories. So there's this emerging notion in psychiatry called met in metabolic psychiatry uh where people understand mental illnesses as energetic disorders of the brain. And what I think is is happening in those kind of chronic state of of ill-being, right? where people don't feel themselves, they don't feel well, they you know the hypervigilance, anxiety. Uh it's quite likely at this point I think that part of that is driven by energy not flowing properly and then the body just lives at high energy resistance all the time. And there's data directly measuring energy resistance in the brain from a group MLAN in in Harvard uh and then lactate tends to be elevated in people with mental illness and this marker GDF-15 also is elevated in mental illness. And so the cure again or the the thing to ease that is all the lifestyle factors that we talked about purpose and you know check we've covered that ground.

Speaker A: Yeah life changes you know changing your life circumstances that's really hard to do. Uh exercising seems to help a lot of people but a lot of people don't feel they have the capacity to exercise. Uh and ketones seem to be a lifesaving for some people. going on a ketogenic diet and I've met now dozens of individuals whose lives were crushed by you know schizoffective disorder, bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder and they were treatment resistant right meaning like the phicotherapy the drugs that they were given were not helping in some cases were making things worse uh with like difficult side effects and then they changed her diet cutting all sugars and they went on a ketogenic medical ketogenic therapy Uh and then they started to monitor ketones and many people reported you know that this was life-changing like first the first thing they many people notice is they have more energy. The ketogenic diet does not work for everyone.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: We don't know why. And the same way that we're all different, we all respond differently to even medications, right, that are supposed to work the same for everyone. We have a science of averages. Like the science that we use to get knowledge to inform our lives is almost entirely a science of averages. Meaning like all of the the studies we do like the the highest gold standard studies we consider to be RCTs randomized control trials. These RCTs if you run an RCT what you do is you take let's say a thousand people then you randomize half 500 into this group normal diet and then 500 into ketogenic diet. And then you say great now let's look at their depressive symptoms right or or their anxiety symptoms and then you have them on the diet for two months and then after you assess and then you compare the groups right you lump 500 human beings together and you say what's the average depression or anxiety symptoms in this in these 500 people then you average these people together and then you group them and then you compare means

Speaker B: and I guess the other important point here is gender which is so many of these studies were skewed towards men uh in many cases and that doesn't apply to women a lot of the time. And this is part of the reason we've had so many conversations on this show about women's health is because we're just now discovering that, you know, once upon a time scientists would treat women like little men and assume that everything just applied

Speaker A: but actually we're entirely different. And so

Speaker B: this averages thing, you also need to think about the nuances of like who, gender, where they're from, their biology, their DNA. You just said that you you get the skinny fat thing or the visceral fat, whatever. I don't get that.

Speaker A: Mhm. But if we were doing an average of like three people,

Speaker B: maybe we'd come to a conclusion based on me and me and the other person who was like me, but that wouldn't apply to you.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's really problematic. Like all of the the health recommendations that we have and the the way drugs get approved uh and the way we determine whether a drug is useful or not for disease X or Y is by comparing groups. And whenever you you peel the surface of a clinical study of an RCT, you find some people like are amazing responders and they're cured. They don't have symptoms. And then some people don't respond. These are called non-responders. And then some people get worse.

Speaker B: The most commented thing across the videos you featured on um and the most passionate thing uh the most urgent thing according to the the people that were watching your work that they wanted to ask you was about longcoid mefs. I'm not sure what that is. and fibromyalgia. Um, for patients with me, CFS, and you'll have to explain to me what that is, or long COVID, the standard advice given is to exercise for metitochondrial health. Um, but for them, it often triggers severe crashes. What is happening at the cellular level when the energy budget is broken and how can these individuals safely rehabilitate their mitochondria without causing further damage?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really tough problem. And

Speaker B: this was the most repeatedly the most liked, the most commented thing on your videos because these people are suffering and they're just not being given answers, I guess.

Speaker A: Yeah. In the US there's an estimated like 3 to 5 million people who have either myalgic and sephil ancilitis uh chronic fatigue syndrome, ME/CFS or you know longcoid version of this. Uh in the UK it's somewhere between like two and three million I think. And then worldwide there's 20 24 million people have these syndromes, right?

Speaker B: What are the symptoms for someone that hasn't experienced it? What are the symptoms that they're experiencing?

Speaker A: Chronic fatigue,

Speaker B: just always being sort of tired and low energy. Feeling low energy.

Speaker A: Yeah. Feeling low energy um is is an experience, right? So it's you go to your doctor say I feel so tired and then you look in the blood works, everything's fine. But so there's a disconnect between what we know how to measure biochemically and then what the person is experiencing. We don't have a good understanding of the connection between the biology and the biochemistry in the blood and even process in the brain and how people feel. So there's a disconnect here and uh ME/CFS you know chronic fatigue uh long COVID these people have been a little bit ostracized uh from the medical you know community because doctors are are really stuck uh they have the these patients which are really difficult you know patients to to deal with. first they don't know what's wrong with them and second they don't have tools to help them get better uh and and then the classical thing is well exercise but then many of these people when they exercise they actually get worse and and there's some studies that show increased inflammation so those signals of energy resistance increase energy friction in the body uh go up after exercise in a normal person in these people with chronic fatigue it seems like they can skyrocket and then that leads to this postexertional malaise Right? We talked earlier about how the marker of energetic stress GDF-15 can go to the brain and make you feel sick, right? Or make you feel, you know, nauseous or, you know, tired. Other

Dr. Martin: Cytokines from the immune system when you're sick, uh, when you're fighting an infection do the same thing. The best study on mitochondria and chronic fatigue syndrome was published last year or the year before and it showed that there is a deficiency in energy transformation in the mitochondria, the muscle. They took muscle biopsies, little piece of muscle from the quad, from the thigh. And then they looked at how well can the mitochondria in the muscle of people with chronic fatigue syndrome flow energy. And what they found is the capacity is much lower. If the mitochondria can't flux energy properly, you should feel like you don't have the capacity to push right to exercise. So why is that? Why do those people have lower mitochondrial energy transformation capacity? We don't know. There are so many stories and I've been curious and interested about this uh and I remember uh this uh family friend who came for dinner uh one night and she uh she was asking me what do you work on and what do you do and so I tell her we work on mitochondria and psychobiology mitochondrial psychobiology how the mind and the body relate you know energetically and she said well I have an interesting story for you I said okay what's the story I used to have chronic fatigue syndrome so I I perked up I was like what happened. She was visibly an energetic person. She didn't it didn't look like she had, you know, an issue with energy. So, she said, uh, she was in her 20s and she had like she was debilitated. She couldn't work and, you know, she lived in this place and, you know, her life would kind of, you know, completely upside down because she didn't have energy to do anything, which is, I think, a common story. and she was in bed like multiple hours, you know, every day and struggling to go get groceries and everything was a drag about life. And then one summer, uh, this guy from Hawaii, which was a friend of a friend, came over, uh, for the for the summer just to for a little trip and they had an affair. She had a boyfriend and this was a long time that she that she had had a, you know, a human connection like this.

Host: So you're saying

Dr. Martin: I I'm not saying what what end what ended up happening is she said my chronic fatigue kind of lifted and I didn't have to do anything and then after that summer she never had chronic fatigue again uh and she kind of reintegrated the normal life. I don't know what the lesson is here. I don't know if there's a generalizable principle, but there's a lot of those stories where people end up in a really dark place in their life and either they're diagnosed with a mental illness or with chronic fatigue syndrome or with kind of a somato, you know, psychosomatic, you know, label or whatever that is, there's always kind of precipitating conditions. Uh sometimes it's in response to medical interventions like immunization. Sometimes it's in response to uh you know an infection or like a parasite

Host: mold and stuff like that. I know some people have like mold poisoning or whatever and they get

Dr. Martin: yeah very often there's like a trigger. There's like sometimes a lingering kind of condition and then sometimes there's an acute trigger and the body is never able to fully recover. So what do we take from that you know story of a of a summer fling?

Host: Well I I take from it hope.

Dr. Martin: Yeah. that you know even when the cards seem to be stacked against you and it feels like you might have to live with this thing for a long time that in many cases miraculous things happen that defy the odds and hope itself I think can keep us in an optimistic mind mindset I've seen this in patients with mitochondrial diseases as well you know these people are diagnosed with a genetically defined mitochondrial disease their mitochondria can't flow energy properly so every day they live probably with this kind of discomfort of you know holding your breath for too long

Host: and Everything's difficult about life.

Dr. Martin: Many of them lose hope. And and when you see them losing hope, they start to go downhill physically and many of them die very early. The people who do the best like their mitochondria don't work the way they should, but they they're able to find something that they love. They're able to, you know, find an expression for for themselves. And they're have supportive family. Almost a universal theme for people who do well is they have a supportive, you know, environment. And cultivating this is is so precious. And that brings us back maybe to social connections. You know, you energetic process, me energetic process. When we interact, you know, through um through sounds and and you know, physically shaking hands and uh and I feel your energy, I feel your excitement, you feel mine. And then, you know, we we might vibe and resonate and and then maybe you know, you find someone and you feel love for that person. I think love is the experience of resonance, right? And and when you feel that with someone, it feels so special.

Host: Which goes back to the affair point.

Dr. Martin: Yeah. Maybe

Host: maybe on this point of exercise which we talked about earlier, if someone wants to maximize mitochondrial biogenesis, what is the sweet spot for training? Is it strictly zone 2 cardio or highintensity interval training or resistance training or something else? Is there like an optimal type of training?

Dr. Martin: Yeah, I think the key principle here is anything that will make you breathe harder.

Host: Yeah.

Dr. Martin: Means that your mitochondria are working harder.

Host: Okay. But you don't want to do it too long

Dr. Martin: if you're not trained, right? Like you're regular guy. I'm not trained now. I I I I run for like 20 minutes every other day. That's my, you know, routine. That's what I I have enough time to do. And I feel like it moves energy through my body in the right way. But if I go and I try to run a marathon, I'm going to injure myself. You know, I'm going to hurt myself. So that would be too much for me. And so I think that comes back to the point of like feeling into your energy. We call this mitoception right feeling into your mitochondria and what's sustainable. So I think there's an individualized you know stance that we need to take towards this.

Host: And the last question from the audience was right now mitochondrial health feels a bit invisible. Are there any accessible reliable tests like ATP blood tests or specific biomarkers that a normal person can use to accurately measure their mitochondrial function.

Dr. Martin: Working on it.

Host: You're working on it.

Dr. Martin: Yeah. So our team is working on it. Uh and so we're building uh a technology platform that would allow people to tune into their mitochondria to mito, right? So do you feel your energy through your mitochondria? Uh and then you can make better decisions like ketogenic diet, is this helping you? Is this not helping you? Uh this new relationship, is this sucking away your energy or is this giving you energy? This new job, this new, you know, direction in life. Um there's so much I mean all of the important decisions we make really you know we make what how we feel like you wake up in the morning and either you feel great and you can change things or you wake up and and you don't want to be here. Uh that's an experience and before you get there you know on the dark side there's all of these decision points that that we face and the power of discernment right and what we talked about like with Steve Jobs like this is the way and then you know you feel strong about this discerning what's right for you what's not right for you what's the right direction is it the right time or not those are decisions we make you know with our guts and there are many people who who swear that this is the only way they make decisions and if they make decisions rational definitely that ends up biting them in the butt because I think the this thing and this energetic system is the most sensitive instrument that we have to know whether the content of our lives is aligned with who we are as individuals and that requires that we feel into this movement and into our sensations and into um the experiences we have. So that's the the barometer that really guides us through life like a GPS, an energetic GPS.

Host: Dr. Martin, we have a closing tradition on

Host: this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that has been left for you is, what is the most difficult thing you ever overcame and how did it make you the person you are today? So, I just felt my energy change.

Dr. Martin Picard: I saw it change. I felt like this sinking feeling about a year ago. Um, my fiance and I were expecting a baby and we were about 3 months into the pregnancy and it was great. We were excited. Um we were calling this new life new life and we talked you know affectionately about it and we said like you know when new life comes this and we both have a child and um and she was in Canada she came back and then uh and that evening in in bed she had this like crazy pain that started and uh and we were about super scared. there was a bit of bleeding and then and then the contraction started to come really fast. Not supposed to happen at 3 months. Um and then I was like, "Oh, maybe this is just like a bump in the road and and you know, things are going to be fine." Um so we ended up having a miscarriage and na didn't want to go to the hospital. So we did this at home and it was terrible. It was really, really sad, really, you know, gut-wrenching. So, we were were both devastated when, you know, New Life us and and then I had this moment of like, why me? Like, why the this has happened to me? Like, I'm I think I'm a good person. I'm doing my best to bring good in the world. I try to be a good partner, good um, you know, leader. I try to Yeah. Why is this happening to me? So, this was like this victim, you know, mentality, mindset. And I've learned through my 40 or so years that I think a a useful stance to take in life is to assume that there's something to learn from everything you go through.

Dr. Martin Picard: I don't know this for sure. It's not a a scientific fact. It's more of a of an experience turned into kind of a way of of living, more of a belief. So I was like, but how could there be something to learn from something so terrible? Um, and I had to sit with this and two days later after the baby had gone and N Rosha and I had sat in the shower and cried and the smell was horrible and just it would death like death was around us around me and I felt angry and I felt sad. Um, and I just sat down and wrote I I just and that's my way now of letting things flow. Different people have different ways and and I was writing about my experience and why now and and I asked what is there to learn from this and a very clear answer came up slowing down and that hit really hard because throughout my whole life I've moved pretty quickly through life. I had a very short, you know, PhD. Then I became a professor very quickly and uh and grew a team and um and like moving fast is kind of something that's like a personality trait that I I do. And uh and I think sometimes it's served me. It's allowed me to do some things that it would not have been possible otherwise. But at other times I think it's hurt me. And it's like this drive, this inner drive like things must happen now, must move fast. I think has hurt other people around and has impaired my ability to be an effective leader because I then maybe I lacked sensit sensitivity to other people who don't move at my pace. Uh so slowing down really kind of um hit home. Things were like clear. It was like looking at a canvas and there was more contrast.

Host: Like the things that really mattered were like sharper, right?

Dr. Martin Picard: and all of this other like these obligations and these things that I had said yes to or like you know the contrast was so much sharper. Um and this lesson I I took this as a lesson slowing down I think has allowed me to be a better listener to be a better you know more compassionate father and uh scientist uh I think it's changed me and I don't know that I would have learned that lesson in another way we are the this energetic process that's shaped by the sum of our experiences and the people we meet like I'll never be the same after today from having sat with you at this table and you opening the door not just to scientific inquiry but to human experience yeah the we we change all the time we transform and what shapes us is those kind of energetic interactions and um yeah everything we go through

Host: well I'll never be the same either for for I think all the best reasons. I'm you know I have to say that I'm I'm I'm hesitating my words here because of the gratitude that you've taken from the wisdom that it's given you. But I'm terribly sorry that that hap you had to go through that. I can only I just can't imagine. It's one of my honestly it's like one of my like worst nightmares especially at the season of life I'm in when me and my partner and my fiance are trying to have a kid. It's just like I think I think I'm thinking about those things now and how I would I'm like preempting how I would handle those kinds of things. So to hear that it happened to you is just it's um it's really it's really difficult to hear. Um

Dr. Martin Picard: it happens to about 20 million people a year.

Host: Most people don't talk about it either, do they? Cuz

Dr. Martin Picard: people don't talk about it.

Host: Yeah. Cuz it's shrouded in mixed emotions and

Dr. Martin Picard: Yeah, I can understand that.

Host: but I am better off for having this conversation with you. And I think you know I speak on behalf of my audience for sure this time when I say that I think my audience are as well. I've learned so much. which has actually kind of like completely rechanged how I think about life itself, which is a weird thing. It's also changed how I think about business which is really weird and unexpected. Um, business is is an extension of of us of, you know, energetic like everything is what I've learned today quite literally. And it's also made me think a lot about how I preserve, conserve, aim my energy. And I hope I can just sit in this moment a little bit and think about how I am energy and how how that's determining everything um around me and others and and it's um it's really really wonderful. I think what you know what you're doing people might think of you as like a mitochondrial scientist, but actually it's much more deeper and much more philosophical than that. When we think about what energy is to us, it's it is everything. M and that's really the lens that you've given me today is you've completely changed my mind on like how I think about life which is such a wonderful thing to get from a podcast. I don't say this like I don't kiss people people's asses like this like I genuinely my mind is like hell. Um, so Dr. Martin Picard, thank you so much. Thank you so much for your generosity and your wisdom. It's not very often that I have conversations that actually like instantly cause the shift in me, but this is one of them today. If people want to learn more about you and the work you're doing, where do we channel that energy, where do they go?

Dr. Martin Picard: The best place for people to go is a website martinpicard.energy.

Host: Okay.

Dr. Martin Picard: And then from this website, you'll see information about the book. You'll see information about the research core energetic principles that cover what we've covered today. There are little animations and there's information about the institute.

Host: Okay. Thank you so much.

Dr. Martin Picard: Thank you.

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