[Host Jay]: Pet owners know the stress your cat started throwing up. Your dog has a limp. Maybe your rabbit stopped eating. You hope it's nothing serious, and maybe it isn't. But there's only one way to find out. You have to go see a vet. And that's a whole world of stress. Even if the diagnosis ends up being good, what will it cost? Will you be able to afford it? Do they really need this test or is the vet just looking to make some money? Add in the cost of food, medication and stuff like dog walking or cat sitting, and you're looking at a pretty hefty price tag. Every year we dig into what it costs to have a pet and how pet owners are coping during an affordability crisis. And when it comes to our furry or scaly or feathered friends, many people are willing to spare no expense because they are part of the family. We look at what science has to say about the bond between people and their pets, and what they really think of us. Welcome to The Rundown. Vets are under pressure. There's a workforce shortage, long hours burnout, and pet owners are facing their own challenges as costs climb and care is harder to find.

[Host Jay]: Joining us from Ottawa, Charmaine Brett is the president and CEO of the Ontario SPCA and Humane Society. Cliff Redford is a veterinarian who owns and operates the Wellington Veterinarian Hospital. Great to have you here, doctor Cliff, great to have you on the line. Charmaine. Charmaine, I'm going to come to you. When it comes to affordability, can you give us a sense of what areas of pet care are affected right now?

[Charmaine Brett]: Well, it's really we're seeing pressures right across the system. We're seeing shortage of veterinarians, which is causing a lot of stress in the system with people having access to it. We're seeing a rise of pet care costs, which is like the supplies, the pet food, rising costs for just basic appointments in care. So really it's, it's accessibility right across the system that's affecting families. And we're really trying to address it from a preventative stream of work where we're really trying to hit families at the community level and offer all services that can really help them keep their pets and people together.

[Host Jay]: What's driving the increase?

[Charmaine Brett]: I think it's a multitude of effects. We're calling it pet flation. We're seeing rising food costs in the grocery store, right? So it's the same thing with pets. You're seeing the pet food crisis, the pet food prices go up, but you're seeing every single thing that a pet needs is going up in cost. Just like our clothing is going up, our groceries are apples, all of it. So it's just an impact across the system, but it's also hitting the veterinary costs. Your operating costs are going up in the clinics as well, which is causing from my side non-profit increase in costs. Right. But it's across the board. It's just a, it's a systemic pressure across the system, which is really just hitting families and really making them struggle and need that preventative care so they can keep their pets and people together.

[Host Jay]: Doctor Cliff, let's talk pet health care. That's a big one. What is the cost of veterinary care right now? Is it rising? What are we seeing?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, it is. It is rising for a lot of the reasons that she mentioned. Not only are my, you know, my rents higher significantly more than it used to be. My laboratory costs, my medical costs, like as far as medicines that I have to purchase, but also the services that veterinarians can now provide and the services that pet owners are expecting and wanting for their pets is so much more technologically advanced than it was even five years ago.

[Host Jay]: What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Well, like every single animal hospital has to have a X-ray machine, and now you better have a digital X-ray machine and you better be able to read it really, really quickly. I only have a two veterinarian hospital. I've got a digital X-ray machine. I now have an ultrasound because we're doing urgent care to try and remove some of the burden on emergency hospitals, in-house blood machine. The types of surgeries that are being done are much more elevated and technique. And then last but not least, you know, the economy, everything's gone up in price. So for me to be able to keep my team happy, I have to pay them. Thank goodness what they're worth, they're amazing. So I have to pay them more. And they've I've been able to give them raises, you know, far beyond, let's say, inflation because they deserve it. And unfortunately all these things increase increase. The bottom line.

[Host Jay]: I don't want to get right into the nitty gritty of your books, but I am curious, some of these machines, when you talk about the X-ray machines or diagnostics, what are we looking at? As someone who runs an independent veterinary clinic? What does that cost someone like you?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, like a digital X-ray machine for, say, a whole body. So we're not even talking about the digital dental X-ray machine that I also have. It's about $50,000. Now, if you look at human health care, you go to your doctor, your doctor writes you a requisition to go get an X-ray machine at a separate facility that is churning out three, 400 of these X-rays a day because they're servicing a large piece of the community. Think about every single brick and mortar veterinary hospital has to have one of those X-ray machines. It increases the price. But thank goodness, the service and the ability of of us caring for these animals is, is great as well.

[Host Jay]: Charmaine, the Ontario SPCA and Humane Society reported a 17% rise in surrender requests from 2024 to 2025. Can you give us an idea of what you have seen on the front line so far?

[Charmaine Brett]: Yeah, I think that goes right back to what doctor Cliff saying that accessibility to affordable veterinary care is just not it's not in the reach of families right now. And they're delaying those visits to the veterinarian to be able to see and to be able to treat their animals. So people are having animals at home that are getting sicker and sicker, and then they're showing up at our doorstep when they're in a really rough state and they're having to surrender them. And we're seeing it. I spoke to one of our centres yesterday. They're getting about 15 calls a week for cases of surrender. And it's it's it's just really sad. And to address it, we really just have to offer that preventative care, the community level, access to veterinary services, but also just like pet food banks partnering with human food banks and being able to have that resource available behaviour training accessible at the community level. We have this really neat program right now. We're partnering with Meals on Wheels where it's looking at, okay, all of those seniors out there that they need pet food, they need human food. Let's just also give them pet food at the same time. And then it's that entry point to be able to go in and say, hey, has your, has your cat had a nail trim? Do you guys need anything else? When's the last time you saw a vet? So it's just bringing those services to the population and those, the people that really need them and doing it at the community level.

[Host Jay]: Doctor Cliff, let's talk pet health care. That's a big one. What is the cost of veterinary care right now? Is it rising? What are we seeing?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, it is. It is rising for a lot of the reasons that she mentioned. Not only are my, you know, my rents higher significantly more than it used to be. My laboratory costs, my medical costs, like as far as medicines that I have to purchase, but also the services that veterinarians can now provide and the services that pet owners are expecting and wanting for their pets is so much more technologically advanced than it was even five years ago.

[Host Jay]: What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Well, like every single animal hospital has to have a X-ray machine, and now you better have a digital X-ray machine and you better be able to read it really, really quickly. I only have a two veterinarian hospital. I've got a digital X-ray machine. I now have an ultrasound because we're doing urgent care to try and remove some of the burden on emergency hospitals, in-house blood machine. The types of surgeries that are being done are much more elevated and technique. And then last but not least, you know, the economy, everything's gone up in price. So for me to be able to keep my team happy, I have to pay them. Thank goodness what they're worth, they're amazing. So I have to pay them more. And they've I've been able to give them raises, you know, far beyond, let's say, inflation because they deserve it. And unfortunately all these things increase increase. The bottom line.

[Host Jay]: I don't want to get right into the nitty gritty of your books, but I am curious, some of these machines, when you talk about the X-ray machines or diagnostics, what are we looking at? As someone who runs an independent veterinary clinic? What does that cost someone like you?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, like a digital X-ray machine for, say, a whole body. So we're not even talking about the digital dental X-ray machine that I also have. It's about $50,000. Now, if you look at human health care, you go to your doctor, your doctor writes you a requisition to go get an X-ray machine at a separate facility that is churning out three, 400 of these X-rays a day because they're servicing a large piece of the community. Think about every single brick and mortar veterinary hospital has to have one of those X-ray machines. It increases the price. But thank goodness, the service and the ability of of us caring for these animals is, is great as well.

[Host Jay]: Charmaine, the Ontario SPCA and Humane Society reported a 17% rise in surrender requests from 2024 to 2025. Can you give us an idea of what you have seen on the front line so far?

[Charmaine Brett]: Yeah, I think that goes right back to what doctor Cliff saying that accessibility to affordable veterinary care is just not it's not in the reach of families right now. And they're delaying those visits to the veterinarian to be able to see and to be able to treat their animals. So people are having animals at home that are getting sicker and sicker, and then they're showing up at our doorstep when they're in a really rough state and they're having to surrender them. And we're seeing it. I spoke to one of our centres yesterday. They're getting about 15 calls a week for cases of surrender. And it's it's it's just really sad. And to address it, we really just have to offer that preventative care, the community level, access to veterinary services, but also just like pet food banks partnering with human food banks and being able to have that resource available behaviour training accessible at the community level. We have this really neat program right now. We're partnering with Meals on Wheels where it's looking at, okay, all of those seniors out there that they need pet food, they need human food. Let's just also give them pet food at the same time. And then it's that entry point to be able to go in and say, hey, has your, has your cat had a nail trim? Do you guys need anything else? When's the last time you saw a vet? So it's just bringing those services to the population and those, the people that really need them and doing it at the community level.

[Host Jay]: Doctor Cliff, let's talk pet health care. That's a big one. What is the cost of veterinary care right now? Is it rising? What are we seeing?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, it is. It is rising for a lot of the reasons that she mentioned. Not only are my, you know, my rents higher significantly more than it used to be. My laboratory costs, my medical costs, like as far as medicines that I have to purchase, but also the services that veterinarians can now provide and the services that pet owners are expecting and wanting for their pets is so much more technologically advanced than it was even five years ago.

[Host Jay]: What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Well, like every single animal hospital has to have a X-ray machine, and now you better have a digital X-ray machine and you better be able to read it really, really quickly. I only have a two veterinarian hospital. I've got a digital X-ray machine. I now have an ultrasound because we're doing urgent care to try and remove some of the burden on emergency hospitals, in-house blood machine. The types of surgeries that are being done are much more elevated and technique. And then last but not least, you know, the economy, everything's gone up in price. So for me to be able to keep my team happy, I have to pay them. Thank goodness what they're worth, they're amazing. So I have to pay them more. And they've I've been able to give them raises, you know, far beyond, let's say, inflation because they deserve it. And unfortunately all these things increase increase. The bottom line.

[Host Jay]: I don't want to get right into the nitty gritty of your books, but I am curious, some of these machines, when you talk about the X-ray machines or diagnostics, what are we looking at? As someone who runs an independent veterinary clinic? What does that cost someone like you?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, like a digital X-ray machine for, say, a whole body. So we're not even talking about the digital dental X-ray machine that I also have. It's about $50,000. Now, if you look at human health care, you go to your doctor, your doctor writes you a requisition to go get an X-ray machine at a separate facility that is churning out three, 400 of these X-rays a day because they're servicing a large piece of the community. Think about every single brick and mortar veterinary hospital has to have one of those X-ray machines. It increases the price. But thank goodness, the service and the ability of of us caring for these animals is, is great as well.

[Host Jay]: Charmaine, the Ontario SPCA and Humane Society reported a 17% rise in surrender requests from 2024 to 2025. Can you give us an idea of what you have seen on the front line so far?

[Charmaine Brett]: Yeah, I think that goes right back to what doctor Cliff saying that accessibility to affordable veterinary care is just not it's not in the reach of families right now. And they're delaying those visits to the veterinarian to be able to see and to be able to treat their animals. So people are having animals at home that are getting sicker and sicker, and then they're showing up at our doorstep when they're in a really rough state and they're having to surrender them. And we're seeing it. I spoke to one of our centres yesterday. They're getting about 15 calls a week for cases of surrender. And it's it's it's just really sad. And to address it, we really just have to offer that preventative care, the community level, access to veterinary services, but also just like pet food banks partnering with human food banks and being able to have that resource available behaviour training accessible at the community level. We have this really neat program right now. We're partnering with Meals on Wheels where it's looking at, okay, all of those seniors out there that they need pet food, they need human food. Let's just also give them pet food at the same time. And then it's that entry point to be able to go in and say, hey, has your, has your cat had a nail trim? Do you guys need anything else? When's the last time you saw a vet? So it's just bringing those services to the population and those, the people that really need them and doing it at the community level.

[Host Jay]: As you said, Charmaine, it's partly because people are unable to afford the vet bills.

[Charmaine Brett]: Yes, and not just the costs. We're seeing a wave of veterinarian shortages because of mass veterinarian burnout. That's partly due to student debt, and also is long hours, and then possibly getting bullied by clients. That's something that clients don't realize. We're losing young veterinarians, they're deciding not to be in the field. The pandemic caused so many people to rethink their life and maybe chase a different dream. So not only the veterinarians, but if you lose technicians or ACAs or receptionists.

[Host Jay]: Animal care assistants, I mean, God forbid now the veterinarian has to draw blood. You do not want the veterinarian drawing blood on your animal. And so it just drops the number of team members. And and it just affects the number of animals a veterinarian like myself is able to see. So it is, it is a higher demand because more people have pets, more people want to take care of their pets, but there's less people to do so.

[Charmaine Brett]: Yeah, it's it's pretty easy to see in major cities across Canada, about 50% of veterinarian clinics now are owned by corporations. Some of them change their name. So it's very, very clear, but a lot of them don't change the name because they want to kind of keep that community feel. So you may not even realize that your friendly neighborhood veterinarian has actually sold to a corporation during the pandemic for various economic reasons that I don't fully understand the the buying power of these corporations became so high that they were offering veterinarians, including myself, two to two and a half times higher than I would have ever imagined. I could have gotten my clinic. I seriously thought about it. I was in some need for some money to help take care of my mom. Me and my siblings wanted to help her out of a jam. Thank goodness I didn't pull the trigger. I just used the equity. I was able to use the equity in my business and get a loan from the bank. But the reality is, is I wouldn't have had the freedom that I, that I want and I love. Some people say I don't get along with authority as well. And that may be why I own a clinic. But, you know, I do a lot of volunteer travel. I'm going to Jamaica next month. I was in Jamaica a couple of months ago after the hurricane. I've traveled all around the world. My clinic pays for it. I pay for it through my clinic. There's no way a private equity firm, which is who owns these corporations? Berkshire is a big one. They're not going to approve me spending $20,000 to go help animals in another country. So I like that freedom. I like the freedom to be able to offer discounts if I need to, to maybe avoid those animals being surrendered to Charmaine and her facilities. So it just gives me some freedom. And I feel that the service and the care is better.

[Host Jay]: You had mentioned it's pretty obvious to see you're talking about sort of, you know, the titles and the branding of a company, but what does it look like when it comes to the cost of vet care?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, it's difficult. And I mean, every single clinic or let's say corporation is a little bit different. And it really depends upon sort of the leader that's there. But a lot of these veterinarians are reaching retirement age, so they'll sell understandably, they're going to try and get as much as they can, and then they're gone within a year. And you will start to see there's pressure to the associates. I hear it all the time. The associates that are now working for this private equity firm that have no interest in actual medical or surgical services, they're looking at a bottom line. They got to worry about their investors. They are feeling pressure to to produce essentially. And so I see these invoices that are just climbing, climbing, climbing for reasons I can't fully understand. And it's anecdotal. It's something I'm seeing happen regularly now.

[Host Jay]: Charmaine, you had mentioned, you know, programs to help alleviate some pressure. You've partnered with 57 food banks across the province. Can you give us a sense of how these conditions that we talked about access to vets, food affordability for our furry friends differ across the province?

[Charmaine Brett]: Yeah, I think at the Ontario SPCA, we're really uniquely positioned. We have 14 centres across the province, so we have a great ability to span in those remote, remote areas and to bring animals throughout the province in a nice transfer way. It's amazing to see the difference in the communities up in Renfrew area in the East, it's not about having the affordability to to access. There's just no vet services there. We have stories of people going with their animals to vet clinics, and they can't pay to see a vet because the vet's booked up, so they have to drive hours to Ottawa to access care. And there's so many heartbreaking stories with the animals, they just don't make it because they haven't been able to do that trip down because they were so sick in the first place. So access is really about one. Is their veterinarians there or is there affordable veterinary care? And there's so many different models that we're trying to use to be able to support the population. We have mobile clinics going up to the rural parts, where we're bringing vet teams in and having vet clinics up to bring affordable care, as well as brick and mortar clinics in the cities. We have five of them now in Sudbury, Thunder Bay in Durham, in York, and in Barrie to really help the population bringing it to the community level. But then also the behaviour training, the affordability to pet, just offering pet food services to the population. But I think the biggest thing is really working in a system, right? Working with the social services, with the municipalities to get the word out there that we have this and we can offer it to the population. That's the biggest thing right now.

[Host Jay]: I do have to ask a question. I think all three of us are animal lovers. I'm going to I'm going to throw that out there. But is there a serious conversation that needs to happen where people in this moment, in this crisis, if they can't afford to take care of a pet, perhaps they should not have a pet? Charmaine.

[Charmaine Brett]: I think situations are just changing though. People who have had pets, elderly people who have had pets for 20 years all of a sudden are hitting an economic situation where it's just more difficult, right? And we want to keep those pets and people together because it's that human animal bond that if you're if you're an elderly person, that cat is your livelihood, right? So being able to keep them with them really helps the pets. It helps the people, it makes everybody happy. So I think it's really about what tools can we give them so that they can stay together.

[Host Jay]: Doctor Cliff.

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah. I mean, no one expected gas to go up 20% in the last month, right? Things change. Charmaine told the story of the family whose rent just kept climbing and climbing and climbing, and they couldn't keep their three animals. And then, you know, wonderful services like the SPCA were able to do an emergency. Foster, let's say a lot of times people get pets, they get them for the right reasons and usually not always, but usually at the right time in their lives. And then emergencies happen or their lifestyle changes significantly due to their financial stability. And all of us need help. All of us need help sometime in our lives. And taking a pet away from a family is the last thing you want to do for the family, and definitely for the pet as well.

[Host Jay]: Alright. I want to pick up on a note that Charmaine had mentioned about not having vets up there. We have a lot of conversations in this studio about the doctor shortage in the health care system. That is very much the same situation for vets across this province. What is it like for those in the vet care profession?

[Charmaine Brett]: Yeah, we're seeing a crisis now that we never would have anticipated. There are five veterinarian schools in Ontario and a lot of foreign trained veterinarians coming and wanting to work in Canada and Ontario, and the college is doing everything we can to to license them and to get as many veterinarians in the field. But there's massive burnout due to for students high student debt, not being able to work the long hours, maybe getting bullied by clients. This is something that happens that people don't realize. And these young veterinarians are deciding not to be in the field. The pandemic caused so many people to rethink their life and maybe chase a different dream. So not only the veterinarians, but if you lose technicians or ACAs or receptionists.

[Host Jay]: Animal care assistants, I mean, God forbid now the veterinarian has to draw blood. You do not want the veterinarian drawing blood on your animal. And so it just drops the number of team members. And and it just affects the number of animals a veterinarian like myself is able to see. So it is, it is a higher demand because more people have pets, more people want to take care of their pets, but there's less people to do so.

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, it's pretty easy to see in major cities across Canada, about 50% of veterinarian clinics now are owned by corporations. Some of them change their name. So it's very, very clear, but a lot of them don't change the name because they want to kind of keep that community feel. So you may not even realize that your friendly neighborhood veterinarian has actually sold to a corporation during the pandemic for various economic reasons that I don't fully understand the the buying power of these corporations became so high that they were offering veterinarians, including myself, two to two and a half times higher than I would have ever imagined. I could have gotten my clinic. I seriously thought about it. I was in some need for some money to help take care of my mom. Me and my siblings wanted to help her out of a jam. Thank goodness I didn't pull the trigger. I just used the equity. I was able to use the equity in my business and get a loan from the bank. But the reality is, is I wouldn't have had the freedom that I, that I want and I love. Some people say I don't get along with authority as well. And that may be why I own a clinic. But, you know, I do a lot of volunteer travel. I'm going to Jamaica next month. I was in Jamaica a couple of months ago after the hurricane. I've traveled all around the world. My clinic pays for it. I pay for it through my clinic. There's no way a private equity firm, which is who owns these corporations? Berkshire is a big one. They're not going to approve me spending $20,000 to go help animals in another country. So I like that freedom. I like the freedom to be able to offer discounts if I need to, to maybe avoid those animals being surrendered to Charmaine and her facilities. So it just gives me some freedom. And I feel that the service and the care is better.

[Host Jay]: Alright, let's change gears a little bit. I want to talk about veterinary clinics. We've heard that more of these offices are being bought up by corporations. We know your office is an independent. You own it. There's one other veterinarian who works in your clinic. Do we know if more of these offices are being bought up by corporations?

[Dr. Cliff Redford]: Yeah, it's pretty easy to see in major cities across Canada, about 50% of veterinarian clinics now are owned by corporations. Some of them change their name. So it's very, very clear, but a lot of them don't change the name because they want to kind of keep that community feel. So you may not even realize that your friendly neighborhood veterinarian has actually sold to a corporation during the pandemic for various economic reasons that I don't fully understand the the buying power of these corporations became so high that they were offering veterinarians, including myself, two to two and a half times higher than I would have ever imagined. I could have gotten my clinic. I seriously thought about it. I was in some need for some money to help take care of my mom. Me and my siblings wanted to help her out of a jam. Thank goodness I didn't pull the trigger. I just used the equity. I was able to use the equity in my business and get a loan from the bank. But the reality is, is I wouldn't have had the freedom that I, that I want and I love. Some people say I don't get along with authority as well. And that may be why I own a clinic. But, you know, I do a lot of volunteer travel. I'm going to Jamaica next month. I was in Jamaica a couple of months ago after the hurricane. I've traveled all around the world. My clinic pays for it. I pay for it through my clinic. There's no way a private equity firm, which is who owns these corporations? Berkshire is a big one. They're not going to approve me spending $20,000 to go help animals in another country. So I like that freedom. I like the freedom to be able to offer discounts if I need to, to maybe avoid those animals being surrendered to Charmaine and her facilities. So it just gives me some freedom. And I feel that the service and the care is better.

[Host Jay]: Let's switch to cats because we've spent a lot of time on dogs. I'm a dog person. Well, but I also had cats anyway. So ancient Egypt was a very interesting kind of cognitive dissonance culture when it came to cats. So cats were definitely pampered. There are wonderful paintings of a cat underneath the dining room table eating a whole fish, and you can see the feet of his or her mistress, you know, sitting there. So there was that. The problem was they became so popular that there were at least two Egyptian gods with cats heads. They were sort of cats personified. Now, when you have gods, you want to give offerings to them. And the perfect offering turned out to be mummified cats. And so it wasn't apparently just a case of, oh, the cat died, let's mummify it and give it to God. Cats were raised for that. And there was this amazing discovery in the late 1890s where a farmer was ploughing a field in Egypt and started to uncover millions of mummified cat millions. Then it got actually pretty disgusting because the wind started blowing these remnants.

[Host Jay]: Gas around, and the stench was unbelievable. But many of these mummified cats had had their necks broken at like 1 or 2 months old. And so it was like the ancient Egyptian cat version of a puppy mill, and they were creating them solely to sell them at the market. Some of this is hypothetical, but it makes sense. And you'd buy a cat mummy and you'd give it to the god. So both good and bad, from the cat's point of view.

[Host Jay]: I want to talk science. Let's talk chemistry. When it comes to interacting with a dog or a cat, what happens to our bodies?

[Jay (Host)]: So the best known example of what happens is the hormone oxytocin, which is well known to facilitate bonding between a mother and her baby, is also well known. Now that your dog, if you stare into your dog's eyes, dog's oxytocin will rise. The human's oxytocin will rise. More recently, it's been shown that cats the same. Maybe not to the same degree because I know you're a cat owner, and I know that you know that they have an independent streak that dogs do not have. That's true. But if you look into the eyes of a wolf, there's no oxytocin response at all. So that's something. And you see it's you. You've got at least okay, oldest dog is 14,000. Let's say it started 20,000 years ago, 20,000 years of co-evolution of humans and dogs. I mean, it would be shocking if there hadn't been changes. And there's been really good evidence. There was a great set of experiments done in the Soviet Union and then Russia on Silver Foxes. This guy Belyayev had a colony of them. He'd only let the most approachable ones mate every year, 10% in ten generations. He had foxes that had come up and lick your hand and allow themselves to be petted, and they started to look different. They started to look like their ears used to be like this. Their colors changed the way they held. Their tail changed. They started to look like dogs. And yet they weren't being selected for any of those appearance things. They were being selected for tameness.

[Host Jay]: 97% of Americans. Let me make sure I got this right. Treat their pets like family members. Many people say.

[Host Jay]: They say that they do.

[Host Jay]: Many will say that they treat them like their children. Yeah. Why?

[Host Jay]: Because they're messed up. I look, I mean, you know, anybody that owns a pet feels that very strong, compassionate relationship with the pet. And, you know, I think that's actually kind of extraordinary. I mean, I love my dog. I wouldn't discard my dog, but my wife would be off if I said, yeah, he's pretty much the same. So I'm not going to say that. But that study or a study very much like that started asking further questions like, well, how much? How much is it a family member? And I can't remember the exact numbers, but they range from 80%. I'll try and do it in order 80% down to about 60%. 80% would change their job if it interfered with keeping that pet. 70% would move, 70% would change roommates 62%. And I do remember that number would change their relationship. Okay, so that's ridiculous.

[Host Jay]: I don't think my parents would do any of those things for me. And I am their child. Jay, I've got one more question. It's another dark one. It's about death. We know that we will outlive our pets, yet we continue to devote so much to them. Why?

[Jay (Host)]: I don't want to get off on a tangent again, but. I think it's just the extent of the relationship. So that and those animals that you think have become your companion and you really think you understand and they, they do things that you know, they're going to do and they, they know you. It is a relationship. It's not, I don't think, equal to a human relationship, family relationship, but it's a relationship nonetheless. And I think animals that like, if your goldfish dies, well, it's unfortunate, but you probably just, you know, some people flush them down the toilet and that's it. Scientists are always interested in is it possible to better do a better job of matching a human with a pet? So if the human has certain personality characteristics and the dog or cat does, you know, maybe that's a bad match. Empathy sounds like a great quality to have, but the human with the most empathy is going to suffer with that pet, especially when it dies. And so, you know, it's there's always two sides to that coin.

[Host Jay]: Jay, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. We can talk for hours. I'm pretty sure.

[Host Jay]: We will could. Oh, sorry.

[Host Jay]: No, that's all right. Are you guys are still here? Oh. Didn't know.♪ I'm Jeyan. Thanks for watching The Rundown. We'd love to know what you think. So send us your suggestions and feedback at TVO.org/rundownfeedback or as always, you can leave us a comment on YouTube. Until then, I will see you tomorrow.♪