序言：人质协议与加沙之殇

From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams and this is The Daily. Hamas is expected to release the remaining hostages by Monday. Israel will also free hundreds of Palestinian prisoners and detainees. Over the past few days, the world has seen dramatic scenes unfold from Israel and Gaza. In Gaza, thousands of Palestinians are returning to their homes and their neighborhoods, and they're seeing firsthand the devastation that two years of war has brought.

我是《纽约时报》的蕾切尔·艾布拉姆斯，这里是《每日》。哈马斯（Hamas: 巴勒斯坦伊斯兰抵抗运动，控制加沙地带的军事政治组织）预计将在周一释放剩余人质。以色列也将释放数百名巴勒斯坦囚犯和被拘留者。在过去几天里，世界目睹了以色列和加沙地带发生的戏剧性一幕。在加沙，成千上万的巴勒斯坦人正返回他们的家园和社区，亲眼目睹了两年战争所带来的毁灭。

As international journalists continue to wait for access to the strip, we've also been watching Israel as the country prepares for the return of the remaining hostages taken in the October 7th attack (10月7日袭击: 2023年10月7日哈马斯对以色列发动的袭击). Today I talk with families of hostages and other Israelis in what's become known as Hostage Square (人质广场: 位于特拉维夫，是为呼吁释放人质而设立的集会点和纪念地) in Tel Aviv about this long-anticipated moment and also with my colleague Isabel Kersner about why the hostages have been so pivotal in the efforts to end the war. It's Monday, October 13th.

当国际记者仍在等待进入加沙地带的许可时，我们也一直在关注以色列，这个国家正准备迎接在10月7日袭击中被劫持的剩余人质的归来。今天，我在特拉维夫被称为“人质广场”的地方与人质家属和其他以色列人交谈，讨论这个期待已久的时刻；我还与我的同事伊莎贝尔·克什纳（Isabel Kersner）讨论了为什么人质在结束战争的努力中如此关键。今天是10月13日，星期一。

抵达以色列：人质广场的氛围

Ladies and gentlemen, we welcome you to Vanura International Airport (瓦努拉国际机场: 虚构名称，此处指代以色列特拉维夫的本古里安机场) here in Tel Aviv, and our arrival time is approximately 9. As the ceasefire took effect in Gaza, I flew to Israel with Daily producer Claire Tennisceter to ask people how they're feeling and what they're thinking. We just got off the plane. We haven't even been walking maybe five minutes, and all along this very brightly lit hallway are pictures of the hostages.

女士们先生们，欢迎您抵达特拉维夫的瓦努拉国际机场，预计抵达时间是9点左右。随着加沙地带停火生效，我与《每日》制作人克莱尔·坦尼斯塞特（Claire Tennisceter）飞往以色列，询问人们的感受和想法。我们刚下飞机，走了不到五分钟，就看到这条灯火通明的走廊两旁挂满了人质的照片。

And within minutes of arriving, we started seeing reminder after reminder of the remaining hostages in Gaza. They list the ages of the hostages on some of these posters, and some of them are crossed out with new ages as they've, I guess, gotten older. This guy, 34, crossed out, 35, crossed out, now it says 36. So, as soon as we dropped off our luggage, we went straight to what's become the epicenter of the push to return the hostages to Israel, a place known as Hostage Square.

抵达后几分钟内，我们便不断看到加沙地带剩余人质的提醒。有些海报上列出了人质的年龄，其中一些被划掉并写上了新的年龄，我想是因为他们又长了一岁。这个人，34岁被划掉，35岁被划掉，现在写着36岁。所以，我们一放下行李，就直接去了那个已成为推动人质返回以色列的中心——被称为“人质广场”的地方。

It's a concrete public plaza between an art museum and a public library, and it's across the street from the Israeli military's headquarters. And in the weeks and months following October 7th, this place developed into a sort of living, interactive memorial to the hostages that were taken on that day.

它是一个位于艺术博物馆和公共图书馆之间的混凝土公共广场，与以色列军事总部隔街相望。在10月7日之后的几周和几个月里，这里逐渐发展成一个活生生、互动式的人质纪念地。

So, this is actually like a little synagogue (犹太会堂: 犹太教徒举行宗教仪式和学习的场所). There are big white canvas tents. Some of them are for shade. Some of them are sort of information booths, the tent of prayer and good deeds. There are t-shirts, hats, flags, and there are little pop-up stores selling t-shirts and books and pins, the yellow ribbons, and the whole space has become a kind of remembrance area.

所以，这实际上像一个小型犹太会堂。那里有巨大的白色帆布帐篷。有些用于遮阳，有些是信息亭，还有“祈祷和善行之帐”。有T恤、帽子、旗帜，还有出售T恤、书籍和徽章、黄丝带的小型快闪店，整个空间都变成了一个纪念区。

Can you tell us what you're doing?

你能告诉我们你在做什么吗？

I write a message for the hostages.

我正在为人质写一条信息。

Every square inch of this place seems like it has a photo of a hostage or a message for them or some kind of memento. And there are other things that feel very specific to this place and to this war. There's a piano that anybody can come up and play because one hostage loved to play the piano.

这个地方的每一寸似乎都贴着人质的照片，或写着给他们的信息，或某种纪念品。还有一些非常独特、与这个地方和这场战争紧密相关的事物。那里有一架钢琴，任何人都可以上去弹奏，因为有一名人质热爱弹钢琴。

Can you describe what we're looking at?

你能描述一下我们正在看什么吗？

It's the remaking of the tunnel.

这是地道的重现。

And there's even a kind of an interactive, artistic replica of a Hamas tunnel (哈马斯地道: 哈马斯在加沙地带修建的用于军事目的的地下隧道网络) where the hostages are believed to be held. I remember the tunnel from the last time I was in Israel over the summer when it felt so different. There was no hostage deal in sight. The mood was somber and despondent, angry. But now coming back, we're very, very, very happy. This war is coming to an end. The mood was optimistic and people were excited.

甚至还有一个哈马斯地道的互动艺术复制品，据信人质曾被关押在那里。我记得夏天上次去以色列时也看到了地道，那时感觉非常不同。当时看不到任何解救人质的协议。气氛是阴沉、沮丧和愤怒的。但现在回来，我们非常、非常、非常高兴。这场战争即将结束。气氛乐观，人们都很兴奋。

We're so happy. So we celebrate. So we are offering a free cake for everyone.

我们太高兴了。所以我们庆祝。我们为大家提供免费蛋糕。

Free cake.

免费蛋糕。

Yeah.

是的。

The other remarkable difference: we really have to thank America for the deal, especially Donald Trump, was that there were outpours of gratitude for President Trump and his role in brokering the hostage deal.

另一个显著的不同是：我们真的要感谢美国促成这项协议，尤其是唐纳德·特朗普，人们对特朗普总统及其在促成人质协议中的作用表达了极大的感激。

Can you tell me what your sign says?

你能告诉我你的牌子上写了什么吗？

Thank you, President Trump, because we want him to know that we are thanking him from the bottom of our hearts.

谢谢你，特朗普总统，因为我们想让他知道我们发自内心地感谢他。

The square is where the families of the hostages have come since the beginning of the war, demanding that the military and the government bring their loved ones home. And it's also where thousands of supporters and protesters have come to weekly rallies to show solidarity and support for those families. And so, after we spent some time taking in the scene, we asked a few family members to talk to us about how they were feeling just hours before the final hostages were supposed to come home.

自战争开始以来，人质家属就一直来到这个广场，要求军方和政府将他们的亲人带回家。成千上万的支持者和抗议者也每周来此集会，声援和支持这些家庭。所以，在我们花了一些时间感受现场气氛后，我们请了几位家庭成员与我们谈谈，在最后一批人质即将回家前几个小时，他们的感受如何。

莫沙·利维：等待亲人归来

Tell us who you are and why you're here today.

请告诉我们你是谁，以及你今天为什么在这里。

Mosha: I'm the brother-in-law of [Omry], held hostage for two years now. I'm here. We met Mosha Levie in the lobby of the library along the square where families of hostages sometimes go to get away from the crowds, and it was very important for the family.

莫沙：我是（奥姆里）的姐夫，他已经被扣为人质两年了。我在这里。我们在广场旁图书馆的大厅里见到了莫沙·利维，那里是人质家属有时为了避开人群而去的地方，这对这个家庭来说非常重要。

Mosha was wearing a T-shirt with a picture of his brother-in-law Omry holding up one of his two young daughters in the air.

莫沙穿着一件T恤，上面印着他姐夫奥姆里（Omry）高高举起两个小女儿中一个的照片。

Mosha: Omri has two young daughters. They were held captive themselves on that day with my sister, luckily rescued, and hoping that this will end. I just arrived yesterday with my sister Lishai from D.C. That's where we got the good news, and we rushed back here, and I'm very excited to finally conclude this chapter.

莫沙：奥姆里有两个年幼的女儿。她们在那天和我的姐姐一起被俘，幸好被救了出来，我们希望能结束这一切。我昨天刚和我的姐姐丽莎（Lishai）从华盛顿特区赶回来。我们在那里得到了好消息，然后就急忙赶回这里，我非常激动能最终结束这一章。

When you think of Omri, do you have an image that comes to mind?

当你想到奥姆里时，脑海中会浮现出什么画面？

Mosha: Omri for me is always going to be the smiling man who made my sister happy after difficult years. It's the love of her life. That's what I have in my mind. The smiling face, the bashful eyes, and the heart—this big heart that entered our family.

莫沙：对我来说，奥姆里永远是那个笑容满面、在经历艰难岁月后让我姐姐幸福的男人。他是她生命中的挚爱。这就是我脑海中的形象。那张笑脸，那双腼腆的眼睛，还有那颗融入我们家庭的宽广的心。

If you had to guess, what do you think Omri's the first thing Omri will want to do is when he gets home?

如果你必须猜测，你认为奥姆里回家后最想做的第一件事是什么？

Mosha: No, I don't want to suppose what he wants to do. He didn't have a choice for two years. And ever since we received the news, our focus is now on preparations—from small things like preparing a bag to a bag for Omri, because when he arrives, he would want to see, wants to wear something that is not what terrorists forced him to wear.

莫沙：不，我不想猜测他想做什么。他两年都没有选择权。自从我们收到消息以来，我们的重心现在放在准备工作上——从准备一个包到为奥姆里准备一个包，因为当他回来时，他会想看到、想穿一些不是恐怖分子强迫他穿的东西。

Have you thought about the first thing you want to say to him?

你有没有想过你最想对他说的话是什么？

Mosha: Just a hug.

莫沙：只是一个拥抱。

Yeah.

是的。

Mosha: And primarily, I just want to see my sister and nieces hug him. I'm not important for that. I hope they'll have that moment, and I hope it will be the most beautiful moment in their life.

莫沙：而且，我主要只想看到我的姐姐和侄女们拥抱他。我在这件事上不重要。我希望她们能拥有那个时刻，我希望那将是她们生命中最美好的时刻。

Family members like Mosha are in so many different situations. Some of them are waiting for hostages they know are alive. For others, they don't know. They're uncertain. And it's unclear how much hope they should have. But still, they hope to be on the cusp of some kind of ending.

像莫沙这样的家庭成员正处于许多不同的境地。他们中的一些人在等待他们知道还活着的人质。对于另一些人，他们不知道。他们不确定。而且不清楚他们应该抱有多大的希望。但即便如此，他们仍然希望能够迎来某种结局。

鲁比·亨：失踪的儿子与未竟的告别

Thank you so much for what you're doing for us.

非常感谢你为我们所做的一切。

It's a difficult day. Another person we met at Hostage Square who had a family member go missing during the war was Ruby Hen.

这是艰难的一天。我们在人质广场遇到的另一个人是鲁比·亨（Ruby Hen），他有一位家人在战争中失踪了。

Ruby: I'm a New Yorker, grew up in Flatbush, and I met my wife in Israel, and we decided to have a home here.

鲁比：我是个纽约人，在弗拉特布什（Flatbush）长大，我在以色列遇到了我的妻子，然后我们决定在这里安家。

Ruby and his wife raised their three kids in Israel but would frequently travel to the U.S.

鲁比和他的妻子在以色列抚养了三个孩子，但他们经常往返美国。

Ruby: My eldest inherited my love for the New York Knicks, and he ties being the middle son, the more rebellious one. He decided to be a Celtics fan. For the love of God, I don't know how that happened, but I feel that I failed as a father. And when the war broke out, one of his sons, the one with the rebellious streak, was performing his mandatory military service. And he, unlike his elder sibling that went to a technology unit, he of course decided to do something totally different, and he wanted to go into combat, and he joined the tanks division.

鲁比：我的大儿子继承了我对纽约尼克斯队的热爱，而他作为中间的儿子，更叛逆，他决定成为凯尔特人队的球迷。天哪，我不知道这怎么发生的，但我感觉我作为父亲失败了。战争爆发时，他叛逆的儿子之一正在服义务兵役。与他去了技术部队的哥哥不同，他当然决定做一些完全不同的事情，他想去作战，他加入了坦克部队。

And he on that fatal October 7th was on the border of Gaza at a base called Nahal Oz, which is kind of in the middle of the Gaza Strip, and they were ambushed. They got hit by a few anti-tank missiles, and the tank was neutralized, and we were totally in the dark. Monday, we went to the missing people command center that was put together by the police, and they said, "Well, he's missing in action," meaning no one is able to identify him physically standing next to him. He wasn't in one of the hospitals. And a few days after, we got notified that he is indeed a hostage in Gaza. And we're sitting there, and, "Okay, do you have anything else to tell? Where is he now?" "Oh, we don't know." "Okay, then we're doing..."

在那个致命的10月7日，他在加沙边境的一个叫纳哈尔奥兹（Nahal Oz）的基地，这个基地大致位于加沙地带中部，他们遭到了伏击。他们的坦克被几枚反坦克导弹击中，坦克失去了战斗力，我们对此一无所知。周一，我们去了由警方设立的失踪人员指挥中心，他们说：“嗯，他失踪了。”这意味着没有人能在他身边亲自确认他的身份。他也不在任何一家医院。几天后，我们接到通知，他确实是加沙地带的人质。我们坐在那里，然后问：“好吧，你们还有什么要告诉我们的吗？他现在在哪里？”“哦，我们不知道。”“好吧，那我们正在做……”

So, they waited, hoping for a positive sign, desperate for information on how their son was doing. In March 24, we got another knock on the door. Then a few months later, Ruby got a very different message when the IDF (Israel Defense Forces: 以色列国防军) concluded, based on intelligence, that he most likely did not survive on October 7th. And we asked, "Okay, where's the physical evidence?" He says, "Oh, we don't have that." So we understand, we looked at the intelligence. I understand that most likely Tai is not one of the 20, but he is no less of a hostage.

所以，他们等待着，希望能有一个积极的信号，渴望知道他们儿子的情况。24年3月，我们又接到了敲门声。几个月后，鲁比接到了一个非常不同的消息，当时以色列国防军根据情报得出结论，他很可能在10月7日没有幸存。我们问：“好吧，那物理证据在哪里？”他说：“哦，我们没有。”所以我们理解，我查看了情报。我明白泰伊（Tai）很可能不是那20人中的一个，但他同样是人质。

You know, there's the missing holidays, Thanksgiving to Hanukkah to Easter, and just, you know, think of a family dinner, holiday dinner with a chair that is empty. Going back to the Celtics, you know, now it's the beginning of basketball season. We will be sitting on the couch, thinking about and jabbing one another who has a better chance of winning the division title. And we will play NBA 2K (NBA 2K: 一款流行的篮球电子游戏系列), and he will play with the Celtics, and play with the Knicks. He would of course beat me because he's much better at 2K than I am, and he's missing.

你知道，还有那些失落的节日，从感恩节到光明节再到复活节，还有，你知道，想象一下家庭晚餐，节日晚餐上，有一把空着的椅子。回到凯尔特人队，你知道，现在是篮球赛季的开始。我们会坐在沙发上，互相打趣谁更有机会赢得分区冠军。我们会玩NBA 2K，他会用凯尔特人队，我会用尼克斯队。他当然会赢我，因为他玩2K比我强得多，而他现在失踪了。

It is just as important to us to get Itai back, and then we'll deal with the two options that we have: either being able to hug him, or it means that one chapter ended, and we need to start another chapter of our family. But we need to have that ending of this chapter.

对我们来说，让伊泰（Itai）回来同样重要，然后我们将处理我们拥有的两种选择：要么能够拥抱他，要么意味着一个篇章的结束，我们需要开启我们家庭的另一个篇章。但我们需要让这个篇章有个结局。

Thank you so much.

非常感谢。

基特·帕利·卡特：破碎的家庭与未愈的伤痛

Some of the family members of the square have the answers that people like Ruby are dreading. They know that their relatives are dead, but they come here for different reasons. They come to support other people. They come out of a sense of solidarity. They come because they understand what it means to wait for these kinds of answers and to finally get them.

广场上的一些家庭成员已经得到了像鲁比这样的人所恐惧的答案。他们知道自己的亲人已经去世，但他们来到这里有不同的原因。他们来支持其他人。他们出于团结感而来。他们来是因为他们理解等待这些答案的意义，并最终得到这些答案的意义。

Can you tell me to start just who you are and why you're here tonight?

你能先告诉我你是谁，以及今晚你为什么在这里吗？

Kit: Okay. So, my name is Kit Pali Kat. I'm the daughter of Ramy Katir, who was murdered on October 7th in Kibbutz Niro (尼罗基布兹: 以色列的一种集体社区，通常是农业社区). My mother, Khan Katir, was abducted from Kibbutz Niro, and my brother Elad was also kidnapped from Kibbutz Nero. My mom returned after 49 days in captivity in Gaza, and my brother Elad was murdered in captivity, and his body was retrieved to Israel on April 2024.

基特：好的。我叫基特·帕利·卡特（Kit Pali Kat）。我是拉米·卡蒂尔（Ramy Katir）的女儿，他于10月7日在尼罗基布兹被谋杀。我的母亲，汗·卡蒂尔（Khan Katir），从尼罗基布兹被绑架，我的哥哥埃拉德（Elad）也从尼罗基布兹被绑架。我妈妈在加沙被囚禁49天后返回，而我的哥哥埃拉德在囚禁中被谋杀，他的遗体于2024年4月被运回以色列。

When my mother came back, I remember when she was brought on a journey, and she looked up and she saw me and she saw my sister, and then I could see that she's looking about the missing faces. She couldn't see my father and she couldn't see my brother, and she asked me, "Where are they?" And I have to tell her on the first five minutes she's with us that my father, her husband, was shot to death, and that my brother, for me it was good news. I told her, "Mom, but you know, the good news is that he's kidnapped and he's alive." And it's crazy that even considered to be a good news, but for us, it was a good news.

我记得我妈妈回来的时候，她被带上旅程，她抬起头看到了我和我妹妹，然后我看到她在寻找那些失踪的面孔。她看不到我的父亲，也看不到我的哥哥，她问我：“他们去哪儿了？”在她和我们在一起的最初五分钟里，我不得不告诉她，我的父亲，她的丈夫，被枪杀了；而我的哥哥，对我来说，这是个好消息。我告诉她：“妈妈，你知道吗，好消息是他被绑架了，他还活着。”这听起来很疯狂，甚至会被认为是好消息，但对我们来说，确实是个好消息。

I remember when they told us that he's dead. So my mom, she was in the hospital at this at the time, and she told the officer that she wants her son, my brother, to be brought to her so she can kiss him goodbye. And then the officer was shocked, and he told her, "We can't bring him over. You can't kiss him goodbye because his body wasn't in a state that she could have done that." And it's awful because the sense of closure is not full because we don't get to have these normal phases of grief and goodbye.

我记得他们告诉我们他去世的时候。当时我妈妈在医院里，她告诉警官她希望把她的儿子，我的哥哥，带到她身边，这样她就能吻别他。然后警官震惊了，他告诉她：“我们不能把他带过来。你不能吻别他，因为他的遗体状况不允许她那样做。”这太糟糕了，因为那种终结感并不完整，因为我们无法经历这些正常的悲伤和告别阶段。

Meanwhile, Carme's mom was struggling more and more with her health, suffering from ailments related to her captivity. She steadily declined and passed away last year. And it's a huge difference between what I've been through with my father or my brother or with her because with her we have the opportunity and the privilege to say goodbye, to say how much we love her, to hold her hands for her not to feel alone for a second. And we didn't have that with my brother, and we didn't have that with my father. And this make this feeling of closure very different.

与此同时，卡梅（Carme）的妈妈的健康状况越来越差，饱受与被囚禁相关的疾病折磨。她的身体状况持续恶化，并于去年去世。这与我经历的父亲或哥哥的离世，以及她的离世有巨大的不同，因为与她在一起，我们有机会和荣幸说再见，表达我们有多爱她，握着她的手让她一秒钟都不觉得孤单。而我的哥哥和父亲，我们都没有这样的机会。这让这种终结的感觉非常不同。

The people here, the families. There are so many families who are anticipating having their loved ones returned. What does that feel like as somebody that also was in that position?

这里的人们，这些家庭。有如此多的家庭期待着他们的亲人回归。作为一个也曾处于那种境境的人，这是一种什么样的感受？

Kit: I'm struggling all the time for 736 days today. I'm fighting for the release of all hostages. This is my main goal in life. And of course, I'm so thrilled that it's finally happening. But of course, emotionally, it's so complicated because tomorrow people are going to hug their loved ones, and I'm not going to have this hug forever.

基特：今天是我挣扎的第736天。我一直在为所有被扣押人质的释放而奋斗。这是我人生的主要目标。当然，我非常激动这一切终于发生。但情绪上，这当然非常复杂，因为明天人们将拥抱他们的亲人，而我将永远无法得到这个拥抱。

How do you think the country has changed, and how much of that change is permanent, and how much will go away when the war is over?

你认为这个国家发生了怎样的变化？其中有多少是永久性的，又有多少会在战争结束后消失？

Kit: I feel that this war has been too much and too long and too devastating both for Israelis and for Palestinians, for Gazan people. I feel like the loss and the ruins both in Israel and in Gaza, it will take years and decades to rebuild something new. I'm not talking about the homes or the neighborhoods. I'm talking about the possibility of living one next to each other. And I feel like there is a crisis of trust or of confident between the Israeli people and its leadership. So I feel that in the end of the war, none of us is feeling more safe, and it's sad to say that.

基特：我觉得这场战争对以色列人和巴勒斯坦人，对加沙人民来说，都太沉重、太漫长、太具毁灭性了。我觉得以色列和加沙的损失和废墟，需要数年甚至数十年的时间才能重建新的东西。我说的不是房屋或社区。我指的是彼此相邻而居的可能性。我觉得以色列人民和其领导层之间存在信任或信心危机。所以我觉得，战争结束后，我们没有人感到更安全，说出来真是令人悲伤。

伊莎贝尔·克什纳：人质归来的更广泛意义

Coming up next, I speak with my colleague Isabelle Kersner on what the return of the hostages means more broadly for Israeli society and for the end of the war. We'll be right back.

接下来，我将与我的同事伊莎贝尔·克什纳（Isabelle Kersner）讨论人质回归对以色列社会和战争结束更广泛的意义。我们马上回来。

Isabelle, thanks so much for talking to us. We are speaking at this moment when there are enormous scenes unfolding not just where you and I are in Israel, but also in Gaza, where hundreds of thousands of people are going back to their homes and their neighborhoods, which have been largely destroyed, to try to figure out how to start rebuilding their lives. And international journalists are still waiting for access to Gaza, not allowed in there. In the meantime, I wanted to come to Israel where there was this seismic event happening, which is the return of the hostages. So just to start, can you remind us, who are the hostages as a whole?

伊莎贝尔，非常感谢你和我们交谈。我们现在谈论的时刻，不仅你我所在的以色列，甚至在加沙地带，都正在上演着巨大的场面。那里有数十万人返回他们几乎被摧毁的家园和社区，试图重新开始生活。国际记者仍在等待进入加沙的许可，不被允许进入。与此同时，我来到以色列，这里正在发生一场震动性的事件，那就是人质的回归。那么，首先你能提醒我们，人质总体上是哪些人吗？

Isabelle: Sure, Rachel. So the hostages were taken captive during the Hamas-led attack on Israel on October 7th, 2023. And at the time, about 250 people were taken captive and taken back to Gaza. They included many civilians, women, children, grandparents, and some soldiers. In the intervening two years of war, we've had in the past two brief temporary ceasefires where some hostages were exchanged for some Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails, and the women and children for the most part were returned. Some of the younger men who were considered to be in the most vulnerable states physically were returned. And what we're expecting is early Monday morning for the 20 live hostages to all be returned more or less at the same time. They're mainly men, mostly young men, mostly civilians, and a small number of soldiers. And then the remains of 26 more people who were either killed or died in captivity. Some are supposed to also be returned later in the day on Monday, but the authorities have been saying that it will be much harder to locate all the remains. Some might be buried in places that very few people know where they are, and so it could take much longer to return all of them.

伊莎贝尔：当然，蕾切尔。人质是在2023年10月7日哈马斯对以色列发动的袭击中被劫持的。当时，约有250人被俘并带回加沙。其中包括许多平民、妇女、儿童、祖父母和一些士兵。在过去两年的战争中，我们经历了两次短暂的临时停火，期间一些人质被交换回以色列监狱中的一些巴勒斯坦囚犯，大部分妇女和儿童都已返回。一些被认为身体状况最脆弱的年轻男性也已返回。我们预计在周一清晨，20名活着的被劫持人质将大致同时返回。他们主要是男性，多为年轻男性，大部分是平民，还有少数士兵。另外26名在囚禁中被杀或死亡的人的遗体，也预计在周一晚些时候归还，但当局表示，找到所有遗体将困难得多。有些可能埋在极少数人知道的地方，因此可能需要更长时间才能全部归还。

Can you remind us, Isabelle, how these hostage returns have worked in the past, just mechanically, and what is different about this time?

伊莎贝尔，你能提醒我们，过去这些人质的返回在操作上是如何进行的，以及这次有什么不同吗？

Isabelle: Of course. So in the past, what we've seen largely are these ceremonies where Hamas militants would kind of in a show of force build a stage and bring out some of the hostages in small groups surrounded by masked gunmen. Sometimes be made to wave to the crowd or to give little speeches. This time around, we understand that Hamas is supposed to not be holding these ceremonies. So, we might not see very much at the beginning, but the idea is they will be handed over to representatives of the Red Cross (红十字国际委员会: 一个国际人道主义组织，旨在保护战争和暴力受害者的生命和尊严) in Gaza. They will then be transported and handed over to Israeli military and will be brought over the border into an Israeli military base called Rahim (拉希姆: 以色列南部的一个军事基地，人质通常在此接受初步检查并与家人团聚), which is in southern Israel. And that's where they usually get their initial checks to see what their condition is and are reunited with close family members.

伊莎贝尔：当然。过去，我们主要看到的是这些仪式：哈马斯武装分子会搭建一个舞台，以示武力，然后将一些被蒙面枪手包围的人质小群体带出来。有时他们会被要求向人群挥手或发表简短的演讲。这次，我们了解到哈马斯不应该举行这些仪式。所以，一开始我们可能看不到太多，但其理念是，他们将被移交给加沙地带的红十字国际委员会代表。然后，他们将被运送并移交给以色列军方，并被带过边境进入以色列南部的一个名为拉希姆的军事基地。在那里，他们通常会接受初步检查，了解他们的身体状况，并与亲密的家人团聚。

And you know, you ask what's different this time. So much is different this time. I mean, for one thing, these hostages have been in captivity for two years, so nobody really knows what their condition is. We've seen some hostage videos released by Hamas over the months where some have appeared extremely emaciated and skeletal and very, very distressed. And it's very unclear what the condition will be of those coming out alive. And for the Palestinians too, the Israelis are releasing more than 200 Palestinian prisoners who were convicted of life terms for serious deadly attacks against Israelis, plus almost 2,000, about 1,700 plus detainees from Gaza who were detained by Israeli forces during the war and brought to Israel. So it's a very large landmark occasion on all sides.

你知道，你问这次有什么不同。这次有很多不同之处。我的意思是，首先，这些人质已经被囚禁了两年，所以没有人真正知道他们的状况如何。我们看到哈马斯在过去几个月里发布了一些人质视频，其中一些人看起来极度消瘦、骨瘦如柴，并且非常非常痛苦。那些活着出来的人的状况会如何，目前非常不清楚。对于巴勒斯坦人来说，以色列也正在释放200多名巴勒斯坦囚犯，他们因对以色列人发动严重的致命袭击而被判处无期徒刑，此外还有近2000名（约1700多名）在战争期间被以色列军队拘留并带到以色列的加沙被拘留者。所以，这对各方来说都是一个非常重要的里程碑事件。

One of our producers, Claire Tennis Getter, and I spent last night, Saturday night, at Hostage Square, where there have been weekly rallies in support of bringing the hostages home since the beginning of the war. And last night was one of, if not the biggest crowd that has ever been there, according to a bunch of different reports. Can you talk about the significance of the hostages to the war and to Israeli society and how that's changed since the start of all of this?

我们的一位制作人克莱尔·坦尼斯·盖特（Claire Tennis Getter）和我昨晚，也就是周六晚上，在人质广场度过。自战争开始以来，那里每周都会举行集会，支持将人质带回家。根据多方报道，昨晚是那里有史以来规模最大的一次集会。你能谈谈人质对这场战争和以色列社会的重要性，以及自这一切开始以来，这种重要性是如何变化的吗？

Isabelle: Well, there's an ethos in Israel that's largely been nurtured through the Israeli military, which is a conscription army. So, you know, most people in Israel, their children or their siblings, somebody they know, their neighbors will be serving or will have been serving in the military. And the ethos because it's a so-called people's army particularly has been that you never leave soldiers behind in the field. And there's been a feeling that's grown over the two years as these captives have languished longer and longer that the Israeli government had essentially abandoned these people and left them in the field. So the square has become a kind of fulcrum of anger and frustration as successive rounds of hostage talks collapsed and ceasefires collapsed and this war seemed to be turning into a forever war.

伊莎贝尔：嗯，以色列有一种民族精神，这种精神主要通过以色列军队培养起来，它是一支征兵制军队。所以，你知道，以色列的大多数人，他们的孩子或兄弟姐妹，他们认识的人，他们的邻居，都会或曾经在军队服役。这种精神，因为这是一支所谓的“人民军队”，特别强调绝不能让士兵留在战场上。在过去两年里，随着这些被俘人员被长时间地困住，一种感觉逐渐增强，那就是以色列政府实际上已经抛弃了这些人，将他们留在了战场上。因此，随着一轮又一轮的人质谈判和停火协议的破裂，这场战争似乎正在变成一场永无止境的战争，这个广场也成为了愤怒和沮丧的焦点。

And now of course, you know, you experienced a complete flip and switch in the atmosphere to actually seeing some light at the end of this and seeing the hostages about to come back and seeing this war end, which a majority of Israelis has been calling for. I mean, in every single opinion poll for months and months and months, you've had a majority cutting across political lines saying that they favored prioritizing a hostage deal and a return of the hostages over continuing the war.

现在当然，你知道，你经历了气氛的彻底转变，实际上看到了隧道尽头的光芒，看到了人质即将回归，看到了这场战争的结束，这也是大多数以色列人一直呼吁的。我的意思是，几个月来，每一次民意调查都显示，绝大多数人跨越政治界限，表示他们更倾向于优先达成一项人质协议并让人质回归，而不是继续战争。

I was really struck by how many people were carrying signs saying, "Thank you, Mr. President," with pictures of President Trump on them. There was one guy actually dressed as President Trump holding a sign that said Nobel Peace Prize (诺贝尔和平奖: 瑞典发明家阿尔弗雷德·诺贝尔设立的五个诺贝尔奖之一，授予为促进和平作出杰出贡献的人), like indicating he should get it, which obviously a lot of people have talked about how he wants to get the Nobel Peace Prize. And in the speeches that we heard, particularly in Steve Whit's speech, that's the Middle East envoy (中东特使: 负责处理中东地区外交事务的代表) for the Trump administration. Every time Witoff mentioned Trump, the crowd would go nuts and cheer and clap. And every time Witoff mentioned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, people would boo. And I wonder what you make of that.

我真的被很多人拿着写有“谢谢你，总统先生”的牌子，上面印着特朗普总统的照片所震惊。甚至有一个人打扮成特朗普总统的样子，举着一块写有“诺贝尔和平奖”的牌子，暗示他应该获得这个奖项，这显然很多人都谈论过他想获得诺贝尔和平奖的事情。在我们听到的演讲中，特别是在史蒂夫·惠特（Steve Whit）的演讲中，他是特朗普政府的中东特使。每次惠特提到特朗普，人群就会疯狂欢呼鼓掌。而每次惠特提到本雅明·内塔尼亚胡总理，人们就会发出嘘声。我想知道你对此有何看法。

Isabelle: Yeah, that was quite stunning to see actually, Rachel. I mean, the cheer that went up as Witoff and Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump walked through the crowd and took the podium, and the electrifying atmosphere, and yes, this massive gratitude and appreciation of the Trump administration's role and President Trump personally in getting this done. And then as you mentioned, this extended, prolonged booing that accompanied every time Wickoff mentioned Netanyahu's name, there's a lot of anger still against the government for Netanyahu's refusal to take responsibility personally for the failures, the intelligence failures, the policy failures that occurred on his watch. And I think that's what you were seeing last night in the square. And there was immediately afterward a lot of discussion on the panel shows on TV about whether it was appropriate or not, but it was just a very genuine, authentic, spontaneous response, and nobody had planned it or rehearsed it. And I think it was just very reflective of how people have felt here.

伊莎贝尔：是的，蕾切尔，那确实令人震惊。我的意思是，当惠特夫（Witoff）、贾里德·库什纳（Jared Kushner）和伊万卡·特朗普（Ivanka Trump）走过人群登上讲台时，爆发出的欢呼声，以及那种令人振奋的气氛，是的，人们对特朗普政府和特朗普总统本人在促成此事中的作用表达了巨大的感激和赞赏。然后就像你提到的，每次惠特夫提到内塔尼亚胡的名字时，都伴随着长时间的嘘声，人们对政府仍然非常愤怒，因为内塔尼亚胡拒绝亲自为在他任期内发生的失败，包括情报失误和政策失误负责。我认为这就是你昨晚在广场上看到的情景。事后，电视上的专题节目立即对此进行了大量讨论，关于这种反应是否恰当，但这只是一种非常真诚、真实、自发的反应，没有人计划或排练过。我认为这非常真实地反映了这里人们的感受。

What are we watching for now? What are people expecting to happen next?

我们现在应该关注什么？人们期待接下来会发生什么？

Isabelle: Yeah, that's the golden question. Nobody really knows this deal. It was very vague, other than the first phase of it, which is the hostage for Palestinian prisoner exchange and an increase in aid going into the Gaza Strip, as well as an Israeli pullback. There's already been an initial pullback of forces to a defense line within the Gaza Strip. Beyond that, there are a lot of open questions which do raise concerns about the fragility of such a deal. And I think that's why we're also seeing on Monday after President Trump makes this sort of lightning four-hour visit to Israel, he's then going on to Charal Shik in Egypt for what he's calling a peace summit led by himself and the president of Egypt, where they've invited world leaders and the Arab partners to sort of buttress and support this deal.

伊莎贝尔：是的，这是一个关键问题。没有人真正了解这项协议。除了第一阶段（即人质换巴勒斯坦囚犯、增加对加沙地带的援助以及以色列撤军）之外，协议内容非常模糊。目前，以色列军队已初步撤回到加沙地带内部的一条防线。除此之外，还有许多悬而未决的问题，这确实引发了对该协议脆弱性的担忧。我认为这就是为什么我们看到周一特朗普总统对以色列进行了四小时的闪电访问后，他将前往埃及的沙姆沙伊赫（Sharm El Sheikh），参加他所说的由他和埃及总统共同领导的和平峰会，他们邀请了世界各国领导人和阿拉伯伙伴，以支持和巩固这项协议。

And I think, you know, the idea is just to create as strong a coalition as possible and as broad as possible of countries who are just going to try and make sure that this holds. I mean, whatever happens next, clearly people in Israel at least are celebrating the end of the war. It feels to them like we have reached the end of the war with this first phase. Does that seem fair to you?

我认为，你知道，这个想法就是建立一个尽可能强大和广泛的国家联盟，他们将努力确保这项协议得以维持。我的意思是，无论接下来发生什么，至少以色列人民正在庆祝战争的结束。对他们来说，感觉我们已经通过第一阶段达到了战争的终点。你觉得这公平吗？

Isabelle: Yes. I think Israelis for the large part are relieved after two years. There's little appetite in Israel to continue fighting. It's a very Sisyphean task really. You're in an insurgency situation, and it just seemed to be a kind of stalemate. But does it mean peace? Does it mean the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been resolved? Absolutely not. I mean, the fundamental issues remain, but it certainly brings this two-year chapter to some kind of close, however unclear the future looks.

伊莎贝尔：是的。我想大部分以色列人在两年后都松了一口气。以色列继续战斗的意愿很低。这真是一项非常徒劳的任务。你处于一场叛乱的局面中，这似乎只是一种僵局。但这是否意味着和平？这是否意味着以色列-巴勒斯坦冲突已经解决？绝对不是。我的意思是，根本问题依然存在，但这无疑将这两年的篇章带向某种结束，无论未来看起来多么不明朗。

Isabelle, thank you so much.

伊莎贝尔，非常感谢你。

Thank you.

谢谢你。

尾声：复杂的情感与未完待续的故事

Early Monday morning, thousands of people had already gathered in Hostage Square.

周一清晨，数千人已经聚集在人质广场。

So happy right now. I stayed awake all night just to see it. Everything. It's amazing that everybody's coming back.

现在太高兴了。我熬夜就为了看这一刻。一切都太棒了，所有人都回来了。

And news broke that the first group of hostages had returned to Israel, starting an exchange for Palestinian prisoners and detainees that was expected to begin later in the day.

消息传出，第一批人质已返回以色列，这标志着原定于当天晚些时候开始的巴勒斯坦囚犯和被拘留者交换行动正式启动。

It's a great feeling. Great feeling. We waited so long for this. It's wonderful, and thanks to Trump.

这感觉太棒了。太棒了。我们等了这么久。太棒了，感谢特朗普。

The crowd packed the square, waiting for updates on the remaining hostages who were expected to return home to a changed country.

人群挤满了广场，等待着关于剩余人质的最新消息，他们预计将回到一个已经改变了的国家。

My emotions are very mixed. We are happy, but we are also concerned, sad. We have now to start to work on other things, and the story is not over.

我的心情非常复杂。我们很高兴，但也担忧，悲伤。我们现在必须开始处理其他事情，故事还没有结束。

Here's what else you need to know today. Over the weekend, President Trump said that he would pay members of the military during the government shutdown, tapping into about $8 billion of Pentagon funds (五角大楼资金: 美国国防部的预算资金). It would cover the next pay period for more than a million active duty service members. But it's not clear how long the administration could pay troops if Congress and the White House can't reach a spending deal. Meanwhile, the Smithsonian Institution (史密森尼学会: 负责管理美国国家博物馆群和研究中心的机构) said on Sunday that the shutdown has forced it to close its 21 museums and the National Zoo (国家动物园: 史密森尼学会下属的美国国家动物园).

以下是您今天还需要了解的其他新闻。周末，特朗普总统表示，在政府关门期间，他将动用约80亿美元的五角大楼资金支付军人薪水。这笔资金将覆盖一百多万现役军人的下一个发薪期。但如果国会和白宫无法达成支出协议，政府能支付军队多久尚不清楚。与此同时，史密森尼学会周日表示，政府关门已迫使其关闭旗下21家博物馆和国家动物园。 That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.

《每日》到此结束。我是蕾切尔·艾布拉姆斯。明天再见。