Christine: I'm Christine Zier Klosedt.

Kyra: I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Christine: And you're listening to The Wirecutter Show.

Christine: Kyra.

Kyra: Hi. Hello.

Christine: Do you know how many pieces of clothing you have in your wardrobe?

Kyra: think I want to know.

Christine: And how many outfits?

Kyra: I wear five.

Christine: Wear five.

Kyra: Yeah. You've seen me and all the clothes that I wear.

Christine: I think a lot of people find getting dressed in the morning kind of a chore, whether you love clothing or whether you don't. You know, it can be time consuming, it can be annoying. Who amongst us hasn't like tried on 15 outfits in the morning and then like your room is just a mess. You know, and then there's just like the issue of getting into a rut. You're wearing the same thing over and over again and you get tired of that. So we are going to talk about a potential solution for that today.

Kyra: And I'm really excited cuz I am one of those people who is stuck in that rut. So today we're bringing one of Wirecutter's style writers. Her name is Francis Sola Santiago and she swears by this digital wardrobe service. It's basically an app. It has just helped her organize her closet and made it so much easier for her to decide what to wear.

Christine: Of course, there's an app for that.

Kyra: Of course.

Christine: Hey Francis, welcome to the show.

Francis: Thank you so much for having me.

Christine: We're talking about digital wardrobe apps today. I want to know broad strokes, what does a digital wardrobe app do? Like how does it work? You know, what are you using it for?

Francis: I feel like one of the first few things that comes to mind for a lot of people when I tell them about digital wardrobe apps is the Clueless closet, right? It's this motorized, digitized kind of world in which you step in and you're able to really scroll through your closet without having to even open the doors. And that has always been a fantasy for a lot of people.

Christine: You're talking like movie Clueless, right?

Francis: Yes. Absolutely. A very iconic closet. I think that a lot of people reference back to Clueless because it's such a I think it was one of the first few times that we saw that sort of concept on TV. And so, over the years, a lot of companies have tried to really get this concept. And the digital wardrobe apps are the closest thing, I think, that is available today. So, basically, it's an app where you are able to input all of the items in your closet, whether it's in a closet or in a drawer, whatever it is. You can document whatever type of accessory or clothing you want to document. And the idea is that you reference it and you use it as a tool to help you get dressed and to develop a really healthier relationship with your closet, as you if you will. Really understand what you have. Really be able to get creative. But also to be a little bit more productive with getting dressed. And I think it's really an attempt to optimize the the getting dressed experience.

Christine: And so, basically, when you are documenting your wardrobe, you're either taking photos of what you have in your closet or maybe you're uploading links to things that you know that that's exactly what it is. And then that's the way that you can you have like this visual representation on your phone of everything that's in your closet.

Francis: That's correct. So, basically, you take a photo. You have a few ways of uploading your stuff to these apps. The one that I recommend, you're able to take a photo or use a link or even forward a receipt from a transaction that was either in person, if you have like one of those email receipts, you're able to forward it. And it scans all the information, sort of inputs it for you. The process of uploading all of that in bulk can be a little bit time-consuming. And it's definitely an investment. But it gets easier down the line to sort of add and delete stuff as you go.

Christine: So, let's talk a little bit more about this this app that you recommend on our site specifically. It's called Index.

Francis: Yeah.

Christine: Why did you like this one out of all the others? What is different about Index?

Francis: Right. So, uh there are a couple of apps um that are trying to do this. I think Index to me was the most successful because it removed a lot of the gimmicks out of it. Trying to digitize your wardrobe is already gimmicky enough. And I think what Index does really well is maintain the human experience of it even though you're using an app and you're relying on tech. So, there are other apps like Open Wardrobe and Alta that are heavily reliant on AI and they sort of do the work for you. They create an avatar. They have this agent that helps you get dressed in the morning. And that's fine for a lot of people. I think some people do want that sort of extra help. But what I really like about Index is that even the paid features which provide uh stylists that are available to you to help you with your closet, those are humans on the other side. And I think Index really retains that experience that you can really use it as a tool, but at the end of the day the work is still done by yourself and another human if you want to rely on them.

Kyra: Okay. So, I was kind of imagining this like uh you know when you watch the Iron Man movies and he has that AI called Jarvis and he's talking to you. He's like, "Jarvis." Like I was like, "Oh, I guess you could talk to Index and be like, 'Jarvis, make my outfit for this morning.'" Right. Whatever. It's not quite like that. It's not an AI who's building your wardrobe for you.

Francis: Yeah. And there are apps that do that, but I think it really depends on what you want from and and what also what sort of expertise level maybe you have with style. I'm someone who has a lot of experience and I love getting dressed in the morning even though as I said in the piece, it can be a very anxiety-inducing process sometimes. But at the end of the day, I don't want to rely on tech as much. I don't want to remove that much of the decision-making or the tactile sometimes experience that is getting dressed. And I think when AI gets involved, it it can remove a little bit of that.

Christine: And so, with some of these other apps that you have tried, cuz you tried a few of these over the course of of the years, right? You know, you mentioned earlier that some of these apps can feel gimmicky. Is it really the avatar part of it that feels gimmicky? Is there some other element that, you know, kind of stuck out to you as a problem for the other apps that you tried?

Francis: Yeah, another app that I tried that is one of the most popular is Whering. It's very similar to Index, but to me the UX felt too gimmicky. It has sort of a style roulette that tries to put together outfits for you, and you sort of swipe left and right trying

Kyra: a dating app.

Francis: Or like a dating app. Yeah, very much very much like the Polly Pocket game. And I I At first it was kind of fun, but then I realized that the stuff that it was sort of trying to serve me to put together didn't make any sense, and I just got tired of it really fast. But Index feels very sleek, very minimal. There's not a lot of ex- sort of stuff jumping around at you because, you know, looking at your closet and scrolling through it can be overwhelming enough, and I think having that sort of clean UX is very, very helpful.

Kyra: So, did you use Index to come up with your outfit that you're wearing today?

Christine: It's very cute, by the

Francis: Thank you.

Christine: Like I like how you're very minimal, but like also you're wearing a print, which wouldn't automatically be minimal.

Kyra: So, for the people who aren't in the room,

Christine: give us a picture.

Kyra: Yes, what are you wearing today?

Francis: Okay, so I'm wearing a floral print dress that's a shirt dress made of cotton poplin. I'm wearing a navy sweater from Uniqlo that is strapped around my waist, and I'm wearing some loafers and a pair of really beautiful vintage earrings that I got in Italy last year. All of this stuff is documented on my digital wardrobe app, and actually this morning I woke up, it was cloudy, I was really tired, and all I did was just scroll through the outfits that I already had together and chose one and put it on.

Kyra: Are you um, you know how we all have our phone time before bed or whatever, instead of like scrolling through social media, are you like putting together outfits for yourself?

Francis: am. [laughter] Yes, I was talking to my husband about this and he said that he can always tell when I'm using Index because I start using my phone like my grandmother in which I instead of scrolling with my thumb, I use it with my index finger.

Kyra: [laughter]

Francis: Because I'm putting together at like outfits and dragging stuff around.

Christine: Can you actually walk me through a little bit of what the actual process of using Index? So you've got your entire digital wardrobe and is it just you just like mixing and matching things and does it put it up on a white screen? Do does it have a picture of you that you put it on top of and is the app prompting you in any way to like help you come up with your style?

Francis: You have a couple of interfaces. You have your closet, you have your outfits tab and then you have your collections. So the first thing that comes to mind when you open the app is a sort of a grid, very similar to an Instagram feed for example, of the stuff that you have in your closet and you can kind of scroll through it. There's also a search bar up top where you can search stuff by a keyword or also use filters for you know, if you're looking for outerwear, if you're looking for bottoms and all of that stuff. And then you can also switch to the outfits tab which has all the outfits that you've already created and then you can scroll through those and then there's also filters for those. So for example, if you put together a lot of outfits for work, which I already have a tab for that, I can just tap on the work tab and you know, all the outfits that I've put together for work appear. So you can sort of create filters that way. And then there's also the collections tab which is very helpful for packing. I absolutely love it because it allows you to sort of create a closet within a closet, like a capsule collection and you pull in certain items from your wider closet and then put together outfits with just those items, and then you're also able to use the calendar feature, which is available for all of the digital wardrobe tabs, but this one you can really use it to put together outfits for your trip, you know, using the itinerary, using the weather, or the time zone that you're going to be in. It's really, really helpful.

Kyra: This is fascinating. So, tell me, like have you done a trip recently where you used this feature for a for packing?

Francis: Yes. So, I did a 2-week honeymoon to Italy in December, which was lovely.

Kyra: Well, congratulations.

Francis: Thank you. Um and my husband is a very functional packer. We really, really wanted to do this with just two carry-ons for 14 days, and bear in mind that this is winter.

Christine: Tricky.

Kyra: And so, um we had to bring coats, we had to bring sweaters. It was very complicated. So, I used the app for that, and basically, I put together a capsule wardrobe for myself that included two coats, three or four sweaters, two button-downs, two pairs of shoes, and then two, I think two to three bottoms. And then, I brought also some layering pieces, and all of that fit into my carry-on.

Kyra: Wow. Did it fit on the first try?

Francis: Yes.

Kyra: Okay, that's super interesting.

Francis: And I still had space for stuff that I bought over there. I got a really amazing pair of vintage shoes. I got, you know, I was in Italy. I went all out.

Kyra: everything during your 14-day trip?

Francis: Yes.

Christine: Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and then when we're back, we're really going to get into more about how Frances uses this app to solve specific wardrobe problems, like for shopping for new items, and wearing more color. We'll be right back.

Christine: Welcome back. So, it sounds like this app has a bunch of different features. Are all of them free? I'm guessing probably not cuz that sounds too good to be true.

Francis: Uh you're correct. There is a free and a paid version. The free version has been good enough for me because all I've ever wanted is a good wardrobe interface, some options to put together outfits, and that the collections feature, which is really helpful for packing. But, if you want to have a more involved sort of tool with Indyx, there is a paid version that gives you great insights into the cost per wear of your items, how many of your pieces are second hand, what types of color do you wear. You sort of get so much data about what you wear. So, if you're someone who's super data driven, I would definitely suggest that. But, just seeing the number of pieces that I have on my digital wardrobe is enough for me.

Kyra: How many pieces do you have?

Francis: I can I can pull it up. It's over 200. Yes. This is also important. I only document the stuff that is hanging in my closet, and shoes and bags. But, this doesn't include like pajamas, intimates, workout clothes, none of that. And I also document jewelry. So, you can also sort of pick and choose what you document, and the free version is good enough for me for that. And then there's the paid version aside from the data insights, it also opens the door to connecting with stylists that are on the Indyx app. You can sort of pick and choose whichever you want to work with, and then they help you out. They have access to your wardrobe, and so they help you out in putting together outfits, in identifying gaps in your wardrobe, and things that you might be missing. And then there's also a social networking feature that I kind of love in which if you have friends that are also really into style, if you're sort of in this figuring out personal style journey together, you can access each other's closets. And so, you can sort of put together outfits for other people. You can see what someone else is wearing for that party on Friday. You know, you you you

Kyra: dress.

Christine: And that that's the free version or the paid version?

Francis: That's the paid version. Yes, sadly.

Christine: My My sister has used one of these apps, not this Index one, but a different one, and she loved it. Partially because she was sort of in a style transition moment where, you know, she'd been raising kids, you know, I think it was like post-pandemic, her wardrobe needed some help. And the app that she was using would also make suggestions of clothing to buy that would fit into her wardrobe. Does this app do the same thing?

Francis: It doesn't. But, that's when I think if you are someone who wants that sort of service, the stylists are very helpful. Having the app do it, I think it's really good if you're someone who might not be as involved with their personal style. The shopping experience is also super personal. So, I always see stylists as sort of a second or third therapist, if you will. Those sort of style journeys are, you know, they impact so much of how you feel about yourself, how you go about your day, how you even show up for work and for your family and your lifestyle. And so, I sometimes I feel like relying too much on tech for that might not be It's like using ChatGPT as a therapist.

Kyra: Yeah. Which it has its place, I think, for some people. But, okay, I want to talk about shopping.

Christine: Yeah.

Kyra: So, how do you do you use this app when you're going out into the world shopping, gathering things for your wardrobe?

Francis: I do. I use it a couple different ways. So, I think one of the best use cases is to really identify when you're in store, if you really gravitate toward this beautiful mustard shirt, and then you open up your digital wardrobe to realize that you have 10 different mustard pieces.

Christine: [laughter]

Francis: You know? And you're like, okay, enough mustard. I think we can sort of vary it. Same with, you know, I There was a couple of years ago that I realized I had like five different pairs of black pants and I was like, I do not need to buy more black pants. Enough with the black pants.

Kyra: [laughter]

Francis: So, I think it really helps you to identify multiples or duplicates in your closet. It makes you stop and sort of reconsider your purchasing decisions. Another way that I use it is, you know, when you're in trying something on, you really like it. It's something that fits within your wardrobe. You don't have anything like it, but then you're like, so how do I put this together? I think it's something that you can just quickly take a photo in the dressing room, upload it as a sort of a beta item in your digital wardrobe that you can then delete if you don't buy it, and then try to put together a couple outfits in your app before even going home. And if it really fits, if it's something that you're easily thinking of ideas or ways to wear it, I think it's definitely something that you can buy. And then if you have the paid version, it really tells you the cost per wear of stuff. It's really helpful, you know, if you're really thinking about buying an expensive pair of shoes, an expensive bag, and you're like, you know, I don't have anything like this. I wear bags so much that I have a cost per wear of a cent. You know, then you might justify that purchase to yourself and say, you know, I'm going to be wearing it for 10, 20 years, and it's something that, you know, if you spend a lot of money, it might boil down to a better cost per wear.

Kyra: So, with that feature, you could essentially just estimate how frequently you would use it per week for how many years or something. Okay.

Christine: Do you ever get tired of tracking what you're wearing? Like, do you ever get

Francis: Yes. Which is why I I haven't done the paid version because I do take breaks from Indyx, I will say. Sometimes, for example, when I go home to Puerto Rico, I just bring like silky pants and, you know, bikinis and I just throw on stuff and I don't care what I wear. But, I take breaks that way. I also, sometimes I work from home most of the time. I'm not getting dressed all the time.

Christine: Yeah.

Francis: So, if you could look at my calendar on Indyx, there are definitely blank days because sometimes I just wake up and I just want to throw on a pair of leggings and call it a day.

Kyra: Well, I want to talk more about maybe it feels intimidating for people to get out of their comfort zone or they're not sure how to make something new fit into their current wardrobe. Like, I have probably like five pairs of black pants and I pretty much wear black, no shame in the game.

Christine: Yeah, it always looks good.

Kyra: It matches everything. But, I literally, it's so bad, like I wear black most of the time. I wore like a brown dress last week. My partner was like, "Oh my god, you look so great. I never see you in this color." I'm like, "It's brown."

Francis: Yeah.

Kyra: In terms of incorporating color, how does this app solve that problem?

Francis: Yeah. I'm also in the same boat. Um I used black for years. I definitely understand that there's it's really, really easy to just fall back on those neutrals and there's no shame in that. I definitely think I'm someone who wearing neutrals is I don't know, it makes me feel safe. And so, I realized that going little by little was the best way to do it. This app really helped me and over time, I'm not saying that I've gotten super great at wearing color, but I have incorporated it a lot more, especially during winter because winter to me is the worst time to get dressed. Just adding pops of color is a is a lot better when you can just sort of visualize it before putting it on your body.

Christine: We've talked a lot about if you have a lot of clothes and you you need to decide what to wear. What if you are the type of person who kind of wears the same thing every day? Maybe you have multiple versions of that thing, but it's kind of like jeans and a t-shirt. Is something like this useful for that use case as well?

Francis: So, when I was writing this story, me and my editors were a little afraid that this was something that was only useful for me because I'm so style forward and that's all I think about all the time. And so, we gave the app to our senior staff writer, Alyssa. She writes about tech and apps all the time. Um and she gave it a test run for about 2 weeks. And I loved how she approached it because she was very honest with herself and she was like, "Look, I only wear jeans and a t-shirt all the time." But, she has a 44 t-shirt collection.

Kyra: Wow.

Francis: All really cool graphic t-shirts. And she was like, you know, I realized that I was forgetting the t-shirts that I have. And so, she just documented the t-shirts, and that's it. She didn't use the app to put together outfits, she didn't use the packing tab or anything like that. But, she said that she started using a lot more of her t-shirts after documenting them because she could just scroll through them instead of like finding that weird corner where one t-shirt might have ended up after a clean up or, you know, it's full of dust or whatever it is. You know, think about the physical sort of motion of just going through your closet in the morning. Sometimes, if you have a lot of stuff, it can even feel like a workout sometimes. Um so, I I love that use case where she was just very honest with herself and just used it to document her t-shirts. So, I think it's very helpful for that, too. If you have like a big collection of shoes and that's that's all you want to document, I think it's definitely very helpful. I forget about stuff that I have all the time. And I think one of the most important things about these apps is that, you know, style is can be very intimidating. And I meet people all the time who say, "You know, I'm not stylish. I I'm not into fashion." But, you know, we all wear clothes every single day. And it's such an important part of how we show up in the world. You know, feeling comfortable with the clothes that you put on is super, super important, no matter if you're in jeans and a t-shirt or if you want to go all out and wear high heels. These tools are super helpful to just get us a little bit more comfortable with playing with that wardrobe and gain confidence in it.

Christine: I love that.

Kyra: Thank you, Francis. It was great to have you.

Francis: It was great to have my Wirecutter show debut. [laughter] Thank you. Love to come back anytime.

Kyra: The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Garen and produced by Abigail Kiehl. Engineering support from Maddie Massielo and Nick Guyton. Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Rowan Nemi Stojo, Catherine Anderson, and Diane Wong. Cliff Leavy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor-in-chief. I'm Christine Siracusa.

Kyra: I'm Cara Blackwell.

Christine: Thanks for listening.