[Host]: As many worry about the future of book publishing, there's one genre that's heating up. For decades, romance novels were dismissed as guilty pleasures, but not anymore. Today, romance is one of publishing's biggest successes, and Canada is leading the way thanks to smash hits like Rachel Reid's Game Changer series, which you probably already know inspired a little show called Heated Rivalry. But this isn't just about Heated Rivalry. Bestseller lists are full of romance books set in Canada and written by Canadians. So why is romance having a moment, and what is it about Canada that's fueling the genre's rise? Welcome to The Rundown.

[Host]: Amy Lee set her first book in Boston, her publisher was American, and she assumed readers probably wouldn't be interested in a Canadian setting. Since then, her writing and the industry have changed. Amy Lee is an author of romantic comedies, including The Bodyguard Affair, and she joins me on the line. How are you doing, Amy?

[Amy Lee]: Hi. I'm great. How are you doing?

[Host]: I am doing well. I need to understand what is behind the obsession with Canadian love stories right now.

[Amy Lee]: Yes. I think that Canada based romances have been really resonating with readers because they feel so grounded and familiar for people. A lot of Canadian romances tend to take place in very ordinary settings, like small towns or in hockey arenas, or on snowy streets and summer cottage country. But I think that the writing that the authors are doing is what's making them feel really special and cinematic. And I think the other half of this is that Canadians are obviously known for being really nice. And sometimes the moments that really stick with readers are very Canadian type gestures, you know, like somebody shoveling your driveway and brushing off the snow in the morning, or your friend driving for hours to see you, or somebody remembering your Tim Hortons order. And I think these are a lot of the things that are being reflected in the books that are really standing out to readers.

[Host]: Your latest novel, The Bodyguard Affair, is set in Ottawa, and I'm hoping you can help me understand, because Ottawa is home base for you now, what is it about Ottawa that inspires you in your first chapter? You even write of your book. You write. "Ottawa is a reserved button up city and I like." So when I think when you write that, I'm thinking, okay, well, how does this play into a romance novel? So what inspires you?

[Amy Lee]: Yeah, I think Ottawa is really underrated and it's so beautiful. I mean, the winters are very long. I'll give it that very cold. But in the summertime, in the spring and the fall, it's absolutely gorgeous. And I think one of the things, one of the reasons I really wanted to write about a story in Ottawa is because I wanted to write this sort of political romance or politically set romance on the Hill. And I had been working within the government for quite some time, and I just thought that it would be a really juicy place to put my characters, especially for my main character, who is kind of a secret romance author, but also works in this very serious world.

[Host]: Well, I want to dig into that a little bit more, if possible. What is it about public life that maybe, perhaps people don't know in terms of public service, rather that people don't know? That lends itself to the story that you wrote?

[Amy Lee]: Well, in the case of this book, the main character is the personal assistant to the Prime Minister's wife. And so because of that, she's obviously, you know, very buttoned down. She's sort of public facing in a sense, or works for a very public facing person. And she has to be on her game all the time and very serious. And I think in even though romance is very mainstream for her, she felt like coming out and saying that she was writing romance and enjoys romance just didn't really fit into that world.

[Host]: Did you ever think about did you ever think twice about writing for a Canadian audience, you know, particularly with your background, but you could have situated this story, you know, in Washington, D.C. perhaps not Prime Minister, but with a president, you could have you could have changed the narrative there. But did you ever think twice about doing that?

[Amy Lee]: Yeah, in the very beginning of my writing career, I actually hadn't read a lot of books that were set in Canada. And I thought that because the publishing industry is so US based, that it would just be something that they would want. And so I actually set my first two books in Boston, and the reason I chose Boston is because I thought that it was the most Canadian that you could get as an urban centre. But then once my first book came out, I realized that there were actually a lot of books that, that were starting to be set in Canada and that it was really accepted and readers really gravitated toward it. And so from then on, I've been setting most of my books in Canada.

[Host]: Was there a learning curve for publishers in terms of what they knew about Canada?

[Amy Lee]: I'm sure there probably was. Even like when we copy edit the books, they actually always flag watch for Canadianisms because the, the language and the, the spelling is different, right? For some of our words and everything is supposed to be us spelling. And so they always watch for that or even brands or stores that I will write in that are Canadian that they actually don't have in the United States. They, they will make sure that they change. But I always try to add in little nods and things for Canadians, like little details or phrases or, you know, poutine references and things like that.

[Host]: Well, I imagine one thing that they're not marking is any reference to hockey, because I think at this point, with the success of a lot of romance novels, and we're talking about Heated Rivalry as well as the spin off here. But you have one. Your newest release, The Rivalry Reset, comes out in early 2027. It follows hockey romance theme that has risen in popularity. As I mentioned, why do readers feel connected to sports romance?

[Amy Lee]: I think there's a lot to that. I think sports in and of itself is so compelling because there's just built in stakes within sports, especially at the very high levels of professional sports. It the stories really feature so much ambition from the characters and pressure, and then there's always the rivalry. And so it really makes for a high stakes atmosphere. And I think also the other facet to that is that with sports, there's a big community usually involved in that. There's teams, there's families, locker room dynamics, and I guess it just makes the reader feel like there's something larger rather than only the central story. And I think for hockey romance, you know, it's so tied to our identity as Canadians. And so I think that people really, really gravitate to that and they can feel that.

[Host]: Well, this novel, that one is set in Toronto. And I am curious, how has your sort of life in this province shaped your writing? Because you correct me if I'm wrong, are from Espanola originally.

[Amy Lee]: Yes.

[Host]: That is a very far from Toronto and very far from Ottawa. But help me understand a little bit about how your upbringing shaped the writing.

[Amy Lee]: Yes. So I grew up in Espanola, a town of 5000 people in in northern Ontario. And I think growing up there, it's it's so rural and, you know, kind of isolating in a sense, but also really beautiful. And I think it gave me a really strong sense of community. And there's a lot of emotions and heavy feelings around small towns, you know, especially when you're younger and you're a teenager, there's that feeling like you really need to leave, but then you always want to come back home. And I think that that's really juicy for character arcs. And I think the other amazing thing about Ontario is there's just so many versions of home for people here. You know, we have the big urban sprawl around the GTA. There's the northern area, there's lakes, there's industrial, there's small towns, and I think anyone can kind of find a little bit of what they love within Ontario, because it's just so vast.

[Host]: I think you can romanticize anything Espanola, especially because you've got the Spanish River flowing through it and any any river that's got that name, it has a little appeal to it there. I want to talk about the how the genre has changed a bit. Romance reading was traditionally seen as taboo. You know, cover art would have shirtless men. There would be these romantic embraces. But we've seen and I've noticed the illustrations on these books kind of shift towards more of a graphic illustration. And I'm curious, why do romance novels sort of have this similar style guide?

[Amy Lee]: I think it's kind of with every commercial genre within publishing, they all have a certain look and feel that you can see a lot of mystery books. They all have a very certain colour scheme or kind of font, and I think romance sort of follows that same thing. So in the past, the bodice ripper sort of Fabio covers were there because they signalled passion in the genre and people really gravitated to that. And that was the genre marker. And then I think around, I guess 2015, 2016 is when publishers decided to, to try something where they wanted to, I guess, use the chick lit style illustrated covers. And they believed that they would be a little bit more discreet and a little bit more symbolic, and it would let somebody feel more comfortable, you know, reading a really hot and heavy romance on the subway in public. And I think it did allow for a newer generation of readers who loved romances, but were maybe embarrassed about reading them. And now, I think since Book Talk romance has become very, very mainstream and people aren't necessarily ashamed to be reading them anymore. Illustrated covers are also great because they they allow for diverse characters and different body types, and they signal comedy without having to, you know, find a stock photo that that works.

[Host]: Lastly, Amy, help me understand how does setting your story in Canada offer a sense of belonging? Obviously, you talk about, you know, your roots in Espanola and we talk about these these winters and and, you know, all of the things that make us Canada a Canadian as well as just being nice people, but that that sense of belonging, that community.

[Amy Lee]: Yeah, I think Canadian romance and settings really just let find, let people find themselves in so many different ways, whether that's in the community dynamics are very particular Canadian humour in our weather and in romance, like you said, belonging is really everything. Love stories at their heart are about people feeling like they are seen and like they belong. And I think that a Canadian setting supports that perfectly, because Canadian stories are often so much about our identity and community.

[Host]: Amy, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time and wishing you all the best on this journey.

[Amy Lee]: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

[Host]: Since 2020, sales of English language print romance novels or get this up 105% in Canada. The genre is also one of the fastest growing in the world of e-books, and its readers are so passionate. Canada is now home to a number of bookstores dedicated just to romance. So how did this happen? Kaitlynd Carmichael is a category manager at Indigo Canada. Kiersten Bergeron is co-owner of Toronto's Hopeless Romantic Books. Thank you so much for joining us in the studio. How are you guys doing?

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: Great. Thank you for having us.

[Kiersten Bergeron]: Thank you for having us.

[Host]: Now, romance is having its moment. But also Canadian authors are having their moment. They are sharing that limelight. Help me understand, Kaitlynd, what is it about Canadian storytelling that sort of sets it apart?

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: Well, it's very exciting that Canada is the forefront right now because traditionally in publishing, writers were told to not set their stories in Canada. It wasn't relatable, it wasn't glamorous. It wasn't what people were dreaming of. And so we were told to set our stories in New York or over in the UK, something that the world knew. And now, with the rise of self-publishing, we have the freedom to do what we want. And so when the self-publishing wave happened, everybody decided to write what they knew. And we have amazing Canadian authors here, and they were writing what they knew, and they have opened up the landscape for us. And it's now even created tourism to Canada. It's just absolutely incredible. But if you scale it back, Canada has always been running the romance game. If you know Harlequin, which is one of the major romance brands that was actually founded in Canada, in Winnipeg. And so Canada has always had roots in romance, and we're just now at the forefront of it. And it's happening globally. It's not just happening in Canada. It's happening everywhere and everyone is taking notice.

[Host]: When you mentioned tourism, what do you mean by that?

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: So Carly Fortune wrote a book, I believe it's called this Summer Will Be Different, and it's set in P.E.I. and there are hundreds, if not thousands of people every year who take vacations to P.E.I. because of this book. I'm one of them. I literally forced my family to travel around P.E.I. because of that book, and there setting a movie there for that book, and it's going to create even more tourism. People are going to Alberta, BC because of Elsie Silver, Becca Mack. It's just creating this big moment on the global stage for Canada and it's very exciting.

[Host]: Kiersten, let's add on to that. What is it about Canadian storytelling that sets it apart from from the rest?

[Kiersten Bergeron]: I think it is, again, sort of what we spoke about was that it's different from America. And right now, I think with sort of the crisis in politics happening in the States, I think a lot of people are actually choosing to to read Canadian and to actually, like immerse themselves in the Canadian setting. I think when we think of romance and we think of like the big grand gestures that happen in there, the romanticization that happens in the stories, you do tend to think of maybe those bigger cities, like in the States or things like Paris. But I think there is something to be said about the very niche and very sort of nostalgic feeling of a Canadian summer, of a Canadian winter, the different sort of landscapes and settings that we have here. And I think it's a way to sort of escape into a new realm where we're used to seeing maybe sort of a fictional town set in the US.

[Host]: Now, you mentioned Harlequin, but it did feel like romance was sort of during Covid, where it sort of blossomed again during that time. What give me the give me a sense of what shifted. What changed for the genre during that time?

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: Yeah, it was honestly very crazy to see from a business perspective because it was not always that way. And I think it was because people were at home and they were on TikTok. And TikTok is a vessel of communication. And the way that you have always been able to sell books is word of mouth. And what better platform to sell a book, word of mouth, than through TikTok and these influencers, they got on there and they were just passionate about these books. And the easiest books that you can be happy and passionate about are the romance books.

[Kiersten Bergeron]: They're the ones.

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: They're the ones that bring you joy and you're almost guaranteed to have, have, have, have, have a happily ever after in a romance book. It's not guaranteed, but 90% of the time it is okay. And I think in dark times like that, you need a book that you know is going to have a conclusion. And romance provides that for readers.

[Host]: Help me understand the numbers behind sort of what we're seeing with the genre of romance, like in terms of the shares of, of, of all the genres possible. Where does romance sit? Is this a big money-maker for you?

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: It's a huge money-maker. We've seen it rise almost 400% since Covid. It's been incredible to watch, and I'm so glad that these romance authors are finally getting their flowers and the credit that they deserve, because they're all incredibly talented. Before this all happened, romance was like the 20th most important category to our business, and now it's in the top three.

[Host]: Wow. Okay, with that being said, Kiersten, you have your own dedicated store, but before that you were sort of an a pop up kind of space, correct? Yes. When did you know there was enough of a, of a, of a market here for you to actually because it's a big, big decision to make.

[Kiersten Bergeron]: Yes. Yeah. I would actually challenge it a little bit in saying that I don't think romance is a new trend. I actually think it's, it's a very big community that I think we're just only seeing the visibility of. Now, I do think, of course, we are seeing like the numbers do speak. We do see that there is a rise in it currently, but it's not necessarily a new trend. It's there's always been a very big community, and it has always been like the number one best selling genre for decades. So I think now with sort of more visibility of it, like things people are using social media more are sort of becoming more open with speaking about it and actually looking like actively looking for community within a romance space. It has started to sort of become just more visible and more people joining the space openly about it. So for us, I think when we first started, I owned the bookstore with my sister. When we first started, it was a very much of a leap of faith for us, and we sort of always set milestones for ourselves to say like, after six months of opening in our pop up space, we're going to sort of see what the market's like, see, re-evaluate. We know what we love and that, you know, we can with our, you know, our community sort of hopefully bridging that gap in Toronto. But we always sort of said to ourselves at each milestone, like, we'll reassess to see if it's still a viable option for us. And we're very lucky to be able to say that at each of those milestones, when we revisit, it has always sort of, you know, been good enough that we can continue going.

[Host]: Speaking of milestones, how many years have you guys been open now?

[Kiersten Bergeron]: We'll be almost two years in in September.

[Host]: How do you go about choosing titles that you want to display in your book?

[Kiersten Bergeron]: For us, it's a bit of a mismatch of many things. So of course, things that are trending on social media. So that could be things like very popular authors or niche authors that are debuting in that sort of getting around by word of mouth. It's things that our community members say. So oftentimes when people come into our store, they'll sort of tell us the things that they're reading, what they like, things that we should look out for or stock. Maybe authors that aren't on our radar, particularly like indie authors. And of course, also having to balance that with the general big sellers that we know and love. So it's, it's very much just it's a very fast paced environment to kind of keep up with the trends that are happening. But it's for us, it's a very much a mix of trying to keep it diverse, make sure that we have things where any romance reader can see themselves on our shelves, but still meeting the big sort of the big hitters and bestsellers.

[Host]: Well, let's talk about the speed a little bit, Kaitlynd, because as you mentioned, we're talking about tick tock. We're talking about Instagram. For people who aren't familiar book talk. This is a space where people are giving reviews and helping people, you know, decide on what their next read is. But from a business side, like I'm understanding that you guys are tuned in to this, like on a weekly basis, help me understand how this sort of decides what goes on your shelves and what's on display.

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: Yeah. So if you walk into an Indigo and you see tables, all of that is curated by a human. It's US category managers. And we have a book talk table. And that is a man made list by us. And it's because we're having conversations, we're keeping up with the news, we're watching TikToks, and we try to keep ourselves as tuned in to the cultural zeitgeist as possible. And some some days will be caught by surprise. And we'll, we'll come in and we'll look at our sales and there'll be a book. And it wasn't there yesterday, but all of a sudden the sales have spiked. And we have to do a kind of investigative journalism to be like, why did that spike? And it is very fast paced. I can't tell you how many times I've been on a Saturday working because something is happening, and I'm just so excited and I want to chase this. When Heated Rivalry happened, it was Christmas break and I was making a list so that we could get as many books into our stores, so that every single reader could continue loving what they found in Heated Rivalry.

[Host]: I was waiting for one of you to mention Heated Rivalry. So now I can ask the question here. But Kiersten, how has the streaming of Canadian stories, not only Heated Rivalry we have off campus as well influence buying patterns.

[Kiersten Bergeron]: For sure. So I think when you see sort of on a large scale like that, where it's being introduced to even a broader audience, it does bring in people who are looking for those books that the TV shows are based on, but also once they finish reading those, they want.

[Host]: To continue. Yeah, I can imagine.

[Kiersten Bergeron]: Yes. So it's sort of exactly what Kaitlynd said, like you have to get on top of the trends so that when those people do come back to find their next big read, you have something available for them, more for them to explore and get into that, that world. So it's definitely something that we see. It brings in more diverse people as well. I find people who might not think would come into a romance bookstore.

[Host]: I imagine a proud moment for for you in Indigo. Is that for Heated Rivalry? You guys were kind of on it from the beginning. Tell me a little bit about that.

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: Yeah. So I had lunch with Rachel Reid last summer, and she told me that they were making Heated Rivalry, and I am the biggest supporter of Canadian stories, and I knew that it was going to be on a Canadian platform, crave and I, I wanted to make a big moment for that. And so in the lead up to Heated Rivalry coming out, I had ordered a bunch of stock and had it ready placed in the stores for when the show came out. And overnight we sold out because no other major retailer had what we had. And so they were unprepared. And we ended up having to go into some of the craziest moments of our lives trying to get reprints with our publishers. And I'm sure you went through that too. It was absolutely insane. The scale of new readers showing up to the stores, I think Heated Rivalry really created a point to bring people back to their roots of loving reading, and since then we've seen that with off campus, where every single time one of these big shows comes out, we're seeing the numbers grow and grow and grow. And it's because people are coming back to reading.

[Host]: Is there since we're on the on the conversation of trends and you're having these conversations with authors, is there, can you give us a sneak peek? Is there something that you're like, you know what, this might be the next thing.

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: I'm really excited for the love Hypothesis this coming September by Allie Hazelwood. I think that book to screen has really great opportunity, but especially in romance, they are really driving the book world, and I think that one is going to be a very big hit this coming fall.

[Host]: Kiersten, is there anything that you got your eyes on that you see?

[Kiersten Bergeron]: Silver of course. I believe two of her series are actually have been greenlit for adaptation. So I'm very excited to see that, especially because it's, again, it's something that is very niche to, to Canada. Very interesting to see sort of a Canadian cowboy romance versus a southern cowboy romance.

[Host]: As you mentioned, as you put your foot on it, you're like, romance fans have been here from the beginning. I do have to ask, you know, romance reading was really done kind of in your your privacy of your own home, maybe under a blanket, you know, cozy kind of moment. How did romance foster a sense of community? Because you have this physical space as well. It's not just a place for people to buy books as well. How did that community come about and what are you seeing?

[Kiersten Bergeron]: Yeah, I think post Covid, people were definitely looking for more community, especially, you know, after the lockdowns. I think a lot of people struggled with, you know, a lack of socializing and building community. And so I think particularly, especially for women and queer people looking for a space where they could really unapologetically be themselves around romance. So we're not only seeing sort of, you know, original romance readers coming in and looking for community, but also new people who are looking for like minded people looking for a safe space to make friends. And I think romance, because it's something that is so joyful, it sort of naturally does bring in people who are also looking for more of a joyful, friendly space.

[Host]: Kaitlynd. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about sort of how romance has fostered this community here.

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: It's been absolutely incredible to watch. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to an event, and I see people exchanging friendship bracelets. They're singing along with strangers to the music that's playing in the background. It is absolutely a safe space, and that's why romance is as big as it is. I think when Covid happened and we all got on book talk and started talking about it, the shame of being a romance reader was was was pulled back. There was a lot of stigma for a long time. People would hide their romance books behind something else. They wouldn't openly admit what they were reading. And I think a lot of that changed, probably like almost 15 years ago when like 50 Shades of Grey came on the scene. I was working in the stores at that time, and it was absolutely a cultural shift, and we made some strides there. But it really, really happened when we were talking about it publicly. And now it's it's cool to be a romance reader. Like people are openly yelling it from the rooftops and I don't see shame in it. I think that it's a beautiful connector of people. And I think romance readers are some of the smartest people I've ever met, and I'm just so excited that they're reading and that they're making friendships.

[Host]: All right, well, we are going to have to leave it there. I'm going to ask you for some recommendations off camera after this, but I want to thank you so much, Kaitlynd, Kiersten, for your time.

[Kaitlynd Carmichael]: Appreciate it. Thank you for having us.

[Host]: I'm Jeyan. This is our last show of the season. Can you believe it? I want to thank you so much for tuning in and supporting "The Rundown". Starting a new show is a big challenge, and you have been with us every step of the way. Thank you so much for your emails, comments and feedback. We will be back in September. Until then, I hope you have a great Summer and we will see you in the Fall.