街头探访与危机背景
安娜: 你好。你好。你好。我的名字是安娜，我是《纽约时报》的记者。我们正在和人们聊聊补充营养协助计划（SNAP），以及目前在亚利桑那州的真实状况。我能在阴凉处问你几个问题吗？
Original English
Anna: Hi there. Hi. Hi. My name is Anna. I'm with the New York Times. We're talking to people about SNAP and what it's like in Arizona right now. Can I ask you a couple questions in the shade?
亚利桑那居民: 好的。
Original English
Arizona Resident: Yeah.
安娜: 好的，今天外面真的很热。
Original English
Anna: Okay. It's hot out today.
杰森·德帕尔: 我是杰森·德帕尔。我是《纽约时报》的记者，主要报道贫困问题。我和我的同事奥利维亚·纳特以及安娜·福里一起在这里。我们目前站在亚利桑那州凤凰城的一家粮食券（SNAP）办公室外面。我刚刚看了一下办公室里面的情况。里面的人有的直接坐在地板上，有的坐着轮椅，有的撑着拐杖。每个人的脸上都写满了疲惫，那是经历漫长等待却依然看不到尽头的神情。
Original English
Jason Deparl: I'm Jason Deparl. I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I cover poverty issues and I'm here with my colleagues Olivia Nat and Anna Foley. We're outside a food stamp or SNAP office in Phoenix, Arizona. I just took a look inside the office. There are people sitting on the floors. There are people in wheelchairs. There are people on crutches. There are people wearing worn out looks of long weights that aren't yet over.
安娜: 你觉得你这个月和今年来过这家办公室多少次了？
Original English
Anna: How many times do you think you've been to this office?
亚利桑那居民: 天哪，就这一个月和今年来说。
Original English
Arizona Resident: Oh my goodness. In this month and this year.
亚利桑那居民: 这大概将是我的第五次了。
Original English
Arizona Resident: This is going to be like my fifth time.
安娜: 这是你第五次尝试申请粮食券？
Original English
Anna: Your fifth time trying to get snapped.
亚利桑那居民: 嗯。来这些地方本身就像是一份全职工作一样。
Original English
Arizona Resident: Mhm. Coming to these places is just like work itself.
全美社会安全网的剧变
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 欢迎收听《每日新闻》，我是纳塔莉·基特罗夫。美国正在经历近期历史上对其社会安全网最大规模的变革之一，大批民众正在脱离政府的食品补助计划。而这种变化在亚利桑那州表现得尤为剧烈。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroof. This is the daily. The United States is undergoing one of the biggest changes to its social safety net in recent history with huge numbers of people dropping out of the government's food assistance program. Nowhere has it been more dramatic than in Arizona.
亚利桑那居民: 出于某种原因，我的粮食券申请总是被弄丢，你知道的，就是那种所谓的“弄丢”。
Original English
Arizona Resident: For some reason or another, my food stamps application keeps getting lost, you know, quote unquote lost.
亚利桑那居民: 我目前没有任何收入，没有食物。如果这样下去，我可能在几个月内就会无家可归。
Original English
Arizona Resident: I I don't have any income. Uh don't no food. Probably homeless in a couple months.
安娜: 你现在一天吃几顿饭？
Original English
Anna: How many meals are you eating a day right now?
亚利桑那居民: 一顿。就一顿。
Original English
Arizona Resident: One. One.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 今天，我的同事杰森·德帕尔将为我们解释，为什么那里会有如此多的人突然失去了获取这一关键福利的渠道，以及这一切对美国其他地区可能产生的重要影响。今天是8月5日，星期三。杰森，我们今天想和你聊聊粮食券计划（即SNAP）所面临的这些剧烈变化。大约一年前，当特朗普总统那项宏大而美丽的法案通过时，我们的理解是，共和党人计划通过削减政府的福利计划来为该法案买单。你一直追踪报道这个故事，并一路跟到了亚利桑那州。那么，请告诉我们，你为什么要专门去亚利桑那州呢？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Today, my colleague Jason Deparl explains why so many people there are suddenly losing access to this key benefit and the implications all this could have for the rest of the country. It's Wednesday, August 5th. Jason, we want to talk to you today about these drastic changes that have been made to the food stamp program known as SNAP. When Trump's big, beautiful bill passed about a year ago, we understood that Republicans were planning to pay for it by making cuts to the government's welfare programs. You have been following that story all the way to Arizona. So, just walk me through why you went there. Arizona is the place in the country that's had the largest reduction in food stamps since the passage of the big beautiful bill. The roles there have fallen in half.
杰森·德帕尔: 亚利桑那州是自该法案通过以来，全美粮食券申领人数减少幅度最大的地区。那里的受助人数已经减少了一半。有多达 450,000 人在那里失去了营养援助。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Arizona is the place in the country that's had the largest reduction in food stamps since the passage of the big beautiful bill. The roles there have fallen in half. 450,000 people have lost nutrition aid there.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 这确实是一个庞大得令人震惊的数字。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: That's just a huge number.
杰森·德帕尔: 是的，这其中还包括了超过 100,000 名儿童。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Yes, it includes more than 100,000 children as well.
新法案的底层逻辑与财政惩罚
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 为什么会这样？为什么下降幅度会如此之大？法律对 SNAP 计划施加了剧烈的变革，但大部分变革都被推迟到了中期选举之后才开始执行。而亚利桑那州是行动最激进、最快落实这些变革的州。杰森，请提醒我们，这些变革具体是什么？以及共和党人声称必须实施这些变革的论据是什么？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: And why is that? Why has the drop off been so steep? The law imposed dramatic changes in the SNAP program, but mostly deferred those changes until after the midterm elections. Arizona was the state that moved most aggressively to make changes. And Jason, just remind us what those changes actually were and the argument that Republicans made for why they needed to implement them.
杰森·德帕尔: 共和党人认为 SNAP 是一个臃肿的计划。自 2000 年以来，该计划的规模扩大了一倍以上。大约每八个美国人中就有一个在接受 SNAP 资助，其年开支已经超过了一千亿美元。他们认为必须对此加以限制。他们觉得这会抑制人们的工作积极性，认为向人们提供营养援助会说服一部分人选择不工作，或者不去尽其所能地多工作。他们还担心有人通过欺诈手段来获取资助。不过，这些其实都是长期存在的担忧。去年国会真正推动这些变革的动力，是需要资金来为特朗普总统的减税计划提供融资，而我们必须记住，那次减税的利益大部分流向了富人阶层。他们之所以在这个时间点采取这样的行动，核心原因就是为了给特朗普总统的减税政策筹集资金。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Republicans saw SNAP as a bloated program. It had more than doubled in size since 2000. About one in eight Americans get SNAP and its annual costs had exceeded hundred billion dollars. They thought it needed reigning in. They thought it served as a work disincentive. They thought that offering people nutrition aid persuaded some not to work or not to work as much as they could. They were concerned that some people committed fraud to get on it. But those were all long-standing concerns. What really drove the changes last year in Congress was the need for money to finance President Trump's tax cuts, which I think it's worth remembering largely went to the wealthy. The reason they did what they did when they did it was because they wanted money for President Trump's tax cuts.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 那么他们是如何去缩减这个计划的呢？他们具体做了什么？最引人关注、也可能最容易理解的一点，就是他们扩大了工作要求。更多的人必须去工作，才能符合获取福利的资格。过去，55 岁及以上的人群是免除工作要求的。现在，他们把这个范围扩大到了 65 岁。所以，现在那些处于 50 岁后期和 60 岁初期的人，也必须首次面对为了获得 SNAP 福利而必须满足的工作要求。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: And how do they go about shrinking the program? What do they actually do? The thing that's gotten the most attention, and it's probably the easiest to understand, is that they expanded work requirements. More people have to work in order to qualify for benefits. It used to be the people 55 and older were exempt. Now, they've expanded that up to age 65. So, you've got people in their late 50s and early 60s who for the first time face work requirements in order to get SNAP benefits.
杰森·德帕尔: 没错。但那其实并不是导致亚利桑那州受助人数锐减的主要因素。真正推动这一现象的，是 SNAP 资金拨付方式的改变。从历史上看，联邦政府承担了所有的福利支出。各州只负责运行 SNAP 计划的一部分行政管理成本，所有的食品券资金全部由联邦政府提供。但现在新法律规定，如果一个州犯了太多的行政错误——我们主要指的是细小的行政管理差错——他们将必须承担高达 15% 的福利开支。在某些州，这可能会让他们每年损失超过十亿美元。基本上，如果我理解得没错的话，联邦政府现在的做法是告诉各州：如果你们在发放付款时搞砸了，你们最终将不得不自己承担这个计划的部分成本，而这可能会是一笔极其巨额的资金。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Got it. But that's not really the main factor in what's driving the case load declines in Arizona. The thing that's really driving this is a change in how SNAP is funded. Historically, the federal government had paid all the benefits. States paid part of the administrative costs of running a SNAP program, but all the food stamp money came from the federal government. But now this new law says that if a state makes too many mistakes, and we're mostly talking small administrative errors, they'll have to pay up to 15% of the benefits. And in some states, that could cost more than the billion dollars a year. Basically, what the federal government is doing, if I understand this correctly, is telling the states that if they mess up their payments, they're going to end up shouldering part of the cost of this program, and it could be a lot of money.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 是的。他们基本上在说，如果你不能把所谓的“差错率”降下来，你就会失去获取大笔联邦资金的渠道。这笔资金数额如此巨大，以至于某些州可能根本无法继续维持该计划的运行。我觉得这很值得停下来思考一下。我的意思是，你能想象一个没有食品券计划的州吗？因此，为了避免高达 3 亿美元的罚款并防范可能彻底失去该计划的风险，亚利桑那州的官员对该计划进行了剧烈的调整，受助名单随之瞬间开始下滑。其下滑的速度和幅度，远远超出了亚利桑那州官员此前的预料。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Yes. They're basically saying if you can't keep what's known as your error rate down, you'll lose access to a bunch of federal money. So much money that some states may not be able to keep running the program at all. I I think that's worth stopping to consider for a moment. I mean, can you imagine a state without a food stamp program? So, in order to avoid a $300 million penalty and potentially losing the program altogether, Arizona officials made dramatic changes to the program and the roles instantly began falling. They fell much farther and much faster than Arizona officials imagined.
红线纠缠与官僚主义的泥潭
杰森·德帕尔: 我们在报道中发现，这些受影响的人绝大多数依然完全符合救助资格，但他们仅仅因为被困在极其繁琐的官僚程序红线中，而无法获得应有的援助。
Original English
Jason Deparl: And what we found in our reporting was that these are people who by and large remain eligible for aid but simply can't get it because they're stuck in webs of red tape.
奥利维亚·纳特: 嘿，我刚才看到你一直在打电话。我的名字是奥利维亚，我是《纽约时报》的记者。我正在和人们聊聊他们是否能顺利收到他们的 SNAP 福利。
Original English
Olivia Nat: Hey, I saw you on the phone earlier. My name's Olivia. I'm here with the New York Times. I'm talking to people about whether or not they're receiving their SNAP benefits.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 哦，姑娘，完全没有。我做了所有的尝试，但还是没有任何帮助。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: Oh, girl, no. I did everything. Still no help.
杰森·德帕尔: 其中一位被困在官僚红线中的人，就是我和我的同事奥利维亚·纳特在凤凰城粮食券办公室外面遇到的这位女性。她的名字叫阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯。
Original English
Jason Deparl: One of the people caught in that red tape is a woman my colleague Olivia Nat and I met outside a food stamp office in Phoenix. Her name is Alejandra Casillas.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 我从十二月就开始申请了，对吧？一月份我又申请了一次。他们让我一直等到二月。我不能总是给他们打电话，因为我还有工作，还要照顾孩子们。但是，是的，我至少在早上给他们打了五次电话。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: I've been applying since December, right? I did that in January. They had me waiting until February. I can't be calling them all the time cuz I have a job and kids to take care of. But yeah, I called them at least five times in the morning.
杰森·德帕尔: 她今年 28 岁，是两个孩子的母亲，并且有一份工作。但她的收入根本不够喂饱她的家庭。
Original English
Jason Deparl: She's 28 years old. She's a mother of two and she's working. but she doesn't make enough to feed her family.
奥利维亚·纳特: 她向我们讲述了一个我们在其他地方反复听到的故事版本：收到那些根本不可能按时去履行的通知。
Original English
Olivia Nat: She gave us a version of a story we had heard in other places of notices that were impossible to comply with.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 邮寄日期，你看到这个了吗？2026年3月30日。然而信上却写着，我必须在2026年2月28日之前完成面试。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: mailing date. You see that? March 30, 2026. And it says right here that I have to do the interview by February 28, 2026.
奥利维亚·纳特: 所以，在他们声称的截止日期过去整整一个月后，你才收到这封信纸。
Original English
Olivia Nat: So, a month after they said this is the deadline, that's when you got the piece of paper.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 我当时就想，我该怎么办？我看起来像是能造出一台时光机然后穿越回去的人吗？这简直太荒谬了。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Do I look like I can create a time machine and go back in time? It's like, why
无法接通的面试热线
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 为什么她要拿到福利会这么难？杰森，她有解释过这一点吗？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: why was it so hard for her to get her benefits? Jason, did she explain that?
杰森·德帕尔: 一旦你申请了 SNAP 福利，你必须和一位专门的个案工作人进行面试，而且这必须在提交申请后的两周内完成。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Once you apply for SNAP benefits, you have to have an interview with a special case worker and it has to happen within two weeks of the application.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 但你在那两周内打过去，根本没人接听。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: But you call in those two weeks and nobody answers.
杰森·德帕尔: 没人接听。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Nobody answers.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 明天就是我必须完成面试的最后一天了，如果完不成，他们就会把我的个案也给关闭了。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: and tomorrow is the last day that I had to complete my interview and then they closed the cases, too.
杰森·德帕尔: 她无法通过电话联系上他们来进行面试。所以，她只能离开家，在自己休息日这天大老远来到 SNAP 办公室，结果他们却告诉她：“你不能在这里进行面试。你必须打电话。”
Original English
Jason Deparl: She couldn't get through on the phone to have the interview. So, she left her home, came in to the SNAP office on her day off, and they told her, "You can't do the interview here. You have to call."
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 我甚至现在就可以打这个电话，他们绝对会挂掉。我们要不要试一下？
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: I can even call it right now, too, and they will they will drop it. Could we try?
杰森·德帕尔: 好的。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Yeah.
系统自动语音: 欢迎致电经济安全部家庭援助管理局。如需继续使用英语，请按一。
Original English
Automated Voice: Welcome to the Department of Economic Security, Family Assistance Administration. To continue in English, press one.
杰森·德帕尔: 我们听着她拨通了那个电话。
Original English
Jason Deparl: We listened to her make the call.
系统自动语音: 我们的记录显示您需要完成一次面试。由于目前的通话量极高，我们无法接收您的来电。对于给您带来的不便，我们深表歉意。
Original English
Automated Voice: Our records show you need to complete an interview. Due to extremely high call volumes, we are not able to accept your call. We apologize for the inconvenience.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 每次我们打电话过去，情况都是这样。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: That's how it is all the time that we call.
杰森·德帕尔: 那次通话，就像此前的无数次一样，毫无结果。他们告诉她，她只能等待他们的回电。所以现在她陷入了悬而未决的尴尬境地，无法获得粮食券。但她真正触动我的是她流露出的愤怒与挫败感。她告诉我们，她已经不得不开始去求助于食品银行，而且她甚至停止了母乳喂养她的孩子，因为她担心自己身体严重缺乏营养。
Original English
Jason Deparl: That call, like others, went nowhere. They told her she'd just have to wait for a call back. So now here she is in limbo, unable to get access to food stamps. But what really struck me about her was just how angry and defeated she seemed. She told us she'd been going to food banks, that she'd stopped breastfeeding her child because she feared she lacked nutrients. Oh no,
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 我甚至想过直接走进一家杂货店，把一大堆食物塞进包里然后直接跑出去。我已经到了那种地步。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: I've been thinking about going into a grocery store, just put a whole bunch of food and run out. I'm at that point,
杰森·德帕尔: 接着她还说了一些非常惊人的话。她说她曾幻想过去偷食物。
Original English
Jason Deparl: And then she said something like really remarkable. She said she'd been having fantasies about stealing food.
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 比如去注册成为 Instacart 的配送司机，然后直接把本该送给顾客的杂货留下来给我的孩子们吃。我真的已经到了那个份上，你知道吗？
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: like I will sign up for Insta Car as a driver and keep the groceries for my kids. I'm at that point, you know,
杰森·德帕尔: 她的语气里没有抱歉，但也绝对称不上挑衅。她不是在为自己的想法开脱。她只是在陈述现实。
Original English
Jason Deparl: she wasn't apologetic. She wasn't defiant. She wasn't justifying it. She was just saying
阿莱杭德拉·卡西利亚斯: 但当我仔细想一想后，我又觉得，他们虽然把我逼到了这个份上，但我的孩子们需要我，所以我绝对不能去触犯法律。所以，我感觉自己完全被困住了。这就是我现在的真实生活状态。
Original English
Alejandra Casillas: then I do think it through. I'm like, they're pushing me to that point, but my kids need me, so I can't be breaking no laws. So, I'm like stuck, you know? Here it is. This is This is the way I'm living right now.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 她显然是非常绝望了。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: She was really desperate, obviously.
杰森·德帕尔: 是的。而阿莱杭德拉的故事中最不寻常的一点，恰恰在于它毫无特殊之处。在我们谈过的几乎每一个人身上，都能听到这个故事的影子。如果只是一两个人向你讲述这样的遭遇，你还可以认为这可能只是个别极端特例，但在亚利桑那州，这已经成了常态，而不是例外。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Yes. And part of what was remarkable about Alejandra's story is that that there was nothing remarkable about it. We heard echoes of that with almost everybody we talked to. I mean, if one or two people um tells you a story like that, you can always think, well, maybe it's an extraordinary circumstance, but it was the norm, not the exception in Arizona.
系统性崩溃与荒谬证明材料
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 听你这么说，再结合阿莱杭德拉的遭遇，这听起来像是整个社会保障系统在某种意义上彻底瘫痪了。这究竟是怎么发生的？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: I have to say, Jason, hearing that and hearing how common it sounds like Alejandra's experience is, it sounds like the system completely broke down in a sense. How did that happen?
杰森·德帕尔: 确实如此。它彻底瘫痪了，这是一场“完美风暴”。但这之中的很大一部分，都可以追溯到亚利桑那州决定改变其纸质文件证明材料要求的决定。过去，申请人只需要走进办公室，口头告诉个案工作人家里有几口人、他们分别是谁即可。现在，申请人必须去找邻居或朋友，让他们开具一份纸质的书面声明，来证明家里确实住了这些人。如果邻居或朋友忘记在信上签字，或者忘记写上电话号码，整个申请流程就得推倒重来。过去，如果你有靠乞讨获得的零散收入（panhandling income），你只需要向办公室提供你对收入的最佳估算即可。现在，他们要求有乞讨收入的申请人回去提供书面证明，证明路人往他们罐子里扔的每一分钱。
Original English
Jason Deparl: It did. It completely broke down. It was a perfect storm. Uh, but a lot of it can be traced back to the decision Arizona made to change the paperwork requirements. It used to be that applicants could just walk in the office and tell a caseworker how many people lived in the household and who they were. Now, applicants had to go to neighbors or friends and get a written declaration of who lived in the household. And if the neighbor or friend failed to sign the letter or failed to put their phone number on the letter, you'd have to start all over again. It used to be if you had panhandling income, you gave the office your best guess of how much you made. Now they asked applicants with panhandling income to go back and get written documentation of the money people had dropped in the jars.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 什么？这怎么可能拿得出？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: What?
杰森·德帕尔: 他们心里很清楚，人们根本没有办法拿到这种证明。当我们和工作人员交流时，他们自己也承认了这一点。他们翻着白眼对我们说：“是的，这确实很荒谬，但这是我们必须去执行的规定。” 到头来，如果申请人实在拿不出书面证明，他们最终还是会接受口头陈述。但关键在于，他们必须先让申请人回去尝试提供。而理所当然的是，一旦你让这些本就生活在挣扎中的人回去提供这种不可能的材料，很多人就再也没有回来过。
更糟糕的是，就在联邦政府通过这一法案的同时，亚利桑那州恰好对个案工作人进行了大幅度的裁员。在要求人们提交更多证明文件的同时，该州却裁减了三分之一的个案工作人员。
Original English
Jason Deparl: They knew that there was no way that people could go get that. They said that to us when we talked to them. They rolled their eyes and said, "Yes, this is absurd, but this is what we have to do." And in the end, if they can't get the written documentation, we'll take their word for it. But we have to make them go out and try. And of course, if you make people go out and try, a lot of them just don't come back. And another thing that made things worse is that Arizona just happened to make deep cuts in case workers at the same time the federal government was passing this bill. So, it lost a third of its case workers at the very time it was asking people to submit more paperwork.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 这意味着在这些办公室里处理申请的人手大大减少了，工作人员的编制被强行缩减了。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Meaning there were way fewer people working in these offices processing these claims. The staff was just reduced.
杰森·德帕尔: 更多的纸质材料，更少的人手去审核。正是如此。
Original English
Jason Deparl: More paperwork, fewer people to look at it. Yes.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 明白。正是亚利桑那州这些因素的叠加，导致了多达五十万人突然失去了他们的福利。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Right. And so, it's that combination of factors in Arizona that then leads to half a million people suddenly losing their benefits.
杰森·德帕尔: 是的。而且天哪，这以极其深远的方式影响了他们的生活。人们开始省吃俭用少吃一顿饭，家庭内部为了分配食物而爆发争吵，甚至有人通过变卖血浆来换取买食物的钱，房租也开始拖欠。而且请记住，这些人在绝大多数情况下仍然符合 SNAP 的申领资格。
我们遇到的一位名叫迪·麦克唐纳（D. McDonald）的女性，就是最为典型的例子。我们马上回来。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Yes. And boy, did it affect them in profound ways. People were skipping meals. People were having household quarrels over food. They were selling blood plasma to get money to buy food. They were falling behind on the rent. And remember, these are people who by and large remain eligible for SNAP. That was definitely the case with a woman we met named D. McDonald. We'll be right back.
迪·麦克唐纳的故事：从摇滚乐队随行人员到全职祖母
迪·麦克唐纳: 抱歉。
Original English
D. McDonald: Sorry.
杰森·德帕尔: 早上好。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Good morning.
迪·麦克唐纳: 早上好。我刚刚洗完澡出来。
Original English
D. McDonald: Good morning. I just got out of the shower.
杰森·德帕尔: 真抱歉打扰了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: I'm sorry.
杰森·德帕尔: 她是一位居住在亚利桑那州梅萨市的 65 岁祖母，身高不超过 5 英尺。她戴着一顶针织贝雷帽。
Original English
Jason Deparl: He's a 65year-old grandmother in Mesa, Arizona. can't be more than 5t tall. She was wearing a a knit beret.
迪·麦克唐纳: 刚刚那是托比亚斯，他准备去上班了。
Original English
D. McDonald: And that was Tobias. He's going to work.
杰森·德帕尔: 你好，托比亚斯。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Hi, Tobias.
迪·麦克唐纳: 大家请进。
Original English
D. McDonald: Everybody come in.
杰森·德帕尔: 托比亚斯。哦，谢谢你。那是你的孙子吗？
Original English
Jason Deparl: Tobias. Oh, thank you. That was your grandson.
迪·麦克唐纳: 孙子之一。
Original English
D. McDonald: One of them.
杰森·德帕尔: 我虽然不能百分之百肯定我走进去时她有没有拥抱我，但感觉上她拥抱了。我想她确实拥抱了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: I can't swear that she hugged me when I walked in, but it felt like she did. I think she did.
迪·麦克唐纳: 别客气，当成自己家一样。我特意给你们做了这个。
Original English
D. McDonald: Well, make yourself at home. Just I made this for you guys.
杰森·德帕尔: 天哪，太丰盛了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Oh my goodness. Oh my god. Wow. What a spread.
奥利维亚·纳特: 你做了什么？给我们介绍一下。
Original English
Olivia Nat: What did you make? Tell us what it is.
迪·麦克唐纳: 只是些比司吉面包。
Original English
D. McDonald: They're biscuits. They're just biscuits. And
杰森·德帕尔: 这可不仅仅是简单的面包。我们去那里本是为了和她聊聊粮食券和食品匮乏的问题，而她却在头一天花了一整天的时间为我们烘焙比司吉，还精心准备了一个水果大拼盘。
Original English
Jason Deparl: it's more than biscuits. We were there to talk to her about food stamps and food insecurity. And she'd spent the previous day baking biscuits and assembling
继前述，继续将访谈正文输出至 [TRANSCRIPT_END]：
迪·麦克唐纳: 这些是西班牙油条甜甜圈。
Original English
D. McDonald: These are um churo donuts.
杰森·德帕尔: 我以前从未吃过西班牙油条甜甜圈。它们真的太美味了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: I've never had a churo donut. They were fantastic.
迪·麦克唐纳: 甜甜圈。我是以非常划算的价格买到它们的，然后我快速炸了一下，再裹上肉桂糖粉。
Original English
D. McDonald: Donuts. I found them at a very good price and then I quickly fried them and dunked them in cinnamon sugar.
杰森·德帕尔: 哇。真棒。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Wow. Wow.
迪·麦克唐纳: 是的。还有这些水果，我昨天买的时候每个才一美元，我想我绝对不能错过这个机会。所以不管怎样……
Original English
D. McDonald: So yeah. And then all of this fruit I found for a dollar each yesterday, but I was like, I can't pass that up. So anyway,
杰森·德帕尔: 我最不希望的就是这样打扰她。但这就是她性格的写照。她是一个非常温暖、热情、极具慈祥祖母气质的女性。
Original English
Jason Deparl: the last thing I wanted to do was to impose on her like that. But that's an expression of who she is. She's a very warm, welcoming, grandmotherly woman.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 迪的故事是怎样的？她告诉了你她在使用 SNAP 过程中的哪些经历？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: And what's De's story? What'd she tell you about her experience with SNAP?
杰森·德帕尔: 我们围坐在她的桌子旁，她向我们讲述了自己的人生。那是非常精彩的一生。在过去的某个阶段：
Original English
Jason Deparl: So we sat around her table and she told us about her life. It'd been a pretty exciting life. At one point
迪·麦克唐纳: 我曾在本地做过摇滚乐团的随行技术人员（roadie）。我负责卸货、拉电缆、挂灯光，做各种各样类似的工作。我开始的第一份工作是负责 Boys II Men 乐团的服装。那已经是很久以前的事了。
Original English
D. McDonald: I was a roadie locally. I was unloading trucks, pulling cables, hanging lights, doing all kind of stuff like that. And I started, my first job was boys to men for wardrobe. That's how long ago.
杰森·德帕尔: 她曾是一名随行技术人员，具体来说是巡回摇滚乐队的服装技术员。
Original English
Jason Deparl: She was a kind of roadie. She was a a wardrobe technician for traveling rock bands.
迪·麦克唐纳: 你在舞台上看到的那些快速换装，就是我们负责的工作。我曾随吉米·巴菲特（Jimmy Buffett）一起巡演。我还被邀请与布兰妮·斯皮尔斯（Britney Spears）、玛丽莲·曼森（Marilyn Manson）以及活结乐队（Slipknot）一起巡演。她最终和布兰妮·斯皮尔斯以及吉米·巴菲特一起踏上了巡演旅程。
Original English
D. McDonald: The quick changes you see, that's what we do. Uh I toured with Jimmy Buffett. Britney Spears was asked to tour with Marilyn Manson, asked to tour with Slipnot. She went on tour with Britney Spears and Jimmy Buffett.
杰森·德帕尔: 真是太酷了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Awesome.
迪·麦克唐纳: 那是一生中最梦寐以求的经历。
Original English
D. McDonald: The dream of a lifetime.
迪·麦克唐纳: 过去我的收入相当不错。我非常努力才达到了我曾达到的位置。然而……
Original English
D. McDonald: And I was really doing well. I worked really hard to get where I where I got to. And
杰森·德帕尔: 当她 40 岁出头的时候，她的儿子陷入了一些麻烦。
Original English
Jason Deparl: when she was in her early 40s, her son fell into some trouble
迪·麦克唐纳: 就在那个时候，我知道我的职业生涯彻底结束了。
Original English
D. McDonald: and um that's when my I knew my career was over
杰森·德帕尔: 她最终承担起了抚养五个孙子的责任。
Original English
Jason Deparl: and she wound up taking care of five grandsons.
迪·麦克唐纳: 但我必须做出选择。我不希望他们被送到州立福利机构去。他们需要家人。
Original English
D. McDonald: But I had to make a choice. I didn't want them going to the state. They needed family
杰森·德帕尔: 在接纳了孙子们之后的一段时间里，她还工作过，曾在赛马场打过工，也做过其他工作。但最终她需要全职照顾孙子们，于是她向 SNAP 寻求帮助。
Original English
Jason Deparl: for a while. After taking in the grandkids, she worked um she had a job at a racetrack among other things, but eventually she needed to spend full time taking care of the grandkids and she turned to SNAP for help.
迪·麦克唐纳: 我觉得这是一种能帮到我们的方式，但我从未想过我会一直依赖它。我不能说永远，但确实用了很久。大约 15 年前，她开始领取 SNAP，并一直维持至今。
Original English
D. McDonald: I felt like it it was um a way to help us, but I never thought I would be on it forever. I can't say forever for this long. About 15 years ago, she started receiving SNAP and has been on it since.
迪·麦克唐纳: 如果没有 SNAP，我们可能会挨饿。我们真的会挨饿，或者至少我们肯定无法获得合理的营养。
Original English
D. McDonald: Without SNAP, we would have starved. We would have starved or maybe we wouldn't have starved. We would have not had the the proper nutrition for sure.
杰森·德帕尔: 她此前每月可以领到大约 700 美元的 SNAP 补助。这大约占她总收入的三分之一。其余的收入主要来自社会安全保障金（Social Security）。
Original English
Jason Deparl: She was receiving about $700 a month in SNAP aid. That's about a third of her income. The rest mostly comes from social security.
迪·麦克唐纳: 靠着这 700 美元，即使带着他们，我也能勉强维持。我每隔一天就要买四加仑的牛奶。四加仑的牛奶啊。我的意思是，这确实很紧巴，但我摸索出了一套办法：如果我对谁说我要去进行一次大采购，那就别指望能在 4 到 6 个小时内看到我。这就是我做的事。我会先去折扣店，再去面包店，然后再去水果和蔬菜店。我会到处看哪里在打折，然后专门去那里买。这就是我的采购方式。
Original English
D. McDonald: I can I can make it happen on 700 a month with even with them. I was buying four gallons of milk every other day. Four gallons of milk. I mean, it could it's stretching, but I learned if somebody if I say I'm going big grocery shopping, don't expect to see me for 4 to 6 hours. That's what I'm doing. I'm going to the discount store um first and then I'm going to the bread store. Then I'm going to go to the fruit and veggie store. Um, I'm gonna see where the sales are and I'm going to go there and that's what I'm going to do.
更新风波与一个致命的错误
杰森·德帕尔: 然而就在去年秋天，所有的福利补助突然停止了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: And then last fall all of a sudden the benefits stopped.
迪·麦克唐纳: 那真是一段糟糕的日子。
Original English
D. McDonald: That's not a good
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 为什么？为什么会停掉？发生了什么事？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: And why why do they stop? What happened?
杰森·德帕尔: 去年秋天，迪的福利面临年度更新。领取 SNAP 的人每年都必须经历一次这样的流程。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Last fall D's benefits were up for renewal. Once a year people on SNAP have to go through this.
迪·麦克唐纳: 我收到了一份需要更新的通知，这本来没什么新鲜的，那是在25年的10月份。好吧，25年10月份发生了什么？政府关门了。
Original English
D. McDonald: Well, I got a notice that I had to renew which was nothing new and it was October of 25. Well, what was going on in October 25? government was shut down.
杰森·德帕尔: 对她来说，这本该是例行公事。你需要提交你的收入证明。她的收入并没有变化。提交你的居住地址。她的地址也没有变。
Original English
Jason Deparl: It had always been matter of fact for her. You submit uh your income. Her income hadn't changed. You submit your address. Her address hadn't changed.
迪·麦克唐纳: 我当时想，太棒了，我竟然必须在政府关门的这一片混乱中去进行更新。但我还是做了。我按照规定填写并提交了申请。我也打了电话。
Original English
D. McDonald: And I thought, great, I've got to renew in the middle of all of this. So, I did. I did my application like I was supposed to do and got it turned in. Called
杰森·德帕尔: 她在十月份、也就是政府关门期间提交了申请材料。当时全国的粮食券计划都处于一片混乱之中。她没有得到答复，而她当时也并没有特别担心。
Original English
Jason Deparl: She filed her paperwork in October in the middle of the government shutdown. The food stamp program was in disarray nationwide. She didn't get an answer and she wasn't particularly worried at that time.
迪·麦克唐纳: 一切看起来都很顺利，我心想：“好吧，补助很快就会发下来的。”然而它并没有发下来。
Original English
D. McDonald: Everything seemed good and I thought, "Okay, it's going to come in and it didn't come in."
杰森·德帕尔: 到了第二个月，她依然没有得到任何答复。
Original English
Jason Deparl: And then the next month she didn't get an answer again.
杰森·德帕尔: 当你错过第二笔款项时，发生了什么？你当时是什么感受？
Original English
Jason Deparl: What happened when you missed your second payment? How did you feel?
迪·麦克唐纳: 愤怒、沮丧，而且感到害怕。你知道的，会想：“我该怎么撑过去？我还有一些大米和豆子，我们还有其他一些东西，但迟早会到一个临界点，我们会没有黄油，没有牛奶，吃光所有的奶酪。”
Original English
D. McDonald: Angry, frustrated, um, and scared, you know, like, "How am I going to I've got rice and beans. We, you know, we've got other things, but there's going to come a point where we don't have butter, we don't have milk, we're out of cheese."
杰森·德帕尔: 到了再下个月，她直接去了办公室现场。
Original English
Jason Deparl: The next month, she goes down to the office itself.
迪·麦克唐纳: 办公室的那位女士告诉我：“嗯，你只是众多排队等待的人之一。甚至还有人从九月份开始就一直在等。”我问她：“这到底是怎么回事？发生了什么？”她说：“我们本来有 1200 名工作人员，但被裁减到了不到 900 人，所以业务出现了严重积压。”她接着对我说：“坚持住，补助会来的。只是需要一些时间。”
Original English
D. McDonald: And the lady told me, "Well, you're one of many. There are people that are still waiting from September." And I said, "What's going on? What's happening?" And she said, "Well, we had 1,200 workers and they were cut to under nine and so they were backed up." And she said, "Hang in there. They're coming. Just going to take
杰森·德帕尔: 感恩节过去了。圣诞节也过去了。在新的一年开始之际：
Original English
Jason Deparl: Thanksgiving comes and goes. Christmas comes and goes. At the start of the new year,
迪·麦克唐纳: 到了元月份，我的福利还是没有发下来。真的没有。我当时觉得，“这肯定出大问题了。”我开始疯狂打电话，打了一个又一个。
Original English
D. McDonald: my benefits didn't come in January. They didn't. And I was like, "Something's just not okay here." I started calling, calling, calling, calling,
迪·麦克唐纳: 但我根本打不通。
Original English
D. McDonald: and I couldn't get through.
杰森·德帕尔: 她在一个月内打了一百多个电话。依然根本无法打通。
Original English
Jason Deparl: She makes 100 calls in a single month. Still can't get through.
迪·麦克唐纳: 然后到了二月中旬左右，我终于联系上了一个真人。那个人对我说：“他们已经关闭了你的个案。”
Original English
D. McDonald: And then in mid fe about midFebruary, I finally reached a real person. The guy says to me, "They closed your case."
杰森·德帕尔: 当她在二月份终于接通电话时，他们告诉她，她的个案已经被关闭了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: When she finally does in February, they tell her her case has been closed.
迪·麦克唐纳: 我说：“什么？我根本没收到信件。我在笔记本电脑的系统留言里也没看到任何消息。我的邮箱里什么都没有。我什么通知都没收到。为什么关闭我的个案？”
Original English
D. McDonald: I said, "What? I haven't gotten a letter. I haven't gotten anything on messaging, you know, on the laptop. I haven't gotten anything in the mail. I haven't gotten anything. Why' they close my case?"
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 为什么？为什么她的个案会被关闭？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Why? Why is her case closed?
杰森·德帕尔: 工作人员告诉她，她提交了错误的表格。
Original English
Jason Deparl: The case worker tells her that she submitted the wrong form.
迪·麦克唐纳: 这不对，这不可能。我对他说：“等一下，让我把我的文件调出来看一下。”他说：“好吧，这就是我在电脑系统里看到的。”他态度很好，并不粗鲁。我对他也很礼貌。我调出了我的文件，然后我惊呼：“哦，天哪，我确实把日期看错了。”
Original English
D. McDonald: That's not right. That's not possible. And I said, "Hold on. Let me pull my stuff and look." And he said, "Well, that's what I'm seeing." He was very nice. He wasn't rude. I wasn't rude to him and I pulled my stuff and I said, "Oh my gosh, I did pull the wrong date."
杰森·德帕尔: 迪从儿童福利系统中获得一点微薄的收入。她提交了一份 2024 年的收入申报表，而她本应该提交 2025 年的。她以前从未犯过这样的错，但这一次，她确实失误了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: D gets a little bit of income from the child welfare system. She submitted an income form from 2024 when she should have submitted an income form from 2025. She'd never done that before, but this time she made a mistake.
无情的制度与无法修正的过错
迪·麦克唐纳: 我填错了日期，于是我说：“好吧，我立刻就能把正确日期的文件调出来，下载并上传到系统里，马上就能办好。”而他却回答说：“因为他们已经关闭了你的个案，所以我无法在系统里重新修改处理了。”我问他：“如果出了错，我们不是应该有 30 天的时间去修正并把事情办好吗？”他说：“是的，以前确实是这样运作的。”他说：“让我去请示一下我的主管。”他回来后告诉我，他的主管不同意。他说他的主管不允许他重新开启我的个案来修正那份文件。
Original English
D. McDonald: I put the wrong date and I said, "Okay, I can pull it right now, the right date, and I can get it downloaded into the computer and get it and get it done." And he said, 'Well, they closed your case, so I can't rework it. And I said, "Don't we aren't we supposed to have like 30 days to fix things to make things right if there's something wrong?" And he said, "Yes, before we were, that's how it worked." He said, "Let me talk to my supervisor." He came back and they wouldn't he wouldn't let him open. He said his supervisor would not let him reopen my case to correct that document.
杰森·德帕尔: 伴随着 SNAP 的新变革，这个小小的失误已经足够将她彻底开除出该计划。值得一提的是，在新的考核系统中，拒绝原本符合条件的人申请，在系统里并不会被算作是行政错误。
Original English
Jason Deparl: And with the new changes to SNAP, that mistake was enough to disenroll her from the program. It's worth saying that denying eligible people doesn't actually count as a mistake under the new system.
迪·麦克唐纳: 我当时非常非常生气。我真的很愤怒。我甚至有一段时间没从自己的房间里出来。我一直在想，他们为什么要这样对大家？为什么要伤害普通人？我自己忍一忍还能挺过去，你把食物从我嘴里夺走，我总能想出别的办法。但我还有孩子，我正在抚养的孩子们需要健康地成长啊。
Original English
D. McDonald: I was very, very angry. I was very angry. I um didn't come out of my room for a little bit. I was like, why are they doing this to people? Why are they hurting people? You know, I'll survive. You take you take food out of my mouth. I'll figure it out. But I I've got children. I'm raising children that need to be growing healthy. You know,
杰森·德帕尔: 她意识到自己有两个选择：她可以提出申诉，尝试推翻这一决定。如果她这样做，她或许能够拿回这几个月来欠她的所有累积福利。或者，她也可以彻底重来，重新提交一份全新的申请，但这样她就无法拿到之前几个月拖欠的补助了。那位非常和蔼、并极力想要帮她的个案工作人员在电话里建议她去申诉。于是，她照做了。
Original English
Jason Deparl: she realizes she has two choices. She can appeal and try to get that decision overturned. If she does that, she might be able to get all the back benefits from the months of age she's owed. Or she can start all over again and file a new application, in which case she wouldn't get the back benefits. The very nice case worker she reached on the phone and tried very hard to be helpful told her that she should appeal. So, she did.
杰森·德帕尔: 结果怎么样？
Original English
Jason Deparl: And how did that go?
杰森·德帕尔: 你觉得你给申诉办公室打过多少次电话？
Original English
Jason Deparl: How many times do you think you've called the appeals office?
迪·麦克唐纳: 至少每天打一次。
Original English
D. McDonald: At least once a day.
杰森·德帕尔: 那你曾联系上过哪怕一个人吗？
Original English
Jason Deparl: Have you ever reached a person?
迪·麦克唐纳: 从来没有。
Original English
D. McDonald: No.
杰森·德帕尔: 她没有得到任何回复。已经过去五个月了，她仍在等待。我们是否认为，国会议员在撰写这些新法律时，初衷是为了因为一个无心之失而剥夺一位 65 岁祖母的粮食券？显然不是。但批评人士在当时就指出，这种官僚机构的陷入瘫痪是这些新规定在落实过程中完全可以预见到的后果。事实上，当时许多人就曾发出警告，称这些新的行政管理规则将使整个计划陷入混乱。
Original English
Jason Deparl: She never heard anything back. It's been 5 months. She's still waiting. Do I think members of Congress in writing the new laws intended to take SNAP away from 65-year-old grandmothers because of a casual mistake? No. But the critics said at the time that this kind of bureaucratic gridlock was a foreseeable element of the new rules that they put in place. And in fact, many people warned that these new administrative rules would throw the program into disarray.
行政差错指标的扭曲激励
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 杰森，这听起来像是，对 SNAP 的联邦层面修改，实际上最终演变成了逼迫人们离开该计划的手段。因为各州现在被如此强烈地驱使去降低错误率，以至于他们不惜以牺牲真正提供福利为代价来达到目的。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Jason, it sounds like this is how the federal changes to SNAP actually can end up forcing people off the program because now states are so incentivized to reduce their errors that they do so perhaps at the cost of actually providing this benefit.
杰森·德帕尔: 确实如此。如果该州在档案中保留着迪那张错误表格的同时，继续向她发放款项，这在系统核查中就会被算作是一次“行政错误”。所以你可以看出，对该州来说，继续提供福利的风险要远远高于直接关闭该个案的风险。其净效应就是，符合条件的困难家庭现在要获得该计划的资助变得困难得多，尽管他们完全有权利享有它。而对于倡导这些变革的共和党人来说，这样的故事会让他们有所动摇，还是说他们认为系统正在按照他们的预期正常发挥作用？他们是否会因为“各州正在认真对待这件事情，并尝试对纳税人资金的使用承担更多责任”这一说法而感到鼓舞？
Original English
Jason Deparl: Exactly. If the state had sent D her payment with that incorrect form in its files, it would have counted as an error. So you can see it becomes much more risky for the state to provide benefits than to simply close the case altogether. So the net effect of all this is that it's become much more difficult for eligible families like these to get access to the program even though they're entitled to it. And for the Republicans who advocated for these changes, does a story like these give them pause or do they see the system working as they intended? Are they actually encouraged maybe by the notion that the state is taking this seriously and trying to take more accountability for how it spends taxpayer money?
杰森·德帕尔: 我认为没有人会赞成行政差错。降低差错率对于最有效地利用公共资源、节省资金以及维持公众对该计划的支持而言固然非常重要。但问题在于，这要付出怎样的代价？
在很大程度上，我认为共和党人一直在为受助人数的下降而欢呼，而没有去仔细审视背后的真正原因。亚利桑那州参议院的共和党领袖甚至声称，受助人数大幅下降是因为他们打击了大规模的欺诈行为。在全国范围内，领取福利的人数减少了大约 450 万人，也就是说约 10% 的 SNAP 领取者退出了该计划。白宫将此赞誉为特朗普总统计划行之有效的证据。农业部长布鲁克·罗林斯（Brooke Rollins）也是如此。他们争辩说，人数下降是因为他们清除了欺诈，或者阻止了无证移民获取该计划。当然，在如此庞大规模的计划中，个别欺诈行为总是存在的，但我并没有看到任何证据表明存在能解释如此大规模人数下降的系统性欺诈。显然，我们在亚利桑那州看到的并非如此，而且我也不认为在其他州有这种证据。
Original English
Jason Deparl: I don't think anybody's in favor of administrative errors. It's important to keep error rates down in order to make the best use of public resources, to save money, to keep public support for the program. The question is, at what cost? For the most part, I think Republicans have celebrated the case load declines without looking too closely at what's behind them. The top Republican in the Arizona State Senate said there's massive case load decline because there was massive fraud. Nationally, the roles are down about four and a half million people or maybe 10% of the people getting snapped have left the roles. The White House has celebrated this as proof that President Trump's program is working. So has the Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins. Between them, they've argued that the roles are falling because they're rooting out fraud or barring undocumented immigrants from accessing the program. Certainly in a program as large as SNAP, there's always going to be individual fraud, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest widescale systemic fraud that could explain this kind of case load decline. Certainly, that's not what we saw in Arizona, and I don't think there's evidence of it in other states either.
危机是否将蔓延至全美
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 你说过亚利桑那州是第一个显现这种影响的州，因为它行动最快去落实这些更改以配合那项法案。我们是否应该预期在其他各州也会看到如此剧烈的影响？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: You said that Arizona has been the first to see this kind of impact because it moved so fast to make these changes to comply with the big, beautiful bill. Are we expecting to see this dramatic of an effect in other states?
杰森·德帕尔: 我想大多数人都会猜测亚利桑那州是一个极端的例子，但我们目前还无法确定。在全国范围内，这些变化尚未完全铺开。如果你还记得的话，国会将他们做出的许多修改推迟到了中期选举之后才执行。所以，在很大程度上，我们目前还没有看到这些变革在全美范围内产生的全部冲击。但我们有充分的理由怀疑，其他州的反应可能会与亚利桑那州非常相似。
从今年 11 月开始，联邦政府拨给各州用于运行该计划的行政经费开支将减半。这可能会迫使其他各州像亚利桑那州那样裁减个案工作人员。目前，一些其他州的申领人数已经出现了 15% 到 20% 的下滑。有些州的行政差错率本来就很低，可能不需要做出太大调整。但有些州的行政差错率极高，为了避免数额巨大的联邦处罚，它们将不得不进行极其激进的改变。由于我们对它们将如何应对、它们的电脑系统运行状况如何，或者它们拥有多少个案工作人手还缺乏足够了解，我们很难有把握地预测这些变化将如何影响全美的整体福利申领状况。但如果以亚利桑那州为参照，我们完全有理由感到深切担忧。
Original English
Jason Deparl: I think most people would guess that Arizona is an extreme example, but we don't really know. Nationwide, the rules haven't taken place yet. If you recall, Congress delayed the changes they made till after the midterm elections. So, for the most part, we haven't seen the impact of these changes yet. But there are reasons to suspect that other states may respond in similar ways to Arizona. Starting in November, the federal government's going to cut in half the amount of administrative money it gives states to run the program. That could cause states to lay off case workers, just as Arizona did. Some other states have already had case load declines of 15 to 20%. Some states have very low error rates and don't need to change much. Some states have extremely high error rates and have to make radical changes to avoid big federal penalties. We don't know enough about how they'll respond, how good their computer systems are, or how many case workers they have to predict with much confidence how these changes will affect the case load nationwide. But if you look at Arizona, there's reason to be concerned.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 杰森，你报道贫困问题已经有四十年了。面对当下的这一刻，以及它的重要影响，你在思考些什么？
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Jason, you've been covering poverty for four decades. What are you thinking about this moment, about how significant it is?
杰森·德帕尔: 我在思考 SNAP 是一项多么不可或缺的社会计划。SNAP 是美国最接近全民基本收入（universal income）的制度。它服务于如此广泛而多元的脆弱群体：它服务于低收入在职家庭，服务于儿童，服务于老年人，服务于退伍军人。而且它提供的是最基本的生存物资——食物。从该法律通过的那一刻起，显而易见这就是一项具有里程碑意义的立法，但我认为当时没有任何人能料到我们在亚利桑那州所看到的如此惊人的福利脱钩规模。
在过去，我曾设想过一个规模缩水、或者有着更严苛工作要求、亦或补助金额有所降低的 SNAP 计划。但我认为，我此前从未想象过一种“在某些地方，粮食券计划实际上已经完全不复存在”的图景。而一想到这些巨额罚款和行政成本负担可能会如此沉重，以至于某些州可能最终主动选择完全取消这一计划，这真的令人感到难以置信。但这现在已经成了一个真切存在的可能性。
Original English
Jason Deparl: I'm thinking about what an important program SNAP is. SNAP is the closest thing the United States has to a universal income. It serves such a wide variety of people. It serves the working poor. It serves children. It serves the elderly. It serves veterans. and it provides a basic commodity, food. It was clear from the moment the law passed that this was landmark legislation, but I don't think anybody expected the degree of case load decline that we've seen in Arizona. You know, I've I've thought about a smaller SNAP program. I've imagined a SNAP program with more work requirements. I've imagined a SNAP program with lower benefits. I don't think I've ever imagined a landscape in which a SNAP program simply didn't exist. And it's just mindboggling to think that these penalties, these costs could be so steep some states might choose to end the program altogether. That's a real possibility.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 好的，杰森，非常感谢你来到这里。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Well, Jason, thanks for being here.
杰森·德帕尔: 谢谢你，纳塔莉。
Original English
Jason Deparl: Thank you, Natalie.
底层民众的拷问
杰森·德帕尔: 那么，自从你的个案被关闭后，生活变成了什么样？
Original English
Jason Deparl: What's life been like since your case was closed?
迪·麦克唐纳: 这真的让人心力交瘁。因为我每天早上一睁开眼就会想：我们今天晚饭要吃什么？孩子们有什么可以吃的？有什么零食？他们有早餐吗？我们有足够的胡萝卜吗？我们有足够的小番茄吗？我们有足够的材料来做一顿今晚的沙拉吗？当你习惯了每个月有 700 美元专项用于买食物的预算，而这笔预算突然消失时，你就必须发疯一样地去到处琢磨，这些食物到底要从哪里来。
我确信有人在钻这个政策的空子，我肯定有。但是，我认为把食物从饥饿的人口中夺走是极其不人道的。我们这个社会到底在干什么？
Original English
D. McDonald: It's draining because I get up in the morning and I think, what are we going to have for dinner? What do they have to eat? What do they have to snack on? Do they have breakfast foods? Do they have enough carrots to eat? Do they have enough baby tomatoes to eat? Do we have enough to make a salad for dinner tonight? When you take a drop of $700 in your budget that you're used to that being the food, you then have to figure out where that food's going to come from. I'm sure there's people that are taking advantage of it. I'm sure there are. But I think it's inhumane to take food from people. What are we doing here?
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 我们马上回来。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: We'll be right back.
今日其他要闻
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 以下是今天您需要了解的其他重要新闻。在周三上午，备受关注的密歇根州民主党联邦参议员初选结果依然难分胜负。左翼候选人阿卜杜勒·赛义德（Abdul Elsed）以大约 19,000 票的微弱优势暂时领先。他领先其温和派对手、国会女议员海莉·史蒂文斯（Haley Stevens）的优势，比最近的民意调查显示的要窄得多。但对于民主党在一个摇摆州的进步翼来说，这依然是一个里程碑，因为它表明该运动的吸引力已经超出了像纽约州这样传统的自由派大本营。赛义德的竞选主张是全民医保以及切断对以色列的军事援助，而史蒂文斯则获得了 6000 万美元的外部资金支持，在资金规模上占据绝对优势。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: Here's what else you need to know today. The closely watched Democratic primary for US Senate in Michigan remained too close to call on Wednesday morning with the left-wing candidate Abdul Elsed clinging to a narrow lead of about 19,000 votes. That lead over his moderate opponent, Congresswoman Haley Stevens, was much narrower than what recent polls had shown. But it marked a milestone for the progressive wing of the Democratic party in a swing state because it showed that the movement's appeal has reached beyond traditionally liberal states like New York. Elsa, who campaigned on universal health care and cutting off military aid to Israel, was massively outspent in the race by Stevens, who received $60 million in outside money. and
斯科特·贝森特: 我们正在与伊朗人进行谈判。我认为我们有可能在今天或明天达成协议，以开放海峡并朝着更常态化的局势迈进。
Original English
Scott Bessent: we are in talks with the Iranians and I think there is a chance we may have a deal today or tomorrow uh to open the strait and move towards a more normalized position in this conflict.
纳塔莉·基特罗夫: 周二，财政部长斯科特·贝森特（Scott Bessent）和国务卿马尔科·卢比奥（Marco Rubio）对记者表示，在目前考虑的框架下，重新开放霍尔木兹海峡的谈判正在取得进展。进入波斯湾的船只必须通过由伊朗控制的通道，而出境的船只则将通过靠近阿曼的通道。
本期节目由奥利维亚·纳特、安娜·福里和卡洛斯·普列托制作，里奇·内茨基协助制作。由马克·乔治编辑，帕特里夏·威林斯协助编辑。本集包含帕特·麦卡斯克、阿莉西亚·埃图普、丹·鲍威尔和马里亚·洛萨诺创作的音乐。我们的主题音乐由 Wonderly 创作。本期节目由阿莉莎·莫克斯利进行音频工程制作。
这就是今天的《每日新闻》。我是纳塔莉·基特罗夫。我们明天见。
Original English
Natalie Kitroof: On Tuesday, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and Secretary of State Marco Rubio told reporters that negotiations to reopen the Strait of Hormuz are making progress under the framework being considered. Ships entering the Persian Gulf would have to travel through a channel controlled by Iran, while outbound ships would travel through a channel near Oman. Today's episode was produced by Olivia Nat, Anna Foley, and Carlos Prito with help from Ricky Netski. It was edited by Mark George with help from Patricia Willins and contains music by Pat McCusker, Alicia Etup, Dan Powell, and Marian Lozano. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for the daily. I'm Natalie Kroth. See you tomorrow.