but when you take a longer term view you make fewer decisions the fewer decisions you make the better they tend to be.

You know, if you make one decision a month, it tends to be better and if you make 10 a day.

Good afternoon, everybody, uh, welcome to another session of of Goldman Sachs talks and I'm delighted to be joined today by the CEO of noris Bank investment management Nikolai tangon.

So first of all, let's welcome Nikolai to Goldman Sachs.

So Nikolai is responsible for the management of the government pension fund um, it's the world's largest Sven weth fund um, owning about 1.4% of the world's listed companies.

Nikolai also runs the daily operations of NES Bank investment management, he was previously the chief executive officer and chief investment officer of AKO Capital One of Europe's top investment management firms.

Nikolai founded AKO capital and also established the AKO Foundation which aims to support educ ation, promote the Arts and combat climate change.

We're obviously going to talk to Nikolai about noris Bank how Investments can drive change leadership and what he's learned from some of the top leaders in the world from your podcast.

So um, I'm looking forward to talking about that and so if it's okay, we're going to kind of Jump Right In so cool.

Okay, well, so you're coming up on your fifth year anniversary as a CO of noras Bank investment management, Norway's $1.7 trillion investment fund.

And the fund is up 60% C that you took over in 2020.

Talk about the responsibility of stewarding you know, a pool of capital this large talk a little bit about how you kind of think about that responsibility and how it's kind of framed the way you've tried to set this up over the P five years.

Yeah, it's a you know, it's a big responsibility because it's uh, it's such a kind of big fund for a very small country.

And um, despite we only use 2 and a half% of the fund every year, it it provides more than 20% of the state budget.

And we have on our website a ticker which is the live value of the fund and is updated 13 times per second.

So uh, pretty kind of live and it's the most watched number in the country, so everybody is focusing in on it.

So um, big responsibility, but it's made easier by the fact that we have a mandate a really really good mandate which is uh, basically made by the Ministry of Finance.

And it's got broad politically uh, it's broadly politically anchored so all the political parties agree with what we're doing.

It means that they will not change their mind at the wrong time and so that's good.

And then also of course, I don't do it on my own, we are 700 people, uh, really really great team.

And um, and then you know, um, yes, there are a lot of zeros, uh, in uh, you know, 19,000 billion Norwegian Groner, but you don't really think about those numbers, right?

You think about doing the right thing, doing the right processes and then the numbers would follow.

Yeah, I I know that that some of the guiding principles are to be long-term oriented and diversified, but talk a little bit about how you decide where to invest, yeah, and how do you decide where not to invest?

Yeah, so um, again, the ministry has this mandate, um, and but at the same time, we have to do it in a in a you know ethical way.

So we have a separate Council of Ethics which decides where we cannot invest.

We don't invest in in Coal, uh, weapons and so on and there are some countries where we don't invest.

And so uh, you know, that's kind of the broad the broad picture.

We are very Diversified, we are we own uh, some 9,000 companies, uh, across the whole world.

In Europe, we own a bit more close to well, two and a half to 3% across Europe.

Yeah, yeah, so so I know that one of the things that that that you've said repeatedly is you really aim to be the most transparent investment Fund in the world.

Talk a little bit about the benefits of transparency when you're running an investment pool like this and how you think about you know, transparency as a principle.

Yeah, I to me transparency is like totally key.

Uh, transparency increases trust, you know, if the more uh, your clients can see the more they trust you.

We uh, disclose every holding we have twice a year.

Um, and we are the most transparent fun in the world, there's actually a world championship in transparency.

Is there?

Yeah, and for for a period of time didn't know that that's that's the sport I'm doing, uh, now for a while.

The Canadians were number one and I thought, hey, it's fine that the Canadians beat us in ice hockey, but it's not fine that they beat us in transparency.

That's awesome.

Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about climate because I know it's a it's an area of focus for you.

Talk a little bit about the private sector, the role the private sector should play, the role investors play when it comes to the environment and sustainability.

Do you do you see how do you think about the long-term investment opportunity around these long cycle transition issues?

Well, so so we care about climate because it is a Financial Risk.

Mhm, we see it now in a lot of the commodity uh prices.

You see it in you know, coffee, olive oil, orange juice, all these kind of things where you know, the prices are going up because Harvest harvests are worse because of the climate.

So they are so climate and the financial Market is linked in a different way than it has been before.

Um, so we spend a lot of time working with our companies making sure they do the right thing on climate.

I appreciate there's been a backlash in the US we haven't really seen that to the same extent in Europe and for sure in Norway we continue to to have the same opinions as we've had uh before.

I think there are investment opportunities in that space as well now which are better than before.

We got uh the opportunity to uh invest in renewable infrastructure four years ago.

And in the beginning we were just like really really slow because we thought the returns were too low, too many people changing the deals, but now that's changed.

So we think there are better returns in the space, there's a bit more supplies, so you can deploy more capital.

And we have beefed up the team and and doing more than that in renewable infrastructure.

Specifically or or more broadland talk a little your your five years in kind of frame for me what are what are a handful of kind of key accomplishments in these first five years and what are a handful of the most important learnings?

Yeah, um, yeah, so first of all, it's it's not me, right?

It's about uh, uh, the big team, but what have we focused in on?

Well, we focused in on on performance of course, because without performance we have no reason to be.

Um, and it's very much about learning from mistakes, it's we've created this uh, investment simulator where all the data from every PM is up in up in the cloud.

And when you want to make a decision, you get it all fed back to you, all your weaknesses, all your bad habits.

You know, are you normally uh, selling losers too late, are you selling winners too early?

When you trade, you basically get all these signals fed back to you and so that's been a big development which is now starting to change investment Behavior.

It's really cool, very good.

Um, we're also working on getting people to be more contrarian in the trades they do and more longterm.

You know, the most difficult thing is to be longterm.

Why is it so difficult?

Why you come to work on a Monday and it's just like you come home and you tell your husband, you know, and he asks you what did you do today?

Well, I did nothing, you know, Tuesday nothing, nothing, Wednesday, nothing, Thursday, nothing.

You know, you don't feel great about it and so sometimes the best thing is not to do very much, but it's very profitable.

You know, compounding is just amazing, compounding compounding is a powerful thing unb that's what we're doing on investment side.

On the people side, more development of people, we are recruiting, we are recruiting better people.

On the communication side, much more transparency, more internal communication, more external communication.

And then operational robustness better and you know, more focus in on Cyber.

So we we just done a lot of.

Thanks, you're a shareholder, you you mentioned 9,000 companies, I know Goldman Sachs is one of those companies.

We appreciate that, we thank you for all your hard work.

We're working, we're working hard and because you guys are working hard, we're working hard, we're working hard.

What um, talk a little bit about investor dialogue, what makes for an effective investor dialogue and how important is investor dialogue for you with respect to the companies?

It's very very important.

Um, we have more than 3,000 meetings a year with our companies.

We uh, you know, we turn up at uh, nearly 10,000 agms, we vote on uh, 120,000 proposals.

We know we got a be big machinery, uh, doing this.

It's important to be consistent over time so that you as a CEO know that we are not like changing our mind all the time.

One of the things I found very interesting about our dialogue with you is you know, I I would say you know, your team when they deal with us, they are deep in the weeds Deep In The Weeds, um, on really trying to understand how we're thinking about things.

Do you how do do you do that by industry sector, do you do that how do you do that in the context of we have?

We have we have industry sectors, we got some really strong sectors, I think our banking team is uh, is really superb.

Um, so that's how we do it.

Now, you know, there are two ways you can deal with problems as a as an owner, you can just you can sell your holding or you can go into a dialogue.

Now what what kind of problem do you solve by selling your holding?

Nothing.

You know, let's say now you have a company which is doing, you know, not so good stuff on climate, you sell everybody sells the holding, what happens?

Well, you the company ends up in the hands of people who don't care, you know, so it's just not good.

It's better to hold it and to talk and to Advocate and to engage.

It's like when you feel like when you have a problem at home, you can just is kind of sold off or you can try to fix it.

That's the try to fix it is a better strategy often.

Yeah, listen and understand first.

Yeah, yeah, so in the first half of 2024, your fund post posted $138 billion in profit largely and kind of the acceleration of large cap Tech.

Talk a little bit let's talk a little bit about AI, yeah, kind of the future of AI investment, what what are some of the risks of concentration in the market?

I mean, at the moment, you know, when you you look at kind of the large cap indexes and what's going on, you have enormous concentration.

And if you're not, you know, overweighted to this handful of stocks, you're going to unperformed.

Talk a little bit about how you thinking about.

Yeah, it's a it's a level of concentration we've never seen before, right?

M uh, as you know, hugely concentrated in very few names.

The big problem here in my mind is that they are all linked into the same geopolitical risk.

And so we have not seen before one the concentration we seen two the link with geopolitical risk and that's just very risky.

And so I think the risk in the public market is um, probably higher than in the private market now.

Yeah, yeah, and in the past, you know, we looked at kind of risks well, uh Public Market not risky, private Market very risky.

I think perhaps it's changed.

So talk since you raised the private Market talk a little bit about kind of, you know, private Market talk a little bit about the fact that you know, obviously in public markets, we have a narrowing of lised companies.

Um, we also I think, you know, given the burden of operating, you know, as a public company, um, you know, we have people waiting longer, um, to take markets, you know, take companies to the public market.

There's more availability of capital in a private form, how do you think about the private the private markets?

How do you think about the growth of private Capital?

Um, where do you think we are, you know, more secular growth?

Well, I think it's very interesting.

You know, you now have supposedly the number of listed companies in the US has gone from 8,000 to 4,000.

You're seeing the same development in Europe, using it pretty much all over the place.

Private Market companies stay private for longer, they get bigger, uh, and so on.

So um, I mean, unfortunately, it's a space where we are not operating.

Yeah, so it's not in our mandate to be in the private market and but there is a political process, so so it may change, but not for now.

Um, you know, I think ideally one should be in in both.

6% annual returns that of steadiness that reliability has earned enormous trust from the people of Norway.

Um, some critics probably say you can perform at a higher rate, yeah, how do you how do you think about that?

How do you how do you view because there's no question, you know, risk reward has to be balanced when you think about long-term returns.

How do you kind of Benchmark how do you think about that?

Yeah, again, um, coming back to this uh, mandate that we have for the ministry which in Broad terms, you know, lay out how we should be invested.

We have we have roughly 70 % in equities, 30% in bonds.

We have uh, a real estate portfolio where we got like thousand properties around the world.

We got quite a lot of ownership on you know air on Manhattan as well.

Um, so um, it the returns could have been higher historically had we been in private markets, but uh, you know, we are not.

Um, you know, we have compounded between 6 and 7% for the last 28 years.

And um, and that's been good.

So so you look at the value of the fund now onethird of the fund is uh, the value of money that the government has put in and 2/3 is returns.

Yeah, so it's quite it's quite amazing.

In a way, we found oil twice, one on the Norwegian shelf y second time in financial markets.

Yeah, when you think about um, kind of risk reward, you know, over a long period of time and you think about compounding, you know, in particular when you own a great asset, will you own it forever?

Do you feel like if you really had an incredible asset, you say we're going to own this for 50 years?

Uh, personally, yes.

Mhm, that's the way I would construct the portfolio.

Now when you have portfolio managers who are incentivized on a let's say three-year rolling basis, it's difficult to get people not to trade very much.

And so we try to extend the time Horizon on this.

Um, we are probably going to put in a a fiveyear element in the comp um, which I think you need to do to get people to kind of take a longer view.

A longterm view, because you take a longer term view, um, you make fewer decisions.

The fewer decisions you make the better that tend to be.

You know, if you make one decision a month, it tends to be better and if you make 10 a day.

Right, sure, you save of course, uh, I mean of course you you would hate to hear this, but you save trading commission.

And so I don't really hate to hear it because I think it's I think it's fundamentally right.

I you know, I love the fact though that there are so many incentive schemes that actually force people to create velocity around Capital.

But I you know, one of the things it's one of the things I've never really understood is when you think about the way the whole private Capital Market is structured, it's actually structured to create velocity of capital.

And you know, I think you know, I think most Pension funds just to take a broad example, not specific to you at all, but most Pension funds, you know, have much much longer dat of liabilities.

And so you know, why if you're allocating your money to a private Equity manager just to pick one, you know, one form of private Capital, why would you rather that they own something for four or five years and have an incentive system create velocity around it instead of to try to find they own a great company that can compound at 8 to 10%?

Okay, you want them to own it for 30 or 40 years, but there's very little the whole financial Market incentive system is not set up to do that.

Absolutely, but everything is moving faster, you know, there's more frequent trading.

Sure.

Um, you know, uh, you'd be surprised to hear, but over the last 30 years, people talk and walk 10% faster.

So you measure average speed of walking in a city and um, you know, compared to 30 years ago, you are 10% faster.

I mean, not you, but I've always been a fast Walker.

You've always been fast.

I think I I think IED just as fast now as I did 30 years ago.

Yeah, I'm I'm wondering whether the companies Sho I might talk a little bit slower now because unfortunately now people are listening to everything I say, so I've got to talk slower.

But but um, but but the walking things into people people, there's certainly an intensity.

Yeah, especially around markets, there's an intensity that didn't exist 34.

Yeah, it's it's Market, it's all you know, we always on uh, you know, mobile phones, uh, uh, it's 247 more activ, yeah, 247 for sure.

Let's let's shift gears, you launched this terrific podcast in Good Company in 2022, all about leadership.

Um, I was Lu the second guest was you, I was the second guest, I was say I was lucky to be a guest, thank you for making me the second guest.

I didn't realize I was the second guest, who was the first guest?

Uh, was the CEO BP.

Oh, but when you came on, you know, it was really cool because you know, you started saying it was a pilot, I didn't know whether it was good fly or not and uh, and bang you get the SEO of Goldman Sachs.

Wow, big deal, you know, so then we thought, hey, this could perhaps be a serious thing and now it's the biggest now is one of the leading business podast in the world.

You know, one of them and uh, uh, yeah, it's it's fun.

No, it's a big podcast, but I mean think about this, okay, have anybody listen to any anybody listen anybody heard the podcast?

Yeah, the the CEO what's what's wrong with the rest of you?

Start listening to the podcast, the CEO of the largest Sovereign wealth fund and a significant shareholder in Goldman Sachs calls and says, hey, will you go on my podcast?

Let me think about it, okay, I me that was not that was not a tough ask.

It was you I was really impressed because you responded within five minutes.

Okay, well, I I try to be very very responsive, but let's let's talk about the the podcast.

Yeah, you've interviewed dozens of CEOs at this point, dozens of CEOs.

Yeah, what similarities do you see?

Yeah, it's uh, very interesting because when you kind of cut them up into pieces and throw them up in the air and see where they land, it's uh, CEOs have a lot of uh, similarities, right?

Um, there is a lot of focus on uh, on grit, there is generally high level of energy.

I would say curiosity is very high up on the list.

So um, yeah, they have quite a little things in common.

Is good leadership changing and evolving?

I think it is, I think it is.

I think there is um, more focus in on listening skills, there is more on empathy, um, there is more on generally involving uh, you know, the people you work with in strategy development and so on.

And I think it makes it easier to actually execute.

And I also think the empathy element uh, I think is more important than ever before in a time of AI that we lean on what it is that makes us human.

And then I think there is a really interesting thing with the Indian leaders, you know, people with Indian backgrounds because they kind of broke through the glass ceiling and taken over the whole you know, Silicon Valley, right?

So what what what is it that they bring?

Well, I think they are more uh, in the know in what they're doing.

Um, there is something that the firm is bigger than themselves, uh, there is a lot of focus on empathy.

You know, such as sa Adella who talks about a huge empathetic very big on that.

Um, and that there is no uh, there is no uh, trade-off between empathy and execution, you know, it goes hand in hand.

So I I I think leadership is moving.

Are there differences in regions?

Uh, yes, you know, I suspect uh, us leaders are bit more extrovert, uh, uh, probably take a bit more risks than we do in Europe.

Um, Scandinavian is you think that's a positive?

Well, I actually think it's yes, it is a positive and it explains part of why we have a bit of a problem in Europe.

Uh, we don't take enough risks, you know, there is is combined with regulation and so on.

But the risk appetite and the level of ambition in America is really driving growth.

Yeah, the Innovation economy here and the willingness of people to start businesses, take risk, innovate, Drive growth is definitely contributing to kind of US economic.

Yeah, absolutely, but also also the absolutely.

And so so that's a bit of a cultural difference.

Yeah, when you look at these Leadership Lessons, you know, as you talk to different leaders, do you find yourself incorporating it somehow into the way you run the fund?

Totally.

Can you give a concrete example?

I tried to trying to integrate all the good stuff I learned, it's really really uh interesting, right?

I I mean, we we try to steal everywhere we can.

Talk about some, I mean, not money, but I mean ideas.

By the way, you know, imitation is the highest form of FL.

Absolutely, totally.

Talk talk about some of your favorite guests, what characteristics do they share As Leaders?

Uh, well, I think uh, I mean, in addition to you of course.

Yeah, put me aside.

Um, no, I think you can put them into different categories.

Of course, speaking to the tech leaders is amazing, right?

So you speak to Sam Olman, yanson hang, Bill Gates and so on and and they they basically look into the future, you know, um, they see what it looks like and they and and you learn that.

I think some of the people who are from different different places than actually Finance is quite fun, right?

We did Magnus Carlson, the best chess player in the world comparing chess strategy with investment strategy which like wow, you know, when do you take risks?

Do you take more risks after you lost or or do you take less risk?

You know, very oppos very different from what what we typically do, so just a lot of uh, learnings from that.

Um, stoltenberg, the NATO Secretary General on geopolitics and so on.

And then um, some of the real long-term thinkers like the walberg's in Sweden, really interesting.

I would say it's perhaps the one thing that characterizes great investors, it's uh, conviction and the ability to be contrarian and not think about what other people think and then be able to change and the combination stubborn and be able to change your mind really really rare.

That's a great great way to frame it.

What advice can you share about steps leaders should prioritize when they take a new job to lead an organization?

I understand when you took this job, you actually kind of had a road map or a list of priorities that you wanted to follow.

You have do you have advice around that?

Yeah, it was great.

So I got this job, uh, I rang the best C I've ever met and I said, hey, I got this new job, what should I do?

Like well, what you should do that's easy, you first have to talk to a lot of people in The Firm, do it before you start your job.

Then you show respect, uh, they need need to get to know you and you need to get to know them, you get more data points, so you make better decisions.

They feel included, they feel heard, so that when you CH make changes, they will be with you.

Then you put together a leader group, you do not hire people from the outside during your first year.

You define you define your DNA of the firm and you show everybody else in the firm that you respect what they do.

And then you make changes as a combined leadership group, you mustn't do it on your own because you can trigger what is called the kind of the corporate immune system where basically they squeeze you out.

So you do it as a combined group and then you pick a few things, not too many and don't do them, don't make them the changes too fast.

The people who fail other the people who try to do too much too fast.

Yeah, and so we we made changes and I think twice we felt that we were moving a bit too fast and we slow down.

But I think that's the way to do it.

You you mentioned Grit tole i' I've I've always thought the grit is a you know not just for leadership but kind of for success in life in business, you know, the grit is a hugely hugely you know valuable personal characteristic.

Talk a little bit about how you think about grit and how it how it plays a role as people approach challenges.

Ah, it's it's totally key, it's just how you cope with things, right?

I think you can it's it's sometimes difficult to screen for it, but you when you hire, you see what people have been doing.

So I was interviewing this guy for uh, for a summer program, he like hey, what are you um, what have you done during your Summers?

I worked in a bakery.

Okay.

But I'm mean, uh, seven summers in a row, yeah, I mean, do you know when you need to wake up to work in a bakery?

It's like 3: in the morning, super early, super early, so we try to find it and I think you know, we are in a world where there is perhaps a bit less grit than before.

Um, the younger generation have uh, on average according to the Specialists a bit less great because they've been protected by the parents.

You know, parents are taking all the you know, a lot of the decisions and the problems and so therefore we have had less um, problems to cope with.

You think that's you think that's permanent or you think that's cyclical?

Well, so that's interesting U but I do think it also it explains some of the you know, it's not easy to be young these days and it could be that you just have had too much protection.

I think it's cyclical because I think the next generation is just like, hey, you know what, my parents kind of screwed me up, I'm certainly not going to do the same mistake.

And so I think he's going to get you know, into that kind of stuff.

In other words, my parents didn't get a hoot what I was doing, you know, I mean they basically said come home when the street lights go on.

Absolutely, okay, that certainly wasn't the way my kids grow up.

Yeah, I mean, you know, my I remember my father, he said, uh, Nikolai, have you heard about the hedge fund?

He like Daddy, I've been I worked for hedg for 10 years now.

Shift gears, you're passionate about European competitiveness and it was interesting what you said a few moments ago when we were talking about you know, innovation and and regulation.

I mean, I just I I would just observe one of the things that that you know, I saw you know, recently that just kind of I I I thought you know, the European Union got so wrong was when the regulatory infrastructure came out and said we have to protect Europe from AI.

It's almost like the opposite how do we encourage Europe to be taking risks and investing in in AI?

Talk a little bit about what Europe can do to be more competitive.

Yeah, it's a very very difficult question, right?

Um, I mean on AI, we think it needs some kind of Regulation and oversight.

But the thing is that in Europe, we have a lot of Regulation and in my mind regulations are one one one by one, they're pretty good, right?

There's a reason why you regulate that and why you regulate that and why you regulate that.

But it's a bit like you come into a bar and each bottle tastes pretty good, but when you put everything into a bucket, it doesn't taste so good.

Long Island Ice te.

Yeah, well, that's only like six six, it's only six, yeah, or whatever.

Uh, so it's very regulated and um, and I think that the kind of the heavy level of Regulation combined with uh, kind of competition Authority which has insisted that there should be huge competition in all areas in all countries means that you have a pretty fragmented market.

Right, there is not one big Bank, uh, in every country, you have three Telecom operators.

So you basically have nearly 30 in the whole of Europe, whil three in the whole of the us.

So you get uh, quite small players in a lot of different places and that means that they are not globally competitive.

Now this may be changing, uh, hopefully and I think it does, but you know, there is a lot of stuff to do.

And if you want to read a good report on this, it's a druggy report which came out a little while back, really report it's just the kind of things we need to do.

Now what you need to do takes it costs a lot of money and it takes strong political will and so we'll see what happens.

Leadership takes leadership.

Takes leadership, yeah, it's is not easy.

Yeah, yeah, so to live in Europe and in in America, uh, is pretty good.

Yeah, I was going to say Europe is a great place to live, it's a fantastic place to live.

Yeah, and you know, there are some really serious questions about kind of social Fabric and and those kind of things, right?

And uh, and social protection, um, and for sure we have that in Europe.

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I've found fascinating is I've gotten to know you over the last you know, five six years is you love to learn, you have lots of diverse interests, you know, outside of Finance including degrees you've completed as an adult in art history and Social Psychology.

Talk a little bit about getting those degrees as an adult and how it's affected you know, kind of the way you invest how it's affected kind of your thought process around life.

Yeah, so it depends on you know, how do you how do you measure your life some people measure their success in in money.

I don't do that.

I think you know, some people think the people who's got the most money when he or she dies is has won.

So I think that's totally wrong, I think think they have lost because first of all, they should have given it away.

Right, but I think the person who knows the most when he or she dies, they are the winners.

So you need to learn as much as you can.

And so you know, I tried to learn all the time.

So um, uh, and I think the one of the most interesting thing I've studied is uh, social psychology because there it kind of teaches you how people think, what kind of risk they take, what what are the drivers in their lives and so on.

And we've put quite a lot of that into work in the fund, uh, it's the whole idea behind the uh, the investment simulator.

It's just how you can learn and how you know what are your weaknesses as a Trader and so on that comes from that.

How you use your analysis versus gut feel or pattern recognition that's interesting.

You know, how you cope with being contrarian, all these kind of things.

So um, I do think it's very interesting how you can combine things with finance and most of the Innovations these days come from how you combine uh, you know, information in new ways.

I think it's really fascinating, you know, you're touching a little bit on culture, culture is hugely important success.

I read an article by a Norwegian author who praised your form of leadership saying I quote you embody the image of a modern Viking always in motion, constantly active, busy, they were Keen uh, to explore.

Yeah, um, they supposedly they were very consensus driven.

Mh, so I don't know how they did that, like, hey, which Village are we going to pillage?

Uh, let's vote for it.

Uh, but um, but supposedly and it explains why why leadership form in the noric countries is more consensual, uh, supposedly somebody told me.

Yeah, um, no, I think you want you be curious, I think you want to move around, I think you want to do different things.

You know, it's important not to be not to have too strong habits, it's important to break them up.

So for instance, you know, do you know when during the holiday you are the most happy after it's over?

No, uh, the the the 43rd hour that's after which you start to get uh, uh, habituated with where you are.

As you come to these nice places, really sunny, it's wonderful, wow, Blue Water, right, that is just like amazing for the first 43 hours and then it starts to become habit.

And so you need to break it up, you need to do some more things.

So for instance, I live in uh, in New York now for the whole of November, it's fantastic, fantastic.

I just, you know, times have never been more exciting.

I wake up in the morning, I just cannot way to get out of bed.

And uh, it's just never been more exciting and let's not forget that this is the world we live in, right?

We have uh, technology change has never been faster, geopolitics never more exciting.

Hey, us election coming up, really exciting too.

Nikolai, thank you, this has been terrific, really appreciate you taking the time to do it.

Thank you very much, that was great, really appreciate you doing it.