Hey everyone, it's Anna. Before we start the show, I want to ask you a question. And please don't be offended if it sounds a little direct.

Okay, here goes. Are money issues affecting your relationship?

Money can be awkward and sensitive to talk about how much to save, how much to spend, who makes the decisions about what?

But if you're not talking about money, it can cause even bigger problems.

We have an episode coming up soon where I'll be talking to Rammit Sati. He hosted the Netflix show How to Get Rich. He's written books on personal finance.

If this sounds like something you want to be a part of, please send us a short voice memo.

Tell us about a moment you and someone you loved had tension around money. It could be your partner. It could be a family member.

Tell us what happened to set it off, what you said to each other or didn't say, and how you felt about all of it.

We might play your voice on the show and hear Rammit's advice on what you can do differently.

Please email your voice memo to modernlove podcastny times.com by November 3rd. There's instructions in our show notes. Please check those out.

All right, here's today's episode. Love now and you fall in love. Love was stronger than anything. For the love of love and I love you more than anything. There's still love. Love from the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love.

And on our show, infidelity comes up a lot.

So much so that I got to be honest, I kind of thought I'd heard it all.

But I recently learned about a way to handle getting cheated on that was totally new to me.

It involves hiring a highly specialized professional who claims they can make an affair just sort of disappear and make the cheaters think it was their idea to end it.

It's called mistress dispelling and it's become popular in cities across China.

Today I'm talking to Elizabeth Low. She's a filmmaker from Hong Kong who spent 3 years following one mistress dispeller.

When this mistress dispeller is working on a case she lies, she manipulates. but she's also remarkably compassionate to everyone involved.

After I saw this film, I could not stop thinking about it.

So, I asked Elizabeth to sit down with me to share what she learned.

And she told me how her own heart got broken along the way.

I remember thinking, why did I let this woman whose entire job is to orchestrate breakups influence my own belief in this relationship?

Elizabeth Low, welcome to Modern Love.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for being here. Your new documentary is called Mistress Dispeller.

I want to jump right in and ask you, can you explain what a mistress dispeller is?

Yes. So, it's this industry that's emerged in the last decade in China.

And it's a service that you can hire if you find out that your spouse is cheating on you.

But instead of directly confronting your spouse, as most people might do, you outsource this crisis to a woman.

Whose job is to infiltrate your family, befriend your your partner, likely a husband, um, under a false identity.

And then through her friendship with him, then gains access to his mistress.

And over the course of 2 to 3 months, the mistress dispeller gains their trust, gains their ear, and slowly and very subtly influences them to want to end the affair.

Her goal is to insert herself into your life and really into your cheating spouse's life without him knowing who she really is.

But she often herself as someone outside of their obviously their immediate friend circle in their family affairs.

So she's in the most neutralized least threatening position.

In mainland China, therapy is still very much stigmatized among middle classes or upper upper middle classes.

Because in China there's this concept that you know domestic shame should not be made public.

To air your dirty laundry to a total stranger um would be unthinkable.

And to preserve every party's dignity even in a conflict is deeply ingrained in Chinese and Asian culture.

And so a mistress dispeller is a fixer slther therapist family counselor slp private eye.

Let's talk about the mistress dispeller you focus on in this documentary known like teacher Wang.

And teacher is because that's just a literal translation of Wang Lao in Chinese which.

You might translate that into Mrs. Wang but we felt teacher Wang set her apart in the subtitles and gave her the sense of authority which people treated her with.

Certainly they did. her real superpower is gaining trust and in doing so kind of convince the parties that ending the affair is their idea almost right.

That's her whole yeah that's her whole emmo ending the affair has to be their own idea.

That's a lot of work I will say that's a lot of I mean it's so many mental.

It's almost like inception.

Does she have a notebook where she keeps track of everything she said to everyone or what's the.

Yeah she does have a a system of documentation of all her cases.

So that she cuz she has like it to us it it felt like she had at least 100 cases per year incoming that she was dealing with and constantly when we were filming with her she was always on the phone 12 hours 15 hours a day on the phone managing different crises that were cropping up.

From wives who are desperate husbands or mistresses you know who are suicidal and she's talking them down.

Somehow she has this remarkable ability to keep all of their stories in her head. I think mostly.

Wow.

Yeah.

The case teacher Wang focuses on in your film is with a family, the Lee family, the Lees.

Mrs. Lee discovers that her husband is cheating on her. Hires teacher Wang to dispel the mistress.

How does Teacher Wang insert herself into Mr. Lee's life without him knowing what she's up to.

So, Mr. and Mrs. Lee are known within their community to be this model couple who play have been playing badminton with each other for 30 years.

They love badminton.

They love badminton. Like, actually, when we were editing them, they were called the badminton couple.

Of course.

Yeah. They love tossing it over the net or whatever. Yeah.

And uh because the husband loves badminton, is really proud of his skill, um Wang figured out like what is your husband most passionate about? What is something he would be excited to share with someone else?

And obviously badminton was the first on the list.

And so they figured out that she would pretend to be a friend who's wanting to learn badminton, a friend of Mrs. Le.

So that's the setting in which she ingratiates herself into his life and positions herself in this way where she's very endearing because she's so bad at badminton.

She is bad.

Yeah. And and he's like trying to teach her.

Was she amping that up? She just couldn't play. Yeah.

I mean maybe, but I don't think so.

Okay.

Yeah. I think she was just genuinely bad.

But her like, you know, her her how sort of demir she is and like so how do I do the how do I hold the racket? I'm that's I'm sure all calculated.

And she's laying almost this trap that he's inevitably going to fall into in which he will then feel compelled to confess.

I don't want to divorce my wife, but I just also can't bring myself to give up this young woman that I've become entangled with.

So, in addition to getting close to the cheating husband, Mr. Lee, teacher Wayne has, I would argue, maybe an even more difficult job of getting the mistress herself to open up to her.

Can you describe how she sort of breaks down the wall with this mistress whose name is uh FE in the film?

So, she has convinced the husband that you have to introduce me to your mistress just so I can see what's going on with her, not to say that I want to get rid of her because he might be resistant to that.

Um, and he agrees to that.

And so, that's that was wild to me that he agreed to it.

But I mean were you surprised that he so readily agreed to introduce his mistress to this new friend of his in his understanding.

Because she has convinced him that she is someone who can help him in his life.

She's positioned herself as this guiding light in his life that I will help you through this complicated situation. We don't know how it will turn out but just let me get to know everybody involved and I can help you.

Exactly. Exactly. and she probably, you know, in the process of talking to him is drilling down on what are his resentments in his marriage, helping him feel heard.

Um, and then also making him begin to see the mistress as sort of an interloper in a what is precious, his family.

And so then he introduces um, Feay, the mistress, to Wang.

And the guys that he they come up with is that Wang wants to learn business and entrepreneurship from the mistress.

Wang is really ne wanting to learn a lot.

First she wants to learn bad things which is how she gets to know the husband.

Then she wants to learn business from the mistress. But so she's a sponge.

And you can tell that the mistress is a little skeptical. Like I'm not good at business. Why would she want to learn from me? I'm not worth learning from.

But Wang already has a backup plan built in that on the way to the badminton uh game again where they are going to meet.

This is their you know this is their infrastructure the social infrastructure in which they will.

The alternate title of this could have been the bad mitten game or uh that not only are they going to be playing badminton together.

But she has orchestrated it so that the husband is going to be called away by work and will abandon her at the bammon game 10 minutes in.

And the thing that she has already achieved is that the mistress feels is made to feel unimportant by the husband.

And in this way, in those moments Wang slowly sort of gains her trust or at least plants those seeds of doubt in Fe's mind about this relationship and how worthy is it for you to struggle for a relationship that's not even taking you seriously.

And it's there that we can in those sort of intimate conversations that they begin to have. That's where I think we really see teacher Wang's theory approach to infidelity become very clear.

And she has this this idea about who suffers the most in infidelity. I wonder if you could speak about about that.

Yeah. So in the most striking moment in the film that people always come to me and say that was a revelation when I heard that because it's it completely turns the issue of infidelity down its head.

She basically asks who do you think is in the most pain in a in a love triangle? Is it the wife or is it the mistress?

And she says while the wife may be hurting, it's actually the mistress who is willing to put herself in a situation where she is not deserving of a complete love that she is actually suffering the most because she doesn't love herself enough to be in a complete relationship out in the open.

And she's both hyper compassionate on one hand, I think that she can recognize, okay, these are young women often who need some degree of therapy.

And she talks about it as I need to help their cognition about themselves.

But on the other hand, in terms of her strategy, she's very ruthless and brutal towards what she's doing with the young woman's emotions in the moment that are painful in the moment, but maybe for a greater good.

I mean, so her idea is that it's the mistress who's feeling the most pain. Do you buy this? Like, was that borne out from the couples that you saw?

I think it makes a lot of sense in Wang's approach to these cases and it's an a philosophy that helps her approach these mistresses in a way that is hyperco compassionate and non-judgmental.

And so it's easy for the mistresses to trust her.

But I don't necessarily think on the whole it's it's that simple.

I think when you see a woman such as Mrs. Lee who's been betrayed by her husband after 30 years. I think that kind of heartbreak and betrayal is really profound as well.

Maybe you know betrayal by another human being who's so close to you. I think that is probably as profound as being betrayed by yourself which is in the mistress's case she it's herself that's betraying her.

But which maybe maybe Wang is right as I'm talking through this.

Wang is right that when you yourself betray yourself that is far worse than if another human being betrays you.

Wang always 10 steps ahead.

Wow. Yeah.

I mean it is it is perception. It really is to betray the mistress is betraying herself.

The wife is being betrayed by someone else which you cannot control in life.

Wow. In a way, it seems like teacher Wang sees her job as helping a mistress open her eyes or understand her worth.

100%. That's totally what it is.

But I I I think she's doing it with all three parties.

And that's why I was so so compelled to this premise because I saw in each of these three characters in each corner of the love triangle these really classical classically heroic journeys that they're going on.

The wife, she has to set aside her pride to save her family. She has to bite her tongue to save her family.

The husband is at this fork in the road which Wang makes him see.

You either have to choose your commitment and love for your family or you choose this life where you are pursuing your own individual desires.

And then with the mistress, she is like you said helping her see her own value enough to extricate herself from this love that is not satisfying.

M and where does that leave the le and and mistress FA I mean what is the ending h is a happy ending even the goal.

I think the ending of the film and I don't know how much I should be giving away bittersweet.

Um but as Wang would say each of them is somehow where they belong in the track that they belong.

When you ask her you know what is your success rate. She'll say 99% success rate because she says she's very clever.

She says that no matter what happens in the outcome of a case, she is always helping all three parties go back to or go to whatever tracks they belong in in life.

And if that sometimes does lead to divorce, um she'll say that's the track that is best for each of your lives.

And she will business a shrewd. It's like a handyman being like, "I will try to fix your sink, but if the sink stays broken, that's how the sink was meant to be."

Like 100%. Yeah.

And and because her powers of persuasion are so strong, she can convince, you know, the wife figure or the husband figure that however their love story turns out is in their best interest.

You know, I think often, at least I think about infidelity in terms of um in terms of retribution, like I'm going to find you out. I'm going to end this relationship. You're going to pay.

But the approach we see in your film avoids that confrontation, but at the same time, as we've spoken about, it does involve a lot of deception.

And I'm curious how you sort of calibrate those things.

I think the the huge blind spot or downside of this approach to solving a marital crisis is that there is no accountability.

Nobody has to take responsibility because everything is swept under the rug.

And I don't know what the consequences of that is exactly, but I I do, you know, just instinctually see that as a as a as an issue.

All the emotional labor, so much of it is taken on by the women in the case.

Now, that is that that feels true to me.

Yeah. But I think that that is just a symptom of the way our world is in which women around the world are doing so much emotional labor on behalf of all relationships.

Did immersing yourself in this world of mistress dispellers, did it change your own perspective on love or commitment or infidelity?

I will say I think the takeaway that I have drawn from this experience which for a long time was very muddled and you know uh there's a lot of cynicism that you can derive from witnessing case after case after case of this betrayal.

But for me it is a testament to love and enduring love and struggle for love and people failing to communicate.

But there's this like idealistic part of me that still very much believes that these people love each other.

There's a lot of love between all these people even if they're transgressing and even if they're failing in their marriages.

I think I've always been kind of a romantic and an optimist and I went in with that feeling.

Um, I had met someone that I felt very much in love with right before embarking on this project.

Wow.

And I remember over the course of the 3 years of making this film, we got engaged, but it fell apart by the end of the process of film making.

Sorry. Yeah.

And it's interesting because for the longest time I actually blamed teacher Wang, the mistress dispeller, for playing a hand in sort of dispelling me from my own relationship.

We'll be right back.

Elizabeth, you told me that you went through your own breakup when you were filming this documentary and that you blamed teacher Wang. Why?

She had somehow planted the seed um in the first year that I met her when I first revealed to her about my my kind of new relationship.

Yeah, my new relationship. My new relationship that I felt very confident about.

Um what did you tell her? You were like, I have this boyfriend and Okay. Yeah.

So, uh it was like after a long shoot day and we were eating takeout in her office floor and fun.

Yeah. You know, of course, naturally the conversation would turn to our own love lives.

And I said, "Oh, I have this this boyfriend." And, you know, we were friends at first and then, you know, I started to fall for him before he started to fall for me, but eventually he's reciprocated and now we're in love.

And I showed her a picture of the two of us. Classic.

And she looked at that picture in which we were sitting a meter apart because we were still friends at that point.

And he was sitting in a relaxed, confident way, but I was like sitting in this really like shy koi way with my shoulders kind of like up by my ears.

And she was like she was like repulsed by this image and was like, "Oh." Was like this.

Well, why'd you show her that pic?

I don't know. I didn't think there was anything wrong with this picture and I thought it was cute.

And then she she goes, "Oh, no, no, no. This is doomed. This will never work out."

And I was stunned because that's such a prescriptive, gigantic statement to make about someone's new relationship.

Yes, it is.

Yeah. Stunned. I would have felt offended.

I was very offended. But I also grew up in a household where criticism is love.

So I was curious. I wanted to understand my world.

It's probably why we do what we do. Totally.

And I was like, "Oh, why do you say that? What would lead you to say such a thing?

And you are also a documentarian. So instead of just being offended angry, you say, "Well, why? I'm open. I'm constantly porous to a fault."

And I said, and I said, "Um, why? Why do you say that?"

And she said, "Because he didn't," and this sounds so harsh.

Yeah. Yeah.

She said, and and I think because I was not one of her clients. She's no filter with me, right?

She says because he didn't like you at first. He didn't value you. He couldn't see your value from at the beginning, but he was moved by how good you were to him.

And that's how he fell for you. So in the future, the moment that you stop giving, then he will leave.

Holy You're like you're like eating noodles and then you're like, "What? I just showed you a picture of my boyfriend.

Yeah. And and you know, we had just started dating. We were deeply in love.

And I was like, but he respects me so much. Like he cares about my work. He's the one who pushed me to come here to find you.

And she says, she's quips. She's like, "Any man who's okay with their partner leaving them for such an extended period of time, there's a problem there."

Whoa. I mean, it's so it's so Well, okay, let me just say before I editorialize like, did you think what she said had some merit? Did you brush it off?

I brushed it off because I was so in love at that point.

And I told my boyfriend about this and he said, you know, why are you letting a stranger diagnose our relationship?

And I, you know, I agreed, right?

But it obviously those kind of profound statements can like sink into you some. They become embedded into your consciousness in a way that is almost impossible to erase.

That's my humble predicting a future that has not come yet, but it's a doomed future that may come at any point. Right.

And then so a year later, you're still making the film.

I'm still making the film. I return to China and this time I return engaged.

Wow.

You're like, "Look at that rock, Der Wang."

And I tell her, you know, feeling kind of triumphant like, "Look, I proved you wrong."

Yeah.

And she says, "Congratulations." quietly, but I can tell in her congratulations that it's a little bit skeptical.

You know how when you can tell when someone's not being totally genuine? But she's holding her tongue, right?

And I also decide I don't want to reveal too much to her anymore. I don't want her opinion.

Yeah. Um her negative opinion. Yeah.

So I am quiet about it. But I also notice in myself after a summer in which um we've had a lot of turmoil in our relationship despite being engaged over you know where are we going to live how are we going to raise children what the next 20 years are going to look like we had you know fundamental disagreements about that but I was still hanging on.

But I noticed in myself I was like why is it that a year ago I was I could be so vocal in my defense of our love but a year later I'm more by it and not able to bring myself to defend it even despite having taken this next step in your relationship.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, that started to disturb me and then over the course of shooting in China and we're in a long-distance relationship.

We're getting into all these fights, you know, jealousy, fundamental disagreements about what our future looks like and we weren't able to resolve the fights in long distance.

And at one point he asked for a break.

And in response I impulsively said, "Let's break up then."

And then 10 days later, I quickly regretted it.

And but then by the time I got back to him, he said he couldn't trust in the relationship anymore.

And in that moment, I thought, "Oh god, Wang was right."

Wow. that once things got tough, once you stopped giving that the relationship would end or that he would leave.

And I remember thinking, "Oh my god, Wang is right."

But then I got really angry and I was like, "Why did I let this woman whose entire job is to orchestrate breakups influence my own belief in this relationship in which I knew there was a deep love?"

Did you tell her by the way like we broke up or did you keep.

I told her I told her.

And how did she react?

I actually don't remember her reaction but probably just like yeah she that probably she's not going to say more and she never said anything else but it's just her quiet reads her presence and how she really knows people that lingered and had this like long staying power.

And in the film, the mistress says something like, "Wang's influence is like a quiet and soft drizzle. You barely feel it. You barely hear it, but it's there."

And I really feel like that was her influence.

And I don't think she actually influenced the outcome of my relationship.

I think in reflection, what I realized she was doing was just spotting something that I didn't spot myself, which is that I was a young woman who hadn't come into herself yet, who didn't really know what she needed or wanted from a relationship and was chasing after a love that was completely untethered to reality, you know, pragmatics, um, lifestyle values.

And so in that way, it's this incomplete love, even though emotionally it felt like love.

And I think that and this realization that I've gone through, which has taken me a lot of time, is probably the same realization that these mistresses go through.

She just flashed you this little truth, and that truth was a seed that grew and grew and grew.

Yeah. And I don't want to denigrate the relationship that we had.

And I don't think it says anything about his capacity to love or how he behaved in the relationship.

I think it's just that she spotted the immaturity that we were at at that point in our lives and it was not going to serve either of us well.

May I ask are you are you single? Are you in a relationship now?

I'm in a very happy relationship now.

Nice.

Have you told teacher Wang about it?

No.

Yeah. No. No. No. But I would very confidently learn. Yeah.

But I would very confidently tell her about it. And you know what you do? You'd show her a picture of you two hugging, embracing with you looking so confident.

I do. I don't I don't want to be overconfident. ever the optimist and idealist that I am.

But I I I I I do feel like if I came to her with the relationship that I am in now that she would have a more positive response hopefully.

Do you think her voice will always be in your head?

I hope not.

No.

I mean, well, it's funny because that So, when I say I hope not, that was the past me, the resentful, childish me. just knee-jerk reaction.

Um, but thinking about it, I I I think what she does for her clients is a remarkable thing.

And I think what what stays with me is her ability to help people see their worth.

The mistress, the wife, and and and the husband and and what priorities they have in life.

And obviously with Fay, the mistress, she helps her realize her ultimate priorities that she wants to be a part of a love that's complete, not in the shadows.

What did Teacher Wang help you realize was your priority?

I think much like probably the advice that she slowly imparts to the clients that she works with that you are deserving of a complete love that can withstand the pressures of time and life.

I am so happy for you that you feel like you found that.

Thanks.

I genuinely am. No, no. I'm full stop. I just am. Elizabeth Low, thank you so much for this conversation.

Thank you. This was a lot of fun.

Elizabeth Low's film Mistress Dispeller is in theaters starting today.

The modern love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Alisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poant, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis.

This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg.

It was edited by Davis Land, Lin Levy, and Jen Puyant.

Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemoto and Dan Powell.

Dan also composed our theme music.

This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Mattie Miello and Nick Pitman.

And we had research help from Vivian Wang and CE Jao.

The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, the instructions are always in our show notes.

I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.