I actually got sent home from school because I knew suspiciously too much about the birds and the bees. It's true. Because [laughter] my mother was teaching Lamas classes at the time and Lama. Mhm. Uh-huh. and and they didn't have enough money to get a babysitter and so I was sort of go along with her and I earnestly believed at that young age that I had the very important role of teachers assistant. I did not think that this was just because we didn't have a babysitter. I thought I was absolutely needed. You're like mom has chosen me. Wait, how old were you when you started being teaching assistant at mom's lama's classes? Oh man, I had to be pretty young. probably six or seven cuz it was around it was around kindergarten. And I remember I literally had to choose between continuing to be the teaching assistant, which again I thought was totally a real job, and keeping on with Boy Scouts. [laughter] And guess what I chose? I'm going to take a wild guess and say continue to be the teaching assistant at Mom's Lama's classes. A million% [laughter] that's what I chose. And so if someone was there on their own for that week, I would play the partner and I would get on the ground next to them and I would breathe with them. It's sort of these um you know these he he he yeah please do it [sighs] you know and it's repetitive right and so it becomes like a mantra um and I you know there's physical touch so you would rub their back or um if they wanted sort of to hold their hand gently um you know so it was all these ways of practicing being being present for someone and caring and showing nurturing [snorts] did it make you want to have a family, a baby of your own one day? Well, that was never even a question. My family always had the assumption that we would have that that my sister and I would have kids. It wasn't an if, it was a when. And I think a lot of people that grow up in that type of environment might reject it, might be like, "No, it's like as a way to assert their individuality, might say, no, I'm not going to do that." But I just swam in it. I soaked it in. Um, and you know, I think it was also a way for me to express how different I was than the other boys. You know, I lived in a in a town where boys were pretty violent to me. I was I was bullied. I was pushed. I was spat on uh as sort of a a part of my daily existence. And um so being soft and being nurturing and wanting to have kids and wanting to care for them um to give, you know, that all of those lovely childhood experiences of of like gardening or sewing, you know, of of of playing a game of just that collective time spent, you know, and like I when I would go over to friends houses, their dads would not be present, but their moms would like cook food or they be curious about me. They would ask what classes I liked or what book I was enjoying reading. there was this intimacy. Um, I was able to be vulnerable. I was able to be my kind of nerdy weird self. And so I always was drawn much more much more to the mothers.

Yeah, I you know I I I was definitely a queer child, but I always was attracted to to women as well. So I just always assumed, you know, there there weren't soft men back home. There weren't gay people. And so I just always assumed I would be with a woman and be a very tender dad. I guess that my longing for motherhood or viewing myself as a mother was really just about that tenderness and I really wanted to be yeah to like to cook with them. My mom had this really old pasta machine and I just have these memories of coating every surface in flour and I loved making a mess but you know was not generally allowed to. So, it was like this time when you could roll these long sheets of pasta and coat everything in flour and it would be my mom and I in the kitchen. And that's what I wanted to do with my kid, you know. As you got older, Yeah. you moved out of your hometown, you went away to college and basically right away you meet your the person who will become your best friend. This woman who will become your best friend. Really, even more so than best friend, who will become your chosen family. Can you tell me about her? Yeah, I mean it starts slowly, you know, in the way that a lot of great friendships do where um you don't necessarily make plans to hang out, you know, it's sort of like you're walking down the hall and you're like, "Oh, are you getting dinner? I'm getting dinner." And then you get dinner together and then soon enough it was AIM [snorts] at the time. Yes. You know, and so you would you would aim them like, "Oh, go into the dining hall." And then you it's sort of it just it built slowly over time. She was a woman and [clears throat] I was a man and I hadn't yet come out as queer and she hadn't yet come out as queer. Everyone thought we were a couple and I just wanted to shake everyone and be like she's a lesbian. [laughter] She we were come, you know what I mean? It's like but but no one knew how to read us in that way that the only way you could read the type of intimacy between two people was like that they were dating or that they had a crush on one another. And it was like obviously no we just like obviously life going to be life partners but not in a romantic way. And I might be just jumping ahead but it was like early in this friendship that we started joking about having a kid together. Do you remember the first time it came up? I it happened so frequently that like the first it's like what what you know when the first time you ever saw a raindrop like it was just like [laughter] you know it was just so it was so like constant. I Right. Right. you know, um, and I I think a lot of platonic best friends joke about getting married if they're both alone at a certain age, you know, and that's a very if we're both single at 40, we're going to get married. I I've totally done that, too. But for whatever reason, this best friend and I always joked about having a kid together. It was not we'll get married. It was we'll have a baby. It was 2006 or whatever, 2005, 2004, and the our year was 2020 because it felt like so far off. I mean, I I I really do the sort of joking if we're both single, we'll get married. I've absolutely done that. Like, yes, yes, yes. And even actually, I remember in with my high school friends, we had this sort of dream of like collectively having a baby. So, I guess my question is like it came up, you started saying this. Was it a joke? Like what was the what was the emotional undercurrent of this? So it it did start feeling purely like a joke or or as a way of saying I do want to build a life with you. Like that's what we were really saying because a a baby is even more permanent than a marriage, you know? And so it was really a way to say this is a commitment even almost beyond love. I'm in it with you. I'm in it with you. Like at the end of every hangout it'd be like 2020 having a baby. See you tomorrow. And all your friends were like just say goodbye. You know, like stop this nonsense. We would [laughter] just absolutely not stop the nonsense like the the the nature of our friendship was absolutely never stopping nonsense. Nonsense forever when you talk about this baby that you would have with your best friend. Did this baby have a name? Yeah, I mean we so so this my best friend came to visit me in my hometown and my dad was regailing her with fish facts as as we do in the Pacific Northwest. you know, it's sort of very important animal uh to to the the region um the Pacific salmon. So, we just started calling her our little baby fish fry. And so, a fry is a a life cycle stage in the salmon life. It goes like an from an egg to an Alvin's to a fry to a smalt to a par to an adult. So, I'm not going to keep that in my brain because that's [laughter] There will there will be a quiz later. So, it's a baby salmon. It's a baby salmon is is a fry. Mhm. Adorable. And so this baby you were going to started calling her Fry. Baby Fry. Baby Fry. When you graduated, like you'd said it was hypothetical. How did that How did that hypothetical baby, how did that baby fare after graduation? Would you still talk about Baby Fry? Wow. At the end of every hangout, it was 2020 Baby Fry. Um, and we would talk about it would be it became more real slowly.

It became it it became more real slowly as I was not in the traditional partnership that I thought I would be in. And so it it became more reasonable, more possible that we were the people who were, you know, through all those boyfriends, through all those bad dates. Who would I call at the end of it? But my best friend. Yeah. And I don't have an expiration date on my fertility, right? And my best friend did. And so at about and I noticed this with a lot of my friends, women, at about 33 to 35, it starts becoming a really pressing question. And that's that's the wall that she she hit at that time. And so she was just like, we if we're going to do this, it it's time. It's time to do this. Do you remember like a conversation where she came to you with this urgency that you're outlining and she said, "It's time to really do this." Can you can you bring me into that moment? It wasn't yet urgency. It was just it was just I'm not joking and what do you think? And you know um I was a post-doal researcher at the time making $4ome,000 a year here in New York City and I had this teeny tiny little apartment that was subsidized by the university I was working at and I was standing in the little entryway and we were we were hanging out like we always do and at the end of the hangout it was like Friday 2020 and I think this was 2018 or 2017. So, we are 2020 is no longer theoretical. It is a year in the future, not that far in the future. And she just said, "Okay, but I'm not joking anymore." And how do you feel about the this conversation actually becoming real and intentional? Huh. And and how did you feel? I lost it. I just lost it. In a good way or a bad way? Uh [clears throat] it good is not even a good enough word. It was just like something unlocked in me that was like um I I think one of the things I learned through this whole process is sometimes you don't know how bad you want something until it starts happening. And so I was just I was immediately like I wanted to shout like yeah like yes yes yes like really like but then I was like no but then that'll be a turnish. She'll get scared and she will want to have a kid with me. [laughter] Yes. Like you're like clicking my heels in the air like so I I um Yeah. I was immediately like this is I want this very badly and you know she she had just started dating a woman who ended up becoming her partner not that much longer before this. And they were both in their mid-30s. So they had already they had started having these conversations about do you want kids? But I loved the idea of having a kid with not just two people because I had I had seen enough people parent with just two and I know it's it is really rough. And so I just love this idea of having more than two parents and having time where you could have a night on your own for quiet or for having drinks out, but but still be as much of parent as in a sort of more quote unquote traditional situation. It's so sweet to me cuz your brain's already going to Yes. And it's going to be amazing to have more than one parent and and and you don't scream yes, but you do say what do you say in actuality back to I was like yes, absolutely. But I said, "I have to talk to to to my boyfriend at the time, right?" Because I was dating someone we lived together. And again, I was like so financially precarious, even though I had already finished my PhD and was working full-time as a researcher at a major university, but those positions are low paid. So, I could not afford my life without living with that partner at the time. So, I it wasn't my decision to make a loan. And so, tell me about that conversation. How did you bring it up to him? Yeah, we were, you know, he has a glass of wine. We're sitting on the couch and I was like, "Oh, you know, I I saw my best friend and she joked about having a kids, but I think it might not be a joke anymore. I think she wants to do it." And he was like, "What?" And I was like, "Yeah, you know, like how would you feel about co-parenting with them?" Okay. And he just said he was like, "That's weird." Okay, that was the answer. I'm not doing that. That's weird. Wow. H how did that hit you? [snorts] It was a It was It was like a little death. like it was just you know this was in a period of like 4 hours right I'm like la the day is just a normal Tuesday or whatever and then I'm like so overjoyed um at this possibility at this utopic possibility of actually being able to make a kid in this amazing way and then my boyfriend just says no [snorts] and I couldn't imagine life without him I couldn't imagine life without him not just because I loved him very deeply and I loved our life together, but I literally could not afford to live without him. Huh. So, where does that leave you in terms of in terms of baby Fry? You know, it left me in this place where I think I was subconsciously blaming my not being a parent on him, but I was making that choice. I could have said, "I want to have a kid with my best friend so much." A lot of couples break up around wanting or not wanting to have kids. Yeah. Yeah. This is a big I mean this is an existential as you've noted decision. Yeah. So you could have pushed back. Yeah. I could have I could have just said it's a dealbreaker for me. I'm I'm going to have a kid with my best friend. I love her. Um but ultimately I didn't I wasn't brave enough. And I really you know you mentioned that like I love little Joe in the Lama's class and I do too. Like I look back on so many versions of myself as a younger person and I'm so proud of who he was and how he was himself even when that self was, you know, a little affeminite boy in a logging town who got the crap beat out of him. But I'm proud that that little kid was like that and was brave and was strong. And I at that time was not brave and I was not strong. I made what I think now was a cowardly decision to sort of You think you're being so hard on yourself? I mean, I think it cuz to me I mean, I hear what you're saying and I and but it also sounds like you loved this boyfriend so deeply and you I mean you're faced with kind of an impossible do I make this real with my best friend, this dream we've had now for over a decade, over a decade. Or or this person who's the love of my life. Like that was where you thought your future was headed. thought being the operative word I will just say because that relationship that didn't last right it didn't so um maybe a year after that um he made the choice to move to London for a gig that he had booked um and so he just he walked out of our many year long relationship um and it was it was when he ultimately did leave about maybe 3 or 4 weeks after booking the gig and deciding to move um my best friend was the only person in the neighborhood and she came right to to my apartment and I was sitting there catatonic like I think I was too the grief or the shock it wasn't even grief yet it was just shock I was too much in shock to even cry and I just remember saying well at least at least we can have fry now and she just said yeah we sure

It's very powerful to me that this idea of this baby in basically the moment of breakup was so present for you. Like how did you and your best friends really start putting that plan into action? Yeah, I mean it wasn't long after that that we started weekly meetings, sometimes more often. Um, so yeah, I mean we, you know, I was sort of moving through my grief metabolizing, processing, um, spending a lot of time in a very dark room covered with lots and lots of blankets. Um, thinking about but ultimately not adopting a dog. Like I was, you know, I was like planning on running a marathon but never did it. You know, I would classic breakup stuff. Oh, like sh like full Britney 2006, you know. Uh so, but it was it was within a year we really started um talking and and it was first we would we would meet weekly and just talk about what we wanted. What what do what does our family look like? Um you know, do do we want to adopt? Do we want to do IVF? Do we want a turkey baster? Like what there are all these different options. We had a lot of queer friends who were doing different things with different people. you know, what legal structures do we need to all all be protected, you know, and [clears throat] and it was ultimately just about it initially just started talking about what what was essential for all of us, right? And so I obviously am going to be a non-justational parent. My best friend does not want to be pregnant. Um her partner is agnostic, kind of wants to. Um, you know, in all of these conversations, we all had very complex feelings about adoption and IVF. Um, you know, using a surrogate, like there's no thing that is like you just feel like, oh, that's totally ethically awesome, you know? Totally. And and so where did you where did you land as you were having these meetings, which by the way, I will just note maybe some, you know, I'm thinking about my parents. They're they're a straight couple. I am positive they did not have meeting after meeting after meeting discussing these things and if they did you know they can let me know when they hear this episode but [laughter] this to me feels um unique for sure. Yeah. So, you know, we the our intention with this was that we knew that we would be in conflict when parenting and so this was almost about building the muscle memory, building the practice of having these hard conversations before there's a living child. um who is going to have to deal with our [ __ ] you know, our own like are we avoidant? And so it was like we were just practicing being non-avvoidant with each other, you know. Um so, you know, I can remember, you know, I was happy. I did not need to be the biod. If we were adopting, whatever, if they were going to do whatever, I I was just like happy to be a parent. Sure. Um, and you know, my my best friend is is a woman of color, and so it was really important for her to and her partner is white, so it was really important for her to not have a a white baby, to have a baby that reflected her own ethnicity, you know, in a way that so that she could share that with with the child and so that she would not have this horrific experience of being around with a white child and not being perceived as being the parent. And that was like one of her deal breakers that she didn't want to be um you know co-parenting with two white parents with a white child. That that would just be too overwhelming for her and her experience of the one time she gets to be a parent in her life. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean in terms of the other sort of almost like logistics of it. Did you land on stuff like where would the baby live for example? Did you talk about that? Yeah, we I mean oh my goodness did we talk about that, right? Like, you know, I think our ideal goal was like a full 50/50 where I would we would pick an apartment building together and get apartments in the same building. And um you know, the kid could go back and forth between them and we would all be present for family dinner every night. And that was that was the dream. And it, you know, with real intention like we all kind of wanted our family to look like that. Yeah. I mean, God, but it sounds like a dream to live in the same building as your friend and her partner and have Fry sort of run up or down the stairs when they're able to walk. I mean, it's just to to have family dinner to I mean, it's it's a utopia. I mean, you used that word before, but it's it's a beautiful vision of the future. I'm going to ask too, just because you were meeting so much, I feel like you might have hashed this out, too. Like, can I ask you like in these many meetings, did the three of you disagree on anything? Was there anything that was sort of a friction point? It definitely brought up It brought up difficult Nothing makes you consider your own childhood and your own relationship to your parents and the traumas of how you were or were not treated in the ways that you wanted as a kid like having kids yourself [gasps] or thinking I mean you hadn't had Yes. Yeah. But the process but the process that intentional of sitting around like so yeah you know I I'll just speak for myself you know I um I have a a lot of abandonment issues and so we would have a whole meeting to just talk about our fears. It was my my best friend's partner's idea and you know to bring up those deepest darkest fears that we were afraid of talking about. And so we we were trying to practice doing that with each other, you know, and my fear of just it all going away. I just spoke about like I'm afraid of turning my back and all of this is just not going to be real anymore.

So the three of you had been talking through the many logistics of having a kid, talking out your fears. Can you tell me when you decided how you were going to make this baby? Yeah. So, you know, it was a Sunday and we pretty much met every Sunday at that point. And, you know, we're lying on a blanket in in the park and um they, you know, I think my my best friend's partner says, well, do you want to ask him? And um and they just said, you know, would you want to be this the sperm donor? And I I definitely had to like that had not been on the menu. I was going to say it had not it just had not been something we'd ever talked about. It it's interesting to me that this had not been on the menu because the three of you of the three of you, you are the one who can make sperm, right? So, you hadn't this hadn't been an option, you donating sperm beforehand. I think I didn't let myself think about it. I I think I didn't I didn't bring it up. I I was very differential and like [clears throat] because I didn't you know it's like they're sort of they are have a lot more financial security than me or at least enough that they can invest in IVF if they need to and they're sort of doing a lot of those logistical things they obviously one of them is going to carry the baby one of them is going to carry so I do not want to overstep you know like what what happened ultimately was I only let myself want it when I felt like I could have I couldn't admit to myself that I wanted to be the biological father of the child. I could not because if I wanted it and I and that wasn't the orientation that we ended up going with, I didn't want to feel disappointed. You didn't want to feel in my own path to parenthood. And so I think I didn't bring it up to myself even. I didn't even interrogate [clears throat] myself about do you want to be the biod because I just felt lucky to be there. I felt lucky to be a dad at all. Um but then in this moment blanket on that blanket they they asked me and the idea was that um so I would be the sperm donor and my best friend would donate the egg and her partner would carry the baby. You were donating the sperm, your best friend was donating the egg and then the best friend's partner was carrying the baby. Exactly. So it would somehow like magically biologically, you know, I'm immediately thinking like a biologist, right? where I'm like, well, you might think that my [clears throat] best friend's partner doesn't have a biological tie to the child because of the genetics, but that's not true because the the hormonal environment in the womb has a huge biological impact on the child. All three of you are involved in these in these physical to use a lay person's term ways, right? Like it's your best friend providing the egg, you providing the sperm. So then the identity piece that it sounds like was so important to your best friend um being the baby being of color that will happen. Then her partner will carry the child. So all three of you are involved. It felt Yeah. I mean it felt like it unlocked in something that I couldn't admit to myself that I wanted that that this type of relationship to the kid and that and I think if my fear was feeling like poof it could all go away. Well, if I'm the kid's biod, that is a tie that makes it harder for it to poof all go away, you know? And I think this is one of the things about parenthood that we want so bad and maybe why we want kids so bad is like if I have a kid, that's a relationship that can never poof go away. Like that that I'm going to be that kid's parent for forever, you know? And but I think that ultimately [snorts] is almost like a myth as well because as a parent you might want to hang on to different versions of your kid but ultimately you have to let them go as well and become their their own self. And so there's this tension, this pushpull between that desire to be needed, to be wanted, um to have that tie that cannot break, that intimacy, that connection that is indelible, that is just as as solid as the ground underneath us, another person in another person. And and I I think that being the biod made me feel like I would have that type of connection with our kid. It felt permanent. It felt permanent.

Stay with us. after all this planning. Mhm. The process begins. Oh, it does. When you actually start trying for this baby, what does that look like for the three of you? Yeah. You know, so in IVF, it was it was my job first. Like I am in doctor's offices. I am jerking off into a cup, you know, in a really brightly lit doctor's office in a tiny little room that has a toilet in it for some reason that I still do not understand. I had to give one sample that was just to check genetics and then another to go a freeze test and then another. My best friend is coming with me to all the appointments. We are still meeting all the time. Okay. And then like I come out of the room and I like give her a high five and she's like and then she like looks at her hand and she's like ah. And I'm like no [laughter] no no. I jerk off with my left and then it's and I wash I I washed my hands and then you know so we were all my best friend really wanted to be involved. Yeah. In my in my part of the IVF process and she was she was there all the time and it was just after that After I donated the sample and the sample got cleared, everything went quiet. Communication between you and your best friend and her. Okay. The the the the fish fry group chat. Literally our phones has this like fry group chat and it it's just quiet. [snorts] How does that make you feel? What do you think is happening? I'm just like, you know, my mind is going a mile a minute. I'm a very anxious person. Uh, and I'm just thinking about all of it, you know, they are like, well, because they're going to be pregnant soon and so they're doing a lot of travel uh to sort of get as much travel in as as possible before they can do the implantations. They're sort of ramping up to do this. You know, sperm donation is kind of humiliating, but the the the injections and stuff for extraction and implantation are really tough on your body. And so I'm just I'm sort of trying empathizing like they're just really, you know, gearing up to do what is like my work is done. And so, you know, they're and they're taking space and it's totally fine for them to take space. You know, I was in therapy for a lot of years learning that just cuz someone is taking space doesn't mean that like happening, right? Does not mean that the worst thing is happening. Uhhuh. And when did they get back in touch? It was maybe um a couple months later. I was really, you know, trying to stop myself from fearing some massive shift. Um and then I get a text, you know, on the on the group chat that just said we should talk. What do they say to you? It was just that my best friend's partner wanted to be the egg donor. Okay. And that meant that if I were the sperm donor, the two of us are white. And so our our our kid would be white. Again, I think, you know, my best friend wanted to have a a baby who's a person of color because she gets to be a parent once. That is that that is her parenthood experience. And her partner gets to be a parent once and they didn't know if they were ever going to have another kid. And she wanted to be the biom. [snorts] So, when your best friend's partner says, "I want to be the egg donor," you put these pieces together, that that means what for you? That means that I'm not going to be the sperm donor. And I think that's where bargaining came in. And I immediately started saying, "Well, I never needed to be the biod." But what ultimately happened was they al, you know, they didn't want to use a sperm bank either. So, we had spent so many years discussing all this that like I already knew the math. You knew the math. What does that mean? If they if you weren't going to be the sperm donor and they didn't want to use a sperm bank, then what what did they tell you was the plan, the next step for them? They were talking to another friend and they had already begun talking to that that friend about sperm donation. And so I was outside of this process that I had been not outside of ever. But oh my god, I mean this is everything was coming together. these things you hadn't even allowed yourself to hope for being a biod happening. Then there's silence and then they tell you basically that this is they're moving forward not just not with your sperm but with a different donor who it sounds like you even know and I'm not even talking about that other donor. That's really not where I want to put the focus. I'm just saying like this arrangement god I mean that must have been devastating. How did you What was the emotional response for you?

I at first was just trying so hard to not put pressure. I was just holding back because I didn't want to feel manipulative. I didn't want to say, "You guys, we've been doing this for so long and I want this so bad." Like I said on that conversation that this is like a space shuttle launch where like we all have to put our keys in and turn them like we are. Yeah. Like we're if if anyone does not feel enthusiastically like they can turn their key on having a kid in this way, we can't do it. [gasps] Oh, I feel like if I were in your position, I'm a much more selfish person and I would just be devastated. I'd be like, the ugliest part of me would be like, "What do you mean?" I mean, I love you, but this is me again. The ugliest part of myself, we've been talking about this since we were 18, you know, like not me being the biod, but my gosh, I mean, was there some ugly part of you that was like screaming and crying and and throwing a fit? Not for a long time. Um, and I think that that part did ultimately need to come out, but it goes all the way back to my childhood and and how the only emotion men were allowed was anger. And I did not ever want to be that. And I also I felt like I was talking to myself. Like her experience of not being the biom mirrored my experience of getting to be the bio dad. And I could not be angry. I could I I understood her because you got it. Yeah, I got it. Did any part of you think that some part of this plan could be saved? Like even if they went with a different sperm donor, maybe you could be involved in the kid's life in some way like was any part of this plan you'd work so hard on salvageable? Oh, they they had to, you know, I became it's not that I wasn't involved. It's just that there was a fourth person involved. Sure. And you know, if if if three is company, four is a crowd. And my needs were, you know, [clears throat] not as important as his to figure out if he wanted to be involved as a parent, right? Uh and so, you know, ultimately was and that was one of the hard things to navigate cuz I was still I did still want to still be a co-parent. Yeah. [clears throat] Um but it's so much more complicated now though. Exactly. It's so much more complicated. And you know, I think they then had to go figure out a lot of stuff that they did have to figure out on their own that I was not key to those decisions about their new sperm donor and what role he was going to play. Um, and we all I think were just all of those conversations that we had had to practice talking about the hard thing. Um, [clears throat] we tried, you know, and and um and it wasn't enough. Uh, it was like like a bubble that popped and then but I had nothing to hold in my hands. I, you know, I had no um I had no road map for even the type of grief that I was feeling cuz most, you know, I don't know how most other people feel about almost having a kid. And and in part because most people don't talk about that. Like most stories about wanting a kid end with having a kid and I was just like but I have nothing. I just I have nothing to hold on to in this whole experience of loss. Well, I mean yeah, you're articulating something very true and and very tricky because you know when we hear stories about someone I mean infertility for example is a is absolutely something people have to people struggle with. People aren't able to have kids in the way they want to have kids for so many reasons. But because the three of you, you, your best friend, her partner were sort of charting this, you know, this this non-traditional, non-nuclear family structure. You know, there was no road map for that family. You were building it, but then also, as you say, there was no road map for the loss. This grief was probably even difficult to share with with other people to get them to understand. Yeah. Were you there for the birth of your best friend and her partnership? No. Um I I was actually traveling for work when they when they had their kid and um it was really hard for me to to go visit them after the birth. It took many months and that was really painful for them. Um you know and um it is it I mean I just want to be really clear like you are not a co-parent to this child.

No. Right. No, you are not involved in this child's life in the way that you know those meetings you you'd planned. This is not Fry. This is not the baby you and your best friend had talked about at 18. This is a different baby. This is a different baby. Yep. Uh and so it took a long time. I And I think all those feelings that I wouldn't let come out were stopping me from the genuine joy of being an uncle. You know, I think grief, one of the funny things that grief did is, and it did steal that joy. It did steal the joy of being able to be present for my friends uh and experience this huge life transition that they had. I I would like get up and be like, I'm going to see them and they're I physically could not do it. Do you still want to be a parent? I'll never move on from wanting to be a parent. Not ever. You know, like I I think one thing that Americans are really bad at dealing with is that life is inherently melancholy. [laughter] That that Americans are bad. Like the French people, they've really got it. Yeah. French French people understand on wei, man. You know what I mean? It's like you you get one life and and you get to be a parent or you don't. And both of those are really hard, you know? And um I'm just in a place of accepting that I'm a person who's always wanted to be a parent who probably never will be. And that doesn't mean that I can't nurture and nourish young people. And a couple of my best friends have kids. And [clears throat] it's really important for me to be an adult who listens to them and who shows up for them and who cooks for them. You know, I've I I've made pasta dough with my other best friend's kid. You know, I've had that. Ask that. I've had that moment, you know, and it was, you know, she she loved the feeling of the dough so much she hugged it and I have a picture of her hugging the pasta dough. It was more joy than my body could handle. And um, you know, and so being there, being a parent is so isolating socially also and so trying my best to show up for other for the parents in my life. So, you know, it's not just about the kids. It's also like, can you make parenthood a little less lonely for the parents in your life? I've I've started to view that as a a role that I can play that's really important to me. Yeah. I mean, it strike it strikes me that you had this very specific idea of what it meant to be a parent when you were younger. And at this stage, you know, you've really sort of expanded maybe not your notion of being a parent, but this idea of care and nurturing that was always that was your deep desire, right, as a kid. And you are doing that, but in a very different way than you imagined. But you said something that I think will will resonate with a lot of with a lot of people, which is I I you said, "I'm a person who will always want to be a parent who won't be a parent." What did you say? I pro. Yeah. I I've I've always wanted to be a parent and I will always want to be a parent and I probably won't be. And that's that is the material truth of my life. And there in the time where I was so desperate to undo the loss of of the time that I thought I was going to be a parent, I couldn't accept that. I couldn't accept how [ __ ] sad that made me. [gasps] And now I'm in a place where I can accept it. Your relationship to your best friend, you two. What is it like now? Yeah, we are. I mean, I personally was never my fear was never losing her. Not ever. I just felt like we had been through so much. Like we we had Yeah. We were life partners to me. We we were and we and that for that hasn't changed. I mean we have there's been a lot of repair that has been necessary and I think there I think that is going to be a life another lifelong journey. We're still very close and I think we're going to spend our life um nurturing one another and still being more present for one another and and the families that we each build. I'm so happy to hear that. I mean, throughout this conversation, I'm I'm I'm thinking that there are so many ways to make a family. Um, and every single one of them is so hard. Is that hard? Is that the take away from all this? It's like any rapper you chooses is just like it's hard. It's like [ __ ] impossible. It is. It is unbelievable how you Yeah. No, it's just and it's so emotionally fraught because it brings up so much stuff from our childhood, our family. Everyone has trauma. I am getting so stressed. You know what we have to do to end this interview? [snorts] We have to do the Lama's breathing. [laughter] I mean, clearly it's the only way out. Okay. All this family talk. Everything's stressful. Okay, I'm going to do it with you. Lead me through it. It's a We'll do a he he he who. Okay. Ready? He he he [sighs and gasps] [laughter] I want to do it one more time cuz I think I kind of messed up the heat. Okay. Ready? Okay. [sighs and gasps] [snorts] One more time. [snorts] [sighs] I feel calmer. I actually feel better. I legitimately do. Yeah. Joe, we got to end on a high note. [laughter] Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been a delight. Thank you a lot. [music] [music] [music] [music] The modern love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg. It was edited by Lynn Levy and [music] Davis Land. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia Beetup, Marian Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. [music] Dan also composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love [music] Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.