加拿大关键矿产战略与克劳福德镍矿
♪
“世界期望加拿大成为关键矿产的可靠供应国。”
英文原文
♪What the world wants is Canada to be the reliable supplier of critical minerals.
这是马克·卡尼总理去年11月宣布第二轮国家建设项目时发表的言论，关键矿产在其中扮演了重要角色。那么它们究竟是什么？渥太华列出了34种矿物和金属清单，称其为“现代技术建立的基础”。从铝（Aluminium）到锌（Zinc），名副其实地涵盖了从A到Z。政府希望加拿大成为生产这些矿产的全球领军者。其目标之一是“增强我们的独立性”。但是，从地下开采更多矿产真的能让加拿大更加独立吗？对拥有这些资源所在领地的原住民又意味着什么？我们来看渥太华关键矿产战略背后的机遇与挑战。我是杰扬·杰加纳森（Jeyan Jeganathan），这里是《The Rundown》。马克·塞尔比（Mark Selby）、肯·霍夫曼（Ken Hoffman），很高兴两位来到《The Rundown》。马克，我先从你开始。我们来看一张显示克劳福德镍矿项目（Crawford Nickel project）位置的地图。它位于安大略省蒂明斯（Timmins）附近，靠近其他运营中的矿山。你曾在因科公司（Inco）工作，这家加拿大矿业公司在20世纪的大部分时间里都是全球领先的镍生产商。显然，它与萨德伯里（Sudbury）有渊源。如何将克劳福德的镍储量与萨德伯里相比较？你们在这里拥有多少镍？
英文原文
>> That was Prime Minister Mark Carney last November, announcing the second round of nation building projects and critical minerals played a big role. So what are they? Well, Ottawa has a list of 34 minerals and metals it calls, quote, the foundation upon which modern technology is built. They range from A to Z, literally from aluminium to zinc. And the government wants Canada to become a global leader in producing them. One of its goals, to, quote, increase our independence. But can digging more minerals out of the ground really make Canada more independent? And what does all this mean for the First Nations whose territories are home to these resources? We look at the opportunities and the challenges behind Ottawa's critical mineral strategy. I'm Jeyan Jeganathan, and this is The Rundown. Mark Selby, Ken Hoffman, great to have you on The Rundown. Mark, I'm going to start with you. We're going to show a map with the location of the Crawford Nickel project. It's near Timmins, Ontario, and close to other operating mines. Now, you once worked for Inco, a Canadian mining company that was the world's leading producer of nickel for much of the 20th century. Obviously, connections to Sudbury. How can you compare Crawford's nickel reserves to Sudbury? How much nickel do you have here?是的。关于我们在蒂明斯能够释放的潜力，非常令人兴奋的是，我们现在拥有9个资源点，地下蕴藏着超过2000万吨、价值接近5000亿美元的镍。因此，现在我们在地下的镍储量实际上比萨德伯里刚起步时还要多。
英文原文
>> Yeah. What's very exciting about what we've been able to unlock in Timmins is we now have nine resources and over 20 million tonnes nearly, you know, half a trillion of, of dollars worth of nickel in the ground. And so right now we actually have more nickel on the ground than existed when Sudbury got started.全球供应链格局与地缘政治
肯，这个国家的矿业在向加拿大政府和企业建言发展战略的同时，你能否为我们将克劳福德矿床置于全球背景下来看，包括为什么政府称其为战略资产？
英文原文
>> Ken, you know, this country's mining sector, while it advised Canadian government and companies about development strategy, can you put this Crawford deposit in a global context for us, including why the government uses the word strategic asset?嗯，目前世界上正在发生非常重要的事情，包括英伟达（Nvidia）相关的动态、这如何影响到显然把这事搞得一团糟的商务部，以及这将如何影响贸易。现在这一切都可以归结为：请记住，在1月10日，美中之间关于关键矿产开采的协议到期了。在关键矿产方面，中国目前是西方的主心骨。西方的政府，特别是在美国以及欧洲，切实发现他们需要绕开这一点。因此，他们认为确实必须获取本地采购、开采的材料。因此，像这样的矿山绝对至关重要，以便美国和西方某种程度上避免完全依附于中国。
英文原文
>> Well, right now you have very important things going on in the world, including what's going on with Nvidia, how that's impacting the Commerce Department, which apparently really messed this thing up, and how that will impact trade. Now this all comes down to remember, on January 10th, the agreement between the United States and China for the exploitation of critical minerals ends. China is the linchpin right now for the West in terms of critical minerals. The governments in the West, particularly in the United States but also Europe, are really finding that they need to get around this. And so they believe they really have to get locally sourced, mined material. And so mines like this are absolutely critical in order for the, you know, the US and the West to sort of avoid being completely bound to China.项目审批、政府支持与原住民知情同意
好的，我们来谈谈接下来的步骤以及其中的一些挑战。马克，克劳福德是首批被联邦政府指定为重大项目的开发项目之一。我猜你和你的团队对此相当高兴。但这一指定如何帮助推动项目进展？这对你们来说究竟如何起到实质推动作用？
英文原文
>> Well, talk sort of the next steps in some of the challenges there. But Mark Crawford was one of the first developments to be designated a major project by the federal government. I imagine you and your team are quite happy about that. But how did the designation help advance the project? How does this actually move the needle for you guys?是的，重大项目办公室（Major Projects Office）带来的巨大优势，以及我们被转介到省级的“一号计划，一号审批”（1P1P）流程。因此我们在联邦和省两个层面都获得了认可，这非常有帮助。我们在许可流程上已经走得很深入了，并在7月份获得了许可。但重大项目办公室带来的实质帮助主要体现在两个方面。其一，最好的例子就是礼宾式服务。在许可方面，我们仍需从众多部门获取大量补充许可。因此，拥有一个单一对接点——在遇到任何小波折时（在经历这类流程时难免会遇到），拥有一个具备相应权限的单一对接点来持续推动事项，是非常非常有帮助的。另一方面是在融资方面，现在有一整套政府资金支持渠道。同样，拥有这种融资礼宾服务，以便在这些不同的资金渠道之间进行协调推进，也是非常非常有帮助的。
英文原文
>> Yeah, the big plus with the major projects office and as well, you know, we were referred to the provincial 1P1P process. So we've got that recognition at both the federal and the provincial level where it's very helpful. You know, we were already very well down the path on on our permitting process, which we received in July. But the big help is really on two fronts with the MPO. So one, the best example is a concierge service. So on the on the permitting side, you know, there's still a number of supplementary permits that we need to get with a, you know, a large number of departments. And so having that single point of contact that if, you know, any time we run into any, any hiccups and you will, as you go through these kind of processes, you know, having that single point of contact with the right authority to be able to, you know, continue moving things is very, very helpful. On the other side, on the financing side, you know, there's a whole series of government funding envelopes available today. And again, having that financing concierge service, you know, to be able to, to work through and coordinate between those, you know, different funding envelopes again, is, is very, very helpful.该项目在时间表、报告、影响评估或类似事项上是否获得了任何例外优待？
英文原文
>> Did the project receive any exceptions to some of those timelines? Reports, impact assessments or anything like that?没有。就我们的做法而言，基本上是在遵循既有流程。归根结底，在矿区开展工作时，从原住民那里获得自由知情同意是没有捷径可走的。这是自2019年公司成立以来的核心价值观。所以，没有走捷径，只是尽可能快地推进现有流程。
英文原文
>> No. In terms of what we're doing, we're basically, you know, following what's in place. You know, again, at the end of the day, you know, there's no shortcuts in terms of, you know, free informed consent from First Nations in terms of working on the property. That's been a core value for the company since its founding back in 2019. And so, yeah, no, no, no shortcuts. Just working through as quickly as we can with the existing processes.镍的未来需求与市场波动
肯，我想更深入地了解一下镍的需求，即未来的需求。未来几年世界将需要多少镍？我们将看到它被用于哪些类型的产品和应用中？
英文原文
>> Ken, I want a better understanding of the demand, future demand of nickel. How much nickel is the world going to need years ahead? And what types of products and applications will be. Will we see it being used for.镍的主要需求驱动因素以及新的需求驱动力一直是电池。有许多化学配方使用镍，也有较新的配方使用镍，例如富锂锰基（LMR），这是通用汽车将用于车辆的新型锰镍产品，他们希望这种产品能让续航里程接近1000公里。因此，最长续航里程的车辆以及需要高功率密度的应用都使用镍。这将需要大量的原材料。因此，世界一直在面临镍短缺的局面。因此像这样的项目，尤其是对那些看好机器人、无人机以及续航达1000公里的汽车的人来说，其中大部分都相当依赖镍。因此我们看到了巨大的长期预测需求。
英文原文
>> Well, the big demand driver and new demand driver for. For nickel has been batteries. There are a number of chemistries that use nickel, and there are newer chemistries that use nickel like LMR, which is the new manganese nickel product that General Motors will be using on cars that they hope can get them close to 1000 kilometre range. So the longest range vehicles, the applications that need a lot of power density all use nickel. And this is a tremendous amount of material that will be needed. And so the world has been looking at a shortage of nickel. And so projects like this, particularly for, you know, all the people who believe in robots and drones and cars that can go 1000 km. Most of those are pretty dependent on nickel. And so we see a huge demand. Long term forecast.马克，你知道这一点。矿业是一个周期性行业。例如，魁北克的力拓（Rio Tinto）最近因为需求疲软和价格下跌，解雇了一家锂加工厂的员工。我很好奇，克劳福德如何准备应对低需求、高需求，以及镍价下跌或上涨的时期？你们如何为这种情况做准备？
英文原文
>> Mark, you know this. Well, mining is a cyclical industry. Recently, for example, Rio Tinto in Quebec recently laid off employees at a lithium processing plant because of weaker demand and prices. I'm curious, how is Crawford prepared to meet periods of of low demand, high demand. But and nickel prices dropping, increasing. How do you prepare for something like that?是的。其中有两个关键要素：一是市场灵活性，二是处于成本曲线的正确位置。正如肯所说，电池是镍的一个全新的主要用途。但我们在不锈钢和合金中仍有历史用途，这些用途涵盖了广泛的应用领域，以及航空航天和国防等领域，不幸的是，这些领域如今再次变得越来越重要。因此，我们生产的产品能够被广泛的镍消费领域所利用。所以我们并不受制于任何单一特定行业的表现。在成本曲线方面，由于除了生产镍之外，我们还将生产大量的铁；而且在铬方面，我们将成为北美唯一的铬生产商。我们将从中获得显著的成本优势，使我们处于成本曲线的低端，从而使我们能够在整个周期内持续产生现金流。
英文原文
>> Yeah. So the two key pieces there are one in terms of market flexibility and two being in the right place on the cost curve. You know, as Ken said, you know, batteries are a whole big new use for nickel. But we still have our historical uses in stainless and alloys, which are used around a whole range of applications and things like aerospace and defence, which unfortunately, you know, are now back, you know, increasingly important again. So the product will produce will be able to be utilized by a wide range of nickel sectors. So we're not tied to the performance of any one specific industry. And then in terms of the cost curve, because in addition to producing nickel, we'll also produce significant amounts of iron. And chromium will be North America's only chromium producer. You know, we'll we'll have a significant cost benefit from that, which will place us on the low end of the cost curve, which will allow us to generate cash, you know, across the entire cycle.下游加工与本土价值链延伸
肯，除了拥有矿山是一方面，我也了解到这个矿山将自行进行加工。但镍价值链的下一步是什么？加拿大需要做些什么来确保这一环节留在本土？
英文原文
>> Ken, having a minus one thing. I also understand there's going to be this mine will have will be doing its own processing as well. But what's the next step in the nickel value chain and what does Canada need to do to make sure it happens here?嗯，全球有很多举措试图绕开传统的冶炼设施。那些耗资数十亿美元的综合设施可能需要十年或更长时间来建设。因此你看到在金属加工新方法方面涌现出大量探索。比如，我与一家名为火鸟金属（Firebird Metals）的澳大利亚公司合作。他们实际上采用锰矿石，能够在单一流程中直接添加镍来制造正极材料。这非常具有资本效率。因此全球都在开发各种方法来缩短价值链，直接从矿石走向最终产品。
英文原文
>> Well, there's there's been an awful lot of move in the world to try to get around sort of traditional smelter complexes. These are the multi-billion dollar complexes that can take a decade or more to build. And so you're seeing a huge amount of movement in new ways to process metals. And these are things, you know, I work with a company out of Australia called Firebird Metals. They actually take oral manganese and they can work and make it directly adding nickel along the way to make a cathode all in one process. And so, and it's very capital efficient. So there are ways being developed around the world to sort of shorten the value chain, to go directly from the ore to a final product.马克，对此你怎么看？加拿大需要做些什么来将这一价值链保留在本土？
英文原文
>> Mark, what are your thoughts on that? What does Canada need to do to sort of keep that value chain here?这包括两个部分。其一是初步加工步骤。我们正在利用已有50年历史的成熟技术，并将其应用于我们矿床的独特性质上。因此我们可以在蒂明斯生产镍产品，并且可以将铁铬磁铁矿转化为钢铁产品。我们这种镍矿床的另一个优势是碳储存能力，我们最多可储存150万吨二氧化碳。因此，这些流程产生的任何二氧化碳都可以被封存，从而在该领域打造出低碳甚至潜在的零碳产品。这是国家必须迈出的重要下一步。莱奇部长（Minister Leitch）总是谈到我们陷入了仅仅“开采然后运出”的怪圈。确实如此。一旦你将价值链的某一步运往国外，所有其余的下游价值就都消失了。因此，通过落实下一步，就为下一个阶段创造了机会。我认为这是一个我们作为国家需要更积极把握的机遇：对于镍这类我们拥有多处机遇的矿产——在魁北克、安大略、不列颠哥伦比亚省都有可以推向市场的矿床，加拿大真的可以再次成为第二大镍生产国。但我们需要采取协调一致的行动，例如对于价值链的下一阶段，我们可以去找一家韩国的前驱体公司说：“嘿，不要在韩国扩建工厂了，来加拿大建设下一期工厂吧。”一旦我们开始看到这种良性循环再次运转——我们已经有50或60年没有这样做了。这对加拿大来说是一个巨大的机遇，也是我们在未来10到15年真正需要关注的事情。
英文原文
>> There's two pieces to it. You know, one is in terms of that first step processing. So, you know, we're utilizing actually existing technology that have been used for 50 years and just applying it to the unique nature of our deposit that we have. So we can generate nickel products in Timmins, and we can take our iron chrome magnetite and convert it into a steel product. The other benefit of the type of nickel deposit we have is our ability to store carbon, so we can store up to a million and a half tons of CO2. So any of the CO2 generated from those processes, you know, can can be stored and create a low to potentially zero carbon products in that space. So, so, you know, that's the, the important next step that has to happen in the country. Minister Leitch always talks about we've gotten caught up in just ripping and shipping. Right. And as soon as you ship one step of the value chain outside of the country, all of the all of the rest of that downstream value disappears. So by putting that next step in place, it creates the opportunity for the next stage. And I think this is an opportunity, you know, that we need to pursue more aggressively as a country to say, okay, in minerals like nickel, where we have, you know, multiple opportunities, there's deposits in Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, you know, that can all come to market. And Canada can really be, you know, the number two nickel producer once again. But we need to do is work in a coordinated fashion to say, okay, that next stage in the value chain. So go to a Korean precursor company and say, hey, don't expand your plant in Korea. Come build your next phase of plant in Canada. And once, once we start to see that, you know, sort of good circle, you know, working forward again for that virtuous circle started again, we haven't done this for 50 or 60 years. You know, it's, it's a massive opportunity for Canada and something that we really need to focus on for the next 10 to 15 years.外资引入与本土企业控制权
肯，如你所知，联邦政府正大力推动吸引外国投资。但如果我们回顾一下历史，外国投资者曾收购过一些公司。看矿业领域，比如猎鹰桥（Falconbridge）、诺兰达（Noranda），还有因科（Inco）。克劳福德保留在加拿大人手中是否很重要？对于一家上市公司，你如何做到这一点？
英文原文
>> Ken, as you know, the federal government is really pushing to attract foreign investment. But if we do a bit of a history lesson, foreign investors take over some companies. If we look at the mining sector, you know, we can look at Falconbridge and Noranda, and we can look at Inco. Is it important that Crawford remains in Canadian hands? And how do you do that with a publicly traded company?这并不容易。我认为能做的——你也看到了许多政府对外国所有权说“不”的案例。这是一个全球性行业，存在全球资本流动。政府有一些途径：如果他们担忧的某个主体想要获得主要股权，他们可以直接予以拒绝。但另一方面，我认为你不能封闭国际资本。全球范围内有庞大的资本流动，你希望获得这些资本。因此政府在操作时只需要保持谨慎。
英文原文
>> It's not easy. I mean, I think what you can do, and you have seen a lot of cases where the government has said no to foreign ownership. You know, this is a global industry. There's global capital flows. There are ways to sort of have the government, if someone that they are concerned about wants to take a major stake, they can just say no. But I think on the other hand, you can't close off international capital. There is massive flows around the world. The capital, you want that access to that capital. So the government just needs to be careful to to do so.马克。
英文原文
>> Mark.2005年我在因科担任战略主管时，我们曾试图将因科与猎鹰桥合并，以打造一个能与必和必拓（BHP）和力拓相抗衡的强大的加拿大竞争者。不幸的是，那并没有成功。所以正如肯所说，这确实是一种平衡之举。我们确实需要外国投资来补充资本缺口，以建立起我们所需的采矿和加工体系。但我们确实需要加拿大的龙头企业。当我们失去了里奥阿尔戈姆（Rio Algom）、诺兰达、猎鹰桥和阿尔坎（Alcan）时，这对我们在加拿大交付矿山的能力产生了影响。因此我希望，通过投资、关注以及联邦政府的重大项目办公室，我们能够开始培育出下一代行业领军企业，真正引领未来的加拿大采矿业和采矿项目。
英文原文
>> I was at Inco back in 2005 as head of strategy when we tried to merge Inco and Falconbridge to create a, you know, a great Canadian competitor to the BHP and Rio Tinto's of the world. Unfortunately, that did not come to pass. And so, you know, as Ken said, it's a real balancing act. You know, we do need that foreign investment to supplement the amount of capital that's required to build, build out the mining and processing that we need to have in place. But we do need Canadian champions. You know, when we lost Rio Algom, Noranda, Falconbridge and Alcan, you know, that had an impact in terms of our capacity to deliver mines in Canada. And so, you know, I'm hoping that, you know, through the investment, the focus and the federal government, the Major Projects office, you know, we can start to develop that next generation of champions, you know, who can really lead Canadian mining and Canadian mining projects going forward.与原住民的伙伴关系与商业协议
马克，加拿大镍业公司（Canada Nickel Company）与多个原住民达成了协议。包括与马塔加米（Matagami）、麦克尤恩（MacEwan）和飞邮（Flying Post）原住民达成了就业协议。接下来情况更有意思了，塔夸/TMU原住民（Taykwa Tagamou Nation / TTN）投资2000万美元以获取该项目的潜在股权。建立这些关系和谈判花了多长时间？你们是如何开始的？
英文原文
>> Mark, Canada Nickel Company has agreements with a number of First Nations. Matagami, MacEwan and Flying Post, First Nations for employment. And then it gets a bit interesting. You have Tarkwa. TMU nation is investing $20 million for a potential equity stake in the project. How long did these relationship building negotiations take and how did you start them.是的。对于这些协议而言，重点不在于谈判，而在于从建立关系开始。从公司成立的第一天起，获得公平、知情的同意以在我们希望的地方开展工作，就是公司的核心原则。因此我们开启了对话，非常坦诚地倾听每个社区在如何从项目中获益方面的需求，因为项目显然会对他们的社区产生影响。所以当带着开放的心态去沟通并做好倾听准备时，尤其在蒂明斯这样一个经历过许多采矿开发的地区，原住民非常乐意与你合作。这项股权投资是我们达成的第三笔交易。我们最初与他们达成了输电建设协议以提供输电线路；随后达成了一项运输车队协议，由他们为运输车队提供融资。社区由此获得了就业机会和商业业务，进而拥有了资本权益。就创造价值而言，推进每一个环节都很重要。因此去年TTN表示确实希望投资公司并在董事会获得一个席位时，我们感到非常振奋。
英文原文
>> Yeah. So you know with those agreements it's not about negotiation. It's about starting with relationships. And so you know, from the day we founded the company in terms of fair, informed consent to be able to work where we want to work was a key principle for the company. And so, you know, we started that dialogue, you know, we were very open to, to trying to hear what each community needed in terms of how they wanted to, to, to, to get the benefit from the project. That's obviously going to have an impact on their communities. And so when you, when you approach it, you know, with an open mind and, and be prepared to listen. And in an area like Timmins where there's been a bunch of mining development, you know, we're, we're, you know, the, the, the nations, you know, are very prepared to work with you. And so, you know, the, we signed the, that equity investment was, was a, the third deal that we've done. So we initially had a transmission construction agreement with them in terms of providing the transmission line. We subsequently provided a haul fleet agreement where they're going to finance the haul fleet. Again, communities have jobs. They have businesses, and then they have access to capital rights. And so in terms of generating value, it's important to be able to do each one of those pieces to bring forward. So, you know, we were thrilled last year when TTN said that they would actually like to invest in the company and have a seat at the table on the board of directors.肯、马克，我们先聊到这里。非常感谢你们分享真知灼见并抽出宝贵时间。非常感谢。
英文原文
>> Ken. Mark, we are going to leave it there. I want to thank you so much for your insights and your time on this. Thank you so much.好的，多谢。
英文原文
>> All right thanks a lot.谢谢。祝你有美好的一天。
英文原文
>> Thank you. Have a good day.♪原住民权益、法律与项目推进中的挑战
加拿大表示正在进入资源开发的新时代。但他们规划的大部分内容如果没有原住民的支持就无法实现。正如我们刚才所听到的，在某些情况下他们获得了支持。但其他原住民对支持开发的新法律有着重大关切，涉及加快审批、潜在的环境影响等等。那么，企业是如何与原住民进行谈判的？双方究竟需要什么样的信息来做出知情决策？阿贾伊·温特伯恩（Ajay Winterburn）、迈克尔·福克斯（Michael Fox），很高兴两位来到节目。两位近来如何？
英文原文
>> So Canada says it's entering a new era of resource development. But a lot of what they have planned can't happen without First Nation support. As we just heard, in some cases they've got it. But other nations have major concerns about the new law supporting development. The fast tracking, the potential environmental impact, and more. So how are companies approaching negotiations with First Nations, and what kind of information do both parties actually need to make informed decisions? Ajay Winterburn, Michael Fox, great to have you on the rundown. How are you guys doing?我很好，谢谢。
英文原文
>> I'm doing well. Thank you.太好了。阿贾伊，我先从你开始。你是莫霍克（Mohawk）和阿贝纳基（Abenaki）族人，也是一位帮助原住民社区与企业达成协议的专业律师。面对所有这些加速开发的联邦和省法律，这对于双方达成其中某些协议究竟是有所帮助还是造成了阻碍？
英文原文
>> Excellent. Ajay, I'm going to start with you. You are Mohawk and Abenaki and a lawyer with expertise helping First Nations communities reach deals with companies. With all of these federal and provincial laws that speed up development, does it help or hinder either side making some of these deals?我认为有时建立一个更协调的流程确实会有很大帮助。特别是我的客户和原住民社区经常面临的一个难处，就是在项目发起方构思项目到项目最终实际完成之间，很难全面了解所有不同的项目审批、许可和决策节点。因此在所有这些环节上有更充分的协调是非常有帮助的。当然，挑战之一是为原住民社区预先获取资源，以便他们能够参与进来，并切实将他们的知识、信息和关切带入到讨论中。
英文原文
>> I think sometimes it can be a real help to have a better coordinated process. In particular. One of the things that my clients and indigenous communities often struggle with is getting a full idea of all the different project approvals and permits and decision points that happen between when you're thinking, when a proponent is thinking about a project and when it's actually then being completed. So having more coordination on all of those pieces can be really helpful. One of the challenges, of course, is getting the resources upfront for indigenous communities to be able to engage and actually bring their knowledge, their information, their concerns forward to that discussion.迈克尔，你来自哈德逊湾附近的威诺斯克族（Weenusk First Nation），在原住民与企业之间搭建桥梁方面也拥有丰富经验。谈判应当在何时以及如何展开？我设想这需要在动工之前很久就进行。但针对利益的合理谈判究竟是怎样的？
英文原文
>> Michael, you are with from Winooski Nation near Hudson Bay and also have extensive experience in building bridges between First Nations and companies. When and how should negotiations begin? I'm going to imagine that this needs to happen well before shovels hit the ground. But how does what does a proper negotiations for benefits look like?认为应该在项目的概念阶段，理解该项目会对何处及何人产生影响，以及那些将参与该过程的社区的诉求是什么。目前在加拿大，股权合作已成为新趋势。如果这摆在桌面上，那么越早越好，因为如果这确实是目标，后续需要进行的金融运作会变得极其复杂。
英文原文
>> I think that the conceptual stage of a project and, and, and understanding where and who is impacted by that project and, and what the aspirations are for those communities that are that are going to be part of that process. And so equity is now the new trend across Canada. And so if that's on the table, the earlier the better, because the financial engineering that has to happen gets way more complex. If if that is indeed the, the goal.阿贾伊，在受到寻求开发的企业接洽的原住民客户那里，你通常会听到什么样的问题？有哪些常见疑问？是担忧吗？还是人们找上门来而大家不知道他们想要什么？或者是该如何应对这种情况？都有哪些类型的问题？
英文原文
>> Ajay what kind of questions do you hear from First Nations clients that have been approached by companies seeking development? What are some of the questions? Is it, you know, is it concern? Is it, you know, folks have arrived at our doorstep and we don't know what they're asking for. Is it how do we navigate this? What are some of the array of questions?我想现在我最常从个人和原住民社区那里听到的是：“他们为什么来得这么早？”大家会担忧是不是马上就要动工了，或者事情正在向前推进而我们在协商方面落后了？正如迈克尔所说，通常是项目发起方很早就参与对话，在事情实际推进之前就介入，以尽早建立关系。因此有时需要提醒大家：“不，我们还没到批准阶段，甚至还没到正式咨询阶段，这只是早期的关系建立。”我认为在发起方早早介入时，这是需要明确的重要关系定位。虽然这是好事，但可能会在原住民社区中引发一些担忧，比如“我们是不是已经快要做出项目批准决定了？我们是不是错过时机了？我们该如何表达那仍是很久以后的事？”而我们现在所谈论的更多是建立关系、了解项目、在进入咨询类讨论之前先了解彼此的关切。
英文原文
>> I think most often now I start to hear from from people and from indigenous communities about, you know, why are why are they here so early? Is there a concern that there's going to be shovels in the ground or that things are moving ahead and we're behind in consultation? Right. But, you know, like Michael said, it's usually proponents coming early to the conversations and engaging before things actually are moving ahead. To start that early relationship building. So there can sometimes be a little bit of, you know, reminders of, no, no, we're not at an approval stage yet. We're not even at an official consultation stage yet. This is just early relationship building. I think that's a big sort of relationship setting piece that needs to happen when proponents are coming and engaging earlier, which is a great thing, but it can cause some of these fears amongst indigenous communities of, oh, are we actually like getting near a project approval decision? Have we missed the boat? How do we actually say that's still a ways in the future? And what we're talking about right now is more that relationship building, understanding the project, understanding each other's concerns before you even get into a consultation type discussion.原住民传统知识与合作模式的演变
当我们谈论原住民知识，谈论企业需要去理解的那些格局或规律时，我们究竟在谈论什么？能给我们举些例子吗？
英文原文
>> When we talk about indigenous knowledge, when we talk about sort of patterns that, you know, companies need to sort of understand, what are we talking about? Give us some examples here.比如像输电线路这样的线性工程（许多原住民正参与其中），尽早知道哪些特定地点属于禁区或敏感区域，远比后期才发现要好得多——到后期你可能不得不更改项目设计，特别是如果你已经提交了项目说明并触发了环境影响评估。因此，越早让社区参与进来并协助塑造项目，我认为事情就会进展得越顺利。
英文原文
>> Yeah. So if it's a linear project, like a transmission line, which are many First Nations are getting involved in knowing, knowing where certain sites are is sort of a no go area or sensitive area is better to know up front than at the earlier stage than later. And find out you have to change the project design, especially if you submitted the project description and triggered the environmental impact assessment. So the earlier you can engage communities and help with that shaping of that project, the I think the better things will go.你刚才稍有提及，但与二三十年前相比，如今企业接触原住民的方式发生了什么变化？
英文原文
>> You hinted on this a little bit, but what's changed about the approach companies are making today with First Nations versus 20, 30 years ago?我认为现在更注重关系的建立，并且在早期就开启这些对话，而不是等到编制好项目说明或将其提交给政府审批机构之后。如果是后者，面对的就是形式化的咨询，更像是一种“走过场打勾”的方式。过去发起方的运作模式往往是不及早与原住民社区接触，而是等到项目说明准备好提交甚至已经提交后，再过来说：“好了，我们来这里向你们咨询。基本上就是来告诉你们有关项目的情况以及你们有什么担忧，但可能不会为此做任何调整。”最终，如今的做法已经真正转向为：“我们希望与你们建立关系以打造最佳的项目，真正吸引你们参与进来。”正如迈克尔所说，通过早期的股权安排或类似所有者的模式，让原住民社区真正成为所有者并从项目中获益。
英文原文
>> I think it's it's more focused on relationship building often and actually starting those conversations early as opposed to waiting until a project description has been prepared or a project description has been submitted to a governmental approval authority. And then you're looking at formalized consultation and kind of more of a checkbox approach. So that that used to be a way that proponents would operate is they wouldn't engage early with indigenous communities. They would wait until they had a project description ready to be submitted, maybe even it had been submitted. And then they would come and say, okay, we're here to consult with you. Basically, we're here to kind of tell you about our project here, what concerns you have, but maybe, you know, not do anything about it. At the end of the day, that's really shifted to more of a, we want to build a relationship with you to build the best project possible, to actually bring you in. As Michael said, to an equity arrangement or an urn, like an owner approach early on so that indigenous communities are actually owners and benefiting from the project themselves.资金支持与产业链各环节的参与
我们来谈谈关键矿产基础设施基金（Critical Minerals Infrastructure Fund）。迈克尔，联邦政府将提供约1350万美元，期限大致到2032年，面向原住民社区。请帮我们理解一下，该资助计划的目标是什么？
英文原文
>> Let's talk a little bit about the critical Minerals Infrastructure Fund. Michael, the federal government is offering about $13.5 million. That's until about 2032. Indigenous communities. Help us understand what's the goal of the grant program?这很可能是为了促进对该行业的某种形式的参与。看加拿大相关的上下游机遇，这取决于社区希望在何处参与。有时他们会参与勘探，有时会参与加工设施——这正是加拿大主要缺失的部分。关键矿产与基础金属有些不同。基础金属大多属于大宗商品，你可以直接按市价卖给全球市场；而在涉及某些稀土金属等矿产时，你实际上需要锁定具体的客户。
英文原文
>> It's probably to help facilitate some form of participation in the sector. There. When you look at the upstream downstream opportunities associated in Canada, it depends on where the communities want to participate. Sometimes they'll be at the exploration, sometimes at the processing facilities, which is really the main part missing in Canada. And it's probably the main critical minerals are a bit different from from base metals. You know, a lot of times base metals like a commodity, you just sell it to, to the world that the prices that's going at when it comes to some of the rare earth metals and stuff, you actually need a customer.当我们谈到基础金属时，指的是哪些？
英文原文
>> When we talk base metals, what are we talking about?镍、锌、铜。但是对于更专门化的矿产，你需要根据客户所需的产品进行定制。因此，加工在加拿大成为必要环节。目前已有一些举措，无论是锂加工设施还是其他设施，都需要非常精确的规格。所谓工艺流程图的规格指标，必须针对客户、针对他们生产的电池或制造的汽车来定制。所以情况有所不同。这正是原住民社区在关键矿产领域可以参与的高附加值部分。
英文原文
>> Nickel, zinc, copper. But with the the more specialized minerals you need a customer specific to their product that they need. So processing becomes the thing that's required in Canada. And there are some initiatives of people, whether that's lithium processing facilities or others that that really are specified. The specification, what they call the flow sheet, the specification really has to be targeted to the customer, the battery that they're making or the car that they're, they're trying to manufacture. So it's a bit different. So that's the value add portion that communities can get involved in around critical minerals.原住民社区表现出参与的强烈兴趣了吗？
英文原文
>> Have we seen much interest from First Nations communities in getting involved?加拿大有几个提议。我认为在安大略省北部的桑德贝（Thunder Bay），有几个围绕中游加工设施提出的构想。原住民已经表达了参与的兴趣。
英文原文
>> There's a few there's a few propositions in Canada. One of them in northern Ontario, I believe, in Thunder Bay, where there are a few concepts that are being proposed in that area around around the the midstream processing facilities. And there's been expressed interest in by First Nations to get involved.阿贾伊，如果一个原住民部族自身缺乏资金，他们有途径投资潜在的矿业项目吗？你刚才谈到了协调层面的资源，但如果一个部族想参与采矿项目，在手头没有足够现成资本的情况下，是否有资源参与？是否有用于资本投资的贷款项目？
英文原文
>> Ajay are there ways nations can invest in in, say, a potential mine project if they don't? Have you talked about resources on sort of a coordination side of it, but if a if a nation wants to get involved in a mining project, do they have the resources to get in if they don't have necessarily the capital right away? Are there any loan programs available for capital investment?有一些。我认为加拿大以及各省需要加大投资的领域，是做好原住民社区（包括第一民族、梅蒂斯人和因纽特人社区）的能力储备，使其真正能够利用这些经济机遇和伙伴关系模式。确保他们拥有参与谈判所需资本是一种选择。我认为探索不需要在初期投入大量资本的替代模式也很重要，例如通过权益积累获得所有权模式、股权、收益分成等，这些也可以是其他选择。
英文原文
>> There are a few, and I think it's an area that, you know, Canada as well as the province, needs to increasingly invest in, is preparing indigenous communities. First Nations, Metis, Inuit communities to actually be able to take advantage of those economic opportunities. And those partnership models. How you do that in a way that ensures that they have the capital to come to the table, is one option. I think looking at alternative models as well, that maybe don't require as much input of capital at the beginning. Earn like an owner models, equity, benefit arrangements, things like that could be other options as well.风险特征与协议成功要素
好的。我们来看看成功协议所包含的要素。在审视部族与企业之间的协议时，你认为促使协议对双方都行之有效的成功要素有哪些？
英文原文
>> All right. Let's look at in terms of successful agreements, some of the elements that are involved in it. What are what are some when you look at an agreement between a nation and a company, what would you say are successful agreements that this works for both parties?我认为这取决于项目的性质。比如安大略省的一个水电项目，在原住民融资机制发挥作用时，那是安大略省首个股权贷款担保机制，由长达40年的购电协议提供支持。基础设施项目也是如此。它的风险特征不同，因此投资者、金融机构和银行会认为它更稳妥，因为其风险特征不同，有着受监管的投资回报率，机构投资者会关注这些交易。采矿业则有些不同。采矿具有不同的风险特征，特别是在早期勘探阶段、进阶勘探阶段，以及随后的矿山建设和运营阶段，因为你的收益挂钩于全球大宗商品价格。此外，在进行进一步勘探之前，你无法确切知道矿床的具体情况。所以其本质上的风险特征截然不同。这就是为什么你会看到更多原住民参与加拿大的基础设施项目，而非直接参与采矿。
英文原文
>> I think it goes back to the nature of the project, like a hydro project in Ontario, when the Aboriginal financing was was at play, it was the first equity loan guarantee and mechanism that was that happened in Ontario. And so that's backed by a 40 year power purchase agreement. And so same thing with infrastructure. You know, it's a different risk profile. And so investors and finances and banks will look at it as a safer bet because of the because of the nature of the risk profile. There's a regulated rate of return. And institutional investors will look at those deals. Mining's a bit different. Mining has a different risk profile, especially at the front end of the early exploration. Advanced exploration, and then later at the construction and operations of a mine, because you're kind of tied to the commodity prices around the world. And plus, you don't know exactly what the deposit is until you do further exploration in there. So the risk profile is different in that nature. That's why you'll see more around the infrastructure plays in Canada, where First Nations are getting involved versus the mining.好的。阿贾伊，企业与原住民之间成功协议的常见要素有哪些？作为法律人士，你关注的是什么？
英文原文
>> Okay. Ajay, what are some common elements of a successful agreement between companies and nations? What are you looking for as a learner?如果可以的话，对我来说考虑我不希望看到什么往往更容易。我不希望看到过于复杂的内容。在很多早期的协议安排中，我们看到设定了就业目标、分包目标、社区收益目标等。但随后的条款中并没有明确：如果我们无法实现该目标，替代方案是什么？如果由于某种原因导致部分合同要求和条款无法落实，社区如何继续受益？在其他条件方面也是如此。我们如何确保与企业共享的传统知识切实得到保护？我们如何确保保持长期的合作关系，而不仅仅是一项单次决策？当然，你可能会从项目中持续获得经济收益，但闭矿计划呢？修复计划呢？原住民社区如何继续对影响项目、并以切实方式持续影响土地与资源的下游决策点拥有发言权？因此，将这些机制纳入其中很重要，而不是仅仅提供一笔收入来源就了事。
英文原文
>> It's sometimes easier for me to think about what I'm not looking for, if that's okay. I'm not looking for something that's overly complex. I think in a lot of earlier arrangements, we saw things that had, you know, targets for employment, targets for contracting, targets for benefits coming to the community. But then we wouldn't see those pieces that said, well, if we can't make that target, what's our alternative option? Right? How does the community continue to benefit if some of those contractual requirements and pieces, just for whatever reason, fall through? Right. I think the same thing around other conditions. How do we ensure that traditional knowledge that may be shared with the company is actually protected? How do we ensure that there's that ongoing relationship so that it's not just there is a decision? And sure, you may financially benefit from the project on an ongoing basis, but what about closure plans? What about remediation plans? How does an indigenous community continue to have input on those downstream decision points that are affecting the project and affecting continuing to affect the lands and resources in really meaningful ways? So building those in, I think, is important and not seeing things that basically just say, here's your income stream and and you're done.多群体参与与监管评估流程
我想同样需要注意的是，这可能不仅是一个部族与一家企业之间的协议。通常在这些项目中，我们要面对不止一个部族。
英文原文
>> I think it's also important to note that, yes, it's perhaps an agreement with One Nation and a company. Usually in these projects, we're dealing with more than one nation.我想说几乎总是如此。我在近期的做法中看到的陷阱之一，是企业只与一个第一民族打交道，或者忽视了在同一地区拥有共存的《宪法》第35条原住民权利的梅蒂斯人社区。因此，确保与可能受到项目或决策潜在影响的全部原住民社区进行沟通并及早建立这些关系至关重要。因为正如我作为这个国家的一名第一民族人所说，和解除非涵盖所有原住民——第一民族、因纽特人和梅蒂斯人，否则是无法实现的。
英文原文
>> I would say almost always. Yes. And one of the pitfalls that I've seen in recent approaches is actually companies only dealing with with one first Nation or ignoring Metis communities that may have coexisting section 35 Aboriginal rights in those same areas. So being sure that you're engaging with the full scope of indigenous communities that may potentially be impacted by a project or a decision engaging in those relationships early, I think is so key because like I will say, as a First Nations person in this country, reconciliation is not going to happen unless it involves all indigenous peoples, First Nations, Inuit and Metis.关于建议方面。随着企业开始在对话初期接触原住民，他们是否必须调和并接受某些原住民无论在何种情况下都对开发不感兴趣这一事实？还是说这是一个可以继续探讨的话题？对于一些企业以及希望捍卫自身主权的原住民，这里的建议是什么？
英文原文
>> In terms of advice. As companies, you know, start to approach First Nations in the early parts of conversation, will they have to sort of reconcile the fact that and accept the fact that some First Nations are just not interested in development under any circumstance? Or is that a is that a conversation that can continue to evolve? What's what's the advice here for, for some companies and for First Nations who want to protect that sovereignty?是的，这是一个复杂的问题。监管流程的设立是为了让权利持有者和利益相关者都能对任何特定提议表达意见，而且相当严格。我之所以有这个体会，是因为我曾负责过由原住民倡导的项目的影响评估和环境影响评估。你很快就会发现，协调政府审查团队需要付出巨大的努力。通过公众意见和原住民协商意见的输入，你可以在这个过程中具体查明人们提出的问题、关切或影响究竟是什么。在梳理出所有这些问题、关切和影响的清单后，制定相关的缓解措施，并将这些措施带回社区进行讨论，解释这些措施的内容以及将如何解决这些关切、问题和影响。然后将最终报告提交给监管机构，由他们进行审查。在听取并审阅了原住民的关切后，监管机构通常会为这些项目增加更多条款和条件。所以这是一个相当严格的流程，我认为也是一个公平的流程。而对于那些仍然存在分歧的情况，还可以诉诸法院。
英文原文
>> Yeah, that's a complex question. So I think the regulatory process is set up to allow participation in both rights holders and stakeholders to express their views on any given proposition. And and, and it's pretty rigorous. I find it because I've been I've led indigenous sorry, impact assessments, environmental impact assessments for indigenous led projects. And you find out pretty quickly how much work it is to get the government review team. The public input in indigenous consultation inputs, and and you find out through that process, what specifically is, is the issue the concern or the impact that people are raising? You know, and in that, you get a list of all of those issues, concerns and impacts, and then you create mitigation measures associated with that, and you bring that back to the community to discuss those mitigation measures, to explain what they are and how you'll address those concerns, issues and impacts. Then you submit the final report to the to the regulators, and they go through it. And largely they add more terms and conditions to these projects. After listening to and reading about the indigenous concerns. So it's a pretty rigorous process. I think it's a fair one. And, and those that, you know, still disagree, there's still the courts.好的。遗憾的是我们今天的时间就到了。阿贾伊、迈克尔，非常感谢两位的宝贵时间，非常感激你们就此分享的见解。
英文原文
>> Well, there we go. We unfortunately going to have to leave it there. Ajay, Michael, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate your insights on this one.谢谢。
英文原文
>> Thank you.很好。谢谢。
英文原文
>> Very good. Thank you.♪结语与观众互动
你认为这些国家建设项目是正确的方向吗？加拿大的经济独立对你来说有多重要？请告诉我们。发送电子邮件至 Rundown@TVO.org 或在我们的 YouTube 页面留言。下周见。