hi everybody and welcome to in Good Company I'm Nicola tangan and the CEO of the Norwegian wealth fund and today we have an incredible guest Robin Zang the founder and CEO of catl the world largest battery producer now it's not only the world largest it's got a whopping 40% of this Mega Market wow

so Robin how did this come about how is it possible to end up with 40% of such a big Market

no no not not yet 40% okay to be correct it's 37.5% something that less than 40 but I think the most important is L products definitely the market need a lot of right products to do the uh immobility so right product you need the right uh technology so in our world is more like a ra chemical ra material which really have a good product

so this group product is a finished to the purpose of the consumer that's why consumer really love that that's why the customers alls would like to make these products and put this product into their car that's why we can power the millions of cars

so um despite your uh incredible Market position there may be some listeners who don't uh know what your products are so just uh very briefly what type of products do you have

we have h two major product one is the battery we call a battery for the immobility so you can have the product in the Tesla's car model 3 Model Y so in all the Chinese car makers or also in many of omm's cars so this battery we call to power the whole car so is a b b

another product is we make a battery for the energy storage you know all the renewable energy like a wind turbine and the solar cell that's why you need a a storage battery who can storage regulate the uh unstabled renewable energy supplies which make this energy Supply become very stable very predictable and very Fitness to the industry use and other use

what's been the main steps uh from uh going from kind of zero to uh 37.5% world market share how long has it taken you

yeah we take almost uh 12 years to from zero to the to this uh 37.5% the major is not because of this this only this 12 years because our team have been working on this industry for now it's a quarter Century 25 years ago we start business with this L ion battery which is definitely is for the mobile phone for the Notebook for the all the consumer electronic applications so we have the similar technology from from 25 years ago

who do you consider your competitors uh today

I think uh the competitor is ourself because we don't have uh we still have a lot of to do especially on the uh electrical chemical side you know the material today we still in Castle material uh like lium ion phosphate and the NCM and the material still on the quy some silicon most important is the new chemistries we have to invent

so only invent the new chemistries can also fit more usage more requirement from consumer for example low temperature performance

you say that uh your competitor is yourself are you not worried about any other competitors

I don't consider them as a competitors actually we love to have more people join in this journey which you really can have the inventions it's not a copycat it's a inventions which is can help to make the consumer make the customer happy with their real good performance of the products and Technologies because only the competitions in the invention competitions in the creativity which can help this industry very healthy to grow in the Futures

and how important is uh uh State support in getting uh to that type of position

but in China is uh more more complicated because uh Chinese try to make a lot of products which fit to the consumer usage so uh Chinese o more like a we we we call it hearing more the request from the consumer then they make it a good design faster than anyone else in the in the world that's why they can roll out a lot of good products

so in order to support the trines OEM on this aspect seat have been you know being well trained to how to quick faster grass and how to quick faster to remark the production to support that the cost performance effectively and the quality high quality products to our customer let's the whole story make a difference

you know it's complicated that's why it's good that you have a PhD but um um how many people have you got in uh in research and development

yeah we have more than 20,000 uh people engineer very good talents in my uh area because uh uh they need a focus on many aspects

but I mean 20 20,000 is nearly as many people that live in my hometown so what do they do

uh least 20,000 people is uh some people is focus on the basic material structures some people is focus on cations some people is focus on the interation of the materials some people is focus on the future chemistry for example we call AI for Science and need to use artificial intellig to try to find out the next revolutionary material and the chemical system beyond the LM ions we need to have some research guide on the you know on the battery Management systems and softwares all together

like 20 21,000 uh Engineers they have uh sever hundred phds you know many many Masters so loan kids have been working here for average more than three or five years they they have become very good T and I hope uh they can have more Innovations in the future to help the the human uh climate changing focus on these uh uh renewable energies

the talent pool you have uh is incredible right I saw that two out of three widely cited papers on Battery Technology came out of China uh only 12% coming out of the US also you in China have more than 50 graduate programs in batteries compared to only a few uh in the US so um how how can the rest of the world possibly compete with you

almost 12 years ago uh when the Angela M visit China we have some discussions among that in that time the German people already thinking about how why they cannot make a good batteries because they make a very good engines they make a very good gear boss so uh you know German people think they can make a very good batteries

that's why when we have some discussions on that I told them fortunately unfortunately is uh China have a lot of uh universi still working on the electrical chemical so usually electrical chemistry is uh is very low end people looking at because if you graduate from electrical chemistry you cannot find a good job you know you can only find uh people for the L abilities you only find a job for the antic cions so all this kind of uh low pay job that's why uh they being very old uh uh Theory

but uh I know United States a lot of good universities and the students they don't want to focus on this they want to focus on finance focus on the uh semiconductors yeah they need to get a higher pay from the leas but the China there's a lot of you know students who uh have to go into University that's why they found more M study on the electrical chemistries that's why we have a lot of talents compared to us compared to Germany

so if us Germany want to catch up or want to overtake in the bar side probably they have to startop from the uh education

have you got a view on the amount of talent we have in Norway

I think all 20,000 people in your hometown is all talents so we need to find out what kind of talents to F what kind of use may not be electrical chemistry

what's the most difficult thing is it to uh uh to invent a battery or is it the scaling of battery production you know is it more difficult to make one or to make a thousand

so most difficult things is understanding of electrical chemical system in the real world and uh other things is follow is like a as I mentioned you have to last 20 25 years let's TR how you predict that and uh accurately A cation test to indicate is already can reach that kind of level uh is another difficulty in reliabilities

so and the scale up uh Productions and you know low cost everyone looking for very low cost battery because they always compare the battery with the Gathering engine internal combustion engine which have developed more than 100 years optimize and optimized that's why they push too much burden on the batteries

it just seems like um uh in Europe there is such a problem scaling up production is there one common thing that's particularly difficult here

I talk to the many people European battery maker CEO W canot make a a good product it's because they have a wrong design and secondly they have a wrong process thirdly they have a wrong equipments

how can they scale up if they want to scale up a l they would be have a you problem you utilization problem and later on there will be a Rel reliability problem and two year or 3 years later there will be a safety problem so almost all mistake together so I don't know how that doesn't sound so good

but if we start with the first one when you said they got the wrong design what do you mean

yes stuff from the wrong design it means they if they don't understand the electrical chemistry or side reation as I mentioned the design will be wrong they never cover the risk of the future risk that's why the performance testing in one day looks good then you want to scale up then you want to put the process the process never cover what you need in the future

what are the applications for European battery production then given what you saying where do you think Europe is going to be in 10 years time for the battery application side

we we we we just tell about at Le immobility and the boat also and ioto also uh even a bullly TR and the and the kai is definitely since in Norway is definitely a very Advanced uh Nations for this renewable energy maybe we can work together to make a planning to make a Norway the whole Norway become a zero carbon you know Society

so I have a confidence how to mapping up electricity zeroc carbon is important you have almost 90% Hydro power right then you add up another 10% maybe from the winter by from the from the sea

and uh and another size is uh immobilities your passenger car penetration you know already 90 95% of the new cars then we can also can help you to make these trucks to be zero carbon by our swapping battery system and also we can make it a PT electrifications and also can help also even the westel uh with the we call the rer standard

so we can planning together to make a whole Norway as a number one in the world to be the zero carbon technology renewable energy nations in the world I think it take around 10 years in 2025 what togethera will be make it and also you would be very happy to have a lot of income from all this kind of different uh you know different things

well uh sounds very interesting unfortunately it's above my pay grade it's not my decision I only invest money you know and uh of course we happy that we have invested a lot of money with you

now you've been doing batteries for a long time do you feel that uh Innovation is accelerating or decelerating

I don't see too much is actually acceleration you know when the industry is small when we start from the uh uh uh mobile phone the technology like a growing like a a line not as relations but when to put more money more people inside now everyone looking for the Innovations

so Innovations big is access relate and uh we believe there will be another new industry a new chemistry come out that's why uh when we put our product when we invest our production line we have to put the production Li have to depreciate faster the depreciation have to be 5 years otherwise uh we want it so new things come out

so a lot of companies push kind of solid state batteries it's a game changer what are the showstoppers here

well I have been taught this for uh many many times of the different people uh the basic show stop is a steel lay steel is the interface solid and solid interface whenever Castle material with the electrolyte so solid electrolyte solid powder so in anal material or solid powder solid solid interface definitely the problem of the diffusions the speak of the diffusion is almost uh two orders less than a liquid electroly

that's why people have to put the pressure to put the two solid powder together very heavy pressures then make it works but in the real application days how can you get the the heavy pressures so that's why it is a fundamental uh Science and Technology issues but we have to overcome by different things different uh different new invention of the materials and new invention of the process so it take time

so in terms of Technology Readiness level I put it at a four level four

you also in sodium ion and condensed metal batteries how do you view these Technologies

the sodium ion is quite mature now we already have the production uh small production to the some of the car makers the only problem is the quite a little bit low lower energy density compared with ion phosphate today that's why when ion phosphate is cheaper people tend to select ion phosphate rather than sodium ion

but we have developing the second generation of sodium ion which can be a very good compared with the first generation so we believe it will be a 20 to 30% replacement of lion phosphate in a smaller car on the shorter range of the cars at the initial stage

as of the that's matter battery is uh I'm proud of that because uh if it is very good in imoto application is a very expensive today and uh we are working hard on that try to make it uh you know maybe uh two times compared today or 1.5 times so we can use this battery to the very highend car which should need energy density uh for the speed on the higher range

when you look at your process and so on what's the key to your your successful supply chain I mean you for instance own your own lithium mine right what are your uh advantages in when you look at your supply chain

usually uh people have to look at a Supply Chain by the applications for example uh several years ago people say wow Niel cobal is very important because the battery will going into big applications that's why you need to have a invest in nickel you especially in the cobal mining

but they don't understand is we can have uh making the structure change inovations to reduce the cobal applications so cobal from 33% reduced to 3% and also even now we can remove the cobal then we use the ion phosphate then the cobal become zero nickel become zero

so the only the technology people who understand the trend of the developing applications in the future who to know who to choose what kind of uh mining is a good mining Investments that probably is our advantage so we have to very carefully understand the advantage of the different material and especially where chemistry system who will be the winner then we can judge

and how do you benefit from this when you set of factories in Europe

I have two Factory in Europe one is in Germany now one is in uh uh Hungary now the supply chain we establish the uh supply chain gradually now still majority from China

That's why for example in Norway we definitely we can work together for because you have a very low cost of the hydro Powers so we can make graph graphite together so you know graphite is a one of the most important is the energy consumption changing t a bit

uh energy storage how do you see that market developing

uh energy storage uh in my mind is uh is a similar or maybe half maybe half size of Transportation but energ storage is more difficult than Transportation you know because they lasting they need lasting 20 25 years but many people think this is easier because they say this is a stationary p no don't move uh yes or no

number two is the en story usually is a huge pack for example One gwatt battery pack whole system it contains at least 1.5 million cells if think about 1.5 million cells plus all the electronics Mechanicals somal managements put into the system and plus in this software the whole 1 GW hour batteries energy storage system contains maybe 7 to maybe 9 million of the components similar as the Bing 787

so when you control your quality in the one out of the pp PPM that means every day you have the product you have the components a problem you have to maintain that you have to repair that you have a lot of maintenance cost in the future and also degradation is differ consistency is very very difficult to control

that's why for C we want to put the battery manufacturing quality up to PPP level one parts per billion so three orders increase the quality level to fit for the usage of this energy storage so it's difficult

yeah every if you everyone tell you it's good you know 10 years later they to pay maybe 5 years later they have to pay a lot of money

how much time do you spend on the corpor culture at catl what do you think defines the the culture compared to other companies

uh our culture is uh uh we have a wish we try to be a very innov Innovative uh technology company in the world especially focus on the renewable energy and try to do the excellent contribution to the Human Society in renewable energy IES

on the other hand we try to create a platform which help the individuals to fight to grow their spirit and material well-being actually is money so we need to give them the more St options and also help them to really fighting for the grow uh especially Innovations and also the confidence bys become a better man

the focus on the renewable energy so people people believe very meaningful in this journey especially working in SEO now it's one uh 15 million cars uh 15 million cars in the world powered by Seattle beries so think about that you already help to reduce a lot of carbon

on the other hand we are keep on doing these uh Innovations to help the climate change and also sustainability for the for the humans development uh we try to gain the same vision and uh also uh we are using also Chinese uh uh culture we call the refine so everyone have to Define themsel and enable others then uh Drive Innovation so we

always we always uh how to say successfully uh in introduce Chinese traditional thinking of refine enable and uh strive innovation

and Robin how are you still trying to refine the way you work for me

there's two way one is my My Philosophy I don't want to be the I don't want to be the rich guy in the richest guy or whatever it doesn't meaning so I want to uh share that this uh rich or wealthy to many peoples to try to create the good so Society especially for the sustainability this is a number one refine for my my view on my uh uh uh wealthy

second is uh I need to refine myself to be more stronger body you know otherwise it's always tired know you cannot fight the patient is very important otherwise cannot lasting for longer

the certain things I'm now trying very hard to find the successors so this is three three things is in my mind now is my more top priorities

so uh Robin I believe you and I we share one thing in common we both uh sleep a bit in the middle of the day we take a a little nap in the office

yes this is a No Time usually we sleep maybe 30 minutes in office yes

when during the day do you sleep

1:00 p.m. uh something like that start sleeping and maybe 30 minutes it's good enough to recover

and what does that do to you

you become a more you know energetic maybe the body is physically needed

how long do you work in the evening

I work until 12 12:00 around that 12 12:30 because usually the whole days working sleeping is not really you have to you know uh listen the the the the the the some the information message from overse especially you're running International companies you you you have uh information across the you know the 24 hours across Cloud but you have to pick up the right things and also uh yeah I'm I'm happy to do that uh basically no not much problem but I need to do exercise my daughter told me

more you grew up in a rural China right in uh ning

yes

what um what do you think that has done to you as a person to come from a rural Place moving being very successful how has it helped you in your business

we have uh very difficult economics and my hometown is very poor so uh for me is in the day one I think uh we are we have confidence uh because we believe we can overcome all the difficulties once we have a chance

number two is we we we have a very strong mind we are not easy to be you know bat anywhere because we have experience number three is we are not much too much looking at the the wealth is because we have experienc so poor and we are we have no problem on that

so uh we we say that if people almost told me say Robin why don't you enjoy your life life you know you can buy a yard and know say for me is there is a not much joy you know we have to overcome the difficulties to do something great to to support people poor people and also support the Le renewable energy in the in the world he would be very happy

so uh usually I uh I like to invest the the the manufacturing plant in the in the related poor area

what kind of projects to your support

for my donation is usually go to this very very poor the children we donate some money for them to like have some people to care just talk touch or you know play together so I join some uh uh uh international program for the children

I believe if we can um C can invest the manufacturing PL in some poor area so their family no need to move out to come come out to the you know uh big city to work to leave the children in the hometown so that's why we invest the the manufacturing place in guo and man in h all these areas to help them so such kind of things is for me is much happier and may me more stronger in the in the in the rural area

when you meet young Chinese people what advice do you give them

my advice is uh be patient strive because you have your chance

if you were to give advice to young people in Europe and the US what would you tell them

I think is similar usually today's young kids want to have be become rich very fast right so be patient but strive everyone have a chance I believe

Robin it's been uh a tremendous talking to you it's incredible what you have achieved and I have to say I am uh I am pretty happy I'm uh not your competitor thanks a million oh