[Host Jeyan]: Prime Minister Mark Carney says it's time to build. His government is backing major projects like ports, mines and pipelines to make Canada more economically self-sufficient. Now, many of these projects will affect indigenous communities, and this government says it plans to do things differently.

[Tanya Talaga]: This time. We are building with indigenous peoples as full partners, ensuring ensuring meaningful indigenous ownership and major economic benefits.

[Host Jeyan]: Okay, but what does that actually mean? Well, we dig into this government's track record on reconciliation and what full economic partnership would look like then. What makes indigenous humour unique? We talk comedy, culture and whether anything's off limits with journalist, author and playwright Drew Hayden Taylor, this is The Rundown. If you've been following the news, you know Canada is preparing for a new wave of nation building projects while also gearing up for trade talks with the United States and Mexico. And it promises it will do all of this working side by side with indigenous peoples. So we asked the question, what does that actually mean in practice? Tanya Talaga is an Anishinaabe journalist and speaker, and she joins us in our studios. How are you doing?

[Tanya Talaga]: I'm well, thank you.

[Host Jeyan]: Well, you're here because one of our producers saw you at an event a few months back, and it was a comment that you made that left an impression on him. And it was Canada has forgotten reconciliation. What did you mean by that?

[Tanya Talaga]: Well, we were at the North York Public Library having a debate, and we were talking about elbows up in this era of, you know, everyone coming to the table and doing all they can to help shore up Canada economically and in every way, shape possible against the United States. And one of the things we talked about was, well, what's happened to reconciliation? And we can't also forget truth and reconciliation, the word beforehand as well. It seems as though that's kind of gone out the window at the moment, as everyone concentrates on major projects, legislation and concentrates on what economic zones can we get up and running in order to combat a declining economy?

[Host Jeyan]: I'm assuming you're talking from the Ontario standpoint. We're talking Bill five when we're talking from the federal talking to Bill C-5, are there particular issues with those particular bills in terms of how they're set up?

[Tanya Talaga]: Oh, absolutely. You know, when it comes to Ontario's Bill five, and I call the federal bill the Big Brother C5. But if you look at what's happening in Ontario, one of the very first things that happened when Bill five was passed was the Endangered Species Act was completely killed. Just gutted. That was something that was really, truly horrible, and it should be horrible for everybody in this province and everybody in this country. We're talking about protections for animals, four leggeds, fish, birds, you name it, migratory birds. Everything has been shelved in order to make way for economic growth. So special economic zones are being created throughout Ontario to bypass rules to bypass any environmental protections and to sort of leave that in the hands of certain government ministers to decide, oh, okay, we'll save those turtles, you know, over here, but not the rest. And that is to me, very shortsighted. And it seems like we've just gone ten steps backwards.

[Host Jeyan]: I'm curious if that has to do with a change in leadership. How does Mark Carney compare to Justin Trudeau when it comes to relations with indigenous peoples?

[Tanya Talaga]: Right. You know, to me, Mark Carney seems as if he is more concentrated on the finances. He's more concentrated on the business. You know what? Everything else, boom, off to the side. He's got a focus and his focus is making sure the Canadian economy is on track. And so to me, it seems like he doesn't really have time for First Nations issues or reconciliation in the same way, shape or form. He's very laser focused. He seems very much a central banker and that is who First Nations now find themselves dealing with.

[Host Jeyan]: What's the message to to a minister or the Prime Minister rather, when that isn't the focus?

[Tanya Talaga]: I think that the Prime Minister should really take the time to get to know our communities a lot more, to be honest with you. He needs to travel to northern Ontario. He needs to go to Moose Cree First Nation. He needs to go to Fort Albany. He needs to see Neskatanga, the longest boil water advisory in Canada, a quarter century long. And he needs to see the Ring of Fire for himself. Meet the people, see the land, see the animals, and then think about what's happening with the economy and how quick we really do need to mine this area, and how we should really think about, is this the right thing to do?

[Host Jeyan]: Now, as you mentioned, the things that the Prime Minister has to deal with, one of them, and probably the loudest one is what's coming from south of the border. Donald Trump has talked about Canada becoming the 51st state. Now, I don't expect you to speak on behalf of indigenous people, but do those threats to Canadian sovereignty ring differently to you?

[Tanya Talaga]: You know, you could sort of see all this coming, right when the United States shifted its political focus and the government changed, you could see all across Canada really something changing. It's almost as if there was per permissions were granted. It's like, oh, you know, we could sort of lift the veil off of our our belief in reconciliation. Maybe we can go harder on denialism. We such a growth of denialism across Canada right now as well. Things seem to be changing. The mood seems to be changing. You know.

[Host Jeyan]: You're talking about you're talking about residential school denialism.

[Tanya Talaga]: Residential school denialism, right? And just the whole political mood of the country to like, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion seems to be going out the window in a lot of spots as well. And so this is a chance, I think, for Canada to be different, to remind ourselves what our values are and how we have been working in this country, towards reconciliation, towards recognizing that we need distinct languages in this country, our languages and our protections, and that we as First Nations people can bring so much more to the table and help even the economy. And even with what Mark Carney is trying to do. But we need to be partners sitting at the table, not tokenized with like one board member that's head of a, I don't know, a mining company or a mining initiative or having hiring just 1 or 2 indigenous people as part of a business venture. Those days are gone, and we need to make sure that we are at the table in order to prop up our sovereignty and Canada's.

[Host Jeyan]: You mentioned mining. So I want to talk about the First Nations Major Projects Coalition conference. You were there about a month ago. We're. The economic power of First Nations was essentially on full display there. Tell us a little bit about what it was like to be in that space.

[Tanya Talaga]: It was just wild. You know, there was about 1800 people there, and it was so nice to see so many First Nations people, powerhouses, you know, economic powerhouses there and present and trying to do business, trying to meet with, you know, the head of the RBC, trying to meet with federal ministers. And there was even a Māori queen that came to address the crowd on the very first day and open everything up. It was, you know, a moment. And it really gave me pause. And I thought to myself, wow, we don't seem to get recognized in a way that we should be, as we are a major land rights holders. We are treaty holders in this country, and Canada can't move ahead without us. That needs to be shouted from the tops of buildings. You know you need First Nations participation and just being in that room and seeing all of our communities there and willing to go forward, that was really wonderful to see.

[Host Jeyan]: What does Canada lose if it doesn't treat First Nations as equal partners?

[Tanya Talaga]: You lose environmental stewards, you lose land guardians, people that are actually knowledgeable about what the land is trying to tell you, what the waters in the rivers are trying to tell you what the animals are going through and what they're trying to tell you. Our people have been living in this land, in this territory, for tens of thousands of years. This is where we're from. We can be helpful. We can be helpful when it comes to knowing where the waters should be going and what should be protected. When you look at Winnebago and Winnebago, for example, Hudson Bay and James Bay, there's such beautiful marine areas and there's talk about putting a deep water port up there. A lot of our communities will tell you, okay, well, good luck with that because it's so incredibly shallow in Hudson Bay and James Bay for a really long period of time. But yet, you know, you also hear Doug Ford talking about making these ports. I'm like, well, does he really know what the, the, the land is like there? And can that really happen? We need to be partners with government, like true partners, not fake partners. And that is what we get a lot, right? We get a lot of lip service. We get a lot of, of course, you can come and help and do these things with us. But then you see things happen. Like we get one week to comment on major projects, legislation federally. That's not enough time or a consultation after the bill is passed. C5, which is what happened in July of last year, that is clearly doesn't show that the federal government thinks of us as equal partners.

[Host Jeyan]: Looking across this country, is there a provincial government that is doing this right that you think others can take a piece of the playbook from?

[Tanya Talaga]: You know, I have spent a lot of time recently in Manitoba, and I have to say, I am just so really heartened by Premier Kenora and seeing what his government is doing, seeing what they're doing to help the homeless people, seeing what they are doing to build up the Churchill development and do it in a good way with First Nations participation. There is a lot there that is being done and even Wab Kinew. I mean, recently he stuck up for Canada and told Premier Daniel Smith at a press conference, you know, you should really think about treaty rights when you're talking about separation. And that was really nice to see too. So you're seeing him definitely on the federal stage trying to tell Alberta, you know what? This really isn't yours to decide if you're going to leave.

[Host Jeyan]: Is that because he is an indigenous leader?

[Tanya Talaga]: 100%. He's Anishinaabe, right? And you see him as an Anishinaabe leader. He's a strong Anishinaabe man. And he's he knows the land. He knows treaty rights, and he knows the laws of this country. Danielle Smith doesn't.

[Host Jeyan]: That brings up a question. And this has been tried before, but would First Nations benefit from having a political party in the House of Commons?

[Tanya Talaga]: You know, it's something that I think about sometimes. I'm like, you just get so frustrated when you look at the parties and even just the whole structures of the parties. The party politics is really not who we are. And I think that absolutely.

[Host Jeyan]: What you mean by that.

[Tanya Talaga]: Well, you know, there's this whole structure of you have to toe the line, you have to do this. I mean, look what happened to Jody Wilson-Raybould when she tried to enter into federal politics. It was a disaster. And that was part and parcel as the reason why was because of what she experienced within the party itself. She was not free to do as she saw fit and progressive ideas that she had when it came to First Nations people. So I think that if we had the chance to do our own political party, it'd be pretty great. I mean, when you look at it, there are 633 First Nations from coast to coast to coast. That's already a really huge voting bloc, and it's just sort of out there right now, sitting there waiting for a party to happen.

[Host Jeyan]: An opportunity there. Mark Carney Doug Ford have have made getting these infrastructure projects, like we mentioned, a priority for, for those levels of government, given that there are 600 plus First Nations, Canada, is there a consensus that some of these projects do need to happen?

[Tanya Talaga]: Yeah, I don't think there's consensus. You know, every single First Nation has their own idea and.

[Host Jeyan]: Has to look at the Ring of Fire, for example.

[Tanya Talaga]: Exactly. There's no consensus in the Ring of Fire, right? I mean, there are some communities that are absolutely wanting a road built. They want development to happen. And then others are saying, well, hold on a second there. You know, you haven't consulted us. Everything is so interconnected. All the ecosystems, the watersheds, the land in the Ring of fire, it's all connected. And you can't really just go in and talk to one First Nation and expect all of the others to fall behind and say, okay, we're all going to be in agreement. Everybody is so different. They all have different community needs. Some don't have clean, potable drinking water, right? Doctors, hospital care, high schools, everything. Every community is so different and the needs are so deep. Every community has their own interests at heart. And so when you look at it across the country too, it's the same thing. You know, some countries, sorry, some nations in BC are for pipelines, for example, and are absolutely right behind it. And they're actually buying into pipelines and others disagree. Others are worried about what the effects are going to be on the the mammals, the animals, the killer whales, for instance. Others, not so much.

[Host Jeyan]: Tanya, I want to thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate your insights on this one.

[Tanya Talaga]: Miigwech. Thanks for having me.

[Host Jeyan]: Jokes are about more than punch lines. They're often based in shared culture and community. So what sets indigenous comedy apart and can humour build connection? Drew Hayden Taylor is a playwright, author, and journalist, and he joins us in our studios. How are you doing, sir?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: I haven't decided yet.

[Host Jeyan]: Well, tell me after the interview.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: I'll get back to that.

[Host Jeyan]: All right. Well, we invited you because you had an op ed in the Globe and Mail recently that caught her interest. A theatre critic took issue with your play, the undeniable accusations of red cadmium light. Let's take a step back. What's the play about?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: Well, that actually is more complicated than than you would think. The overall premise is an exploration of the forgeries of Norval Morrisseau. The title Red Cadmium Light is how a lot of people can tell if some of the play, some of the plays, some of the paintings are fake because he developed a fondness for red cadmium light to use in skin tones, but it wasn't created until 1982. So when forgers attribute a painting to 1976 and it has red cadmium light in it, they know it's a fake. So that's the premise. But from that's just a springboard to the second storyline, which is about this woman who's an expert on the works of Norval Morrisseau and is often brought in to consult on what's real and what's not. It turns out she's not native. She's been advertising herself as a native expert. She has an art gallery on a reserve, etc. but it turns out she's not native. So that becomes plot number two. But for me, it's actually about a relationship between a mother and a daughter, because the daughter finds this out. The stepdaughter, the woman had married her father, who was a native artist daughter, finds out that her mother has been lying to her for, for 30 years. And to me, that's the play.

[Host Jeyan]: Now, obviously some some serious tones there, but there was a lot of humour as well, which, well, everything.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: I do has a lot of humour.

[Host Jeyan]: And so I want to pick up on the review itself. What irked you about the review?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: I don't have the exact terminology, but the reviewer basically commented that there was a lot of laughter in the room for a lot of humour that she didn't quite understand, and then she just sort of threw in a line, basically saying something like, oh, maybe it has something to do with that First Nations sense of humour, and then left it at that. And that sort of had me puzzled, because I've spent 35 years celebrating, exploring and deconstructing indigenous humour and regular humour. And I have to say that I actually find whether there more similarities than differences.

[Host Jeyan]: Well, your headline of your op ed was don't get indigenous humour. The joke's on you. And we should preface that writers typically don't get to write the headlines, but what helps, what what interests you about the way that mainstream audiences sort of respond to indigenous humour?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: Well, as I said, 90% of the time they get it. I have had about 120 productions of my work across Canada, and I think there's only like two indigenous theatre companies in Canada. So 99% of my plays are produced by mainstream theatre companies that are very successful. People do get the humour. One of my plays, Cottagers and Indians, has been produced about a dozen times in the last ten years, and there's a lot of humour in it and it poking at white people for a large part. But I go to I go to a play and the audience is 90, 95% non-native and they're enjoying the humour they are. As I said, there's more similarities than differences.

[Host Jeyan]: Do you prefer if we talk about sort of the landscape in the theatre business? But if the critic themselves is indigenous.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: That's that's one of the the issues for discussion. There's a wonderful woman named Yolanda Bonnell who basically wrote wrote an article asking older white theatre critics not to come to her or not to review her plays because she says, it's not for you. And I'm not quite that severe about it because my my mortgage knows no skin colour. And I think anybody can get indigenous humour. I'm not reinventing the wheel here. I think it's just people who don't get a joke, just want to blame something or someone. So they blamed the indigenous playwright and indigenous sense of humour.

[Host Jeyan]: Now you also write about comedy that didn't appeal to you, like the The Three Stooges or a play like Moliere. Two very different types of comedy is comedy from dominant cultures. Not funny to you?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: Oh no, I like, but I have a broad spectrum of humour. I remember I like everything from talking about contemporary sitcoms, everything from Married with Children to Frasier. You know, I love a good cheap joke. I also like a sophisticated joke, and I try and find my way in between and do the same. Some some of my humour is primarily for the indigenous audience, and some of my humour is for a mainstream audience that some indigenous people wouldn't get. So I play to all crowds.

[Host Jeyan]: With that. You know, this country over the decades has to has to reckon with sort of its past. And I'm curious, how is colonialism affected the humour and the stories that you're able to tell?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: I once did a conference on multicultural humour in Kerala, India. And I was I was there and it was just a series of people doing presentations on various kinds of humour. And I followed a woman from the University of Tel Aviv who did a presentation on humour and the Holocaust. So basically what I've sort of found, not found, but I've observed that a lot of indigenous humour, like a lot of Jewish humour, is survival humour. Colonization has had effect on a lot of on most indigenous people in some way. And that is reflected in our humour because frequently our humour is is a comment on or a reaction to the world around us. So frequently a lot of our humour is generated by the side effects of colonialism.

[Host Jeyan]: Have you ever felt like you needed to water down some of your scripts, some of your plays, to make it more palatable?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: Not afterwards. No. Like, I'm not a, I don't, I like to poke the bear, but I don't like to stab the bear. Okay. Right. So I'm.

[Host Jeyan]: What's the difference?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: The the difference is, do I want to make people laugh and go, oh, you got me. As opposed to I find that insulting. I'm not trying to insult people because once you insult people, the door closes. But I don't think there's anything wrong with showing flaws or things like that in, in the play that maybe people can acknowledge and laugh at. You know, one of, one of the things I often talk about is my definition of settlers, of white people. People of pallor, colour challenged, pigment denied. I've read that right. And those aren't really vicious, but they do comment on political correctness.

[Host Jeyan]: Do do white people take offence to that? Have you gotten people who've come.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: Yes. On occasion. Well, I did this one line. Somebody asked me to tell a joke and about about colonization. Right. And one of them was, why do native people hate snow? Because it's white and all over our land. And somebody came, somebody either emailed me or made a comment on something and basically said that single joke. I have set back reconciliation ten years. Wow. Right. So yeah, some people don't don't get it.

[Host Jeyan]: On the flip side, have have, you know, indigenous people come at you and said, hey, I think you went too far on that. Is there anything that's technically off limits? Not for you as well?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: Yeah, I mean, I don't want any enemies. One of my plays actually, one of my plays alternatives, which is a dinner party between three native people and three white people. And it gets very political. It got a bomb threat once somebody left a message saying, if this theatre doesn't stop producing plays that are racist against white people, don't be surprised at what we do. Wow. So there are, you know, there are people out there who, who have issues.

[Host Jeyan]: And has there been a story or stories that you're like, you know what? That's not for me. I'm not going to do that story.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: Oh yeah. There's so many different. Everybody says everything is fair game. But I don't know, like, you know, child abuse is not funny. And I don't really know how you would make that funny. Spousal abuse. You know, there are things that just are generically not funny. Some people may argue that you can make anything funny. Maybe if that's the path you want to follow, it's it's it's not the direction I want to go.

[Host Jeyan]: Residential schools.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: It depends, you know, there are at the time of contact when John Cabot landed on the East Coast, it's estimated there were 50 to 60 separate languages and dialects spoken in Canada. And there are something like 634 First Nation communities in Canada. And I'd have to say almost every community has its own unique brand of humour. So you're asking me this when I have no right to answer for all indigenous people, there's still a few out there that don't want me to answer for them.

[Host Jeyan]: Makes sense. I want to talk about some successes here. When we talk about indigenous comedies, Reservation Dogs and North of North, which I loved.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: There's also another one. There was one called Rutherford Falls.

[Host Jeyan]: Okay.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: That was a sitcom on NBC, I think for two years, and it was absolutely delightful.

[Host Jeyan]: I will add it to the list, but help me understand why have those shows broken through. What is it about this moment that's happening?

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: I think the dominant culture is willing to sit up and look at different ways of looking at Canada, or looking at America or whatever. Years ago, when I did my very first comedy, it was called The Bootlegger Blues, and it's a play about a 58 year old, good Christian Ojibwe woman who, through a series of circumstances, finds herself in possession of 143 cases of beer that she has to bootleg in order to buy an organ for the church. And it's loosely based on a true story. Okay, my mother was so mad when I wrote that play, but making a very long story short, first time it was produced in a in a mainstream theatre company. I was sitting there 300 seats full of, of, of, of non-native people. How can I put this delicately with a bluish tinge to their hair? Okay, comedy starts up. Nobody's laughing. Absolute silence. And I'm suddenly thinking, oh, you know, there goes my career as a playwright and I'm trying to figure out what's going on. But there were eight native people in the audience because they were related to the actors, and they were in a balcony. They're up there. They started laughing almost immediately, but they were the only ones. The native people started laughing and the most interesting thing happened. After about five minutes, the people around the native people started laughing. Another five minutes, another circle of people started laughing. It was like throwing a rock in a pond and the circle's getting.

[Host Jeyan]: Gave them permission to.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: They were. They were waiting for permission to laugh. And as I said, nowadays I have. This year alone, I'll have five productions of my of my plays, most of them comedically oriented, produced in mainstream theatre companies. I had one in Vancouver, one in Thunder Bay, one in. Winnipeg. I've got one opening tonight in Port Dover, one in about three weeks in Port Colborne, and so on and so on. And the audience will be mostly non-native and fingers crossed, they will find it. They'll they find it hilarious. They funny.

[Host Jeyan]: True. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to join us in the studio for this conversation.

[Drew Hayden Taylor]: As we say in my reserve. Grazie.

[Host Jeyan]: I'm Jeyan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. What do you like or not like about what we're doing so far? Let us know. Send your suggestions and feedback along to rundown@tvo.org, or you can always leave us a comment on our YouTube page. Until then, I will see you next week.