最高法院对投票权法案的裁决
Michael Baro: 来自《纽约时报》,我是 Michael Baro。这是“每日新闻”。周三,最高法院对一项里程碑式的《投票权法案》判决,可能给予了它致命一击。这项裁决将加剧本已党派色彩浓厚的控制国家选举地图的斗争。今天,Adam Liptac 将分析该裁决的法律逻辑,Nick Corusani 将阐述该决定将如何重塑美国民主。现在是周四,4月30日。
Original English
Michael Baro: From the New York Times, I'm Michael Baro. This is the daily. On Wednesday, the Supreme Court dealt what may be a final blow to the landmark Voting Rights Act in a ruling that will supercharge the already partisan battle to control the country's election maps. Today, Adam Liptac on the legal logic of the ruling and Nick Corusani on how the decision will reshape American democracy. It's Thursday, April 30th.
历史性裁决对《投票权法案》的损害
Adam Liptac: 是的。最高法院进一步且在某种程度上是最终地损害了1965年的《投票权法案》,这可能是民权运动最伟大的立法成就,旨在保护少数族裔的投票权。其目的是阻止南方官员使用从暴力、人头税到识字考试和祖父条款等各种方法,阻止个别黑人选民进入投票站。但它也旨在确保少数族裔选民作为一个群体,能够拥有选举他们所选候选人的集体力量或至少是机会。
Original English
Adam Liptac: Yeah. The Supreme Court did further and in a sense final damage to the Voting Rights Act of 1965, probably the greatest legislative achievement of the civil rights movement, which was meant to protect minority voting power. So, it's meant to stop southern officials from using all kinds of methods from violence to pole taxes to literacy tests to grandfather clauses to keep individual black voters from the voting booth. But it also meant to ensure that minority voters as a group had the collective power or at least the opportunity to elect candidates of their choice.
Michael Baro: 当时,约翰逊总统称其为“自由的胜利”。
Original English
Michael Baro: Right. At the time, President Johnson called it a triumph for freedom.
Adam Liptac: 的确如此。而且它奏效了。南方各州少数族裔选民的选民登记和投票率从个位数飙升至有时甚至高于白人选民的水平。但这也导致了来自右翼和共和党人的攻击,因为,你知道,坦率地说,保护少数族裔选民往往意味着保护民主党选民,因为两者之间有高度的相关性。
Original English
Adam Liptac: That's right. And it worked. Voter registration and voter turnout numbers in southern states went from single digits for minority voters to sometimes achieving levels higher than those of white voters. But this gave rise to an attack from the right and from Republicans because, you know, frankly, protecting minority voters often meant protecting Democratic voters because there's a high degree of correlation between the two.
Michael Baro: 那么,请告诉我们,来自右翼的压力如何导致了昨天的裁决?
Original English
Michael Baro: So tell us how that pressure from the right brings us to yesterday's ruling.
Adam Liptac: 因此,为了回应保守派的挑战,最高法院在周三发布了“三部曲”中的第三项裁决,这三项裁决共同掏空了《投票权法案》,使其形同虚设。2013年的第一个裁决“掏空了《投票权法案》的核心”,该法案曾要求有歧视历史的司法管辖区在改变投票实践前必须获得联邦批准。2021年的第二个裁决使得“投票剥夺”诉讼几乎不可能提起,即声称选举管理员通过实施选民身份识别等措施增加了投票难度。而周三的第三项也是最后一项裁决,则针对了《投票权法案》的剩余部分,即保护少数族裔投票权不被稀释,以免少数族裔选民无法获得选举他们所选候选人的机会。
Original English
Adam Liptac: So, in response to challenges from conservatives, the Supreme Court on Wednesday issued the third in a trilogy of decisions that have collectively hollowed out and rendered the Voting Rights Act toothless. The first one in 2013 cut the heart out of the Voting Rights Act, which had required jurisdictions with a history of discrimination to get federal approval before they changed voting practices. The second one in 2021 made it all but impossible to sue under the Voting Rights Act for so-called vote denial claims, claims that election administrators had made it harder to vote by, say, instituting voter ID. And then this third and last decision on Wednesday took aim at the remaining piece of the Voting Rights Act, which tried to protect minority voting power when it would be diluted so that minority voters could not have the opportunity to elect candidates of their choice.
Michael Baro: 请再次提醒我们周三审理的这个案例的具体细节,以及其中具体争议的问题是什么?
Original English
Michael Baro: Just remind us of the specifics of the case that was decided on Wednesday, this third in this trilogy, and what specifically was an issue in it.
Adam Liptac: 所以,此案的问题在于路易斯安那州是否可以有两个多数少数族裔投票区。路易斯安那州有六个国会选区,不久前该州重新绘制了地图,使得黑人选民在两个选区中占多数,而不是只有一个。路易斯安那州大约有三分之一是黑人。所以,如果你计算一下,两个听起来是合理的。但法院认为,以那样的方式考虑种族是不合法的。
Original English
Adam Liptac: So, the question in the case was whether Louisiana could have two majority minority voting districts. Louisiana has six congressional districts and not long ago the state redrew its maps so that black voters were the majority in two districts rather than just one. Louisiana is about a third black. So if you just do the math, two sounds about right.
Michael Baro: 嗯。
Original English
Michael Baro: Mhm.
Adam Liptac: 但法院认为,以那样的方式考虑种族是不合法的。
Original English
Adam Liptac: But the court said that taking account of race in that way was unlawful.
Michael Baro: 设立第二个黑人选民占多数的国会选区,法院认为这是非法的。
Original English
Michael Baro: Creating a second congressional district in which black voters were the majority. the court found was unlawful.
Adam Liptac: 的确如此。所以,过去,《投票权法案》会保护这些选区,因为几十年来对《投票权法案》的理解是,它不仅旨在确保个体选民有投票权,而且还旨在确保这个选民群体,即少数族裔选民作为一个集体,有能力选举他们选择的候选人。但周三,以6比3的投票结果,法院的共和党任命大法官占多数,民主党任命大法官持反对意见,法院确立了一个新的测试标准,使得考虑种族因素来划分投票区变得非常困难。
Original English
Adam Liptac: That's right. So, in the past, the Voting Rights Act would have protected these districts because the understanding of the Voting Rights Act for decades and decades was that it was meant not only to make sure that an individual voter would have the right to vote, but that this community of voters, that minority voters as a collective would have the opportunity to elect their candidates of choice. But on Wednesday, by a 6-3 vote, the court's Republican appointees in the majority, the Democratic appointees in descent, the court installed a new test, one that made it very hard to take race into account in drawing voting districts.
Michael Baro: 那是什么新标准呢?
Original English
Michael Baro: And what was that new test?
Adam Liptac: 所以,法院说,《投票权法案》只有在立法者有意歧视少数族裔选民时才会启动。无论地图的结果如何,只有故意的种族歧视——这很难证明,而且取决于立法者头脑中的想法——才会被考虑。所以,法院在周三所做的是,它提出了一项新的法律标准,规定何时不能取消一个例如黑人占多数的国会选区,而过去《投票权法案》曾被视为保护这些选区。这个新标准是,取消该选区的人必须公开声明,“我们要取消这个选区是为了伤害黑人选民。”他们必须明确表达歧视的意图。除非他们这样做,否则,一个拥有黑人多数选民的选区就可以被抹去。
Original English
Adam Liptac: So, the court says the Voting Rights Act only kicks in if lawmakers had intended to discriminate against minority voters. Whatever the effect of, whatever the results of the map are, only intentional racial discrimination, which is very hard to prove, what was in the lawmaker's heads counts. So what the court does on Wednesday is it lays out a new legal criteria for when it is not okay to eliminate a for example black majority congressional district which the VRA in the past was seen as protecting. And that new criteria is that the people eliminating the district would have to stand up on a stage somewhere pretty much and say, "We're getting rid of this district in order to hurt black voters." They'd have to be explicit in their desire to discriminate. And unless they do that, then such a district with a black majority can be wiped off the map.
Michael Baro: 的确如此。所以,一位立法者可以声称,并且也许可以诚实地说,“嘿,我无意歧视黑人。我无意歧视民主党人,而我被允许这样做。”
Original English
Michael Baro: That's right. So, a lawmaker could say and maybe truthfully say that, "Hey, I don't mean to discriminate against black people. I mean to discriminate against Democrats and I'm allowed to do that.
Adam Liptac: 在另一案件中,最高法院表示,党派选区划分不受联邦法院的审查。
Original English
Adam Liptac: Partisan gerrymandering, the Supreme Court said in another case, is not subject to review in the federal courts.
Michael Baro: 实际上,这意味着什么呢?这意味着旨在确保少数族裔选民有能力选举他们想要的人的选区,现在正面临危险。Adam,保守派大法官做出这项裁决的理由是什么?因为这似乎与罗伯茨法院过去几年做出的一系列最高法院裁决有关,包括我们讨论过的平权法案裁决,这些裁决在涉及种族问题时挑战了政府的干预。
Original English
Michael Baro: And what this means as a practical matter is that districts drawn to ensure that minority voters have the power to elect the candidates they want are now in peril across the country. Adam, what is the rationale from the conservative justices who issued this ruling for doing so? Because it feels related to a larger body of Supreme Court rulings that we've talked to you about over the last several years from the Roberts court, including of course the affirmative action ruling that have challenged government intervention when it comes to race.
Adam Liptac: 一般来说,这个法院,这个法院的保守派多数派,普遍敌视那些考虑种族的政府决定。它说宪法是“色盲”的,你不应该按种族对人进行分类。然后更具体地说,在《投票权法案》的背景下,多数派认为情况已经改变了。《投票权法案》在那时起到了作用,但现在不再需要了。正如约翰·阿利托大法官在其多数意见中所说:“在法案通过时,国家面临了近一个世纪的根深蒂固的种族歧视和投票障碍,以及一种阴险而普遍的邪恶,这种邪恶在我国某些地区通过对宪法的毫不懈怠和巧妙的蔑视而得以延续。但《投票权法案》在随后的几十年里取得了巨大的进步。投票测试被废除。由于种族造成的投票登记和投票率的差距被消除。非洲裔美国人以创纪录的数量获得政治职位。”
Original English
Adam Liptac: So as a general matter quite right Michael uh this court the conservative majority on this court is uniformly hostile to government decisionmaking that takes account of race. It says the constitution is colorblind and you shouldn't be sorting people based on their race. And then more specifically in the context of the voting rights act the majority says that things have changed. The Voting Rights Act had a role to play back then, but no longer. And Justice Alto says as much in his majority opinion. He says, "At the time of the act's passage, the nation had faced nearly a century of entrenched racial discrimination and voting and insidious and pervasive evil which had been perpetuated in certain parts of our country through unremitting and ingenious defiance of the Constitution. But the Voting Rights Act led to great strides in the ensuing decades. Voting tests were abolished. Disparities in voting registration and turnout due to race were erased. And African-Americans attained political office in record numbers.
Michael Baro: 并且,这种历史解读向他表明,这项法律已经完成了它的使命,但既然使命已经完成,我们就不再需要它了。众所周知,鲁斯·巴德·金斯伯格大法官在2013年回应同样的论点时说:“可能如此,但你不会因为没淋湿就扔掉雨伞。”她的建议是,正是因为《投票权法案》仍然存在,这些成果才能得以维持。
Original English
Michael Baro: And that account of history suggests to him that this law has done its job, but the job having been done, we no longer need it. Famously, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg in 2013 responding to this same kind of argument said that may be so, but you don't throw away your umbrella just because you're not getting wet. And her suggestion was that it was because the Voting Rights Act was still in place that these gains could be sustained.
Adam Liptac: 嗯。也许没有它,它们可能会开始侵蚀。
Original English
Adam Liptac: Mhm. And that perhaps without it they might begin to erode.
Michael Baro: 准确。
Original English
Michael Baro: Correct,
Michael Baro: Adam?在粗略浏览了多数意见的一些内容后,我只是粗略看过,你实际上读了。阿利托似乎花了些精力来暗示,这项裁决是狭隘的,它并没有推翻《投票权法案》,而我们的同事们一直说这在这个案例中是可能发生的。你怎么看待保守派多数派坚持认为这最终是一个很小的裁决?
Original English
Michael Baro: Adam? In skimming some of the majority's opinion, I skim, you actually read. Alito seemed to take some pains to suggest that this ruling is narrow and that it is not striking down the Voting Rights Act, which colleagues of ours have always said was a possibility in this case. What do you make of that insistence by the conservative majority that this was in the end a smallish ruling?
Adam Liptac: 嗯,约翰·阿利托大法官说,他们并没有放弃在该领域的先例,我们只需要更新框架。
Original English
Adam Liptac: Well, Justice Alito says that they're not abandoning their precedents in this area, that we need only update the framework.
Michael Baro: 嗯。
Original English
Michael Baro: Mhm.
Adam Liptac: 所以它反映了重要的历史发展。
Original English
Adam Liptac: So that it reflects important historical developments.
Adam Liptac: 法官埃琳娜·卡根在代表她自己和另外两位民主党任命的大法官索托马约尔和杰克逊的反对意见中,持完全不同的观点。她写道,《投票权法案》“诞生于联邦士兵和民权活动家的鲜血”。它带来了“令人惊叹的变革,使这个国家更接近实现民主和种族平等的理想。并且它已经被国会人民的代表们一再、压倒性地重新授权。只有他们有权说它不再需要了,而不是本法院的成员。我因此反对多数派推翻《投票权法案》的最新篇章。”
Original English
Adam Liptac: Justice Elena Kagan in descent on behalf of herself and the two other democratic appointees justices Sotomayor and Jackson has a completely different view. She wrote that the Voting Rights Act was quote born of the literal blood of Union soldiers and civil rights marchers. It ushered in awe inspiring change bringing this nation closer to fulfilling the ideals of democracy and racial equality. and it has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly reauthorized by the people's representatives in Congress. Only they have the right to say it is no longer needed, not the members of this court. I dissent then from this latest chapter in the majority's now completed demolition of the Voting Rights Act.
Michael Baro: 所以你有这两种相互竞争的观点。也许它们都有些夸张,但在这两者之间,我认为卡根大法官更有说服力。
Original English
Michael Baro: So you have these two competing viewpoints. Maybe each of them is overstating things to a point, but as between the two of them, I would think that Justice Kagan has the better of the argument
Michael Baro: 因为...
Original English
Michael Baro: because
Adam Liptac: ...因为这个领域有历史。这三项裁决。第一个和第二个都非常有影响力,特别是第二个基本上关闭了一种尝试挑战少数族裔选民投票限制的方式。所以,我们有理由相信,法院对《投票权法案》的最新一次拆解,将在短期内,在我们即将面临的选举中,以及当然在未来几年中,产生相当大的影响。Adam,非常感谢你。
Original English
Adam Liptac: and the history in this area is these three decisions. Now, the first two were quite consequential and the second one in particular basically shut down a way to try to challenge restrictions on voting by minority voters. So, it stands to reason that this latest installment in the court's deconstruction of the Voting Rights Act will have a considerable impact in the short term in the election we're about to face and certainly in years to come. Adam, thank you very much.
Michael Baro: 感谢你,Michael。休息后,我的同事 Nick Corsanidi 将讨论这项裁决对美国政治的影响。我们马上回来。
Original English
Michael Baro: Thank you, Michael. After the break, my colleague Nick Corsanidi on what the impact of this ruling will look like on American politics. We'll be right back.
裁决的实际影响与选区划分的军备竞赛
Nick Corusani: Nick,欢迎回到“每日新闻”。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Nick, welcome back to the Daily.
Nick Corusani: 感谢邀请。根据 Adam Liptac 的解释,最高法院的裁决已严重削弱了《投票权法案》对全国少数族裔选举区提供的保护。你多年来一直报道投票权和选区划分问题,并且你预料到了这一裁决,因为我们正处于一场激烈的全国选区划分斗争之中。那么,依你之见,当这一裁决的“硬实力”真正遇到现实时,它将带来哪些实际影响,尤其是在今年的选举年中?
Original English
Nick Corusani: Ah, thanks for having me. We now quite clearly understand from Adam Liptac that because of the Supreme Court ruling, the Voting Rights Act's protection of minority election districts across the country has been deeply weakened. And you've spent years reporting on the question of voting rights and gerrymandering. And you've been anticipating this ruling because we are in the middle of a fierce nationwide redistricting battle already. So when the rubber of this ruling meets the road in your estimation, what are going to be the practical implications of it starting right now in this election year?
Nick Corusani: 我认为一件事情很清楚,那就是这将开启一场新的“选区划分军备竞赛”的篇章。你知道,曾经约束立法者的“护栏”现在更少了。所以,当我们转向它在中期选举中可能是什么样子时,画面有些模糊,但我们可以按几个州来细分。第一个是路易斯安那州。他们受这项裁决的直接影响最大,而且他们的选区地图被推翻了。
Original English
Nick Corusani: I think one thing that's clear is that this is starting a new chapter in what has become a national redistricting arms race. You know, the guard rails that were once there that kept legislators in check are now even fewer. And so when we pivot to what that might look like to the midterms, the the picture's a little muddy, but we can break it down by a few states. The first would be Louisiana. They're most directly impacted by this decision, and their map was struck down,
Michael Baro: 对吧?
Original English
Michael Baro: right?
Nick Corusani: 但这并不意味着立即就会出现一两个新的共和党选区。这取决于该州的立法机构和州长来开始这个过程。而他们只有很短的时间窗口。
Original English
Nick Corusani: But that doesn't mean immediately that there will be one or two new Republican districts. It's up to the legislature and the governor there to begin that process. And they have a very short window.
Michael Baro: 并且请解释一下。他们为什么时间窗口很短?
Original English
Michael Baro: And just explain that. Why do they have a short window?
Nick Corusani: 所以,路易斯安那州的早期投票定于本周末举行,这是一个关键时刻,因为这意味着选民们正在为现有的选区中的候选人投票。因此,如果推翻这些选票、重新划分选区、在选民已经开始参与即将到来的初选的情况下重新开始这个过程,这将是一个很高的门槛,因为你实际上是在 TOSS OUT 合法投出的选票。
Original English
Nick Corusani: So early voting in Louisiana is scheduled to happen this weekend and that's a critical moment because what that means is voters are casting ballots now for candidates in the existing districts. So, it would be a high bar to clear to toss out those votes, redraw the districts, restart the process when voters have already started to participate in the upcoming primary election because you'd effectively be tossing out legally cast votes.
Michael Baro: 明白了。所以在路易斯安那州,共和党控制的立法机构,他们自然要绘制政治地图,将这项裁决视为一个理由,要求在今年的国会中期选举之前迅速行动,使该州对国会竞选更加共和党友好。
Original English
Michael Baro: Got it. So in Louisiana, the Republican controlled legislature, which of course draws the political maps, is seeing this ruling as a rationale to move very quickly before this year's congressional midterms to make the state more Republicanfriendly for congressional races.
Nick Corusani: 确切地说。这可能是一个或两个选区来,来,抹去所有在那里的民主党人,但我们不知道,直到他们采取那个正式步骤。明白了。所以这是路易斯安那州。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Exactly. It it could be one to two districts to to wipe out all Democrats there, but we just don't know until they take that formal step. Got it. So that's Louisiana.
Michael Baro: 是的。
Original English
Michael Baro: Yes.
Nick Corusani: 还有少数其他州也处于类似情况,至少在初选日程上,它们主要位于南方。它们曾有这些选区,至少在一定程度上受到最高法院今天作出裁决的《投票权法案》条款的保护。
Original English
Nick Corusani: And there is a handful of other states that are in a similar position, at least within the primary calendar, and they're mostly found in the South. And they had these districts that were at least somewhat protected by the provision in the Voting Rights Act that the Supreme Court ruled on today.
Michael Baro: 嗯。那些根据日程安排的州包括南卡罗来纳州、密苏里州和田纳西州。现在,尚不清楚这些州是否会立即采取政治意愿或愿望,但让我们先看看田纳西州。
Original English
Michael Baro: Mhm. And those looking just at the calendar include South Carolina, Missouri, and Tennessee. Now, it's unclear whether there is the political will or desire to do it immediately in those states, but let's look at Tennessee to start.
Nick Corusani: 田纳西州的共和党人今天非常强硬,包括参议员 Marcia Blackburn,她也在竞选州长,呼吁该州拆除其剩余的民主党选区,以备中期选举。对了。我在社交媒体上看到了她。她基本上在说,“让我们完成把田纳西州100%变成红色的共和党的工作。这里将只有有利于共和党赢得众议院席位的结构。”
Original English
Nick Corusani: Their Republicans have been loud today, including Senator Marcia Blackburn, who's also running for governor in calling for the state to dismantle its remaining Democratic district ahead of the midterm elections. Right. I saw her on social media. She's basically saying, "Let's finish the job of turning Tennessee 100% red Republican. There will only be a structure in place for Republicans to win House seats here.
Michael Baro: 确切地说。现在,他们将处于一个相当紧张的冲刺阶段,但通过州立法机构的一些戏剧性行动和现任州长的支持,他们将能够在中期选举前重新绘制地图。
Original English
Michael Baro: Exactly. Now, they would be in a pretty tight sprint, but with some dramatic action in the state legislature and support of the current governor, they would be able to redraw their maps ahead of the midterms.
Michael Baro: 并且描述一下,如果 Blackburn 参议员如愿以偿,田纳西州将哪个席位会被取消?所以,这个位于该州西南部地区的选区是田纳西州唯一一个民主党选区。它包括孟菲斯,并且是一个多数少数族裔选区,约有60%的黑人适龄投票人口,并且有一个像孟菲斯这样重要的黑人人口城市。所以,如果共和党人对这个城市进行无情的杰利蝥,他们就会把这些黑人选民分散到其他几个共和党选区。
Original English
Michael Baro: And describe the seat that would be wiped out if Senator Blackburn got her way in Tennessee. So this district in the southwestern part of the state is the lone democratic district in Tennessee. It encompasses Memphis and is a majority minority district with roughly 60% of a black voting age population and a major black population city like Memphis in there. So if Republicans were to take a ruthless gerrymander to that city, they'd be splitting apart these black voters into a number of other Republican districts.
Nick Corusani: 明白了。这是一个相当大的工程。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Got it. A pretty big undertaking.
Nick Corusani: 是的。而且还有地图绘制的挑战,用一个多音节的词来说,当一个选区位于州的一个角落时,它比位于中间的选区更难被分割,因为你可以像切一块披萨一样把它分开。所以,田纳西州既有日程上的挑战,也有地理上的挑战,还有时间上的挑战。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Yeah. And there's also the cartographical challenge to use a multi-syllable word there where when a district is in the corner of a state, it's a lot harder to carve up than if it were in the middle and you could split it apart like a piece of pie. So there are both calendar challenges, geographical challenges, and time challenges in Tennessee,
Michael Baro: 对吧?
Original English
Michael Baro: right?
Nick Corusani: 是的。但共和党人也有一个非常直接的应用——这项裁决将在中期选举中用于新的选区地图,那就是佛罗里达州。
Original English
Nick Corusani: But Republicans also have a very immediate use of this ruling when it comes to new maps in the midterms, and that's in Florida.
Michael Baro: 今年早些时候,州长 Ron DeSantis 提交了一份新地图,这是一份非常激进的杰利蝥图。
Original English
Michael Baro: Now, earlier this week, Governor Ronda Santis introduced a new map, and it's in a very aggressive gerrymander.
Nick Corusani: 这将取消该州目前八个民主党选区中的四个。
Original English
Nick Corusani: It would eliminate four of the eight Democratic districts currently in the state.
Michael Baro: 一半。哇。
Original English
Michael Baro: Half. Wow.
Nick Corusani: 是的。这是一次重大的州政治划分重划。现在,在证明重新绘制地图的合理性时,DeSantis 州长曾指出,即将到来的法院裁决是该州在中期选举前重新绘制地图的原因。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Yeah. It's it's a it's a significant redrawing of the state's political divisions. Now, in justifying drawing new maps, Governor DeSantis had pointed to this looming decision before the court as a reason that the state needed to redraw its maps ahead of the midterms. And
Michael Baro: 他预测裁决将大致倾向于共和党。
Original English
Michael Baro: he anticipated that the ruling would go essentially Republicans way.
Nick Corusani: 确切地说。因此,今天,该州立法机构的共和党人通过了这些新地图。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Exactly. And so today, Republicans in the state legislature passed these new maps.
Michael Baro: 哇。尽管他们很可能会面临民主党人的法律挑战,但他们现在有了最高法院的新裁决可以引用,以确保这四个倾向共和党的选区能够在中期选举中到位。
Original English
Michael Baro: Wow. And while it's likely that they will see a legal challenge from Democrats, they now have a new decision from the Supreme Court to point to in their legal battle to ensure that these four new Republican leaning districts are indeed in place for the midterms.
Michael Baro: 是的。而且,如果佛罗里达州有人倾向于基于《投票权法案》对这些新地图提起法律挑战,那么基于最高法院的裁决,他们可能会感到相当沮丧。基本上,信息是:只要没有人明确表示这些新地图是为了歧视少数族裔,这种选区划分就是完全合法的。
Original English
Michael Baro: Right. And if anyone in Florida was inclined to try to legally challenge these new maps based on the Voting Rights Act, they are probably feeling pretty discouraged based on the Supreme Court ruling. The message basically is that so long as no one is explicitly saying these new maps are intended to discriminate against minorities, this gerrymandering will be perfectly legal.
Nick Corusani: 确切地说。至少在联邦层面是这样。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Exactly. Right. at least on the federal level.
Michael Baro: 那么,当我们把这一切联系起来看,我们期待佛罗里达州、路易斯安那州,也许还有其他几个地方出现新地图吗?我知道我们无法确定这是否会发生。如果有可能的话,这对在这次中期选举中,哪一方将通过选区划分获得结构性优势意味着什么?
Original English
Michael Baro: So when we put this all together, what do we expect new maps in a place like Florida, in Louisiana, perhaps in a couple of other places? I know we can't be certain that will happen. What is it likely to mean for the overall math of which party will have structural advantages from gerrymandering in this midterm cycle, if it's possible to say?
Nick Corusani: 在进入11月之前,地图将略微但稳固地倾向于共和党。这部分是由于今天的裁决,也部分是因为全国各州绘制新地图的近一年的努力。
Original English
Nick Corusani: There will be a slight but established Republican tilt to the maps heading into November. And that's in part due to the decision today and it's also in part due to just the now nearly year-long attempt to draw new maps in states across the country.
Michael Baro: 嗯。但这肯定不是特朗普总统和他的顾问们去年在德克萨斯州开始这场斗争时所设想的双位数席位优势。
Original English
Michael Baro: Mhm. But it it's certainly not the multi-seat cushion, you know, in the double digits that President Trump and his advisers had envisioned when they started this fight in Texas last year,
Michael Baro: 对吧?这不足以抵消民意调查目前显示的共和党人面临的一些严峻政治挑战,无论是伊朗战争、油价上涨,还是总统普遍不受欢迎。
Original English
Michael Baro: right? It's not enough to counter what maybe polling suggests at the moment are some serious political challenges for Republicans, whether it's the war in Iran, rising gas prices, and the president's general unpopularity.
Nick Corusani: 是的,没错。在我们谈话开始时,Nick,你说这项裁决可能会进一步加剧两党之间本已激烈的选区划分“军备竞赛”。我记得我们的同事 Nate Con 说过,如果最高法院最终基本上“切断”了《投票权法案》(他们似乎已经开始这样做了),那么随着时间的推移,可能会导致约十几个众议院席位从民主党控制转移到共和党手中。所以,如果我们相信 Nate 的话,他是个聪明人。让我们谈谈我们如何预计民主党将如何应对这个问题,因为民主党人在加利福尼亚州和现在的弗吉尼亚州等地,在对抗共和党选区划分方面变得非常激进且敏捷。我看到已经有呼吁民主党人抓住这个时刻,将他们的一些州完全变成蓝色。你有什么看法?
Original English
Nick Corusani: Yes, exactly. At the beginning of our conversation, Nick, you said that this ruling is likely to further the already intense arms race over gerrymandering by both parties. And I recall that our colleague Nate Con said that if the Supreme Court ended up more or less gutting the Voting Rights Act, which it seems they have started to really do in this ruling, that it over time could eliminate something like a dozen House seats from Democratic control and ensure that they're in Republican hands. So taking Nate at face value, he's a smart guy. Let's talk about how we expect Democrats to respond to this because Democrats have become very aggressive and pretty nimble at countering Republican gerrymandering in places like California, now Virginia. And I'm seeing that there are already calls for Democrats to take this moment, seize it, and turn some of their states entirely blue. What do you expect?
Nick Corusani: 那么,对于2026年的中期选举,民主党人已经打出了他们的牌。他们在弗吉尼亚州和加利福尼亚州重新划分了选区,并在犹他州通过法院获得了支持。
Original English
Nick Corusani: So for the immediate for the 2026 midterms, Democrats have have played their hand. They've redrawn in Virginia and in California, and they got a boost by courts in Utah.
Michael Baro: 嗯。
Original English
Michael Baro: Mhm.
Nick Corusani: 但我认为今天裁决最明显的政治后果是,这些在本十年中期开始的选区划分战争——你知道,这非常罕见——将蔓延到2028年,并且会扩大。 already, 民主党人在纽约和科罗拉多州已经开始探索在2028年前重新绘制地图的过程。今天,Hokll 州长表示,我将继续下去。
Original English
Nick Corusani: But I think the clearest political outcome of today's decision, is that these redistricting wars that started in the middle of the decade, you know, which is very rare, are going to spiral into 2028 and they're going to expand. Already, Democrats in New York and Colorado have begun to explore the process of redrawing their maps ahead of 2028. And today, Governor Hokll indicated, I'm going to continue on that.
Michael Baro: 嗯。
Original English
Michael Baro: Mhm.
Nick Corusani: 其他州,如伊利诺伊州和马里兰州,民主党人对地图绘制过程拥有完全的控制权。他们已经绘制了相当激进的杰利蝥图,但考虑到今天的裁决以及这些地图争夺战的高度党派性质,他们可能会做得更进一步。马里兰州的民主党人可能会再次尝试消除该州最后一个共和党席位。而伊利诺伊州的民主党人可以有效地分割或分散芝加哥选民,并消除该州所有的共和党席位。这会是一张看起来相当奇怪的地图,有很多“意大利面条”般的线条,但这是有可能的。今天,Pritsker 州长表示他可能会考虑这一点。他只是说,“我们有选择。”所以,这最可能带来的长远影响是,一种非常赤裸裸的杰利蝥图形式,在这种形式下,如果你恰好不是你所在州的政治多数派,你很可能会发现你的政治权力被完全剥夺。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Other states like Illinois and Maryland, Democrats have complete control over the map drawing process. They've already drawn pretty aggressive gerrymanders, but given today's ruling and the aggressively hyperpartisan nature of these battles over maps, they could go even further. Maryland Democrats could try again to eliminate the final Republican seat in that state. And Democrats in Illinois could effectively split apart or spread across Chicago voters and eliminate every Republican in that state. Now, that would be a pretty wacky looking map with a lot of spaghetti strings, but it's in the realm of possibility. And today, Governor Pritsker indicated that he might entertain this. And he simply said, "We have options." So what this is most likely to unleash over time is a very brazen form of gerrymandering in which if you happen to not be in the political majority in your state, you are likely to find your political power totally neutered.
Michael Baro: 是的,我们可能会看到一个各方都走向极端的局面。但 Nick,回到《投票权法案》,在我们结束这次谈话时,这项被最高法院在周三的裁决中削弱的法律。有一件事我们知道,虽然我们有很多猜测,但我们并不完全确定,几乎可以肯定的是,这项裁决将导致拥有黑人选民多数的国会选区数量减少。而且,作为像你一样长期研究投票权和选区划分的人,这对黑人政治力量在这个国家被这样稀释意味着什么?
Original English
Michael Baro: Yeah, we could see a place where everyone rushes to the extreme. But Nick, just to return to the Voting Rights Act as we finish this conversation, the law that was weakened by the Supreme Court with Wednesday's ruling. One thing we know as we are speculating about lots of things we don't quite know is that almost for sure this ruling will result in fewer congressional districts having a majority of black voters in it. And as somebody who's studied voting rights and gerrymandering as long as you have, what is it going to mean for black political power in this country to be diluted in that way?
Nick Corusani: 我认为我们可以看看已经发生的事情,对吧?就像看看过去一年和全国的选区划分战争。在德克萨斯州、密苏里州和北卡罗来纳州,已经有许多黑人国会议员的席位被剥夺了。所以,看看在有“护栏”的情况下这种情况已经发生,你可以想象一旦“护栏”被移除,这种情况会如何迅速蔓延,对吧?我们大部分时间都在谈论这对国会的影响。
Original English
Nick Corusani: I mean, I think we can look at what's already been done, right? Like just look at this past year and the national redistricting wars. There have been numerous black members of Congress who have seen their seats drawn away in Texas and in Missouri and in North Carolina. And so seeing how that's already happened when the guardrails were on,
Michael Baro: 但今天的裁决也可能影响州立法机构和县一级的界线。这项裁决也为州立法者提供了机会,让他们重新绘制自己的选区,或者重新绘制地方市和市政选区,以争取党派优势。对吧?这仍然是关于权力,但这样做,他们将摧毁一些黑人占多数的选区。而那些地方竞选很重要,因为它创造了一个低层民选官员的管道,低层黑人官员有机会最终攀登政治阶梯,最终进入国会。
Original English
Michael Baro: But today's ruling could impact state legislative lines and county lines. This ruling also creates an opportunity for state lawmakers to redraw their own districts or local city and municipal districts to try and gain a partisan edge. Right? It's still about power, but in doing so, they would be decimating some of these black majority districts. And those local races are important because it it creates a pipeline of lower elected officials, lower black elected officials getting an opportunity to eventually climb the political ladder and eventually end up in Congress.
Nick Corusani: 是的。所以总的来说,政府中的黑人领导层会减少。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Right. So there will in general be less black leadership in government.
Nick Corusani: 嗯,可能会,但也有另一面,那就是蓝色州。所以,有可能这些民主党州会创建新的选区,新的民主党选区,由黑人国会议员代表。而且,我认为,也至关重要的是要记住,民主党内部的黑人投票力量仍然非常强大。他们在总统提名过程中拥有巨大的影响力。在普选方面,他们是民主党基础的核心群体。所以,只要存在两党制,他们的声音就不能被抹去。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Well, there there could be, but there's a flip side to this and that's the blue states. So there's a possibility that these democratic states create new districts, new democratic districts that are represented by black members of Congress. And it's also, I think, critical to remember that the black voting power within the Democratic party is still really strong. They hold an outsize impact in the presidential nominating process. They're a core block in the Democratic base when it comes to general elections. So their voice can't be erased as long as there is a two-party system.
Michael Baro: 所以,归根结底,种族和党派之争都与每个人如何应对这项裁决紧密相连。
Original English
Michael Baro: So at the end of the day, race and partisanship are just inextricably linked when it comes to how everyone will respond to this ruling.
Nick Corusani: 确切地说。我们正处于一个高度党派化、高度两极分化、不容任何妥协的时代。而这一切都是为了获得优势,以便你的政党能够维持权力。所以,全国范围内的选区划分战争、投票权斗争,其根本都是源于对纯粹党派权力的渴望和目标。所以,很难在这个背景之外来看待这项决定及其对美国政治的影响。
Original English
Nick Corusani: Exactly. We're in a hyperpartisan, hyper polarized, give no inch era. and everything is about gaining an advantage so that your party can hold on to power. So the national redistricting wars, the battles over voting rights, what's been underpinning all of that is a desire and a goal of pure partisan power. So it's hard to see this decision and what it's going to do to American politics outside of that context.
Michael Baro: Nick,非常感谢你。感谢邀请。我们马上回来。
Original English
Michael Baro: Nick, thank you very much. Thanks for having me. We'll be right back.
其他新闻简报
Michael Baro: 今天还有其他事情需要您了解。这场“选择的战争”在各个层面都是政治和经济灾难。总统让自己和美国都陷入了另一场中东战争的泥潭。在国防部长 Pete Hegth 首次在国会面前就“反伊朗战争”发表讲话时,他抨击了国会中质疑特朗普政府战略的人。你污辱了部队, congressman,你应该知道得更清楚。几个月了, congressman,你应该知道得更清楚。几个月了,你称之为泥潭,把宣传给了我们的敌人。你这样做是可耻的。
Original English
Michael Baro: Here's what else you need to know today. This war of choice is a political and economic disaster at every level. The president has got himself and America stuck in the quagmire of another war in the Middle East. In his first appearance before Congress since the start of the war against Iran, Defense Secretary Pete Hegth assailed those in Congress who have questioned the Trump administration's strategy. The way you stain the troops when you tell them two months in, two months in, Congressman, you should know better. Shame on you calling this a quagmire two months in handing propaganda to our enemies. Shame on you for that statement.
Michael Baro: 在听证会上,Hegs 的一名助手承认了战争的全部财务成本,估计为250亿美元。
Original English
Michael Baro: During the hearing, an aid to HEGs acknowledged for the first time the full financial cost of the war, putting it at $25 billion.
Michael Baro: 而在5月15日我的主席任期结束之后,我将继续担任州长一段时间,具体时间待定。周三,美联储主席 Jerome Powell 表示,即使在他作为领导者的任期结束后,他仍将留在央行董事会。这是一个偏离传统的做法,他说这是为了保护美联储免受总统的法律攻击。其中一项攻击是对美联储总部翻修的刑事调查。去年,特朗普政府暂停了这项调查。但 Powell 表示,这项调查使他别无选择,只能继续留在董事会,直到它得到充分、透明的解决。我担心这些攻击正在损害这个机构,并危及对公众真正重要的东西,那就是在不考虑政治因素的情况下进行货币政策的能力。
Original English
Michael Baro: And after my term as chair ends on May 15, I will continue to serve as a governor for a period of time to be determined. On Wednesday, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, said he would remain on the central bank's board even after his time as its leader ends. A departure from tradition that he said was necessary to protect the Fed against legal attacks from the president. One of those attacks has been a criminal investigation into the Fed's renovation of its headquarters. An investigation that the Trump administration suspended last week. But Powell said that the investigation left him no choice but to stay on the board until it was fully and transparently resolved. I worry that these attacks are battering the institution and putting at risk the thing that really matters to the public, which is the ability to conduct monetary policy without taking into consideration political factors.
Michael Baro: 今天这一集由 Alex Stern 和 Jessica Ch 制作。由 Devin Taylor、Rob Zipco 和 Liz O Balin 编辑,Michael Benois 提供协助。音乐包括 Rowan Yesto、Dan Powell 和 Marian Lozano。我们的主题音乐由 Wonderly 创作。本集由 Alyssa Moxley 负责工程。这就是今天的“每日新闻”。我是 Mabaro。明天见。
Original English
Michael Baro: Today's episode was produced by Alex Stern and Jessica Ch. It was edited by Devin Taylor, Rob Zipco, and Liz O Balin with help from Michael Benois. contains music by Rowan Yesto, Dan Powell, and Marian Lozano. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for the daily. I'm Mabaro. See you tomorrow.