《纽约时报》书评访谈：加纳评《失踪者》与约翰·格林谈文学创作

我是 MJ·富兰克林（MJ Franklin），这是《纽约时报》书评节目。今天我们为您带来两场访谈。最近，我和畅销书作家约翰·格林（John Green）坐下来聊了聊。他以青少年小说闻名，但如今推出了自己的首部成人小说。我很高兴能和大家分享我们这场广泛的对话，内容涉及写作、名声以及在他年轻时留下深刻印象的书籍。稍后就会播出。首先，德怀特·加纳（Dwight Garner）是《纽约时报》的资深专职书评人。最近，他评论了马龙·詹姆斯（Marlon James）的新小说《失踪者》（The Disappears），提前剧透一下，他非常喜欢这本书。他称其为——引述——“一部杰作，是近十年、甚至可能是本世纪迄今为止最优秀的小说。”这是来自一位经受住时间考验的资深评论家的高度赞誉。所以今天，我想把德怀特请进演播室，稍微窥探一下幕后的故事。我想和他聊聊这是一本怎样的书、是什么让它如此出色，以及更广泛地探讨一下，在当下写评论是一种怎样的体验。

英文原文

I'm MJ Franklin and this is the book review from the New York Times. Today we have two interviews for you. I recently sat down with the bestselling author John Green. He's known for his young adult novels, but now he is out with his first work of fiction for adults. I'm excited to share our wide-ranging conversation about writing fame and the books that made an impression on him when he was young. That's coming up in a bit. First, Dwight Garner is a longtime staff book critic at the New York Times. Recently, he reviewed Marlon James' new novel, The Disappears, and spoiler alert, he loved it. He called it, quote, [music] "A masterpiece, the novel of the decade and possibly of the century thus far." That's high praise from a tried andrue critic. So, today, I wanted to bring Dwight into the studio and peak behind the curtain a little bit. I wanted to chat with him about what this book is, what makes it so good, and more broadly, what's it like to write criticism today.

对话德怀特·加纳：盛赞之评与幕后心路

德怀特，感谢你加入我们。见到你真好，MJ。我也很高兴见到你。哇，这篇书评在很多方面都是极尽溢美之词。我觉得这是我看过你写的最积极的一篇书评了。《纽约》杂志有个很棒的图书新闻通讯叫《图书八卦》（Book Gossip），它指出这篇书评似乎切实推动了图书销量和文化影响力，其程度在如今的书评中已经很少见了。所以在这一层面上，它是无与伦比的。你说这本书极其震撼，但这篇书评本身也同样震撼。你现在感觉如何？

英文原文

>> Dwight, thank you for joining us. It's great to see you, MJ. Nice to see you, too. And wow, this review, it is superlative in so many ways. I think it's the most positive review of yours I've seen. New York magazine has this great books newsletter called Book Gossip which pointed out that this review seems to have concretely moved the needle in terms of book sales and cultural impact in ways that few reviews do anymore. So, it's superlative in that way. You say the book is a banger, but so is this review. How are you feeling?

好的，谢谢你 MJ，我很感激。你知道，这种书评对于一个评论家来说——至少对我而言——整个职业生涯可能只能写出一次。我是说，我从来没写过这样的书评。但话又说回来，我也从未有机会评论一本像这样的书，你知道的，所以你心里所有那些积压已久的情绪就那样涌现出来了。我是说，这是一本大部头，我又回头把前一本书重读了一遍。所以，光是加起来就大概有 1200 页了。因此读它花了很长时间，之后我在房间里来回踱步了好几天，因为我有点害怕把我心里想写的东西写出来，原因有二：第一，你这么做有点像在走钢丝；第二，我也担心会给马龙·詹姆斯增添压力。在背负着这种评价的重压之下，写作肯定会变得更难。而且，得到这样的评价可能还会引来某种文坛的嫉妒。但归根结底，我不是为作家写作，我是为读者写作。

英文原文

Well, thank you MJ. I appreciate that. You know, it's the kind of review that a critic, at least me, only gets to write once in a career. I mean, I've never written a review like that. But then again, I haven't been able to review a book like this, you know, and so you have all these pent up feelings that sort of emerged. I mean, it's a long book and I went back and reread the previous book. So, you know, that's about 1,200 pages right there. So, it took a long time to read and then I sort of paced around the room for a couple of days because I I sort of was scared to write what I felt like writing um for two reasons. one, you're sort of walking out on a wire a little bit. And I was worried I was worried too about sort of adding pressure to Maron James. It's got to be harder to write with that sort of bearing down on you. And I it's probably some literary envy that comes with having things like that said about you. But in the end, I don't write for writers. I write for readers.

而且，这可以说是我人生中罕见的一次阅读体验。我只是觉得，是时候站出来把它讲清楚了。

英文原文

>> And um this is just uh this is one of the rare reading experiences of my life. And I just felt like it was time to come out and say it.

是的。你说你的职业生涯中只能写出一次这种类型的书评，你这是什么意思？

英文原文

>> Yeah. You said you only get to write one of these types of reviews in your career. What do you mean by that?

嗯，我想你也许能写出两三次。我是说，我认为宝琳·凯尔（Pauline Kael）大概做到过，但我就是……你知道，我喜欢过很多书，我不是个挑刺的人。我倾向于在书里寻找自己喜欢的地方，因为，你知道的，我热爱阅读，但在此之前，我在为《纽约时报》受命评论小说时从未有过这样的体验。在某种程度上——我忘了是谁说的，可能是纳博科夫——归根结底，你要凭后颈发凉、汗毛直竖的感觉来判断。这是一本开篇缓慢的书。你知道，很多人读了 75 页后就会把它搁下。我为他们的损失感到遗憾。而且你知道，书中有几次你会觉得节奏开始有些放缓了，然后突然间，作为读者，你简直不敢相信自己又被拉回了这种旋涡之中。接着这种情况一次、一次又一次地发生，强度不断攀升。这真是一种难得的体验，我很庆幸自己能读到这本书。在某种程度上，我很庆幸自己能在文化界的其他人读到它之前读完，并且能够把我所能说的话说出来。

英文原文

>> Well, I suppose you could have two or three. I mean, I think Pauline Kale probably did, but I just, you know, I've liked a lot of books. I'm not a hater. I tend to look for things to like in a book cuz, you know, I like to read, but I haven't had a experience like this before reading a novel that I was assigned to review for the New York Times. And on some level, I forget who said it. It may have been Nabacov. In the end, you go by the prickle on the back of the neck. This is one of those books that it starts slowly. You know, a lot of people are going to put this away after 75 pages. I fear their loss. And you know, there are some times in the book where you feel like it's starting to slacken a little bit and then suddenly you can't believe that you're back in this maelstrom again as as a reader. And then this happens again and again and again and it keeps ratcheting up. And it's just one of those experiences that I'm just glad that I was able to read that book. I was glad that I got to read it before the rest of the culture did in some ways and um be able to say what I was able to say.

你能给我们概括一下概要吗？《失踪者》讲了什么？这本书是关于什么的？这位作者马龙·詹姆斯又是谁？

英文原文

>> Can you give us a topline? What is the disappearance? What is this book about? And who is this author? Marlon James.

好的。马龙·詹姆斯是一位现居美国的牙买加作家。他写过四五本小说，其中最著名的是《七杀简史》（A Brief History of Seven Killings），众所周知，这本书实至名归地赢得了布克奖，那是一部非常严肃的小说，也是一部极其出色的小说。我认为《失踪者》超越了那本书。最简单地说，它是关于八九十年代牙买加的几个年轻男同性恋的故事，他们大多数都在牙买加，当时的恐同情绪高涨且致命。他们聚在一起排演一部话剧，那是一部地下私密排演的加拿大戏剧，讲述的是监狱里的男人们。其中涉及强奸，也涉及性行为，包括自愿的和非自愿的。一天晚上他们正在排练时，一群暴徒闯了进来，基本上就是把他们往死里打。我是说，甚至更糟。眼珠被挖出，牙齿被打落四散。那真是骇人听闻。而在当时那个时期的牙买加，袭击者和暴徒在媒体上以及被其他人当成英雄对待。所以马龙·詹姆斯正在探讨这些。他是 X 世代，那就是他成长的年代。艾滋病当时刚刚露出苗头，或者说刚刚首次传入那里。于是在这次袭击之后，我们跟随这些年轻人——其中有些人年纪稍微大一点——在时间的长河中穿梭回溯与前行。有时跨越几十年，有时退回一二十年。许多声音在诉说。我在书评中承认，有那么一两次我在这些声音中有些迷失了，分不清是谁在说话。但这没关系。这几乎就是作为一个严肃读者的一部分，这种情况很自然会发生。我也稍微遇到了一点。这并不要紧。詹姆斯就是有这种能力，能够从不同的角度一次又一次地反复冲击他的核心主题。你简直无法相信对于他关心的事物，他竟然还有那么多话要说，因为你会以为：“哦，他已经把这种关于吸引力、排斥感以及性取向的观念阐述得淋漓尽致了，还有关于音乐、文化，以及这些东西对他的角色意味着什么。”你会觉得，好吧，不管是对那个时期西雅图传出的音乐，还是漫步在繁华都市的街道上，他已经表达过了，可下一次他偏偏写得更好。

英文原文

>> Yeah. Well, Marlon James is a Jamaican writer who now lives in America. He's written four or five novels. The best note of which is um brief history of seven killings and which which is you know won the Booker Prize deservedly and it's a very serious novel and it's a it's an excellent novel. I think that The Superior surpasses that book. Put most simply, it's about a handful of young gay men, most of them in Jamaica in the 80s and 90s where homophobia was vibrant in killing. And they meet to put on a play, a sort of under the radar underground production of a Canadian play about men in prison. It involves, you know, rape and it involves sex acts, both desired and undesired. And while they are rehearsing one night, a group of vandals breaks in and basically just kicks the hell out of them. I mean, worse. Eyes are gouged out, teeth are scattered. It's just, you know, a horrible. And Jamaica being Jamaica as it was during this period, the the attackers, the marauders are treated like heroes in the media and by other people. And so Maron James is exploring. He's he's Gen X. This was the period he grew up in. AIDS was just on the horizon or just there just arriving for the first time. And so after this attack, we follow these young men, some of them are a bit older, backwards and forwards in time. Sometimes several decades, sometimes a decade or two back. And many voices speak. I admit in my review that once or twice I got a bit lost in the voices. I wasn't sure who was talking. It doesn't matter. It's almost part of being a serious reader that just happens. It happened to me a little bit. It doesn't matter. James just has this ability to attack his core themes again and again and again from different angles. you just can't believe he has more to say about the things he cares about because you think, "Oh, he's blown through this notion of um terms of attraction and repulsion and sexuality and about music and culture and what these things mean to his characters and you feel like, okay, he's said this thing already about whatever it is about the music out from out of Seattle in this period or walking the streets of an urban city and then he just does it better the next time."

我很好奇你是怎么接触到这本书的，因为作为我们的评论家之一，你拥有很大的自主权。不同于我们大多数评论家（我们的特约撰稿人通常是由编辑指派书评任务），你是最先提出认领的。最初是什么让你被这本书吸引的？

英文原文

Um, I'm curious to know how you came to the book because as one of our critics, you have a lot of autonomy. Rather than typically being assigned a review like most of our reviewers, our freelance reviewers are, you claim Dibs first. Um, what made you gravitate toward this book in the first place?

问得好。你知道，他的上一部小说，或者说《七杀简史》，距今已经超过 10 年了。我以前从未真正认真读过他的作品。无论出于什么原因，以前他的书都是由其他评论家评的。我意识到自己真的很想了解他是怎样的一位作家。所以我就借这个机会回头把他写过的几乎所有作品都读了一遍。我很幸运，我很幸运能够放眼文坛并挑选出我想评论的书。我注意到了马龙。认领写一本厚重的大书总是让人有点紧张，在这个意义上，你知道，接下一部大书就等同于接下一个庞大的工程。它确实彻底占据了我的生活。我决定在做其他书评的间隙继续阅读，以补上他写过的所有作品。这是一本很难评的书，自它发表以来的这几个星期也很奇妙。

英文原文

>> That's a good question. You know, um, you know, his last novel or his LA I mean the Seven Killings was more than 10 years ago now. And um I had really never read him seriously. For whatever reason, other critics had done his books. I realized I really want to know what he's about. And so I took this as an occasion to go back and read just about everything he's written. And I'm lucky. I'm lucky to be able to look at the horizon and single out books I'd like to review. And I saw Marlin. And signing up to do a big book, it's always a bit nerve-wracking um in the sense that, you know, taking on a big book is taking on a big project. And it really took over my life. decided to read behind during my other reviews to catch up with all the stuff he's written. It was it was a it was a hard book to review and it's been a hard it's been a weird couple of weeks since it appeared.

奇妙？怎么说？

英文原文

>> Weird. How so?

我不知道。就是有这样一种感觉，你知道，对我来说这只是一篇书评，你知道的，但我能感受到聚光灯转而聚焦在马龙·詹姆斯身上，对此我很自豪，这是他应得的。而且你知道，我觉得自己身上也分到了一点关注，而我是个很低调的人。我住在自己的公寓里，我不怎么出门。是的，我只是个注重隐私的普通人。但能够说出一些确实能在文化圈产生一定影响的话，这种感觉很好。我并没有刻意去这么做，碰巧就是这本书摆在那里。

英文原文

>> I don't know. Just this this sense of you know to me it's just it's it's a book review, you know, but I just this sense of this cleague light swinging around to focus on Maron James, which you know I'm proud of. He deserves it. And you know, I feel like on myself a bit as well and um I'm a humble guy. I live in my apartment and I don't I don't go out that much. Yeah. I'm I'm just a private human being. But it feels good to be able to good to be able to say something that that does move the culture a bit. I didn't set out to do that. This was just the book that was there.

你是什么时候意识到这本书是一部杰作的？

英文原文

>> When did you know that this book was a masterpiece?

嗯，大概直到快结尾时才意识到，因为甚至在离结尾还有 75 页的地方，又出现了一段类似节奏放缓的情节。然后他——

英文原文

>> Well, probably not until the very end because even 75 pages before the end, there's another like slack period. Then he

抓住了你。我当时一直在想：“好吧，现在到了这个时候了。现在这本书要让我失望了。”然而它并没有，这太令人惊叹了。嗯，我不觉得我一开始就知道。我没感觉到整个管弦乐队完全协调一致。在前90页里，我感觉像是有很多练习，铜管乐部有很多吱吱嘎嘎的声音，你懂的，直到读到150到220页，整个管弦乐才真正开始昂扬激荡起来。所以，那是我觉得，好吧，这是严肃的小说。在我的书评中，我写道，马龙·詹姆斯（Marlon James）是一个在自己潜意识边缘耕耘的人。我觉得确实如此。顺便说一下，现在很多小说，包括我喜欢的小说，在某种程度上都是一些微小的讽刺和观察。不要误会我的意思，我喜欢那种东西。但眼前这个人拥有一种几乎是德莱塞式（Dreiserian）的天赋。他——我称他为人类精神的长途卡车司机。这是一本那种宏大的书，在漫长的征程中碾压过你，而且他也拥有那种德莱塞式的力量，但同时他又具备微妙的精妙笔触。他的文字太适合引用了。我是说，仅凭他对食物、音乐、文化以及一切的观察，我就可能从这本书里记了30页笔记。这一切就在那里。这就是完整的一体化呈现。

英文原文

grabs you. I kept thinking, "All right, now is the time. Now is the time this book's going to let me down." and then it doesn't, which is amazing. Um, I don't think I knew it. I didn't feel sort of the orchestra fully in tune. I felt like there's a lot of practicing, a lot of squeaking in the in the uh horn section, you know, for the first 90 pages, you know, and the full orchestra only really starts to swell up 150 to 220 pages in. So, that's when I felt like, okay, this this is this is serious fiction. In my review, I wrote that here's a guy, Marlon James, working out on the margins of his subconsciousness. And I feel that's true. So much fiction now in fiction that I like, by the way, is sort of, you know, micro ironies and observations. And I, don't get me wrong, I love that stuff. But here's a guy who has a talent that um is almost a derian. He's he's I call him a long haul trucker of the human spirit. This is one of those big books that that just sort of runs you down over the long haul, you know, and also he has that draerian power and yet he does have the micro felicities. He's so quotable. I mean, I probably took 30 pages of notes out of this book just about his observations on food and music and culture and everything. It's just it's just all there. It's the entire package.

你有这种感觉，这本书成了。脖子上的汗毛都竖起来了。有了那种感觉之后，你是如何着手写这篇书评的？

英文原文

>> You have this feeling this book is it. The the hairs on the neck are prickling. How did you approach writing this review after you had that feeling?

噢，天哪。嗯，你知道，我对待它的方式和我写所有东西的方式一样，那就是，随着阅读的进行，我真的是一边读一边把书给翻烂了，我划线，给自己写批注，提醒自己记住这个场景，这可能是一个很好的结尾，或者评论家们会这么做。他们大部分人都是这么工作的。然后我坐下来，把那些笔记敲进电脑里。为了这本书敲完那些笔记花了我整整两天时间，因为我——对于这本书，我实在是有太多由衷喜爱的地方了。而且我有太多的素材可以发挥。我差点在书评里说——后来我没说——我大概能针对这本书写出一整本书来，而且我认为会有人这么做的。我甚至都没机会深入探讨很多我原本想深入的东西，因为听众们可能不知道，虽然这是一篇长文，而且我也希望它听起来深思熟虑，但你必须在一周内完成这些工作。我想问一下那个大标题、置顶的评价——“即使不是本世纪的最佳之书，也是这十年的最佳之书”。你提到过说出这样的话让人害怕。你能再多谈谈这一点吗？是什么让它显得吓人？你是怎么——你是怎么看待这件事情的？

英文原文

>> Oh god. Well, you know, I approached it the way I approach everything I write, which is, you know, as I'm reading along, I really destroy books as I'm reading them and I underline and I write notes to myself and remember this scene. It might be a good ending or critics do this. That's how most of them work. And then I sit down and I type up those notes. And typing up the notes for this book took me two entire days because I I just I there was so much that I just adored about it. And I had so much to work with. I almost said in the review and I didn't I could probably write a book about this book and I think people will. I didn't even get a chance to get into a lot of things I wanted to get into because listeners might not know but even though this is a long piece and it I hope it sounds considered you you have to do this stuff in a week. I want to ask about the headline the topline book of the decade if not the century. You mentioned that's a scary thing to say. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What makes it scary? How do you how how are you thinking about that?

嗯，我——我认为在最本能的层面上，你担心自己是错的。我——我是一个拥有大平台的评论家。感谢《纽约时报》让我做这件事情。但是使用那些夸张的字眼是很吓人的，因为它们被过度使用了，而且它们是大……或者至少是极少将那样的形容词和用语用到一本书上。我就是不喜欢那么做。但我当时只是觉得，好吧，这是制造点动静的时候了。我很高兴我这么做了。这篇书评引发了极大的轰动，这种热度我觉得我已经很久没见过了。我一直在跟朋友开玩笑说，批评界复兴了。并不是说它曾经真正离开过，但看到你所在的领域成为焦点令人兴奋。我一直收到来自我个人生活圈子里的人发来的短信，那些平时不读书的人，他们会问：“你读过这本书了吗？真有那么好吗？”我说：“确实就是那么好。这本书到处都卖光了。”讨论的焦点似乎既关于这本书，也关于这篇书评。

英文原文

>> Well, I I I think on a primal level, you're worried that you're wrong. I I am I am a critic with a big platform. Thank you, New York Times, for letting me do this. But it's scary to use those big words because they're overused and they're blunderb or at least very rarely employing those kind of adjectives and terms to a book. I just don't like to do that. But I just felt like, all right, this is the time to make some noise. And I'm glad I did. The review is tremendously buzzy in a way that I don't think I've seen in a while. I keep joking with friends like criticism is back. Not that it ever really left, but like it's exciting to see your field get the spotlight. I've been getting texts from people in my personal life, people who aren't readers, who are like, "Have you read this book? Is it this good?" And I'm like, "It is that good. The book is sold out everywhere." the discourse seems to be about both this book but also this review.

是的，我——你知道，我还没看到太多那样的讨论，但我认为，嗯，我确信会有更多关于詹姆斯的讨论出现，因为这种书评设立了一个可以让人借题发挥、或者表示赞同或反对的靶子。我相信人们会各执己见，但那很好。我担心在美国——我也写过关于这方面的文章——书评人没有以前那么多了。我——我怀念那种充满争论的喧嚣对话。我已经读过一些关于这本书的非常好的评论了。劳拉·米勒（Laura Miller）在《Slate》杂志上的文章，她也同意这个看法。她也用了“杰作”这个词。我很高兴看到这一点。但我同样期待那些完全不同意的人。我——这对文化是有益的。我最喜欢的评论家之一是一位名叫肯尼斯·泰南（Kenneth Tynan）的英国评论家，他在50年代、60年代、70年代撰写评论，大部分是戏剧批评。而且，嗯，他总是以能让剧场座无虚席为荣。如果他喜欢某部作品，他希望第二天那个剧场就被挤爆。我有时对一本书也会有这种感觉，但真的直到这一本才真正如此。我有我钟爱的书，我也一直喜欢各种书，但从未——我是说，我认为这个剧场理应座无虚席。

英文原文

>> Yeah, I you know I haven't seen a lot of that yet, but I think um I'm sure that it's coming a lot more discourse about James because the kind of review that sets up something to bounce off of or to agree or disagree with. I'm sure people are going to fall both ways, but that's great. I fear in America and I've written about this that there aren't as many book critics as there were. And I I I missed the tumult of the conversation. I've read some really good reviews of this book already. Laura Miller's in Slate and she agreed. She used the word masterpiece as well. I was happy to see that. But I look forward to the people who completely disagree as well. I I it's good for the culture. One of my favorite critics is a British critic named Kenneth Tinen who wrote back in the ' 50s '60s7s for the most part theater criticism. And um he would always be proud of filling theaters. If he liked something, he wanted that theater to be packed the next day. And I've sometimes felt that way about a book, but really never until this one. I have my favorites and I I like books all the time, but never I mean I this theater deserves to be packed.

是的。我经常想到评论家伊丽莎白·哈德威克（Elizabeth Hardwick）。她在1959年写了这样一篇论文，有点像是在严厉批评当时的大量书评，她在那时说，到处充斥着平庸乏味的赞扬，而她真正想要的不是这种遮蔽，她说她想要的是引述中的“观点的戏剧性”（the drama of opinion），我经常思考这个短语——观点的戏剧性。那并不意味着你必须去痛批一本书，有时去深爱一本书就是观点的戏剧性，传达出一本书是杰作就是观点的戏剧性，我觉得你在那场对话中树立了这个标杆，看到你的书评脱颖而出是极棒的。

英文原文

>> Yeah. I think a lot about the critic Elizabeth Hardwig. she wrote in 1959 this like essay kind of taking to task a lot of the book reviews and she at that point said like there were a lot of bland commendations going around and what she really wanted was rather than cover she said she wanted the quote the drama of opinion and I think about that phrase a lot the drama of opinion and that doesn't mean you have to like savage a book sometimes loving a book is the drama of opinion communicating that a book is a masterpiece is the drama of opinion and I feel like you set that bar in that conversation and to see your review break out is tremendous.

嗯，我很高兴你这么认为。我——我觉得很幸运能——我的意思是，在美国剩下的全职受聘评论家已经不多了。你知道，我是全国少数拥有医疗保险的书评人之一。这简直不可思议。而且我也很幸运，能够，嗯——我不参加书籍派对。我认识的作家不多。我有几个走得很近的作家朋友，他们知道我绝不能写关于他们的评论，反之亦然。在评论界，这向来是一个职业隐患，就是和你所写对象走得过近。这是一件很难避免的事。不论你是哪种评论家，你都会被邀请参加所有的派对。人们会找上你。幸运的是，不管怎样，我本身就有点像个隐士兼厌世者。嗯，所以我也并不是真的很想念［笑声］那些书籍派对。但是，嗯，你知道，我尽量不去跟作家过多交往。如果我遇到了一个我喜欢的作家，我会说：“嗯，这次聊得很开心。如果我们再这样来一次，你知道的，我就不能写你了。我现在就先告诉你。”德怀特，非常感谢你。这太棒了。

英文原文

>> Well, I'm glad you think so. I I feel lucky to I mean, there aren't many um staff critics left in America. You know, I'm one of the few book critics in the country who has health insurance. It's just insane. And I'm lucky too to be um I don't go to book parties. I don't know a lot of writers. I have a couple of writer friends that I'm close to and they know I can never write about them and vice versa. It's always been a professional hazard and criticism of just getting to know the people you're writing about too well. And it's a hard thing to avoid. No matter what kind of critic you are, you're invited to all the parties. People seek you out. And luckily, I'm a bit of a hermit slash probably missenthrop anyway. Um so I don't really miss the [laughter] book parties. But um you know, I make an effort not to uh mix too much with writers. And if I meet a writer that I like, I say, "Well, this has been so much fun. If we do this one more time, you know, I won't be able to write about you. I'm telling you now." Dwight, thank you so much. This has been great.

谢谢，MJ。这很有趣。

英文原文

>> Thanks, MJ. It was fun.

［音乐］

英文原文

>> [music]

专访约翰·格林

广告休息之后，即将播出我对畅销书作家约翰·格林（John Green）的采访。

英文原文

>> Coming up after the break, my interview with the bestselling author John Green.

［音乐］

英文原文

[music]

［音乐］

英文原文

[music]

约翰·格林以其极受喜爱的青少年小说而闻名，其中许多作品不仅仅是书籍，它们是文化事件。他最出名的可能是他的超级畅销小说《无比美妙的痛苦》（The Fault in Our Stars，直译《星运里的错》），该书被改编成了一部轰动一时的大片。但他也拥有丰富的其他作品目录，包括《纸镇》（Paper Towns）、《寻找阿拉斯加》（Looking for Alaska）、《一切都是结核病》（Everything is Tuberculosis）等。我可以一直一直列举下去。约翰不写小说已经有大约10年了。在过去的几年里，他出版了两本非虚构类书籍，但现在他带着一部新小说《好莱坞式，结局》（Hollywood, Ending）回归了，讲述了两位处于成名边缘的年轻演员的故事。值得注意的是，这是约翰第一本面向成人的书。约翰，感谢你的到来。

英文原文

John Green is known for his incredibly beloved young adult novels, many of which are more than just books. They are cultural events. He's probably best known for his uber bestselling novel, The Fall in Our Stars, which was adapted into a blockbuster film. But he has a robust catalog of other titles, too, including Paper Towns, Looking for Alaska, Everything is Tuberculosis, and more. I could keep going on and on and on. It has been about 10 years since John has written fiction. In the past few years, he's published two non-fiction books, but now he is back with a new novel, Hollywood Ending, about two young actors on the brink of fame. And notably, it's John's first book for grown-ups. John, thank you for being here.

噢，谢谢你邀请我。

英文原文

>> Oh, thanks for having me.

我必须告诉你，我对这次对话感到非常兴奋，是一种非常书呆子式的兴奋，那是因为从我开始阅读以来，我一直在读约翰·格林的书。它们已经成为了我的一部分，我认为很多读者都有同样的感受。所以，我对这次交流真的、真的非常期待。

英文原文

>> I have to tell you, I am so excited for this conversation in a very nerdy way, and that is because for as long as I've been reading, I've been reading a John Green book. they've become a part of me and I think a lot of readers feel that way. So, I'm really really excited for this combo.

谢谢。听到你这么说对我意义重大。我认为最大的乐趣之一就是，嗯，陪伴着读者一起成长，并且、并且看着读者们长大，尤其是当你能够为青少年写作，并且在那些人的生活中拥有一席之地的时候。

英文原文

>> Thanks. It means a lot to me that you would say that. I think one of the great joys is uh growing up uh with readers and and and watching readers grow up, especially when you get to write for teenagers and to have a seat at the table in those folks lives.

你塑造了人们思考的方式。你塑造了人们感受的方式。现在你带着一部全新的小说回归了，《好莱坞式，结局》（Hollywood Ending）。好莱坞，逗号，结局。在我开始之前，你能告诉我为什么那里有个逗号吗？那是、那是怎么回事？

英文原文

>> You have shaped how people think. You shape how people feel. And now you're back with a brand new novel, Hollywood Ending. Hollywood comma ending. Before I even begin, can you tell me what is that comma there? What's what's that about?

嗯，我想要这个逗号有几个原因。我是说，我认为你必须读了这本书才能完全

英文原文

>> Well, there were a few reasons I wanted the comma. I mean, I think you have to read the book to fully

理解这个逗号，但我想把“好莱坞式的结局”这个概念复杂化，我想是这样。而且，我也确实认为，我所写的好莱坞正在走向终结。

英文原文

understand the comma, but I wanted to complicate the idea of a Hollywood ending, I guess. And then also, I do think that there's a kind of Hollywood that I'm writing about that that is ending.

是的。所以这只是个引子。书名里的逗号，甚至在你翻开书之前就已经带有一点悬疑感了。不过说到开篇，我想知道你是否能向我们介绍一下这本书。你能告诉我《好莱坞，落幕》（Hollywood, Ending）讲的是什么吗？

英文原文

>> Yeah. And so that's just a teaser. The comma, there's a little bit of intrigue already in on the title before you even begin. But speaking of beginning, I was wondering if you could introduce us to this book. Can you tell me what is this book Hollywood, Ending about?

当然。呃，这在一定程度上是关于学会如何表述你的书讲了什么，因为它讲的是两个二十多岁的年轻人，呃，名叫凯（Kai）和朱妮珀（Juniper），他们主演了一部电影——一部有一位大牌明星参演但期望并不高的小成本电影。随着这部电影开始火起来——它是关于安迪·沃霍尔（Andy Warhol）生命中最后一年的——电影开始火起来了。它得到了非常好的试映评分。呃，人们对此非常兴奋，突然之间他们被推到了聚光灯下，他们的生活开始以令人兴奋和陶醉的方式爆发，但也给他们带来了真正艰难的境遇。一路上他们必须克服各种事情，包括媒体巡回宣传采访，在那种场合你必须学会对自己所推销的艺术作品进行电梯游说式的推介。

英文原文

>> Sure. Uh it's partly about learning to say what your book is about because it's about young two young people in their 20s uh who named Kai and Juniper who are starring in a movie a sort of modest movie with a big star in it but that doesn't have huge expectations around it. And as the movie starts to blow up it's about the last year of Andy Warhol's life and uh the movie starts to blow up. It gets really good test ratings. uh people are really excited about it and suddenly they're in the spotlight and their lives start to blow up in ways that are exciting and intoxicating but also in ways that are really difficult for them and along the way they have to survive all sorts of things including press junkets where you have to learn uh the elevator pitch for the work of art that you are shilling for.

所以这一点都不尴尬，也一点都不元叙事。我们正在媒体宣传采访中谈论关于媒体宣传采访的书。嗯，但我希望这次采访能比凯和朱妮珀在书中所面对的少一些煎熬。

英文原文

>> So this isn't awkward or meta at all. We're in a press junket talking about books about press junkets. Um, but I hope this goes as a little less fraught than what Kai and Juniper face in this book.

我也希望如此，MJ。[笑声]

英文原文

>> I hope so too, MJ. [laughter]

我刚才听你解释这本书，注意到你好几次用到了“爆发（blow up）”这个词，这让我觉得很有意思，因为以前在很多书里，尤其是在青少年文学中，成长是一件常见的事。而“爆发”感觉就像是一种成长，像一种发展，像一种转变，但它更具争议性。

英文原文

>> I was just listening as you were explaining this book. I noticed you said the word blow up several times, which is interesting to me because previously in a lot of books and especially young adult literature, coming of age is a thing. and blowing up feels like a coming of age, like a development, like a transition, but it is more contentious.

是的。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

展开说说。

英文原文

>> Talk to me.

成名的冲击与关系支撑

好的。我的意思是，我想在《无比美妙的痛苦》（The Fault in Our Stars）出版时，我已经 35 岁或 36 岁了。我结婚了。我的生活相当稳定。然而，一种巨大的、极具破坏性的力量进入了我的生活，表现为这种巨大的、呃，所有的关注和所有的成功，被邀请参加各种高档派对，呃，这非常令人兴奋，但同时我的个人生活也受到了大量的审视，这就不那么令人兴奋了，还有人在半夜来到我家敲我的门，以及各种其他真正带来动荡的事情。

英文原文

>> Yeah. I mean, I think when The Fault in our Stars was published, I was 35 or 36. I was married. My life was fairly stable. And yet this huge hugely destabilizing force came into my life in the form of this tremendous uh all this attention and all this success and being invited to fancy parties uh which was very exciting but also having a lot of scrutiny on my my personal life which was less exciting and people coming to my house in the middle of the night and knocking on my door and all kinds of other things that were really sort of destabilizing.

对于我这样一个事情发生时已经步入中年的印第安纳波利斯父亲来说，情况都是如此。我想当这种事发生在年轻人身上时，真的会感觉像一场爆炸。在他们的生活中真的感觉像是一场破裂。这是件美妙的事。当然，从很多方面来说成功都是一件美妙的事，但它可能极具破坏性，尤其是如果你没有那些脚踏实地的、你知道的、能够在中心支撑你的终生关系的话。而凯和朱妮珀在他们的生活突然开始受到审视时，都还在努力去寻找这样的关系。

英文原文

And that that was for me, you know, a dad in Indianapolis who was middle-aged when all this happened. I think when it happens for young people, it really does feel like an explosion. It does feel like a rupture in their lives. And it's a wonderful thing. Of course, success is a wonderful thing in a lot of ways, but it can be very destabilizing, especially if you don't have those grounded, you know, lifelong relationships that are going to be at the the center for you. and Kai and Juniper are still both trying to find those relationships as their their lives start to um get suddenly scrutinized.

我很好奇，想更多地了解作为人、作为角色的凯和朱妮珀。你谈到了大背景，但能多跟我们讲讲他们俩吗？

英文原文

>> I'm curious to know a little bit more about Kai and Juniper as people, as characters. You talked about the big picture, but can you tell us a little bit more about them?

好，他们有一个共同点，那就是他们都过早地懂得了一个道理：你不能总是信任那些负责照顾你的成年人。你知道，当你是个孩子时，你真正能给予的只有爱。你没有资源、金钱或任何其他东西，但你确实有很多爱可以给予。而这种爱可能会被滥用。这种爱可能会以令人痛苦且造成创伤的方式被曲解。凯和朱妮珀两人都经历过这些。但他们是截然不同的人。凯正在出演他的第一部电影。他以前从未真正意义上呆过电影片场。他非常有魅力，但也非常生疏青涩。而朱妮珀曾经是个童星。所以她从五六岁起就一直在电影片场了。这其实是她唯一感到自在的方式，我发现很多以演戏为生或在电影片场工作为生的人都是这样。她极具野心。她非常勤奋。她非常专注投入。她有点“难伺候”的名声，但她之所以难伺候，是因为她想做出真正优秀的艺术作品。我其实觉得这反而值得赞赏，但在好莱坞的世界里，当一个艺术家真正执着于做出优秀艺术时，这往往会被视为一种麻烦或复杂问题。

英文原文

>> Yeah, so one thing they share is that they've both had to learn too early that you can't always trust the adults who are tasked with caring for you. You know, when you're a kid, all you really have to give is love. you don't have resources or money or or anything else, but you do have a lot of love to give. And that love can be misused. That love can be twisted in ways that are devastating and traumatic. And that's both Kai and Juniper have experienced that. But they're very different people. Kai is in his first movie. He's never been on a movie set before in a meaningful way. He is really charismatic, really green. And Juniper is a former child star. And so she's been on movie sets since she was 5 or 6 years old. This is really the only way she feels comfortable, which I found is the case for a lot of folks who who act for a living or work on movie sets for a living. And she's extremely ambitious. She's very hardworking. She's very dedicated. She has something of a reputation for being difficult, but the reason she's difficult is because she wants to make really good art. And I kind of think that's worth celebrating actually, but is often treated as as a difficulty or a complexity in the world of Hollywood when an artist is really obsessed with making good art.

我想就这点深入探讨一下。你提到了“难相处”，但这实际上是件好事。

英文原文

>> I want to dig into that a little bit. You mentioned difficulty, but it's actually a good thing.

是的。是的。所以，很多时候我们的缺点也是我们的长处所在，你知道的。我的意思是，朱妮珀非常有抱负，她非常勤奋，在追求自己真正想要的事物时，她可以有一点毫不留情，但有时你必须那样，你知道，比如有时如果你想取得成功，特别是在一个竞争异常激烈的行业中。有时你必须有点完美主义。你必须非常非常努力地工作。尤其是对于年轻女性，这有时会被解读为，嗯，她们很难相处。但事实上，她们只是非常勤奋、非常专注，并且真的在努力创作出伟大的作品。

英文原文

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, a lot of times our flaws are also um areas of strength for us, you know. I mean, Juniper is very ambitious and she is very hardworking and she can be a little cutthroat in the pursuit of the things that she really wants, but sometimes you have to be that, you know, like sometimes you if you want to be successful, especially in a highly competitive industry. Sometimes you you have to be a bit of a perfectionist. You have to work really really hard. And especially with young women, that is sometimes interpreted as, well, they're difficult. but in fact they're just really hardworking and really dedicated and really trying to make something great.

当她表现出魄力时，她会被轻视排斥，但当男性表现出魄力时，他们会受到赞扬。因此我很好奇，你能跟我讲讲通过这两个背景不同、经历各异的角色，从这两个不同的角度来探索这个主题吗？

英文原文

>> When she is assertive, she's written off, but when men are assertive, they're celebrated. And so I'm curious, can you tell me a little bit about exploring that theme from these two different angles through these two different characters who do come from different backgrounds and have different experiences?

野心与两性视角

是的，我认为当你真正渴望成功并且成功降临时，这与你稀里糊涂地碰上成功是不同的。当你真正渴望它时，这反而几乎更艰难，因为这样一来，其中那些复杂、艰难或并非你梦想的部分，呃，会使你与自己的梦想和渴望之间的关系变得复杂起来。

英文原文

Yeah, I think when you really want success and it happens, it's different than when you sort of stumble into success. And it's almost harder when you really want it because then the parts of it that are complex or difficult or or not your dream uh complicate your relationship with your own dreams and your own desires.

在写到野心，以及朱妮珀为了拍出一部伟大的电影而不惜一切代价的意愿时。我的意思是，我有一点想到自己，但我也很多次想到了我的配偶，她也是从事艺术工作的。我认为她的抱负、职业道德以及有些人所谓的完美主义，所受到的对待与我的截然不同。我认为这在很大程度上是性别差异造成的。

英文原文

when it came to writing about ambition and Juniper's willingness to do what it takes to make a great movie. I mean, I was thinking some about myself, but I was thinking a lot about my spouse, too, who works in the arts. And I think her ambition and and work ethic and what some would call perfectionism is treated very differently than mine. And I think that's largely a gendered thing.

你提到想到了你自己和你的配偶。是什么启发了构成《好莱坞结局》（Hollywood ending）的故事？我最初想写——我的意思是，我写这本书已经写了八年了，所以我有很多时间去思考我想写什么——但我最初想写的是注意力经济和名人文化，以及私人经历被包装和商品化

英文原文

>> You mentioned thinking about yourself and your spouse. What inspired the story that makes up Hollywood ending? I started out wanting to write I mean I've been writing this book for eight years so I've had plenty of time to think about what I wanted to write about but I started out wanting to write about the attention economy and celebrity culture and the way that private experience is packaged and commodified

呃，为了公众的注意力，这曾经主要是电影明星以及在较小程度上小说家面临的问题，但现在是每个人都面临的问题，因为我们都在社交网络中参与其中，我们都在使用这种奇怪的货币进行交易付出。所以我本来想写这个。但后来一路走来，我意识到我所写的远不止于此，而是你如何找到为了挺过必须承受的困境所需要找到的爱。凯和朱妮珀在生活中都面临着他们必须克服的真正挑战。并且，希望他们能够发现，不孤军奋战会让这一切变得可以承受。在名望、曝光度、名人效应这个庞大的话题中，你是如何锁定这个主题的？

英文原文

uh for public attention which used to be a question mostly for movie stars and to a lesser extent novelists but is now a question for everyone because we all participate on the social internet we all trade paid in this weird currency. And so I wanted to write about that. But then along the way, I realized that what I was writing about more than that was how you find the love that you need to find in order to survive what you have to survive. And both Kai and Juniper have real challenges in their lives that they have to get through. And and what hopefully they find is that not doing that alone makes it manageable. How did you land on that theme out of this big topic, fame, visibility, celebrity?

是的，你知道，我的很多书都被改编成了电影，所以我去过很多电影片场，而且，你知道，我自己也有过与名人身份打交道的种种经历。我一直在想，是什么决定了一个人能安然无恙还是无法承受？

英文原文

>> Yeah, you know, I've had a bunch of my my books adapted into movies and so I've been on a lot of film sets and I've also, you know, had whatever encounters with celebrity myself that I've had. And I kept thinking, what is it that makes it okay or not okay?

嗯。嗯，你知道，是什么让有些人能够挺过来，而另一些人挺不过来？我又回到了这些起到基石作用的核心关系上。

英文原文

>> Mhm. M you know what is it that that makes some people get through it and other people not get through it? And I came back to these grounding core relationships.

但是当你二十出头的时候，你还没有建立起那些核心关系。或者至少我们大多数人都没有。我当时肯定没有。所以你正在努力——你仍在努力弄清楚的不仅是你的一生要做什么，还有你要与谁共度一生。那是一个如此重大、有趣的问题，它对你的余生有着如此巨大的重要影响。回想起来，绝大多数情况下我做过的最重要的决定

英文原文

But when you're in your early 20s, you don't have those core relationships yet. Or most of us don't anyway. I certainly didn't. And so you're trying you're still trying to figure out not just what you're going to do with your life, but who you're going to do life with. And that's such a big interesting question and it has so much import on the rest of your life. Like looking back overwhelmingly the most important decision I

ever made was who I was going to marry and the most important decision Sarah ever made was who she was going to marry. Making those big decisions which you're making with limited information. I always think about how bonkers it is that when I was like 26 years old, I stood at the front of a church and made a promise and had no idea what I was promising. [gasps] But who you're going to do life with is such an important question. In some ways, even more important than what you're going to do with your life. And I really I really wanted to explore those private intimate considerations amid this big public spectacle.

英文原文

ever

made

was

who

was

going

marry

and

the

most

important

decision

Sarah

ever

made

was

who

she

was

going

marry.

Making

those

big

decisions

which

you're

making

with

limited

information.

always

think

about

how

bonkers

that

when

was

years

old,

stood

the

front

church

and

made

promise

and

had

idea

what

was

promising.

[gasps]

But

who

you're

going

life

with

such

important

question.

some

ways,

even

important

than

what

you're

going

with

your

life.

And

really

wanted

explore

those

private

intimate

considerations

amid

this

big

public

spectacle.

嗯。

这是你的成人文学处女作。这对我来说至少是一件大事，因为在我的脑海中，你几乎就是青少年文学的代名词。你在那个年龄段写了这么多作品，而且你的书在那个领域又如此有影响力。所以，我想知道转向成人文学是什么感觉？还有，我想知道为什么要把这个故事写成一部成人小说，而不是一部青少年小说呢？我一开始是想写那些经历名利机器的年轻人，那种把人类经历转变成电影票或图书销量、或者无论转变成什么的名利机器。

英文原文

>> Mhm.

This

your

adult

debut.

That

least

huge

because

brain

you

are

synonymous

with

young

adult

literature.

you've

written

much

that

age

bracket,

but

then

also

your

books

have

been

impactful

that

arena.

So,

I'm

wondering

what

was

pivoting

adult

literature?

And

guess

why

tell

this

story

adult

novel

rather

than

young

adult

novel?

started

out

trying

write

about

younger

people

going

through

the

fame

machine,

the

machine

that

turns

human

experience

into

movie

tickets

book

sales

whatever

turns

them

into.

从青少年到二十多岁

但我发现我写的这些人根本没有高中的烦恼。这让我非常兴奋，因为从创作的角度来看，写青少年的绝妙之处在于你是在写“第一次”。你第一次做某件事时，它是如此强烈，如此前所未有。当我第一次坠入爱河时，那种感觉不仅是我以前从未爱过，而且就像整个人类历史上从来没有人经历过我所经历的一切。对于一个作家来说，能够处于这种高亢的空间中是非常有趣的，你可以使用高度浓烈的情感语言和其他策略来传达你第一次坠入爱河、第一次面对悲痛、第一次追问关于意义、苦难和失去等重大问题时的强烈程度。但对于这些角色来说，让我感到特别兴奋的是，这并不是他们的第一次。

英文原文

>> But

found

that

these

people

that

was

writing

about

just

didn't

have

high

school

problems.

And

that

was

exciting

for

because

the

great

thing

about

writing

about

teenagers

from

creative

perspective

that

you're

writing

about

firsts.

And

the

first

time

you

something,

it's

intense.

It's

unprecedented.

When

first

fell

love,

wasn't

just

I'd

never

fallen

love

before.

was

one

human

history

had

ever

experienced

what

was

experiencing.

And

that's

really

fun

for

writer

able

this

these

sort

heightened

spaces

where

you

can

use

heightened

language

and

other

strategies

get

across

the

intensity

your

first

falling

love,

your

first

time

grappling

with

grief,

your

first

time

asking

the

big

questions

about

meaning

and

suffering

and

loss

and

all

that

other

stuff.

But

with

these

characters,

what

was

exciting

was

that

isn't

their

first.

嗯。

英文原文

>> Mhm.

这是凯（Kai）的第一部电影。这是他们第一次涉足名流圈。这些是第一次，但这并不是他们第一次尝试去爱。这并不是他们第一次面对悲痛或面对创伤。这真的，我不知道，这对我来说就很令人兴奋，因为我以前从未这样做过。所以，我真的很喜欢写二十多岁的人。我还发现，尽管我认为我的十几岁对我最终成为怎样的人极其重要，但我认为我的二十多岁可能甚至更重要。

英文原文

>> It's

Kai's

first

movie.

It's

their

first

brush

with

celebrity.

Those

are

firsts,

but

it's

not

their

first

time

trying

fall

love.

It's

not

their

first

time

grappling

with

grief

grappling

with

trauma.

And

that

was

really,

don't

know,

was

just

exciting

because

I'd

never

done

before.

And

so,

really

enjoyed

writing

about

people

their

20s.

also

found,

much

think

teens

were

hugely

important

the

person

ended

becoming,

think

20s

might

have

been

even

important.

唔，你能就此多说一点吗？我不知道你怎么样，MJ，但我的二十多岁过得挺灾难性的。呃，我记得大约24岁时有一次去看医生，她离开房间时把我的病历本开着放在那里，我看了我的病历——你本来不应该看的，但我看了我的病历，我看到的第一句话就是“患者为低功能年轻成人”——

英文原文

>> H,

can

you

say

about

that?

Well,

don't

know

about

you,

MJ,

but

20s

were

pretty

catastrophic.

Um,

remember

going

the

doctor

once

when

was

and

she

left

chart

open

when

she

left

the

room

and

looked

chart,

which

you're

not

supposed

do,

but

looked

chart

and

the

first

thing

saw

was

patient

low

functioning

young

adult

然后我就——

英文原文

>> and

was

晴天霹雳。太打击人了。

英文原文

>> devastating.

Devastating.

嗯，但也很打击人地准确，因为我当时确实是一个低功能的年轻成人。所以我只是觉得，对我来说，学习如何成为一个成年人、学习如何与成年人的世界互动、学习如何以成年人的方式生活，这很难。每个月付房租很难。把所有那些事情弄明白真的、真的很难。但那也是一段非常令人兴奋的时光，因为那是一个一切皆有可能的时期。你知道，那时候我的人生可以走向无数种方向，这所有一切的无尽可能让人感到一种陶醉。是啊，我的意思是文学里发生的不就是这样吗？有紧张，有挑战，有冲突，然后故事展开，角色成长，或者明显地没有成长。就像模仿《阿甘正传》里的话，生活就像一部小说。［笑声］

英文原文

>> Well,

devastating

its

accuracy,

too,

because

really

was

low

functioning

young

adult.

And

just

think

for

learning

how

grown-up,

learning

how

interact

with

the

grown-up

world,

learning

how

live

adult

was

hard.

Paying

the

rent

every

month

was

hard.

Figuring

all

that

stuff

out

was

really,

really

hard.

But

was

also

time

great

excitement

because

was

time

when

anything

was

still

possible.

You

know,

when

life

could

any

number

ways

and

there's

sort

intoxication

about

endless

possibilities

all.

Yeah,

mean

that's

what

happens

literature,

right?

There's

tension,

there's

challenge,

there's

conflict,

and

then

the

story

develops,

the

characters

grow,

pointedly

not

grow.

Life

novel

pseudo

quote

Forest

Gump.

[laughter]

所以现在我们到了二十多岁，我们进入了成人文学的世界。作为一名作者，这为你开启了什么？因为处在这个新的年龄段，你的写作方式不同了吗？你的思考方式不同了吗？

英文原文

now

we're

our

20s,

are

the

world

adult

literature.

What

did

that

unlock

for

you

author?

Did

you

write

differently?

Did

you

think

differently?

because

you're

this

new

age

bracket.

创伤与叙事距离

所以，我认为在文学构思方面，没有什么东西是年轻人无法理解的。比如，你想一想，今年读《了不起的盖茨比》和《哈姆雷特》的人大多数都是青少年，对吧？今年读《宠儿》的人可能大多数都是青少年。我一直认为，你知道，无论我写得多好，青少年都不仅能跟得上，而且还能理解得更多。因此，从来没有针对这方面的一击即中之类的情况。然而，确实需要面对大多数青少年不会去考虑的事情。比如，不幸的是，很多青少年都真切地生活在创伤之中。

英文原文

>> So,

don't

think

there's

anything

terms

literary

conceits

that

unavailable

young

people.

Like,

you

think

about

it,

most

the

people

who

are

going

read

Gatsby

and

Hamlet

this

year

are

teenagers,

right?

Most

the

people

who

are

going

read

Beloved

this

year

are

probably

teenagers.

I've

always

thought,

you

know,

however

well

can

write,

teenagers

are

going

for

and

then

some.

And

there

was

never

really

hit

this

one

something

that.

There

however

grapple

things

that

aren't

considerations

for

most

teenagers.

lot

teenagers

are

living

through

trauma

lot

unfortunately.

但这与经历过创伤幸存下来的感觉是非常不同的。对于凯和茱妮珀（Juniper）来说，他们的童年创伤虽然已经结束，但并没有成为过去。你知道，福克纳有句名言：“过去永远不会死去。它甚至还没有过去。”这对茱妮珀和凯来说非常贴切。比如，他们无法将发生过的事情仅仅看作是过去发生的事，因为感觉它仍然在发生。那也是我二十多岁的一部分。而且我认为这也是许多人成年生活的一部分，嗯，你知道童年依然以深刻且有时非常艰难的方式伴随着我们。

英文原文

But

that's

very

different

than

what

it's

having

survived

trauma.

And

for

both

Kai

and

Juniper,

their

childhood

traumas

have

come

end,

but

aren't

the

past.

You

know,

there's

that

great

Faulner

line,

the

past

never

dead.

It's

not

even

past.

And

that's

very

much

the

case

for

Juniper

and

Kai.

they

they're

not

able

think

what

happened

them

having

happened

because

still

feels

happening.

And

that

was

also

part

20s.

And

think

it's

part

lot

people's

adulthood

that

you

know

childhood

still

with

profound

and

sometimes

really

difficult

ways.

嗯，我一直在琢磨和思考的一点是，你提到——

英文原文

>> H

one

thing

I'm

just

noodling

and

thinking

through

you

mentioned

青少年要面对很多、很多沉重的事情，很多复杂的事情。呃，但你能够以一种非常、稍微有些不同的方式来处理它，在——

英文原文

>> teenagers

deal

with

lot

heavy

stuff,

lot

complex

stuff.

Um,

but

you

were

able

approach

very

little

bit

differently

这本书里，因为这是明确的好莱坞结局，明确面向成人的。

英文原文

>> this

book

because

was

explicitly

Hollywood

ending

explicitly

for

grown-ups.

但你的书总体上都挺沉重的。我们面对过癌症，面对过死亡，面对过强迫症（OCD）。所以我想知道多一点关于——对。仅仅从创作技艺上来说，在写一个更成熟的故事和写这些角色时，你能够做到什么，你在思考什么，你是如何让这个故事和这些角色鲜活起来的。

英文原文

>> But

your

books

across

the

board

are

pretty

heavy.

We've

dealt

with

cancer.

We've

dealt

with

death.

We've

dealt

with

OCD.

And

guess

I'm

wondering

little

bit

about

Yeah.

just

craftwise

writing

mature

story

and

writing

these

characters,

what

you

were

able

do,

what

you

were

thinking

about,

how

you

brought

this

story

and

this

these

characters

life.

当然。我认为当你写青少年时，是没有叙事距离的。故事本身与对它的讲述之间没有距离。没有，你知道，因为感觉它就像此刻正在发生，因为对他们来说，这确实就是此刻正在发生。嗯——

英文原文

>> Sure.

think

when

you're

writing

about

teenagers,

there's

narrative

distance.

There's

distance

between

the

story

and

its

telling.

There's

no,

you

know,

because

feels

it's

happening

right

now

because

for

them

happening

right

now.

呃，当你在回望童年经历或青春期的创伤时，情况就截然不同了，因为有了那种叙事距离。有了那种进行语境化的能力，能够透过过去自己的视角来审视现在的自己。老实说，这对我来说是写这本书带来的恩赐之一。我的意思是，这是我有过的最愉快的写作体验。而且我认为我之所以拥有这种喜悦，原因之一是因为我个人生活中的许多事情，即使它们已经过去，但曾经依然充满着现在时态的感觉，而我终于能够把它们归置到过去时态中了。

英文原文

>> um

when

you're

looking

back

childhood

experiences

adolescent

trauma,

it's

very

different

because

there

that

narrative

distance.

There

that

ability

contextualize

see

current

self

through

the

lens

past

self.

And

this

honestly

was

one

the

gifts

writing

the

book

for

me.

mean

this

was

the

most

joyful

experience

I've

ever

had

writing.

And

think

one

of the

reasons

had

that

joy

was

because

lot

stuff

own

life

that

was

very

present

tense

even

though

was

the

past

was

finally

able

sort

situate

the

past

tense.

写作耗时与视角转变

我很喜欢这种类似接纳人生不同阶段的想法，比如带着后见之明，并希望带着智慧去回望。呃，你说过这是你有过的最愉快的写作体验之一，但你也提到过——我想绕回到你之前在采访中提到过的一点——你花了八年时间来写这本书。我的问题是，为什么？

这其中有很多因素在起作用。我的意思是，在这期间我确实为成年人写了两本非虚构作品，一本是结核病史，一本是散文集。但我认为最大的原因是我花了至少五年时间才真正找到切入这个故事的路径。这个故事是从茱妮珀和凯两个人的视角来讲述的。多年来，我一直以为它只通过凯的视角来讲述。这真的限制了我。只有当我在某种程度上转换了镜头，意识到我要从他们两人的角度来写时，我才能够打开局面，并开始感觉到散文的节奏向我涌来。你最初为什么觉得只有凯？然后那个转折点是什么？在哪个节点你意识到“等等，我确实需要转换这个镜头”？

英文原文

>> I

love

this

idea

acceptance

different

phases

life

looking

back

with

hindsight

and

hopefully

wisdom.

Um,

you

said

this

was

one

the

most

joyous

experiences

that

you've

had

writing,

but

you

also

mentioned,

I'm

circling

back

something

you

said

earlier

the

interview,

that

took

you

eight

years

write

this

book.

question

why?

Well,

there

were

there

was

lot

that

factored

into

it.

mean,

did

write

two

non-fiction

books

for

adults

the

interim,

one

history

tuberculosis

and

one

collection

essays.

But

think

the

biggest

reason

was

that

took

least

five

years

really

find

way

into

the

story.

The

story

told

both

from

Juniper

and

Kai's

perspectives.

And

for

years,

thought

was

only

going

told

through

Kai's

perspective.

And

that

really

limited

me.

And

and

was

only

once

kind

turned

the

camera

around

and

realized

that

was

going

write

both

them

that

was

able

unlock

and

start

feel

the

rhythm

the

pros

coming

me.

Why

did

you

initially

think

only

Kai

and

then

what

was

that

juncture?

What

was

that

point

where

you

realized

wait

need

turn

this

around?

是的。所以我当时想——我之所以想只有凯，是因为我觉得透过这位焦虑而有魅力的新人的视角，我们确实可以看到好莱坞诸多美好的东西，以及关于这个……非常支离破碎的诸多面向。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

thought

only

Kai

because

thought

through

the

lens

this

anxious

charismatic

newbie.

could

really

see

lot

what

good

about

Hollywood

and

lot

what

profoundly

broken

about

the

把孩子们变成电影票的机器。我不知道还能怎么形容。就是你的肉身实实在在地被变成了电影票。那是一种非常怪异、多少有点去人性化的事情。所以我当时试着去写这一点。只要我仅仅是在写那个，用 Kai 的视角就很合理。但当我意识到我真正想写的是两个人坠入爱河，陷入那种能够把我们维系在一起的爱时，我便明白：噢，我得把镜头转过来，这样我们就能看到 Juniper 眼中的 Kai，也能看到 Juniper 眼中的自己。

英文原文

machine that turns kids into movie tickets. I don't know how else to say it. It is your literal body that is turned into movie tickets. And that is a really weird, somewhat dehumanizing thing. So I I was trying to write about that. And as long as I was only writing about that, it made sense to be in Kai's perspective. But when I realized that what I really wanted to write about was two people falling in the kind of love that can that can hold us together, that's when I knew, oh, I've got to turn the camera around and so that we can see Kai as Juniper sees him and we can see Juniper as she sees herself.

名声与二维化

你有一句关于名声的话，我一直在反复思索。你说：“我嗑过很多药，但没有什么能像名声那样带来冲击。”它有时是兴奋剂，有时是镇静剂，但它总会震撼你。不是你说的——是你书里的角色说的。嗯，

英文原文

>> You have this quote about fame that I'm thinking a lot about. You said, "I've done a lot of drugs, but nothing hits like fame." Sometimes it's an upper, sometimes it's a downer, but it will always rock you. Not you said that your character in your book says that. Um,

是的，谢谢你[笑]把这区分开来。

英文原文

>> yeah, thank you for [laughter] the distinction.

澄清一下，这不是 John Green 把名声比作毒品，而是有一个年长的影星角色在对 Kai 和 Juniper 说话时讲道：“我嗑过很多药，但没有什么能像名声那样带来冲击。”对吧。

英文原文

>> Clarification, this is not John Green talking about fame as a drug, but there's an older movie star character who's talking to Kai and Juniper and says, "I've done a lot of drugs, but nothing hits like fame." Right.

你对名声怎么看？

英文原文

>> How do you feel about fame?

噢，很复杂。嗯，我想这本书的读者会看得很清楚，但我觉得我们都想听到别人说自己干得不错。

英文原文

>> Oh, mixed. um as I think will be clear to readers of the book, but I think we all want to hear that we're doing a good job.

嗯。

英文原文

>> Mhm.

而且特别是我们的创作成果能得到重视和好评。所以当你收到很多那样的反馈时，感觉真的非常非常好。嗯，感觉棒极了，尤其是刚开始的时候。

英文原文

>> And that our especially our creative work has has been valued and wellreceived. And so when you get a lot of that input, it feels really really good. Um it feels really good, especially at first.

你也会收到很多负面反馈。而那些负面反馈对我来说打击要沉重得多。打击更大，是因为我觉得那是真的。当别人说我写了一本好书时，我并不是真的完全相信；但当他们说我写了一本烂书时，我完全相信他们，因为那印证了我对自己一直以来的怀疑——那就是我是个冒牌货，配不上我所获得的成功，我确实配不上。嗯，

英文原文

>> You also get a lot of negative input. And the negative input hits much harder for me at least. It hits harder because I think it's true. I don't really fully believe people when they say that I wrote a good book, but I do fully believe them when they say that I wrote a bad book because that confirms what I have always suspected of myself, which is that I'm an impostor and I'm not worthy of the success that I've, which I'm not. Um,

可以肯定你不是冒牌货。我这次对话一开始就明说了，“你的书对我意义非凡。”

英文原文

>> can confirm you are not an imposttor. I literally open this conversation by being like, "Your books have meant so much to me."

哎，你可以这么说。是的，我是说你能这么说真的很体贴，而且我非常非常感激。但我没有办法完全相信。就像我根本做不到，而且我觉得我们大家都是这样。我是说至少所有像我们这样脆弱、焦虑，向世界寻求安全感而世界又无法给予的人都是如此。所以在这一层面上它是喜忧参半的。

关于名声这件事，我想 Matthew Malone——也就是书里的那位影星——说过，名声让你变得庞大，但也让你变得扁平、二维化。

英文原文

>> Well, you can. Yeah, I mean it's very nice of you to say that and I and and I deeply deeply appreciate it. I do not fully believe it. Like I just can't and I think that's true for all of us. I mean at least all of us who are vulnerable and anxious and seeking security from the world that the world can't provide. And so that part of it is mixed.

The thing about fame, and I think Matthew Malone, the kind of movie star who's in the book, says fame makes you big, but it also makes you two-dimensional.

这也是我想写 Andy Warhol 的原因之一，那就是在我看来，Andy Warhol 简直是一个极致的范例：一位极其出名、但个人本身并不怎么为人所知的艺术家。所以他非常庞大，但也极度二维化。那种体验令人不安，因为我们都——我们都渴望能自由地做一个三维立体的人。而当关于你只有单一的叙事，或者像安妮·海瑟薇（Anne Hathaway）或汤姆·赫兰德（Tom Holland）或其他任何名人那样存在单一的主导叙事时，一旦关于你只有一种叙事，它在某种程度上就把你二维化了。如今更是如此，因为我们对名人的大部分体验都是通过屏幕来中介的。就好像他们现在在字面意义上就是二维的。所以那部分经历曾经让我非常难以释怀。老实说，MJ，我生命中比如金·卡戴珊（Kim Kardashian）在发推特提到我的那个时期，我并没有特别享受。

英文原文

>> This is one of the reasons I wanted to write about Andy Warhol is that Andy Warhol was sort of the ultimate example to me of an artist who became very very famous while not being particularly wellknown. And so he was very big, but he was also extremely two-dimensional. And that experience is disconcerting because we all we all want to be free to be three-dimensional people. And when there's a single narrative about you or there's a single dominant narrative as there is about say Anne Hathaway or Tom Holland or whatever other celebrity, when there's a single narrative about you, it sort of two-dimensionalizes you. And that's even more the case now that so much of our experience of celebrity is mediated through screens. Like they're literally two-dimensional now. And so that part is was very difficult for me to reconcile myself to. And to be honest, MJ did not particularly relish the period of my life when like Kim Kardashian was tweeting about me.

推文也就什么 140、280 个字符。所以谈论起必然的二维化，尽管我想它们确实是二维的，但也同样是简短、狭小、平面的。

英文原文

>> Tweets are what 140 280 characters. So talk about necessarily two-dimensional, though I guess they are two-dimensional, but also like brief, small, flat.

是的。没有语境。

英文原文

>> Yep. No context.

没有语境。

英文原文

>> No context.

没有细微差别。

英文原文

>> No nuance.

安迪·沃霍尔与保护核心自我

挺有意思的。读这本书时我才意识到，我对 Andy Warhol 这个人本身所知甚少。我知道……我知道汤罐头。

英文原文

>> It's interesting. I realized reading this book how little I knew about Andy Warhol as a person. I knew I knew soup cans.

是的。

英文原文

>> Yep.

我知道波普艺术。我就知道这些。

英文原文

>> I knew pop art. That's what I got.

所以他们正在拍的那部电影是关于 Andy Warhol 生命中最后一年的。名字叫《Andy Warhol Never Gets Old》。那两个年轻人——Kai 扮演 Andy Warhol 在《Interview》杂志众多助手中的一位，Juniper 则扮演一位年轻记者，正在写一篇关于他的长篇人物专访。这是一件出了名难办的事，因为 Warhol 说话只用极其晦涩隐晦的句子，而且一直在抹煞掩盖自己的过去。

英文原文

>> So the movie that they're making is about the last year of Andy Warhol's life. It's called Andy Warhol Never Gets Old. And the two young people are Kai plays Andy Warhol's sort of one of his many assistants at Interview magazine and Juniper plays a young reporter who's who's writing a profile of him, which was a notoriously hard thing to do because Warhol only spoke in extremely elliptical sentences and was constantly uh sort of obfuscating his own past.

他要是活到现在肯定会喜欢播客的。

英文原文

>> He would have loved a podcast.

他肯定会喜欢播客。[笑声] 嗯，我不知道你能否让 Andy 聊上一个小时，不过 MJ，你可能大概做得到。所以，嗯，

英文原文

>> He would have loved a podcast. [laughter] Um, you I don't know if you could have gotten Andy to talk for an hour, but maybe you probably could have, MJ. So, um,

如果我说错了请纠正我，你妻子是研究 Andy Warhol 的学者吧。

英文原文

>> correct me if I'm wrong, your wife is an Andy Warhol scholar.

没错。所以这也是我写 Warhol 的一个附带原因，既是当作一封情书，同时我也知道自己会得到很多有益的反馈，一种实时的现场事实核查。

英文原文

>> That is correct. So, that was an ancillary reason to why I wrote about Warhol, both as a love letter and knowing that I would get lots of helpful feedback, a real time fact check.

实时，实时的反馈。我可以直接沿着走廊喊一声，问问 Warhol 会不会说某句话，然后 Sarah [笑声] 就会在走廊那头喊回来“不会”。呃，所以那算是一个原因。

不过我想写 Warhol 的最大原因，是因为他预见到了我们这个时代的很多东西。他预见到了所有东西都将变成二维的这一事实。你提到了汤罐头。那些是著名的三维立体物品，然后他把它们呈现在了二维丝网版画中。你知道，那真正是最初让他名声大噪的东西。但是，你知道，他和演员们做过试镜测试，让他们就那么盯着摄像机看上五分钟、十分钟或十五分钟，它们极具震撼力。那些……那些……那些作品，Warhol 的影像作品。令人着迷。

英文原文

>> Real time, real time feedback. I can just like shout down the hallway and ask if uh Warhol would have said something and then Sarah [laughter] will shout back no. Uh so that that was one reason.

The biggest reason though I wanted to write about Warhol because he saw so much of our world coming. He saw the fact that everything was going to be two-dimensional. You mentioned the soup cans. Those are famously three-dimensional objects that he then rendered in in two-dimensional screen prints. You know, that was really what made him famous in the first place. But, you know, he did screen tests with actors where he would have them just sort of stare at a camera for five or 10 or 15 minutes and they're utterly arresting. Those those those works, the the video works of Warhol. Fascinating.

我以前真不知道他做过那个。我都等不及要……这次对话结束后我得去做做研究、做做功课了。

英文原文

>> I did not know he did that. I can't wait to I have my research to do my my homework after this conversation.

是的，我想我原本在《Hollywood ending》里写过一些那方面的内容，但我删掉了。所以，[笑声] 你没了解到这些不是你的错。是我的问题。嗯，

关于 Warhol 真正让我着迷的另一件事是，他极其出名，并且……嗯，却依然找到了一种保护自己核心自我的方法。而那是极其难做到的。那是我曾经苦苦挣扎的一件事。所以我把他当作一个榜样，看看或许这样做是可能的。在研究了这些、写了这些之后，你有什么答案、什么建议或者劝告吗？

英文原文

>> Yeah, I I think I had some of that stuff in Hollywood ending, but I cut it. So, [laughter] it's not your fault for not learning about it. It's my fault. Um,

and then the other thing about Warhol that really fascinated me is that he was extremely famous and um, and yet found a way to protect his core self. And that's really hard to do. That's something that I've struggled with a lot. And so I was looking to him as an example of the fact that maybe it is possible to do that. After researching this, after writing this, do you have any answers, any suggestions, any advice?

我对年轻成名者的建议？嗯，正如罗伯特·弗罗斯特（Robert Frost）所言，“唯一的出路是穿过去”，但你必须记住，别人热爱你的作品，其中有许多非常值得享受的东西，许多是一种馈赠。比如，这压倒性地是一份馈赠。比如在过去的 20 年里，人们带着如此的慷慨来阅读我的小说，这令我惊叹，因为一本小说确实需要一位慷慨的读者。就像我记得 16 岁时读了《了不起的盖茨比》，我觉得它烂透了；回头来看，问题显然不在《了不起的盖茨比》，对吧？就像你刚才在对话中非常宽厚地说我的书对你有所意义。但它们对你有所意义的原因，是因为你拿出了自己最深处的自我，那些你最难以言表、最难找到语言或形式去表达的部分，把它们带入到了我的故事中。你必须记住这一点。

英文原文

>> My advice to young famous people? Um, the only way out is through, as Robert Frost put it, but you have to remember that there's a lot that's very enjoyable and a lot that's a gift about people loving your work. Like, it is overwhelmingly a gift. Like the generosity with which people have read my novels over the last 20 years astonishes me because a novel really does require a generous reader. Like I remember when I was 16, I read The Great Gatsby and I thought it sucked and like the problem looking back was obviously not with The Great Gatsby, right? Like you were very kind earlier in this conversation to say that my books have meant something to you. But the reason they meant something to you was because you took your deepest self, the parts of you that are hardest to articulate, that are hardest to find language or form for, and you brought them to my stories. And you have to remember that.

所以我想对他们说的就是：努力守住那一点。努力守住这个事实：这里面有着真正的魔力，这里面正在诞生真正的馈赠。即便香肠制作的过程有时令人反感。

嗯，我是个素食主义者，所以我喜欢香肠隐喻。[笑声]

稍后休息片刻，接下来是 John Green 谈论他职业生涯的这一刻，以及年轻时对他产生过深刻影响的几本书。

[音乐]

生涯回顾

我想做个过渡。我们专门聊《Hollywood ending》已经聊了一会儿了，但我想把视野拉开，我想先这样问起——

你如何理解你职业生涯中的这一个节点？你的第一本书出版大约是在 2005 年，也就是说你写作已经 21 年了。你写过青少年小说、爱情故事、关于疾病的故事。你写过非虚构作品。你跃进了好莱坞。你的书被改编成影视。你非常活跃于网络。就像现在我们坐在这里。你如何理解当下的 John？嗯，

你知道，很长一段时间以来

英文原文

>> And so that's what I would say to them is try to hold on to that. Try to hold on to the fact that there is real magic here and real gifts being made here. Even as the way that the sausage gets made is sometimes distasteful.

Um, I'm a vegetarian, so I love a sausage gives me a metaphor. [laughter]

After the break, John Green on this moment in his career and a few books that made an impression on him when he was young.

[music]

I I want to transition. We've been talking about Hollywood ending specifically for a while, but I want to pan out and I guess I want to start by asking like

how do you understand this moment in your career? Your first book came out what in 2005, which means you've been writing for 21 years. You've written young adult novels, love stories, stories about illness. You've written non-fiction. You've jumped to Hollywood. your books have been adapted. You're very online. Like now we're here. How are you understanding this moment in John? Um, you know, for a long time

成功与“配得感”

我……真的觉得自己配不上拥有的读者群，配不上我的书所取得的成功、我的视频所取得的成功，以及我创作的其他作品所取得的成功。我总觉得，噢，这一切我根本就不配拥有。但“配不配得”本身就是一个错误的认知框架，对吧？就像我哥哥，他作为一名作家或视频创作者，所取得的成功并不是他“应得”的；同样，他得癌症也不是他“应得”的。我也不配得到我所取得的成功，但我也同样不配患上严重的强迫症（OCD）。所以，用“配不配得”来看待这些事情，完全是一个错误的框架。我觉得正确的认知框架应当是：生活既是一场挑战，也是一份礼物。你不知道一路上会遇到怎样的挑战，也不知道一路上会收到怎样的礼物。当我回望过去的21年，我心里想，天哪，我不仅如此幸运，而且还有这么多人愿意和我分享他们内心深处最隐秘的想法，这真是一种莫大的恩赐。

英文原文

I felt uh really unworthy of the audience I had and the success my books had found and my videos had found and other work that I I make has found. And I felt like, oh, I just don't deserve any of this. But deserving is the wrong framework, right? Like my brother doesn't deserve the success that he's had as a writer or or a video maker. He also didn't deserve to get cancer. I don't deserve the success that I've had. I also don't deserve to have severe OCD. Like there deserving is just the wrong framework to through which to think of this stuff. I think the right framework is that life is both a challenge and a gift. And you don't know the challenges that you're going to get along the way. And you don't know the gifts you're going to get along the way. And when I look back at the last 21 years, I think, my god, like not only have I been so lucky, but I've had so many people share their deepest stuff with me, and that's such a blessing.

不过，我想深入聊聊这个“配得感”的概念。你提到了运气，我想借用一下朱妮珀（Juniper）以及她的野心，因为你已经拼搏了21年。所以我想，这其中的复杂之处在于：你觉得自己配不上这份名气，但你又一直在以各种形式非常努力地工作。

英文原文

I though want to dig into this idea of like deserve. You mentioned luck and I want to channel Juniper and her ambition because you've been hustling for 21 years. And so I guess I'm it's this this complexity of I didn't feel like I deserved the fame, but you were working really hard in a variety of forms.

是的。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

包括写作和网络创作。这是你当初所期盼的吗？还是说它的发展已经远远超出了你最狂野的想象？

英文原文

>> Writing and online. Was this what you hoped for or did this kind of grow beyond your wildest imaginations?

名气、连接与出版的焦虑

MJ，这无疑是23岁的我所期盼的。[笑声] 23岁的我，那个低功能的年轻成年的我，极度、极度渴望成功和成名，并且为此非常非常努力地打拼，你知道的。是的，非常非常渴望这些，非常非常想要名人身份所带来的外界认可。我现在没那么想要了，我觉得这是长大成熟、需求发生变化的标志。我现在渴望的是与我最亲密的朋友、与我的家人、与我的孩子们建立深厚的连接，你知道，那才是我现在最看重的连接。

英文原文

>> MJ, this is certainly what 23-year-old me hoped for. [laughter] 23-year-old me, low functioning young adult me was desperate, desperate for success and fame and worked very very hard for it, you know. Yes. Wanted that very very badly. wanted the outside affirmation of of celebrity very very badly. I want it less now, which I think is a sign of just growing up and needing different things. I want deep connection from with my with my closest friends and with my family and with my kids, you know, that's that's what I that's the connection I value most now.

但在我年轻的时候，我真的真的很渴望。而且我至今在某种层面上肯定依然渴望，否则我就不会出书了，对吧？就像……呃，我最近还在想这件事，因为从你写完一本书到这本书正式出版之间，是一段非常令人焦虑煎熬的时光，因为你几乎得不到什么反馈，你根本不知道这本书会被怎样看待，这让我非常焦虑。我……呃[清嗓子]，我当时就在想：天哪，我为什么要出版这本书？我完全可以把它写完后锁进抽屉里，让他们等我死后再出版。[笑声]

英文原文

But when I was young, I really really wanted it. And I still I still must on some level or I wouldn't publish, right? like uh I was I was thinking about that recently because it's such a stressful time between when you finish a book and when the book comes out because you have very little in the way of feedback and you just don't know how the book's going to be received and it makes me very anxious and I um [clears throat] I was thinking like God why did I publish this book? I could have just written it and put it in a drawer and then they could have published it after I died. [laughter]

但我热爱它。我、我对它无比感激。这才是终极答案，那就是：即便它……即便它让我压力巨大，我现在也真的很害怕，但我同样热爱它。我喜欢与读者建立连接。我喜欢收到读者的来信。我喜欢这种……你知道，我觉得在《万物皆结核》（Everything Is Tuberculosis）——也就是我最近写的那本书里，我说过，对我而言，写作就像小孩子在泳池里玩的“马可波罗”（Marco Polo）游戏。你知道那个游戏吧[笑声]，一个人喊“马可、马可、马可”，然后其他所有人都得回应“波罗”。但在写作中，这就像是你一个人在地下室里呆了大概八年，不停地喊着“马可、马可、马可、马可”，然后终于，呃，这本书要在9月22日出版了，希望能有人回应一声“波罗”。而这种连接……呃，这种呼应与共鸣对我来说就是一种魔法。为什么呢？

英文原文

But I love it. I I am so grateful for it. that that's the ultimate answer is that like even though it's even though it stresses me out and I'm really scared right now, I also love it. I love connecting with readers. I love hearing from readers. I love the, you know, I think in everything is tuberculosis, the book I wrote most recently, I said that for me, writing is like the the child's uh pool game, Marco Polo. You know that game [laughter] where like one person says Marco, Marco, Marco, and then all the other people have to say polo. But like with writing, it's like you spend like eight years in your basement saying, "Marco, Marco, Marco, Marco, and then finally uh this book is going to come out on September 22nd and hopefully someone will say Polo." And like that that connection uh that call and response is just magic to me. Why?

嗯，这几乎就像是……我的意思是，我在现实生活中是一个极度内向的人，但我想要给你讲一个故事，

英文原文

Well, it's almost like I mean I'm an extremely introverted person in real life, but I want to tell you a story

而写作是实现这一点的最佳方式。

英文原文

>> and writing is the best way to do that.

我也热爱写作，因为它给了我一个努力把话说精准的机会，而口头表达并不能给我这种机会。

英文原文

I also love writing because it gives me a chance to try to get it right that speaking doesn't give me.

就像等我们结束这次采访，希望你能继续过你的一天，但我可以告诉你接下来发生在我身上的事，那就是我会在接下来的好几个小时里，不断琢磨自己说了什么、没说什么。

英文原文

>> Like we're going to end this interview and hopefully you'll go about your day, but I can tell you what's going to happen to me, which is that I'm going to spend the next several hours thinking about what I said and didn't say.

约翰，你不是一个人，因为采访一结束[笑声]，我也马上会做同样的事。

英文原文

>> John, you're not alone cuz I will be doing the same thing [laughter] right after this.

太好了。太棒了。很高兴至少我们在这点上是一致的。所以事实就是如此。但在写作中，你会有机会去把它修改好。这是我热爱它的一点。而我热爱它的另一点纯粹是因为，这是我自8岁起就一直在采用的自我表达方式。通过故事、通过编织故事来表达。这对我来说就像小孩子的游戏。它带给我的游戏感，是其他任何事物都无法比拟的。

英文原文

>> Good. Great. Glad we're on the same page at least. So that's just the nature of it. But with writing, you get a chance to make it right. That's one thing I love about it. And the other thing I love about it is just that I this is how I've been expressing myself since I was 8 years old. Like through stories, through making up stories. And it feels like child's play to me. It feels like play in a way that

没有任何其他东西能做到。哪怕是其他艺术形式，也无法像写作那样给我一种游戏感，因为写作能把我直接带回当年那个小孩子的状态。

英文原文

>> nothing else does. Like even other forms of art don't feel like play the way writing does because it takes me right back to being that little kid.

是什么让它感觉像是一场游戏？尤其是明知道出版是一件会引发如此强烈焦虑的事情？

英文原文

>> What makes it feel like play, especially knowing that publishing is so anxiety producing?

写作作为礼物与无法抗拒的书

我绝对必须把“它会被出版”这件事抛到脑后。我妻子经常拿我开玩笑，说我每次写书都会跟她说，这本我要用笔名出版。呃，她就会说：“行了吧，我以前又不是没听过。”呃[笑声]，但我每次真的都这么想，因为我会觉得：“噢，这太私密了。这太切中要害、太刺骨了，不能用我自己的名字发表。”然后随着时间推移，我又妥协接受了。但是在写的时候，我必须忘记出版这回事，甚至连“要跟读者分享”这部分也得忘掉。我只需要……

英文原文

>> I definitely have to put out of my mind that it's going to be published. My wife jokes with me that every time I write a book, I tell her that I'm going to publish this one under a pseudonym. Um, and she's like, "Yeah, no, I've heard that before." Uh, [laughter] but I think that every time because I think like, "Oh, this is too intimate. this is too close to the bone to share under my own name. And then over time I reconcile myself to it. But I have to forget about the publishing part when I'm writing or the even even the sharing with readers part. And I just have to

努力去创作一件作品，几乎就像是送给我最亲密的人的礼物一样，如果这么说能讲得通的话。就像我几乎是想去创作一个能让萨拉（Sarah）感到欣喜、让萨拉觉得非常棒的故事。这差不多是我的首要考虑。我很喜欢《纽约客》作家凯瑟琳·舒尔茨（Katherine Schultz）的一句话，呃，她曾发表过一篇关于将要袭击西海岸的大地震的长篇重磅报道，而且……

英文原文

>> try to make something as a gift almost to the people I'm closest to, if that makes sense. Like I almost want to I want to make a story that will delight Sarah and that Sarah will think is great. That's kind of my first priority. There is a quote that I love from the New Yorker writer Katherine Schultz and um she published this giant story about the big earthquake that will hit the West Coast and and

是的，我读过那篇。

英文原文

>> yeah, I read that

它在网络上超级、超级火爆。别人问她：这是否会影响你接下来挑选报道的故事？对于这种关注和名气你是怎么看的？她说这影响不到她，因为引述原话：“让一个故事变得美好的部分原因，在于你迫不及待地想要把它讲出来。”是的，我当时正是迫不及待地想把这个故事讲出来，这几乎就像是，最终被写出来的书，是那一本强烈要求被写出来的书。你知道，这算是一个不小的转变，MJ，相信你能想象得到，在你的职业生涯中大部分时间都在写青少年文学，然后突然打电话给你的出版商，说你为成年人写了一部结核病历史。[笑声]

英文原文

>> it went super super viral and they asked her does that influence what stories you pick up next? How do you feel about about the attention the theme? And she says it doesn't impact her because quote part of what makes a story beautiful is the fact that you're dying to tell it. Yeah, I was dying to tell this story and it's almost like the book that gets written is the one that demands to be written, you know, like it was a little bit of a jump, MJ, as I'm sure you can imagine when you have mostly written young adult literature in your career to call your publisher and say you've written a history of tuberculosis for grown-ups. [laughter]

但那是一本必须被写出来的书。就像……

英文原文

But that was a book that had to be written. Like

为什么？

英文原文

>> why?

它就是必须被写出来。我……因为我当时生命中有那么多的时间都花在思考上——我的意思是，现在依然如此，但当时极其强烈——花在思考这种极端的、难以想象的不公义上：一种自1955年以来就可以治愈的疾病，如今每年依然导致超过一百万人死亡。我就是无法去想别的事情。我读不进别的东西。我也写不出别的东西。而在我创作《好莱坞结局》（Hollywood Ending）的那段时期——在那几部非虚构作品之间有些断断续续，但在过去的两年里基本是不间断地创作——我、我除了这两个努力在此类境遇中求生存的年轻人之外，什么也写不出来，因为在某个节点上，这本书变得无可阻挡、无法抗拒。那其实是一个非常令人紧绷忧虑的时刻，但对我而言也是一个非常有趣的时刻。

英文原文

It just had to I because so much of so much of my life was was at the time spent think I mean still but very much at the time was spent thinking about this radical unfathomable injustice that a disease that's been curable since 1955 still kills over a million people every year. And I just couldn't think about anything else. I couldn't read about anything else. I couldn't write about anything else. And in the periods where I was writing Hollywood Ending, which was sort of hit and miss between those non-fiction books and then for the last two years pretty much non-stop, I I couldn't write about anything other than these these two young people trying to survive this stuff because the book becomes undeniable at some point. And that's a really it's actually a really fraught moment, but a really fun moment for me.

好莱坞机制与全员卷入的机器

是什么让《好莱坞结局》在当下变得无法抗拒？我之所以这么问，是因为你多年来一直在写作，而且你见识好莱坞这套运转机制也很多年了。我想《星运里的错》（The Fault in Our Stars）电影应该是2014年上映的吧。2026年是有什么特别之处？这个世界发生了什么？约翰身上又发生了什么，让这本书在当下感觉变得不可抗拒？

英文原文

>> What made Hollywood ending undeniable now? And I ask that because you've been writing again for many many years and you've seen the Hollywood apparatus for many years. I think what the fault in our stars movie came out in 2014. What was it about 2026? What was it about the world? What about what was it about John that made this book feel undeniable now?

嗯，我的个人生活里确实有一些事情让它变得无法抗拒，但我认为让它变得无法抗拒的最大因素在于：如今每个人都在参与到这台机器之中。每个人既是劳动力，又是原材料。我们都在为了公众消费而精心构建关于我们自己、关于我们的工作以及关于我们家庭的叙事。而所有这一切，都在被五六家由极其富有的人经营的特大跨国公司充当媒介进行调解与中介。这与好莱坞并没有太大的不同。所以，这不再是……

英文原文

Well, there were certainly uh things within my private life that made it undeniable, but I think the biggest thing that made it undeniable was the fact that now everyone is participating in the machine. Everyone is both the labor and the raw material. We are all crafting narratives about ourselves and about our work and about our families for public consumption. And all of that is being intermediated by five or six extremely large corporations run by extremely wealthy people. And that's not so different from Hollywood. And so instead of this being,

“噢，看这些可怜的小富家子弟，以及他们那些微不足道的富家小毛病。”

英文原文

>> oh, look at these poor little rich kids and their poor little rich kid problems.

它真的已经变成了我们所有人都深陷其中的现实。

英文原文

It really has become something that we're all part of.

是的。我们过去谈论社交……

英文原文

>> Yeah. When we used to speak about social

媒体上，我们过去常说“来看看我的个人资料”或“来看看我的主页”。而现在我们说的是“来看看我的频道”、“来看看我的平台”。这种想法，即哪怕是个人、微小的创作者——就像我们并不身处这个行业——现在都像是在用大众传播职责的话语来谈论我们自己的私生活，对此我深感着迷。

英文原文

media, we used to say visit my profile or visit my page. And now we say visit my channel, visit my platform. The idea that even individual people, small like we're not in the industry, small creators are now like using the language of mass distribution responsibility for our own private lives, which I'm fascinated by.

我们的私生活正在被大众传播，对吧？因为在这些多对多的平台上，你是无法知晓的。比如你在 Facebook 上发了一条关于离婚或小猫生病的帖子，你不知道它是否只会让你的朋友看到。除非你真的仔细检查了设置，确保它只对朋友可见。否则，它可能会被成千上万、甚至数十万人看到。那种病毒式传播的感觉非常令人陶醉，但同时也极具迷惑性，归根结底与成名并没有太大分别。

英文原文

>> Our our private lives are being mass distributed, right? Because in these many to many platforms, you don't know. Like you put a Facebook post up about your divorce or about your sick kitten and you don't know that it will only be seen by your friends. You know, unless you really go through the settings and make sure that it will only be seen by your friends. It could be seen by tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. And that feeling of virality is very intoxicating, but also very disorienting and not that different from fame in the end.

是的。太可怕了。确实可怕。我可不想在这么可怕的话题上收尾。关于《好莱坞式结局》（Hollywood Ending），你能跟我分享一个趣事吗？你在书中塞进去的一则轶事、一个小花絮，是让你感到兴奋的；随后我想聊聊你的推荐书单。

英文原文

>> Yeah. Terrifying. Terrifying. I don't want to end on a terrifying note. Can you tell me one fun fact about Hollywood ending? One tidbit, one nugget that you squeezed in to this book that you're excited about and then I want to get to recommendations.

让我想想该怎么回答。让我想想谈到什么程度的个人层面，因为涉及到个人层面的问题在于，MJ，一旦你说出了某件事，它就公布出去了，对吧？它就不再只属于你了。哦，我把我的演员朋友们写了进去，彩蛋形式只有他们自己能看懂，这让我觉得非常开心。

英文原文

>> Let me let me think about how to answer that. Let me think about how personal to get because the thing about being personal, MJ, is that once you say something, it's out there, right? Like it's not it's not yours anymore. Oh, uh, I had a great time referencing my friends who are actors in ways that only they will see.

好的。所以我们不会知道那些引用的指涉是什么，这倒成了一个有趣的谜题，因为现在我们在阅读时会把每句话都看作：“这是个彩蛋指涉吗？这意味着什么呢？”［笑声］所以，你不仅给了朋友们一个彩蛋，同时也给读者提供了一种有趣的阅读方式。不过在我们结束之前，你既是读者，也是作家，热爱书籍。我想了解，你能否推荐五本对你产生深远影响的书？因为你的作品影响了那么多人。我想知道，究竟是什么作品打动并塑造了你。

英文原文

Okay. So, we won't know what those references are, which is kind of a fun puzzle cuz now we can read like everything and be like, "This is a reference. This is what does it mean?" [laughter] So, you've given an Easter egg to your friends, but then also um a fun way of reading this to the reader. But before we go, you are a reader, you're a writer, you love books. I want to know, can you recommend five books that made an impression on you? Because your books have made an impression on so many other people. I want to know what has worked on you.

影响深远的书籍与推荐

嗯，尤其是在我年轻的时候，《麦田里的守望者》（Catcher in the Rye）对我产生了巨大的影响。托妮·莫里森（Toni Morrison）的《苏拉》（Sula），或者我也能说是《最蓝的眼睛》（The Bluest Eye）。两者任选其一都可以。嗯，我还可以说是《所罗门之歌》（Song of Solomon）。所有这些书都是我在高中时读的，它们点亮了我，因为托妮·莫里森是我读到的第一位让我明白文学并非某种冰冷死寂之物的作家，文学是此时此刻正在发生的鲜活事物，是扣人心弦、令人激动、纯粹令人沉醉的，语言所能达成的一切竟是如此不可思议。嗯，所以这一下子就是三本了，但我打算把它们算作一本。［笑声］

英文原文

>> Well, especially when I was young, Catcher and the Rye made a huge impression on me. Sula by Tony Morrison or I could say The Bluest Eye. I could say either of those. Um, I could say Song of Solomon. all of those books I read in high school and they lit me up because Tony Morrison was the first writer I read who who helped me understand that literature was not some cold dead place that it was something that was happening now and that was like thrilling and exciting and and just intoxicating and so so amazing what could be accomplished with language. Um so that's three right there, but I'm going to I'm going to count that as one. [laughter]

我们谈论的是文字，不是数学。

英文原文

We're talking about words, not math.

嗯，迈克尔·夏邦（Michael Chabon）的《匹兹堡的秘密》（The Mysteries of Pittsburgh）。我读了那本书。那是我读过的第一本以酷儿为主角的书。也是我第一次阅读一本描写二十岁出头年轻人生活的书，它给我留下了深刻的印象，长远地塑造了我的创作。嗯，天哪，还有什么呢？库尔特·冯内古特（Kurt Vonnegut）的《五号屠场》（Slaughterhouse-Five）。那是我在高中时读的，后来我在阿拉巴马大学听了库尔特·冯内古特的演讲；关于高中的事我几乎记不得什么了，但我清楚地记得那一夜的所有细节。嗯，然后我要列出的最后一本对我产生长远影响的书，是佐拉·尼尔·赫斯顿（Zora Neale Hurston）的《他们眼望上苍》（Their Eyes Were Watching God）。那本书一直陪伴着我。这些年来我重读过很多次，能拥有一本让你伴随成长的书是件很有趣的事，书中的文字未曾改变，但故事却改变了，因为你自己改变了；对我来说，《他们眼望上苍》就是这样一本书。

英文原文

>> Um, The Mysteries of Pittsburgh by Michael Shaban. I read that book. It was the first book I ever read with a queer main character. First time I'd ever read a book um about someone in their early 20s and had made a huge impression on me, shaped my work in a long-term way. Um gosh, what else? Uh the Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonagget. I read that when I was in high school and then I heard Kurt Vonagget speak at the University of Alabama and there's very little I remember from high school but I remember everything about that night. Um and then the last book I'll site from that really has had a long-term impact on me is uh Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zorn Hursten. That book has um has stayed with me. I've reread it a lot through the years and it's fun to have a book that you kind of grow up with like where the words don't change but the story changes because you do and I that's that their eyes were watching God is that book for me.

那个故事随着你的改变发生了怎样的变化？［叹气］

英文原文

>> How has that story changed because you've changed? [sighs]

嗯，初读时，我只是爱上了其中的语言，并未深入去体会故事本身。而现在我对它的理解更多的是……其实与我对《麦田里的守望者》的感受相似，曾经我将其读作喜剧，如今读来却是一出悲剧。

英文原文

>> Well, when I f when I first read it I I I just kind of fell in love with the language and didn't really follow the story that much. And now I think about it more as um it's similar to my relationship with Catcher actually where like um I read it once as comedy and now as tragedy.

确实是这样。我觉得大家在高中经常读那本书，因为你跟随着的是一个年轻、极度焦虑的青少年。而我实际上是在毕业后才第一次读到它。当时我已成年，我彻底被它的悲伤所震撼。

英文原文

>> Yes. Yes. I feel like we read that books frequently in high school because you are following this young very angsty teenager. I actually first read it after I graduated. I was an adult and I was just struck by how sad it was.

太令人难过了。真的很悲伤。依我看，［笑声］《麦田里的守望者》属于人们读得非常糟糕的那类书。比如——

英文原文

>> It's so sad. It's so sad. Catcher is one of those books that people read really poorly [laughter] in my opinion. Like

怎么讲？

英文原文

>> how so?

我只是觉得人们读它时不够宽容。我认为很多时候人们的反应就像是：“哦，这孩子，在纽约闲逛游荡了两天，能上寄宿学校，生活过得相当优渥。”我在高中时对它也有些不屑一顾。尽管它对我影响很大，但我几乎就像是——我谈论《麦田里的守望者》的方式与我对它的真实感受截然不同，因为我曾被告知，以一种觉得它有点烂的口吻去谈论它，才是很酷的谈论方式。

英文原文

>> I just don't think people read it very generously. I think a lot of times people are like, "Oh, this kid, you know, buming around New York for a couple days who's gets to go to boarding school and has a pretty good life." And and I was a little dismissive of it in high school, too. Even though it had a big impact on me, I was almost like like I like the way I talked about Catcher and the Rye was different from the way I felt about Catcher and the Ry because I'd been told that talking about it as if it kind of sucked was the cool way to talk about it.

《麦田里的守望者》确实有一些在 21 世纪看来极具争议、对我完全没有吸引力的方面。但它确实有着极为深刻的悲伤。这完全是一个如此令人难过的故事，讲述了一个孩子——你知道的——只是极度、极其渴望能以一种他无法获得的方式被爱。

英文原文

>> And there are aspects of Catcher that are super problematic and like don't don't appeal to me at all in in the 21st century. But um it is profoundly sad. It is it is such a sad story of of a kid who, you know, just just desperately desperately wants to be loved in a way that he he can't be.

是啊。哇。在这个书单里，我还想说的是，当你提到喜欢《苏拉》时我非常激动，因为我也很喜欢《苏拉》。那是我个人最喜爱的书之一。也是托妮·莫里森作品中我最钟爱的一本。

英文原文

>> Yeah. Wow. Out of this list, I also want to say I was so excited when you said you love Sula cuz I also love Sula. That's one of my top favorite books overall. It's my favorite. Tony Morrison.

哇。那可是个重磅评价。

英文原文

>> Wow. That's a that's a big that's a big statement.

我知道。我知道。那本书核心的友谊描绘得太完美了。

英文原文

>> I know. I know. It's the friendship that's at the center of that book is so perfectly drawn.

确实。

英文原文

>> Yes.

无可挑剔。它确实——这是部篇幅不大的书，或许在野心上不如《所罗门之歌》或《宠儿》（Beloved），但它之所以完美，是因为你在其中找不到任何一个你想改动的字词。

英文原文

>> Perfect. It's it is without it's a small book and maybe like it's not as ambitious of Song of as Song of Solomon or as Beloved, but like it is perfect in the sense that it there's not a word you would change in it.

一个字都不用改。

英文原文

>> Not a single word.

是的。

英文原文

>> Yeah.

这些是过往影响过你的书。我还有最后一个问题。现在有什么书是让你非常期待的吗？你一直大力支持新书和新锐作家。比如你推荐了《殉道者！》（Martyr!），那本书在标点运用上也很有巧思，用感叹号取代了逗号。你也支持过像《明天，明天，又是明天》（Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow）这样的书。2026 年有什么书是让你真正感到兴奋的？

英文原文

>> Those are past books that have influenced you. I have one last question. What's a book that you are really excited about now? You are a very big champion of new books, emerging writers. You champion Martyr, for instance, that also has a punctuation play instead of a comma that has a an exclamation mark. You were a champion of books like Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow. What's a book that you are really excited about from 2026?

嗯，我推荐一本现已出版的。佩奇·刘易斯（Paige Lewis）的《佳作》（Canon）。关于《佳作》，我觉得可以这样介绍：我敢向你保证，你从未读过像《佳作》这样的书，因为此前根本无人写过此类作品。它完全独树一帜。这是一部非二元性别的史诗巨作。它打破了一切既有预期。它诙谐幽默，又离奇古怪，并且绝对令人赞叹不已。另外，还有一本即将出版、我由衷喜爱的作品，是罗宾·沃瑟曼（Robin Wasserman）写的《我们中有些人可能会死》（Some of Us May Die），关于人工智能，探索永生之旅，以及在面对悲伤和失去时这一切对我们究竟意味着什么。好了，任务清单已经交代完毕。去读那本书吧，去读《佳作》，也去读《好莱坞式结局》。［音乐］约翰，这次谈话太棒了。非常感谢你能来做客。

英文原文

>> Well, I'll give you one that's out now. Canon by Paige Lewis. Um, I think the line to share about canon is uh I can promise you that you've never read a book like canon because uh nobody has. It is utterly itself. Uh it's an it's a non-binary epic. It shatters every expectation. It is hilarious. It is strange. It is it is absolutely wondrous. And then um a a book that's coming out that I really loved is a book by Robin Wasserman called Some of Us May Die about artificial intelligence and um the the the quest for eternal life and what all that means for us when it comes to grappling with grief and loss. All right, so you've got your marching orders. Go read that book. Go read Canon and go read Hollywood [music] Ending. John, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us.

噢，真是太有趣了。谢谢你，MJ。［音乐］

英文原文

>> Oh, it's been so fun. Thank you, MJ. [music]

本期书评节目由萨拉·戴蒙德（Sarah Diamond）、艾米·珀尔（Amy Pearl）和帕特里夏·苏巴兰（Patricia Subaran）制作，本周由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯（Daniel Ramirez）混音。［音乐］原创音乐由丹·鲍威尔（Dan Powell）和阿丽西亚·尤普（Alicia Eup）创作。特别鸣谢达利亚·哈达德（Dalia Hadad）。我们很想知道大家对［音乐］节目的看法，请发送电子邮件至 thebookreview@nytimes.com。我是 MJ·富兰克林（MJ Franklin），代表吉尔伯特·克鲁兹（Gilbert Cruz）。感谢大家的收听。

英文原文

>> The book review is produced by Sarah Diamond, Amy Pearl, and Patricia Subaran, and mixed this week by Daniel Ramirez. [music] Original music by Dan Powell and Alicia Eup. Special thanks to Dalia Hadad. We want to hear what you think about [music] the show, so send us an email at the bookreview@ny times.com. I'm MJ [music] Franklin and for Goa Cruz. Thanks for listening.