Anna Martin: From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love and it's here.

We're in the thick of holiday season this week. It's Thanksgiving, then the winter holidays, then New Year's.

It's wonderful. But I think we can be honest. It's also a lot.

I'm talking the big family dinners with cousins who you love but who have very different politics than you. Those awkward questions about your love life from that one prying aunt. Your new partner who you're bringing home and you're worried they won't get along with their siblings.

The holidays are stressful because they drop us right in the middle of all of these complicated relationship dynamics.

That's why we asked if you could use any advice for this time of year.

And today we have Nedra Glover Touab on the show.

Nedra's a therapist. She's also an author.

She's written several books, including one called Dramafree, all about how to have better relationships with your family.

And she's here to answer your questions so you're a little more prepared for the holiday season.

Nedra Glover Tab, welcome to Modern Love.

Thank you for having me.

Okay, Nedra, this is our Thanksgiving episode.

You are a therapist. Is Thanksgiving a very busy time for you?

Do you get a lot of business as it were during the holiday season?

Well, believe it or not, I have we we have so many people calling our practice on Black Friday.

We're not open, but we have so many voicemails and emails because people have had terrible experiences and they're like, "Oh my gosh, I need to talk to someone."

So interesting.

Yeah. And for people who are just starting therapy, that is the day.

Not only are people shopping, they're shopping for new therapists.

So they are [laughter] they are looking for many things on Black Friday. Yes.

I mean, why do you think it's like that's the moment where they're like, I actually need a therapist right now.

I actually need a therapist right now.

Yeah. Because year after year, they've endured like these intolerable or difficult or problematic experiences.

And so this is the time where it's like I have to get a handle on this thing because I almost broke yesterday and some of them did break.

So Black Friday it's like okay I've I've had my moment. I need help. I cannot do it on my own.

Next year needs to be different.

You know I'm thinking about your Monday after Thanksgiving.

Do you ever wish you could like be a fly on the wall at one of your clients' Thanksgivings just to see what's happening?

Absolutely.

I wish I could just like go home in their pockets or [laughter] there was some way for me to like be on FaceTime like no no tell her this right.

It's like, [laughter] [gasps] yeah, I wish I could, you know, be a fly on a wall,

but some of my clients have been saying for so long, I'm able to say like, "How was cousin Renee this year?" You know, [laughter] it's like,

"Oh, that must be so nice for them to have that level of familiarity."

Yeah. And they're like, "Oh my gosh, you remember?"

Oh, yes, I do.

Oh, after what she did last year. How could I forget? [laughter] You know,

[laughter] You know,

oh my god, I love that cousin Renee.

I mean it it strikes me that you know holidays are at least I would say in my experience kind of like this pressure cooker of emotion

certainly some beautiful you know connected moments but also it can be a lot.

It's like, you know, you work through family issues, you know, history, whatever in therapy, and that's from a distance, you know, often.

And then you come back for the holidays, and you're just right in the middle of all of these dynamics again.

You know, I I feel like this hopefully isn't unique, but when I go home to my family home for Thanksgiving, I feel like I cross the threshold and I just regress to sort of 11, 12, you know what I mean?

And that age, Anna, was not fun to be around.

Why does that sort of regression happen in your experience?

Well, it's interesting because you mentioned going to therapy

and it's one thing to learn the tools to have the resources and it's a whole another thing to practice, right?

And when we go home with our families, it's like this is the time to practice the stuff that you've been learning.

Without that practice piece, have you really learned anything? M.

And so when you get back into that mode of, "Oh my gosh, I'm 12 again." That's when you need to pull out your little therapy journal or your pull up your notes app and practice [laughter] some of that stuff you've been working through.

The regression happens because we are in a pattern, right?

Like we we go around, you know, our parents, our siblings, and we are used to being in a certain role.

And it's very hard, not just for us to get out of it, for the people around us to accept that we are no longer this 12year-old that they need to boss around or this 12year-old that needs to like do these things that you've done in previous years.

So, it's really up to you to say, I am going to be different this year.

And maybe it's not completely different.

Maybe it's just agreeing to, I'm going to change one thing. I'm going to change two things.

Maybe not three, but just like one or two things.

Don't overwhelm yourself.

But I can do this thing a little bit differently.

And maybe your thing is, you know, everybody's talking to me.

Maybe you're the person. I know I am.

You know, everybody's talking to you about their problems.

Well, you might want to interject with your own problems this [laughter] year.

I will say that's not my role in my family.

Well, guess what I have going on? [laughter] You know,

I mean, I'm wondering, you know, my thing was I was a very sullen teenager.

I just was like angry and annoyed and I picked fights and I really don't feel that way anymore now as a 31-year-old.

But what I mean by regression is I'll go home and I'll just have such a short fuse again.

And so I wonder like what is a kind of small way that I could try to correct that do you think?

Yeah, I would say you know maybe notice when you feel your energy shifting and have a little talk with yourself like what happened there girl like is there a opportunity for you to do something?

Yeah girl, what can I what can I do?

So having that chat with yourself maybe you write that down.

Maybe it's in the bathroom. Maybe it's just in your head, but noticing your behavior sort of reverting and agreeing with yourself like I have to do something different.

I know that I'm I'm going back to little me and I don't want to do that.

I'm 31 now. I don't have to do that anymore.

You know, I'm curious.

We're talking about me, but I want to turn it to you.

Have you ever had a family holiday that you were anxious for or needed to prepare yourself for because it was going to be difficult or or just a lot in some way?

Yeah. I think when blending families, you never know how it's going to go.

So, if you're having uh you know, when I've had like family with or holidays with my family and in-laws, it's like, I hope everybody gets along.

Trying to control how other people engage creates a lot of anxiety.

Like, if I have a friend over, it's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm inviting my friend to this family experience. Will they be able to, you know, sort of go with the flow?"

Yeah.

What how did you say it?

wanting to manage how other people interact.

I mean, yes, I feel this.

You know, it's the sort of classic host anxiety.

How do you address that within yourself when you're like, "Oh my gosh, I hope my friend and my mother-in-law or my mom and my mother-in-law."

How do you quiet that?

What do you tell yourself?

Yeah, I I have come to be okay with people having the awkward pause.

I do try to It's like, "Oh, nobody's talking. Is that a problem? Are they resting? Do I go do conversation starters?

Yes. Yes. Yes. This is my whole

Should I break out the karaoke machine? Like what's going

You're like a jester like totally. Yeah. I

like let me entertain them. [gasps]

So, you know, sometimes I'll play music or sometimes I'll turn something on TV, but at the end of it all, it's like these are not interactions I need to control.

There are times where people want to talk and times where they don't want to talk and they feel okay.

My assumption has been like, "Oh my gosh, they're bored. They need to do something. They"

And that assumption is not always correct because even when I'm socializing with people, sometimes I'm thinking like, "Woo, we've been talking a really long time."

You know, it just [laughter] I'd love to I'd love to just listen to the music.

Like, why do I think they need like this magic show going?

That [laughter] is so true.

I mean, and now this is just turning into me, you know, sort of asking for personal advice.

I promise we'll get to the amazing listener questions, but sort of in this realm, I find it very difficult at a big family gathering, Thanksgiving dinner, whatever, to end a one-on-one conversation, you know what I mean?

It's like you sort of run your course with a conversation with a loved one, and then I always panic.

I'm like, I got to go to the bathroom or like, I'm gonna get a drink.

And that just, first of all, that's not always true.

I don't need to go to the bathroom or get a drink.

like how can we apply these lessons of sort of being okay with silence to ending a conversation?

I hope this isn't just me specific.

I think this is kind of universalish.

Yeah. I I I have a I have a relative that I'm thinking of

and I feel like there have been family gatherings where they have cornered someone and you can tell the person is tired of talking to them because sometimes people just keep saying the same thing in different ways and it's like there is no ending to this as long as you listen to them.

So, you know, I think saying like, "Hey, you know, I'm going to go to the restroom."

Or, "Oh, let me go and talk to cousin so and so,"

or, "Oh, wait a minute."

Like, uh, that was such a great story. I'm going to eat a piece of cheese. [laughter]

Like, having some go-to phrase.

Um, I I love to say like, "Okay, hold on one second. I'll be back in a in a bit."

Okay.

It's good to know that my technique of saying, "I'm going to get a drink," is therapist approved.

I I will say this, so thank goodness for that sign off.

All right, let's get into some of these listener questions.

The one I want to start off with is one that I think is a very classic Thanksgiving dinner table dilemma.

It's from our listener, Amy.

Hello, modern love.

I could really use some advice.

My partner and I recently visited my parents and politics came up more than once.

I have been practicing disengaging when the topic comes up.

However, this time, as I sensed the conversation heating up, I decided to act like I had something I needed to do.

So, I got up and walked to the bedroom, leaving my boyfriend alone to face the firing squad.

I could hear some of the conversation, but was doing my best to tune it out, despite my feelings of guilt and leaving my boyfriend to fend for himself.

He wasn't even disagreeing with them, but they would not even stop to listen to what he had to say without interrupting him and talking over him.

I felt absolutely terrible for leaving him in that situation and I did apologize for doing that to him.

This was his first time physically being involved in this situation and he was very upset over how they treated him.

He felt very unheard and even like he'd been ganged up on.

I would greatly appreciate any advice you can give as to how we can keep this from happening again over the Thanksgiving holiday.

All right, Nedra, I'm curious.

There's a lot there.

What are your immediate reactions? What do you make of that situation from Amy?

Yeah, it seems like Amy figured out a way for herself to get out of it, but I don't think she shared that way of coping with her boyfriend. [laughter] So,

so yeah, he was he was stuck there.

Poor guy.

Um, I I think shifting the topic is really important.

And when people are zealous about, you know, a topic, they can like not listen and they just want you to to hear everything they have to say.

They're really not concerned about how you view the thing.

They're like, "No, this is it and then this and did you see the guy did this and blah blah blah."

We have to be able to shift the topic.

And so sometimes I think in a very humorous way we can, you know, maybe hop in and say like any other topics of discussion or I have another conversation for us or what do you think about the Detroit Lions this year?

You know, like is there something else that I could just sort of pop in when I notice that a person is staying on a topic?

You know, like is there something else that I could just sort of pop in when I notice that a person is staying on a topic?

It's hard to do that, isn't it, without like offending someone, right?

Like or

they're offending you.

Here's the thing.

It's so shocking to me when we're like, "Oh my gosh, I don't want to be rude."

They're actually being rude.

They're not listening to you.

They're not allowing you to get a word in.

Sometimes when you're sharing your opinion, people will say, "Oh, it's silly. It's stupid because duh."

Particularly with politics.

And so if you're worried about being rude, if you're worried about being mean, just remember they're already doing it.

Wow.

That [laughter] is a really interesting reframe.

Yeah.

It's like, "I'm sorry, I don't want to butt in."

It's like you have butting in.

Yeah.

And then you have just as much of a right to sort of disrupt with with kindness but also, you know, with sort of a firm approach this conversation.

And I will say this certainly this could have happened already, but Amy and her boyfriend, if they are to return, you know, this year should probably have a conversation just the two of them.

What would you recommend, you know, that conversation between Amy and her boyfriend to be before they step, you know, into the family Thanksgiving?

Yeah, I think signals with couples are very important.

You know, when I go somewhere with my husband, it's like, what is the signal that it's it's time to leave, right?

It's like, double tap on my vid in invisible watch.

It's like [laughter]

now that's pretty overt. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll just tap on my watch or I'll just stare at you for five seconds.

I don't know.

Whatever your thing is, right?

So, you know, just just having some sort of cue, whether it's a word, it's like, "Oh my gosh, I got to go to the car and get pineapples."

Like pineapple is the word.

Um, whatever it is, so you all are on the same page.

It could be a little hand tap on the, you know, on the leg or or something to know like I'm uncomfortable.

This is a situation I'd like us to get out of or I'd like to be removed from.

Because when we're taking people into situations with our families, we've built up some tolerance for it, right?

Like that person who has that extremely wet kiss on the face, you know, or the person who squeezes your hand too hard or the person who goes on and on about all of the people they know that are dying or, you know, whatever the the thing is.

It's like, prep your people for this.

Like don't just have them walk into these situations like it's normal.

Like yeah I I think saying like hey my aunt she loves to wear red lipstick and kiss you on the cheek.

You have to go in her for the hug or [laughter] you have to accept the lipstick.

Either or.

Those are your options, right?

Like I I don't I [laughter] don't kiss people.

I only hug.

You know, you have to be ready because she she's going to do it.

God, that is relatable.

the wet kiss.

I mean, you know, it is bringing up a good question and a bigger question too, I think, which is like what responsibility do you have to someone, a partner, whatever, when you bring them home into your family?

Do you have a responsibility to these people you bring into your family situations?

I say yes.

Like they are in your care.

They are delicate objects.

This is their first time.

Like when we're taking a friend or partner um into our family situation, we have to let them know, hey, this is what typically happens.

You know, just just giving them some primer so they're not like trapped in these conversation cycles or they're not getting like these wet kisses or, you know, whatever the things are.

We need to allow them to be aware and maybe they have some really good ideas about how to respond.

like if my uncle starts talking to you about, you know, this this scam that he really believes, what would you say to him?

You know, maybe doing some brainstorming.

That's I think that's a really good point.

It's like, you know, their perspective as a outsider could also be helpful to shedding some light to an approach, a tactic, a response that you would have never thought of because you're so sort of like immersed in the history of it.

really like that.

And again, you know, the reasons I like these tips you've outlined for Amy is, you know, it's not about trying to get Amy's family members to change, to strongarm them into not talking about this or to changing their beliefs.

It's like it's changing how you respond to it, right?

How you prepare for it, how Amy and her boyfriend are in this together.

I think that's really useful.

So Amy, we wish you luck.

Good [music] luck.

When we come back, Nedra answers more of your questions.

Stay with us. [music] [music]

Let's go to our next voicemail.

This is from a listener named Gordon.

Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday of the year and it has been since I was very young.

I have not spoken to my brother or sister in 5 years and that all circles around sobriety.

As we all know, Thanksgiving is a time to pull out the wine and good cheer and have all sorts of family discussion across the table.

this year. My difficulty is that my father is 92 and not much longer for this world.

Do I reconcile and go back to the chaos of the family meal and the alcohol flowing?

What do you think about Gordon's situation?

You know, I wonder is there an opportunity to time how long we'll be in that experience?

H maybe the the dinner and gathering is 4 to 5 hours and maybe your tolerance level is about an hour.

That's you being with your family in a way that you haven't been with them in the last 5 years if that's what you can tolerate.

You know, maybe the drinking starts after dinner, maybe it starts before.

I'm not really sure.

But I I think having some sort of time frame that you can allow yourself to be in that experience or even having some opportunities to step away.

So if you stay there four to four or 5 hours, maybe you have 10 little air breaks, right?

So you go outside,

you take some breaths, you walk around the block or you listen to some music, whatever you need to do to sort of ground yourself to be in that experience.

But I hear this caller saying that it's very important to be with family given um that his father is aging.

And so how can we be with family when they are problematic?

Maybe it's not in the typical way that we've done it in the past or even in the way that that they would want.

How can we show up and still preserve ourselves in that experience?

And so planning before is going to be really important.

And so if you haven't talked to your siblings in 5 years, you may not want to see them on this day and have this like this is the first awkward moment of you all being together.

So some sort of conversation beforehand.

Hey, you know, I know we haven't talked in a while, but I'm planning to be with you all for Thanksgiving this year, and I just want to make sure that we clear the air before we're in that space.

dad is aging and I want to make sure that it's a really good, you know, experience for him to see all of his children together.

What sort of things do we need to talk about before that day?

Totally.

That kind of prep work.

I mean, that was what I was going to say.

I could imagine it would be a lot of pressure and emotional weight to see these siblings who you haven't seen for years on the day of Thanksgiving.

So, doing that prep work like you're saying,

I mean, and you sort of answered this, but I want to be specific about it.

Um, and just to note that I don't know if this is Gordon's exact situation, but I I feel like this is pertinent.

It's like, what do you do? How would you advise someone if their family drinks a lot on the holiday and they are sober?

What would your tips be for that kind of situation?

Yeah, that's that's tough.

Um because you certainly can't make them not drink.

And I think that's the solution that we want.

Like how can I make this person who drinks a lot on the holidays not drink?

And we can't solve that.

But what we can solve is what I mentioned.

You can figure out how long you want to be a part of their drinking experience.

You can bring some concoctions that don't include alcohol.

they can partake if they want to.

And if they don't, that's fine.

You can have like this, you know, sort of leave window that when so and so starts to get to this point of like retelling their story 10 times, I'm out of here.

It's time.

That's my indicator.

So having a list of indicators for people because sometimes we know what when they start arguing about this story from when we were 12 years old or something. It's like that's my indication to get a little to go bag and get on out of there.

Right.

So having some idea of this is the situation I'm walking into and I know it.

Yeah.

I know what the situation is.

I have to have a plan that's different from what I've done in the past because I'm not going to reexperience um Thanksgiving 2007.

We won't do that one anymore.

We'll have a new experience because I'm trying to do some new things.

I really like that.

A list of indicators.

You know, my maybe my final question here is like if Gordon decides to go, even if he does this prep work like you're talking about, feels like he has a plan, it will undoubtedly be uncomfortable, right?

Emotionally uncomfortable.

How does one decide if putting yourself into an uncomfortable family situation is worth it?

I think it depends on how bad you want it, how bad you want to be with family.

And I don't I don't think myself as a therapist can determine that for a client.

I can't determine that for a listener.

Like how bad do you want to be in this experience versus um how bad is the discomfort?

There can be discomfort that is manageable.

It's it's not like every social or family gathering that you go into has to be like the most pleasant ever.

No, maybe you know you have a little anxiety in some situations.

You survive it.

You learn, huh, I can survive a Thanksgiving with all my relatives drinking if I leave at this time, right?

Like, and maybe you can do, you know, it's it's like you have to figure out what your threshold is for the discomfort.

Yeah,

it's it's okay to have a little Yeah,

it's okay to have a little bit of of something.

Even if it's not anxiety, just a little concern or worry or or doubt, it's it's okay to have that.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I I think, you know, you can figure out some ways to to manage that discomfort.

And if you can, I think that's the indication that maybe you don't need to go because you don't have any tools to be in the space.

Figure out what your own threshold is.

do the introspection before.

Um, see what you can tolerate because if you can tolerate it, you can prove to yourself, I can get through these hard things and you can continue to build on that.

All right, let's go to our next one.

Let's hear this question from a listener named Stephanie.

This year, my husband and I will be staying home for Thanksgiving and hanging out with some of my family and friends.

And that's different than what we usually do.

For the better part of our nearly decadel long relationship, we have gone to Florida to visit his parents who retired there.

And this past September, he tragically lost both of them within a week.

Um, his mom was kind of expected, but still surprising with the timeline.

She had cancer, and his dad was completely unexpected and surprising.

Um, he's doing a great job managing and dealing with that grief and pain.

But I'm anticipating Thanksgiving is going to be hard and I want to be there to support him.

So yeah, my question is just how how can I support him through a holiday that used to be one we spent with his parents and thought was one we would spend with them for many years to come and

thought was one we would spend with them for many years to come and

how can we adjust to this new reality of not doing that anymore?

What would you say to this listener about this situation?

We actually got several voicemails about this recently losing someone and celebrating the holidays for the first time without them.

If we are supporting someone who's going through grief, it can be really helpful to say something like, "I can imagine that Thanksgiving is going to be tough for you with the loss of your parents. What can I do to support you through that? Mhm.

And allowing them to to tell you what they need.

Uh holidays are tough for for folks who are grieving.

They don't forget about it.

If anything, the the grief is intensified.

And so, it can be really helpful for us to not try to ignore it because sometimes people will say, "I'm going to try not to think about it on Thanksgiving. I'm going to try to distract myself."

when in actuality is there mo some moment we can have to talk about this loved one who is no longer here this year

maybe before dinner or after dinner you know we make space for the tears we make space to grieve grandpa we say you know this year we lost the legend and we are all sad we we deeply miss him and so I want to give everybody an opportunity to to talk about you know just very briefly if they want to to say a few words about grandpa.

I really love that idea like designating a time that's sacred and connected to sort of grieve together, right?

As opposed to trying to sweep it under the rug or or maybe even talking about it too much because I think you can sort of overindex, right, on speaking about someone perhaps who's lost to the point where you're not in the moment anymore.

I like that idea of designating some time.

Yeah.

or is there a way to honor this person on that day?

I have one of my grandmother's baking dishes, right?

And so I love to, you know, make a cake in it or even just have it out, right?

Like as an experience of,

wow, I I love my grandmother.

I miss her.

It's so interesting what you're saying. It's just striking me.

My mom um every Christmas wears this like Christmas bear sweatshirt that was my grandma's her mom's um and does do that.

She'll say to everyone, you know, merry Christmas, whatever.

Like, I am missing my mom right now.

And it's it's I really appreciate it because it lets us know where she's at and it invites us to sort of be with her and share memories of my grandma.

So, she's doing these things, you know, herself.

I guess a followup to the first thing you said, which is ask this person, what can I do to support you?

What if someone was like, I don't I don't know. I don't know what you can do.

How would you respond in in that situation?

I think we have to get creative when people don't know what they need to be supported.

So that could look like if you see them like staring off, going to give them that hug or just squeezing their hand, rubbing their back, you know, checking in on them and saying, you know, how are you feeling?

anything you want to talk about?

Are you okay right now?

Um, doing that or even saying, you know, I I know that um you lost your parents.

Is there anything we could do to honor them?

Maybe you make your mom's mashed potato recipe.

You know, I think you could get really creative with how you incorporate them into this new experience.

Maybe you, you know, get a dish from the restaurant that catered their stuff, you know.

I don't I don't know what that looks like.

But yeah, I I think we're thinking about those folks and one of the worst things we could do is is try to pretend that that nobody's sad about this thing.

And yeah, we don't want it to overshadow the day.

So maybe we do try some new things.

We have to incorporate some new traditions.

And thinking about what those things could look like could create a little source of joy.

Like what's this new thing we could do?

You know, in previous years, maybe we watched the football game, but can we dress up as extreme fans? [laughter]

I really like that.

That is really sweet.

Like, inject the joy back into the day, too.

Try something new.

I really like dress up as extreme fans.

Yeah, she meant like [laughter] paint your belly and, you know, like do all the things.

I don't know.

Like, do do something fun.

But both things can exist at the same time.

You can hold joy and grief.

And so for some of us, it's like, if I'm grieving, that overshadows anything.

I can't feel anything else.

I'd be terrible if I felt anything else.

I don't believe our loved ones want us to suffer because they're no longer here.

So, if if there's an opportunity for us to to plan something to look forward to on this on this holiday that's going to be really hard without them, please do it.

M I really like that idea of painting a belly.

I mean, I think that's the first time that's been recommended on the show and I am happy for it.

[music] We'll be right back.

Nedro, we only have one more question for you.

Um, this one comes from a listener named Ila.

So, my family has a tradition at Thanksgiving where we sit around and go around the table before we eat and we talk about what we are thankful for.

And one of the first years that I ever got to go home with my new husband and was sitting around the table, he broke into this very beautiful monologue about how he was so thankful for me because I was pregnant with our child who we had to work very hard to bring into this world through IVF.

People were crying because he's basically saying how he's so thankful for me and how I'm so wonderful and he's so thankful for our family and he's so thankful for this baby and this life and everybody's really emotional and it just really was such a beautiful speech that everybody remembered.

Um, you know, I did end up having my child and I ended up getting hospitalized after in heart failure and came home with a newborn basically to realize that I had been cheated on.

And I did stay with him and it's been 3 and 1/2 years now and I've still been with him.

And the thing is I feel kind of sensitive about doing or participating in that activity now because what was said was such a lie, you know.

Um I don't see how you could feel those things for your partner and be so emotional and have a speech that everybody has etched into their mind. um and then be asked to participate in this kind of ritual every year.

So, I'm kind of sensitive about it.

I don't want to participate in it and I don't really want him to participate in it.

Even though he may be thankful, maybe he's thankful for a second chance.

You know, ultimately I have accepted him back, but I don't know.

I there's just something I'm sensitive about.

I don't want to participate in that anymore.

There's a lot there.

What's your reaction to that?

It makes me think of avoiding our triggers.

Um I've had car accidents and the first thing that happens when a person has like a traumatic experience is avoidance.

Like how do I never drive a car again?

Or how do I never drive past this place?

Or how do I never like all of these things to avoid this discomfort?

And I remember having a car accident once and being like, I'm never driving again.

And it lasted about 4 days.

And then I had to go to the store, [laughter] right?

It was like, I have to do this thing again.

Um I think sometimes what we're trying to avoid is that memory, right?

Like the car, the speech, the, you know, the point of the accident, whatever it is.

It's like, oh my gosh, if I can avoid this thing, I will just feel better about this completely horrible experience that I had.

And I think the real healing is once we can do the thing and notice that year after year, I feel better.

I feel more at ease.

Wow.

Now I can get in a car and I don't even think about that old accident.

Now I can I can hear him speak about gratitude and I believe it again

versus, oh no, he can't ever do that again because I'm triggered and I never want to think about what he did that year.

I I think this is an opportunity to practice sitting in that discomfort particularly because she chose to stay in the marriage.

This is a part of the forgiveness.

Wow.

So if if you're forgiving the act, this is a part of that.

And so if you can year after year, I'm not saying this year you're going to feel too good about it, right?

But if you could year after year allow him to participate, you will notice one year, please write me a letter about this, you will notice one year, I didn't even think about that.

That's that's how that's how it works when we actually practice when we actually get into the stuff instead of avoiding it.

That is so interesting.

And I so thought you would respond totally in the opposite way because this listener is saying, "I don't want to do this."

And I, you know, I assumed that you'd say, "Well, if you don't want to do it, then, you know, give yourself some space."

But I like what I'm hearing you saying.

It's like it could be really productive to go into this ritual to share your own gratitude and to witness, you know, your husband also being grateful to hold both as we were just talking about the sort of pain but also the gratitude and only in doing that will you be able to truly forgive.

But I was not expecting you to say that.

I really I appreciate that take.

Yeah, maybe her gratitude this year is I am grateful for being able to sit through this gratitude circle.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's the gratitude.

I sat through it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's that's that's something I didn't think I would be able to do.

I'm grateful I had the strength to listen to everybody talk and feel like, "Oh, he's coming.

Oh, he's he's about to he's about to say something."

I had the strength to tolerate my own discomfort.

What a magical moment that could be.

Yeah.

I wonder if there's a conversation too that you'd encourage Ila and her husband to have before they enter this Thanksgiving space so they can also sort of be in this together.

She has the opportunity to say something just to him, not in front of the family.

Yeah.

I you know, I was thinking about that.

I'm so happy you asked.

And I wonder if I mean you can't tell a person what to be grateful for.

But I wonder if this is an opportunity to say leave me out of your gratitude.

Like I don't even want to be included in your gratitudes anymore.

Yeah.

Like until I can learn to trust your word.

I you know be grateful for your new plant.

Be grateful for you know your job.

Be grateful that our neighbor helps you rake the leaves.

But do not include me in your gratitudes because my eyebrows will raise. [laughter]

Um, you know, I wish we had a million more questions because I am seeing, you know, shades of of myself, my own experiences, people I love's experiences.

Like even though again these examples are so specific, I think there are a lot of more widespread resonances and I really appreciate your tips.

I think they will really resonate.

So, thank you for those.

To sort of wrap us, if you were to assemble a kind of emotional toolkit for people ahead of, you know, Thanksgiving, what would be in that toolkit?

One, plan your holiday experience.

Plan these conversations.

Plan the things that you want to practice and do differently before the big day. M. Mhm.

Two, make an agreement with yourself to not go into this holiday the same way that you went into the last one.

Yeah.

And three, you get to curate your holiday experience.

If you're the host, you get to do things differently this year.

If you're going to someone's home, you have the opportunity to leave at a different time than you have in previous years.

Maybe you go on vacation for Thanksgiving.

Think about that.

Actually, I have a friend who just goes on a trip.

She's like the, you know, the hotels are cheap, whatever.

She's like not doing it at all.

It's cool.

Yeah.

So, you get to curate what this experience looks like.

And so, that's that's the gift in all of this, that you get the opportunity to do something different this year.

It's not last year.

And so, you know, I think you have to own your power in this experience and not give it over to other people and say like, "Oh my gosh, they need to do something differently this year.

They may not be listening to this podcast.

They may not be in therapy.

They may not even be open to any of these things that we talked about.

And so, we have to take our holidays into our own hands.

And we have to create the experience that we want to have and we have to know thyself.

And sometimes in that we have to choose to not be a part of it or to be a part of it differently.

[snorts]

You know, I'm thinking too at the beginning of our conversation, we talked about, you know, the patterns we fall into with our families, and I'm thinking of listeners, including certainly myself, who might be trying to break out of those patterns,

perhaps even for the first time.

I wonder what you'd say to people who are taking just that first step, that first step to make this Thanksgiving a little different.

What are some words of of hope or bravery or inspiration you have for them?

I love affirmations.

I love talking to yourself as a tool to motivate yourself.

I know it sounds super cheesy, but

I love it.

Go in the bathroom, give yourself a pep talk.

Maybe you write down the things you you say you're going to do, just like in quick little bites.

Maybe like a little list like uh change the topic when Uncle so and so brings up this thing.

Go for a walk in the morning.

like having a plan and sticking to it.

If you need an accountability partner, maybe that's another family member who's there, or maybe it's somebody who's away and you need to text and be like, "I did it.

I did it.

I said I would change the topic."

Or, "Hey, I said I would go for a walk today and I actually did it."

Find someone to support you in making these changes. M

um even if you know it's like, "Hey, I'm going to make a little list of all the things I did well to share with my therapist."

I love to hear those, right?

It's like it's like, "Hey, I have a little checklist for you.

I did this.

I did that.

I did this."

And two times, you know, it's like two times I said, "I'm going to get a drink because I'm done with this conversation."

I love that.

Celebrating the things that went well, celebrating the ways that you made a change.

I really like that.

[music] Nedra, I'm thankful for this conversation.

Thank you for coming on the show.

You're welcome.

Thanks for having me.

[music]

The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poant, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.

This episode was produced by Davis Land.

It was edited by Lin Levy and Jen Poant.

Our mix engineer was Afim Shapiro and we had studio support from Isaac Jones and Mattie Mariello.

Special thanks to Jansancy Dunn.

Original music in this episode by Alicia Beup, Rowan Neimto, and Dan Powell.

Dan also composed our theme music.

The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've always got those instructions in our show notes.

I'm Anna Martin.

Thanks for listening and happy Thanksgiving.

[music]