Nicolai Tangen: Hi everybody. I'm Nicolai Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund. And today I'm in particularly good company because I'm here with Andrew Forrest who is visiting us in Oslo. And Andrew, he is the chairman and CEO of Fortescue, one of the incredible companies in Australia, a mining company. You started it in 2003 against all odds. It's done extremely well taking on uh you know the incumbents. And now you are making an even bigger bet running this as a zero fossil fuel company by 2030 with no offsets. And then you're giving away billions. So warm welcome to Oslo. You are the type of guy we like.

Andrew Forrest: Thank you. Great to be here.

Nicolai Tangen: You know, normally I would dive in and talk about the business, but it's just you have got such an incredible background and can we just start with a beginning, you know, your birth?

Andrew Forrest: Yeah. Okay.

Nicolai Tangen: Where were you I mean where were you born and how was your upbringing?

Andrew Forrest: Uh in Western Australia. um immediately uh on a big sheep and cattle station. It's about bit shy of a million hectares. Sounds like a lot of land here in Norway, but over there it's it's not that big. It's normal.

Nicolai Tangen: school in the middle of the wilderness.

Andrew Forrest: Yeah. But actually by boarding school uh from I think it's eight or nine I went to boarding school. But my early years were by school of the air. You literally had a radio schedule for 30 minutes each day. Um and kids from like 500 kilometers radius used to jump on this scared we used to call it school of the air and that was all cool and groovy for the other kids to speak on a radio to their teacher 4 500 km away but not for a kid with a bad stutter and I had a very bad stutter so I found.

Nicolai Tangen: how long did that lastly challenging

Andrew Forrest: I didn't kick it really till I entered the school debating team so it was either

Nicolai Tangen: do or die

Andrew Forrest: um as when I was about 15 16 I started to kick the

Nicolai Tangen: Were you given a hard time when you was small?

Andrew Forrest: Yeah. You get teased a lot. I mean that's how it was in those days.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. Exactly. So this is all revenge of the nerd. [laughter]

Andrew Forrest: Exactly.

Nicolai Tangen: Good. Now um before um forc you started something called Anaconda Nickel which didn't go so well. Well, see, I'd protest that enormously, but the lessons from it

Andrew Forrest: uh were spectacular. I But look, let's just talk about Anaconda. So, it started from nothing like like Fordscq. We did a $ 1.4 billion uh financing, which that back then a billion dollars had a lot of respect.

Nicolai Tangen: It's a long time ago.

Andrew Forrest: Um and it was bringing in a new technology which has stood the test of time. Like it got taken over by Glen Core. it's now their purest nickel and cobalt metal for for batteries, cathodes, etc. supply. Um, so but you know, I was a I was a I was like a kid, right? So I didn't kick off with a big percentage. You know, you immediately got pushed around by big shareholders. Um, and of course being a naive kid, I thought, well, if I enter into contracts, then surely the company will be protected. Now, I've learned a big lesson from that. Never rely on contracts. rely on people because uh it was a innovative techn technology um innovative flowheet huge like straight up to 45,000 tons of nickel 3 and a half thousand tons of cobalt 2 km long 1 km wide utilizing about a third of Perth's water supply but it had to discover all its own water out in a desert I mean it had everything going against it um but it had this big type of nickel deposit which no one could commercialize except for this particular technology which was breaking tech. So I built this huge plant on the back of a big engineering company who said we'll guarantee it. It's called lump sum fixed price. Anyway, they did guarantee it but they took some shortcuts. So on a lump sum contract you pay them the amount of money you agree and if they can build it for less that's more money in their pocket. And they took too many opportunities like that. It was a company called Flu Corporation and the process uh failed from the outset and we had to rebuild it

Nicolai Tangen: and we had to rebuild things which really shouldn't have failed like an acid plant, a power station, a pressure let down system. These are fairly basic technologies. They weren't part of the innovative system.

Andrew Forrest: But but you left that company then. Well, I did because uh before my 40th birthday, I reached an agreement. Glen Cor coming in there saying, "Oh, we're gonna blame you for everything." I said, "You can't do that." But

Nicolai Tangen: people want people want us in this podcast to talk a bit more about things that went wrong, you know, because everything goes so well.

Andrew Forrest: Yeah.

Nicolai Tangen: So, what what uh just a few

Andrew Forrest: So, I'm happy to talk about it.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to spend a lot of time because we want to spend away the huge successes you've had subsequently, but just what did you learn from it? What did it do to you?

Andrew Forrest: Look, I touched on it. Contracts behind and way behind people. Now if I'd relied on people I could do at Fortscue, we've run into equally big problems at Forscq. But if you have a passionate group of people committed to the same set of values, so you're running with the same culture, galloping with the same culture, then you run into these huge problems and you don't dive to lawyers, which

Nicolai Tangen: But what do you think about the world? And the world now is moving more towards lawyers and litigations and contracts and all that all that stuff.

Andrew Forrest: Well, we weren't. I mean, and I think that's probably why we've been able to move with such speed and be so successful because I believe in people. I believe in taking a a a group of people around you. Could be from every part of the world, black, white, brindle, any sex you like, who cares?

Nicolai Tangen: and that and we will come back to your 10 values which I like a lot.

Nicolai Tangen: Now then you started forsq in 2003.

Andrew Forrest: Yes.

Nicolai Tangen: Tell me about it.

Andrew Forrest: Fortune 2003 kicked off with a well it it was like Anaconda a concept stock. I announced that I was going to take on the iron ore industry but not adversarily but through building a railway and port system which they could all share. Now BHP, Rio Tinto, even Valet, they all owned and tightly held their railway and port, which kept their monopolies complete and used them to stop anyone else entering. Now, I didn't really get that. So, I said, I'll build a port rail system and we can all share it. We can all do well and I'll just be an infrastructure provider. And they've really said, "Well, how does get stuff sound?" So, this is how they tried to keep you out. Yeah.

Nicolai Tangen: Did you have any money when you started up 40sq?

Andrew Forrest: I think I had a mortgage. That's about it. But I had a belief that we could do it. I knew that if we were going to take on this industry, we had to build infrastructure bigger than anyone had built. And the investment banks of the world said, "Andrew, you have a company that's worth maybe $20 million, and you want to borrow $3 billion plus. It cannot be done. Don't waste your time. You can't debt finance a greenfield project." But I went and knocked on hundreds of doors, and eventually, people listened to the story and agreed to support. They said, "Andrew, if you have faith in your country, we have faith in you." And we raised what was at the time the largest high-yield bond issue ever done outside the United States. That made history, and that put us on the path.

Nicolai Tangen: During the construction, did you have moments where you thought, "This is it. We are going to go bust?"

Andrew Forrest: Oh, so many times. For instance, we had a 100-mile railway, and we had to cut through a hard rock ridge. The contractor said, "We cannot do this in time. We need more money." And we were down to the last dollar. We had no money left. I had to go to the site and tell the workers, "Look, we need to work day and night. If we finish early, everyone gets a bonus. If we don't, we can't pay you next week and we all go home." The guys on the ground were incredible. They said, "Andrew, we've got your back." They worked like hell, and we finished the railway ahead of time and ran the first train. It was a miracle.

Nicolai Tangen: What's the key to success in China?

Andrew Forrest: Well, it's a contact sport, right? So it's rough and tumble. And uh and look, I had to sell iron ore to the independent private steel mills in China that were outside the control of the big cartels. Because the incumbents had locked up all the major state-owned enterprises. They couldn't deal with everyone. There were enough small mills and rebels who were willing to back us, as long as we could deliver. I had to build deep personal relationships. I visited steel mills all over China, speaking directly with their managers and founders. In that culture, trust is built on long-term relationships and mutual commitment. Once they believed we would deliver on our word, they supported us fully. Even today, China remains Fortescue's most important market, and those early relationships are still strong.

Nicolai Tangen: Are you worried that that hunger for success will disappear in your own family?

Andrew Forrest: You know, it's a great question. It's typical, mate. Um, so what we did with our kids: when they were young, we took them to the poorest parts of the world. We took them to Nepal, to slums in Africa, so they could see the inequality in the world. We told them that having wealth is not for luxury, but it means huge responsibility. We set up the Minderoo Foundation and made it clear to our children that the majority of our wealth would go back to society to make the world better. They did not expect to inherit massive personal fortunes; instead, they became passionate about what we are doing. We said, "We will put this capital into ending modern slavery, saving the oceans, and fighting climate change." And they said, "Sounds great by us. That's where that capital should go."

Nicolai Tangen: And well, you and I we you and I we are aligned there. And but we'll get back to

Andrew Forrest: Wolf, you've done your research. Um,

Nicolai Tangen: what happened?

Andrew Forrest: It it was late 2015. Uh, it was a kind of life-changing event. I was hiking through Croatia, and I just realized I need to do something for the oceans. I realized that if I didn't have real expertise, I couldn't make a genuine impact. So I decided to do a PhD in marine ecology.

Nicolai Tangen: How did it change your thinking about life?

Andrew Forrest: Look, all I mean what it did is just made me realize we cannot just be an extractor. We have to understand the damage we are doing to the biosphere. Studying the ocean taught me about plastic pollution, overfishing, and temperature rise. It made me determined to use this very successful heavy industry, heavy mining company to prove that heavy industry can go green.

Nicolai Tangen: How old were you then?

Andrew Forrest: Uh that was that was in uh 2016 I applied. So, um you work it out, mate.

Nicolai Tangen: So, you're 64 now. You were 54.

Andrew Forrest: Yeah. 54. Yeah.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. Why did you want to study the ocean?

Andrew Forrest: Oh, because it's it's it's the most important and vulnerable system. I grew up in the outback but I always loved the ocean. If we want to save the planet, we must save the oceans.

Nicolai Tangen: Ah, that's a big question. So what the study of marine

Andrew Forrest: in in relative short?

Nicolai Tangen: Okay, I'll be quick.

Andrew Forrest: The study of marine ecology taught me the four major threats to the ocean: plastics, temperature rise, acidity, and overfishing. I was able to do papers in my thesis on the first two. But climate change is the driver of all of this. That's why I decided to pivot Fortescue to green energy, specifically green hydrogen and electrification.

Nicolai Tangen: a bit a bit of a tacky question in here. How much money did you have then?

Andrew Forrest: Uh tacky question. Yeah. I I had a third of the company say 20 billion.

Nicolai Tangen: Um was $60 billion company.

Andrew Forrest: Yes.

Nicolai Tangen: So 20 you got 20 billion. You do a PhD in marine ecology and decide to focus in

Andrew Forrest: Yes. And to use this very successful heavy industry, heavy mining company. Every

Nicolai Tangen: And I thought, "What? Mining and heavy industry?" Yeah, they're the two hardest.

Andrew Forrest: "This company is going to is is going to be the one that changes." M and so yes, we we we studied it for years and years and years. Uh um the the first target we set is real zero emissions (scope 1 and 2) by 2030, with no offsets. And we're on track and probably ahead of track.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. No, super impressive. And now you're also into electrification, green, grid, and these kind of things.

Andrew Forrest: Yeah. Very seriously. Look, uh uh an oil minister of Saudi Arabia, a few back around said, "When we can ship sunlight and wind as hydrogen, we will." And we are doing that. We are building massive solar and wind in our mines to power our heavy trucks, trains, and mining equipment.

Nicolai Tangen: I think that um no other minor have no other mining company has followed your direction here.

Andrew Forrest: No no no we have I mean look no other miner followed me into iron or no other miner followed me into China. Then they will all follow. But they will watch until that happens. And that that is happening. We're already starting to save operating cost and showing it makes economic sense. until they turn green. And that's my message to the world. If you don't believe in green, wait until your cost of capital goes up and your customers leave you.

Nicolai Tangen: Some pretty high-profile people disagree with you on a few things.

Andrew Forrest: Yeah, apparently. What are some of the public I I love this kind of stuff, you know.

Nicolai Tangen: Ah, look, um, well, we're clearly, uh, going green in the first place. Everyone

Andrew Forrest: But I mean, the American president has named you.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. Busk has named you.

Andrew Forrest: Yeah. Well, that's okay. But you But I still I still feel the world's making a huge mistake on energy transition, which is subsidizing fossil fuels. Humidity kills. You call the fossil fuel seals for oligarchs, fruit cakes, invaders.

Nicolai Tangen: No. Well, I said I said if you want to protect yourself from oligarchs, fruitcakes, invaders, you should go green.

Andrew Forrest: Yes, because green energy is local and distributed. No one can cut off your wind or sun.

Nicolai Tangen: What do you think about diesel fuel tax credits?

Andrew Forrest: Well, that's part of the subsidies. I mean, that locks in everyone to just consume diesel. It's crazy. And it's stopping all these other companies from changing. because and by the way they pay us to compete with them. So not only we bigger and highly profitable, but we get paid by the government for diesel? I mean, it's crazy. And it's and it's stopping stopping all these others from changing. why should we change? The government doesn't want us to change. The government's paying us to buy diesel. It's nuts.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah. I just I love it. I I I cannot wait to read it. It's you know like maong you know. [laughter] Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

Andrew Forrest: Thank you.

Nicolai Tangen: What are the what are the most what are the most important values in your in your culture?

Andrew Forrest: you know. So, it's it gives you an understanding that um of that urgency of green.

Nicolai Tangen: Are the values your personal values as well? Is this how you run your life?

Andrew Forrest: They are, as you ask.

Nicolai Tangen: It's [laughter] funny that, isn't it? How personal values define company values?

Andrew Forrest: Yeah, they are. Yeah. I haven't been asked that question, but you've put it on the table. Yeah. Now, look, I'm imperfect, right? I You They're very hard to keep to all 10 values all the time.

Nicolai Tangen: Okay. Um, one on courage and determination.

Andrew Forrest: Yes, sir.

Nicolai Tangen: Hit the crocodile closest to your kind of canoe. What is that?

Andrew Forrest: Crocodile closest to your canoe. It means It means don't get distracted when you are under pressure. Focus on the immediate threat to survival first before worrying about the rest.

Nicolai Tangen: Be the most positive person in every group. Why? First of all, why are you so positive?

Andrew Forrest: Well, I don't think you can be a negative leader. I don't think I've never heard of a successful negative leader. Optimism is infectious, and it brings out the best in people.

Nicolai Tangen: Say what you mean. Mean what you say.

Andrew Forrest: Yes, that that's pretty clear. Yeah, that's pretty clear.

Nicolai Tangen: Be in the deep end of the pool.

Andrew Forrest: Okay, that's learning to swim.

Nicolai Tangen: Yeah, that that means as soon as you're comfortable with where you are, step out further. Become uncomfortable again. Try and get us to do the impossible.

Andrew Forrest: Yeah, we are one family. I mean, what that's the that's critical.

Nicolai Tangen: Sure. But what do you do with people who don't perform?

Andrew Forrest: We find Look, if we find people if they stick to the 10 values and they live and work in the company, we support them. We find the right place for them. But if they don't align with the values, they cannot stay in the family.

Nicolai Tangen: Exactly. Exactly.

Nicolai Tangen: AI how is that going to change the company?

Andrew Forrest: Well AI already is changing the company. I mean we we have an operating cost that is extremely low, partly because of our automated haulage systems.

Nicolai Tangen: Do you enjoy driving them?

Andrew Forrest: Well, they drive themselves.

Nicolai Tangen: Oh yeah.

Andrew Forrest: They're fully automated.

Nicolai Tangen: Fully automated.

Andrew Forrest: And the other is operating a green grid. You know, we have this massive distributed solar and wind system, and AI heals that grid through a distributed battery system and artificial intelligence to balance fluctuations in real time. you wouldn't see it flicker. It would just be seamless. And it's it's freakish for electrical engineers because you used to need giant synchronous generators to do that. Now you can have a distributed system with nothing bigger than a than a shipping container. So it is going to transform the world as we know it. We call them smart grids.

Nicolai Tangen: Very interesting. Um, circling back to foundation and philanthropy, you set up your Minderoo Foundation early on.

Andrew Forrest: Um, I think for the world um uh the natural world, it's the oceans. Now, we've got a massive focus on saving the oceans. But for humanity, our biggest focus is ending modern slavery.

Nicolai Tangen: How do you attack attack that problem?

Andrew Forrest: Well, first we brought it to light. um we measure slavery in every part of the world. We set up Walk Free and the Global Slavery Index. We found over 50 million people are in modern slavery today. We pressure governments and companies. They're not going to want to have someone operate as a slave. But there are industries that hide it. It requires transparency and legislation. We pushed for the Modern Slavery Act in Australia and the UK.

Nicolai Tangen: Where do you get your energy from?

Andrew Forrest: Where do you get yours? [laughter]

Nicolai Tangen: I get mine from talking to people like you, but you you just been sleeping a couple of nights on trains and that kind of stuff, traveling everywhere.

Andrew Forrest: I um Yeah. No, I look, I absolutely love life. I did actually witness some very sad things, which makes me value life even more and gives me that urgency. And most important thing, keep an optimistic view of life. That's the key.

Nicolai Tangen: How do you think? How do you unwind?

Andrew Forrest: How do you what?

Nicolai Tangen: Unwind. How do you relax?

Andrew Forrest: Oh, unwind. What's that again? [laughter] Um, uh, I unwind by dropping my phone. I love to get out of the wilderness in Norway. I love to get out of the wilderness in Australia.

Nicolai Tangen: Have you got horses?

Andrew Forrest: Yeah. Yeah. And I

Nicolai Tangen: You're a good rider.

Andrew Forrest: I can stay aboard. But no, look, look, whenever I

Nicolai Tangen: You barbecue?

Andrew Forrest: Yeah, sure. [laughter] Yeah, of course.

Nicolai Tangen: Of course you do. Um, now when you look at everything you've done, what are you most proud of?

Andrew Forrest: Oh, coming on this podcast mate, of course, being a guest of yours, one of the most proud moments, mate. [laughter]

Nicolai Tangen: What are you What are you the most proud of?

Andrew Forrest: Oh, okay. Back to the story. Um, okay. Oh, Nikolai, I think I think probably employing people, making a difference in people's lives.

Nicolai Tangen: How many people?

Andrew Forrest: Uh look, if you include construction, probably over 100,000 people. Um we keep now about 25 30,000 people within the private equity um the foundation and the mining company.

Nicolai Tangen: And if you were to translate that into advice for young people,

Andrew Forrest: yeah, I'd say I'd say simply that. I mean, it it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. If you want to live a happy life, that's really really what you should think of. um you know how to live your most fulfilling life and I'd say always think of being useful that's useful to others in particular be useful and enjoy it

Nicolai Tangen: I would say you have been very useful to very many people and you for sure have enjoyed it it's been a great pleasure

Andrew Forrest: thank you sir it's been great being aboard this podcast famous podcast by the way one of the best in the world so I'm very grateful

Nicolai Tangen: thank you so much thank you [TRANSCRIPT_END]