Anna Martin: From the New York Times. I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love and today I'm talking to Eddie Huang. Eddie kind of does it all. He's a chef. He makes movies. He's the author of the memoir Fresh Off the Boat, which became a hit TV show. And in Fresh Off the Boat, Eddie talks about what it was like for him growing up in America with parents who were Taiwanese Chinese immigrants. It was really hard. Eddie was bullied a lot. He felt lonely, and he responded by fighting back. He became a tough kid no one could pick on. And that tough kid grew up into a tough man. Now Eddie has a new book out. It's a novel, but the main character sounds a lot like Eddie. He's a middle-aged guy, Asian-American, struggling to figure out the kind of man he wants to be, especially when it comes to his relationships with women, which the guy in the book is really, really bad at. Eddie's had to work through a lot of this stuff himself and his own relationships. And I wanted to know, when you've tried so hard for so many years to prove to everyone that you're not weak and you're not vulnerable, how do you let someone in? Like what happens when the tough guy meets someone he really likes? Someone he might even love. Eddie Huang, welcome to Modern Love.

Eddie Huang: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this.

Anna Martin: We're excited to have you. Eddie, I want to start this conversation by asking about something I think has been important to you for a long time. Masculinity and Asianness. On that note, back in 2017, you wrote an op-ed for the New York Times about these ideas. I'd love for you to read a part of it. Does that sound okay?

Eddie Huang: Yeah, sure.

Anna Martin: Okay.

Eddie Huang: Every Asian-American man knows what the dominant culture has to say about us. We count good. We bow well. We're technologically proficient. We're naturally subordinate. Our male anatomy is the size of a thumb drive and could never in a thousand millenniums be a threat to steal your girl. As a kid, you believe the things you're told about yourself. Yet, as I grew, I started to see things unravel. I wasn't subordinate. I didn't count good. And outside downloading GIFs of Daisy Fuentes, I was terrible with computers. Over time, I began to find solidarity with my singularity indifference. Yet, the one joke that still hurts, the one stereotype that I still mistakenly believe at the most inopportune bedroom moments is that women don't want Asian men. We just don't have the ingredients.

Anna Martin: I mean, 2017, almost 10 years ago, but as you read that, I don't know what comes up for you.

Eddie Huang: You know. Funny, I've not seen this since 2017 and like my right shoulder just started twitching when I was reading it.

Anna Martin: Huh? Why?

Eddie Huang: And I think that I've gotten past a lot of this. I don't think about it anymore. And like when people tell jokes about like Asian penis size, like I'll laugh, it's fine. I'm over it, you know?

Anna Martin: But I think just being transported back to that place.

Eddie Huang: Sure.

Anna Martin: When I was still very bummed out about it.

Eddie Huang: You just remember and you know, you start to twitch a little bit. It's uh, you know, as a 44 year old man, you don't love admitting that these things really hurt your feelings, but they did.

Anna Martin: Huh. I want to go there to that place of...

Eddie Huang: Let's hurt my feelings.

Anna Martin: Well, I think we're going to loop around because there's a beautiful love story, you know, but I want to go there because I'm really interested in your openness to talk about this and I want to sort of take us back or take you back to the time when you were sort of actively hurting about this, right? Can you tell me, however far back you know this question takes you, do you remember how you first realized that this was how Asian men were seen by some people?

Eddie Huang: Well, from a very very young age, race was just like an interesting thing, you know, like I was on my block when I was six. I visibly remember I was the only full 100% Asian person on the block.

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Eddie Huang: There was one girl who was half black and half Chinese. We really got along. The other four to five kids on the block were all white kids and they would just like pick on us. And I just from a very early age I just understood. I was like, "All right, we're weird. We're outside. You're inside and that's just how this is."

Anna Martin: Can you remember a specific moment where you realized I'm on the outside of something?

Eddie Huang: Yeah, I mean like at the age of six, I already knew, but physically it started to happen around fourth grade and I was around 11 years old. It was my birthday. And after Little League, there were like a couple white kids and they knew it was my birthday. They knew my parents were late picking me up. I was there by myself and they just ran around me in a circle throwing sunflower seeds and whatnot saying ching chong, Eddie Wong, sitting on a gong and like peeling their eyes back. And I just ate it.

Anna Martin: "I just ate it." And I just sat there.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. I just sat there and I ate it and it felt terrible. And yeah, it just that stuff's the worst.

Anna Martin: Yeah. I mean, I know I was like, we're going to go there, but it just I mean, even hearing it, I want to like I want to reach out to that 11-year-old and be like, damn, it's going to get better. You're going to own BaoHaus, you know, like but in that moment, did you contemplate being like shut up or was that not I know this is one instance, but did you consider saying something or was it more like okay, I'm just going to get through this?

Eddie Huang: I wasn't going to win against three to four other kids. I just didn't say anything. I let it pass over. You know, like when you're a young boy and you've been shamed like that, something breaks and you realize and it's a really unfortunate realization that like people are mean.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Eddie Huang: Like people are mean and they are going to hurt you. And I think the first instinct at that age if you're picked on like that and just like completely embarrassed and no parents come to save you, no adults care. Like there was tons of adults at this Little League park.

Anna Martin: They just let it happen.

Eddie Huang: You know, you learned that you have to protect yourself.

Anna Martin: So was that and thank you for sharing that. I mean, I know it's many years ago, but it clearly is still very present. Like you can go back there. Was that a turning point for you where you're like, "Okay, I need to fight back. I need to stand up for myself"?

Eddie Huang: It was a huge turning point. And I learned to fight. And it wasn't long after that that somebody pushed me down to the lunch line and called me a [chink] for the first time. And then that moment became the pilot episode of Fresh Off the Boat. So, my way has been to alchemize these feelings and moments and share them in the hopes that like future young boys don't do this to each other and that if it does happen to you, you see a reflection of you that fought back, that did something.

Anna Martin: You're mentioning that you became a fighter. You decided to fight back. Can you paint me a picture of what that looked like? What that meant?

Eddie Huang: I just refused to be picked on anymore. And I could see situations where I would not have the upper hand and I literally just wouldn't walk into them. You know, I always had a padlock on me. I always I always had something on me and it just changed the way that I moved through the world. I mean, I guess I should just say like I ended up getting a couple assault charges. I got in trouble. I did sell drugs at one point and then around the age of 19 there was a book that a professor Jennifer Halton gave to me.

Anna Martin: And it was very interesting and it was...

Eddie Huang: And it was breaking down how the Asian-American male has been emasculated through films starting with things like Long Duck Dong in Sixteen Candles where he's on a stationary bicycle as a metaphor for sex and it's very funny but he like never gets the girl. Um, in Replacement Killers, Chow Yun-Fat never gets with Mira Sorvino. In Romeo Must Die, Jet Li saves Aaliyah, doesn't get the girl. So, it's just like there was many, many examples where Asian-American men were just like blocked from intimacy.

Anna Martin: I realized, you know, it wasn't just a...

Eddie Huang: Me thing. There was like a systemic kind of attack on the Asian male through like pop culture and identity. And so I mean, Fresh Off the Boat comes out from that. Like that is absolutely the driving force behind Fresh Off the Boat is to represent not just Asian-American men, but like anyone who feels downtrodden and anyone who feels like they're not allowed to be a whole human person in the society that they participate in.

Anna Martin: When you were younger, was it like do you remember a specific time where we started off with that oped about this assumption that Asian men were not wanted by women, wanted for intimacy? How did that play out in your own life when you were a young adult, when you were dating?

Eddie Huang: Yeah. So going back to this idea that once I was picked on a lot and people made fun of me for being Chinese and then all the, you know, small penis jokes started percolating around like fifth grade. Um, I started to approach things with that sense of like be careful, don't get into danger, don't be vulnerable, things like that. And I remember I ended up having the biggest crush on this girl in 8th grade. Um, she rode horses and stuff and she would always wear like Ralph Lauren Purple label and I was like, "This is so fly."

Anna Martin: And a horse girl. Wow.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. Horse girl. She looked like, you know, like a Ralph Lauren ad. I was like, "Oh my god, this woman is incredible." And she was so smart. Like, she would understand the books we were reading. I didn't really understand the books we were reading in class. And I would never admit I liked anyone.

Anna Martin: And why? I mean, you're a kid, so people don't like to do that, but why?

Eddie Huang: Cuz you could get hurt.

Anna Martin: You know, like...

Eddie Huang: I would never admit I like somebody cuz then you could get hurt. You could be made fun of, right? So I told my best friend and I was just like, "Yo, do you think she would want to hang out with me?" And he was like, "Why don't you just ask?" I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. I can't ask. You just got to like, you know, maneuver it. You got to to just like be in the same spot and like maybe we like the same thing and like I'm not going to ask." And it went on for like months. I was just obsessed with this girl, but would not like go talk to her, you know, like I'd freeze up if I like ran in her in the hallway.

Anna Martin: Yeah. Mhm.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. And I think, you know, I think my friends in middle school would say I was one of like the tougher boys and, you know, we were the boys like we didn't even eat lunch. We just played basketball during lunch. We were the basketball kids.

Anna Martin: I was a little bit scared of those boys. Yeah.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. We we would just play ball. And so one day I come to school and the principal is like, "You need to come to the office right now." I was like, "What?"

Anna Martin: Huh?

Eddie Huang: And he's like, "Look, I need to tell you what happened. I know it wasn't you. Your friend has already admitted to this, but your friends wrote a letter to this girl saying, 'I love you and I want to eat your dingleberries.' Signed by you."

Anna Martin: She turned it in.

Eddie Huang: She knows you did not do this. We know you did not do this. Everyone has admitted to it. but like the school knows. And I was like, this is probably the second most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to me.

Anna Martin: That sucks. I had no idea where that was going. What the heck? Why did your friends do that?

Eddie Huang: Yeah. I have no...

Anna Martin: Your friends wrote this note pretending to be you. It's why.

Eddie Huang: And even as a kid, I wasn't mad at them.

Anna Martin: Cuz...

Eddie Huang: I think their thing was like, just get it over with, man. You talk about this girl all the time. Like I remember sleeping over in my friend's crib and he had a bunk bed. I'd be on the top bunk like, "Yo, you think I should call her?" And he's he's just like, "Just call her, man." And so, I think they meant well, but also as boys, you can't you can't like really do it well. You have to put a dingleberry in there. So, they did. They did not know they were going to get in that much trouble. They did not know it would blow up. And then funny enough, like a really nice girl brokered like a movie date with for me and this girl to go on and we went and I did not say one word.

Anna Martin: Oh my god.

Eddie Huang: I did not say one word. I just went home. I was so embarrassed.

Anna Martin: Okay, this story is endearing and also that turn with the friends. Oh my god. But the question I'd asked that that spurred this and I I hate them for you. I mean I can't and I was actually dingleberry the word that was used. Yeah. I mean, my friends have always been idiots. Like I'm surrounded by idiots eternally. Like for eighth graders is pretty clever. Totally. Totally. But it's interesting because I the the question that teed up the story is I was sort of like this idea that you weren't wanted. How was that reinforced in your own life? And is the subtext of that story like you didn't believe she could want you because of who you were? Is that why that story came up?

Eddie Huang: Yes. And I also distinctly remember as that was the first girl I admitted to anybody that I liked. And also my homie that wrote the letter that was my best that he he was my best friend at the time. I love the guy is a Filipino guy and his older brother had a non-Asian girlfriend and they would always be Eddie fine. See, you know, like he did it, you know, like...

Anna Martin: Like he's dating a a white girl or a non-Asian girl.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. And like it was also just like they could see I think that my model for romance at home was like not great and they didn't understand why I had so much trouble like in my head because my friend he didn't have a problem talking to girls. You just go talk to girls and he's like I don't know why you're all messed up about this you know.

Anna Martin: Tell me about your model for romance at home. You've written a lot about your parents, your parents' home, how volatile it could be. But tell me about that model that you witnessed when you were growing up.

Eddie Huang: I really rejected the model of male figure in my house and the romance because like my dad is a very smooth dude. And I remember one time even just going back to Taiwan at the age of 12. There was like a like mid30s woman that was having tea and she decided to say to me, you know, your dad was the one. He really was the one. Like me, all the girlies, like we loved your dad. And I was just like, huh?

Anna Martin: How did that hit you as a kid?

Eddie Huang: I just thought he was a dirt bag.

Anna Martin: Oh, I didn't know that.

Eddie Huang: What a dirt bag. you know, cuz it's like I couldn't understand why my mom was mad at him all the time cuz like women would call the house and my mom would lose her mind and I was like, "Oh, what's going on?" And like around 12 when we went back to Taiwan. That trip was a seminal trip in my life because someone told me my dad was like in a gang that protected the neighborhood. These women were like, "Your dad was the one." And so these pieces of my dad started coming into focus. But I rejected it all cuz my dad hit my mom. My dad did really bad things and I just didn't want to be a man like my dad in romance.

Anna Martin: Tell me more about that. Tell me the qualities that you It sounds like you're rejecting this sort of slick maybe womanizing tendency you were seeing. What were you moving towards? If that's what you wanted not to be, then what did you want to be?

Eddie Huang: I always knew who I was. Huh.

Anna Martin: Huh.

Eddie Huang: I just knew. I'm a I'm a nice sweet kid who just like wants to be with one or two other people like my wife, my son, my best friend or two, you know? I I pretended to be bad and I created like this tough exterior because I didn't want to keep getting picked on, but deep down I'm just like I'm just like a nice kid, you know?

Anna Martin: I'm curious if you know as you were growing up, maybe even after you moved out, was there ever a moment in a relationship with a woman or with a friend where you kind of opened up and almost showed this more sensitive, vulnerable interior, but then realized like, oh no, I need to be tough. Like was there a moment where you almost gave someone access I guess to that inner part of yourself that you can recall?

Eddie Huang: Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah. There there was one relationship where I opened up about like my parents and the relationship between my mom and dad like you know the idea of family came up and...

Anna Martin: How old were you in this relationship?

Eddie Huang: I was in my 30s. I was in my 30s and like family was on the table and we were talking about it. It was something I wanted. And I had actually shared with this person everything about my family. And the person actually brought it up and was like, "Well, I just don't know if you're going to be great at this because of the family you come from." That really hurt my feelings and I really regretted telling that person anything.

Anna Martin: Was this the first time that you felt like you'd been truly honest about your family, the way you'd grown up with someone you were interested in romantically?

Eddie Huang: Yeah. Yeah. I I because this person also had their own issues, so I felt, oh, okay, I could probably tell you mine and you'll understand because you're not perfect either. And I was just like, I trust you for it's hard to like diagnose why you trusted somebody, but I think the fact of the matter is I trusted this person. So, I shared my story and when the gun kind of got turned back at me, I was pretty flabbergasted. And I would say that, you know, you're a good journalist because I did not think about it at the time, but it absolutely is the same feeling I had when those kids were throwing like sunflower seeds in my face.

Anna Martin: I was going to maybe circle back to that. I mean, it's it's really painful to be vulnerable and then to be totally shut down. I mean, it it sounds really hard.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. For me, it's like it really I I really do think being a man was best expressed by Michael Corleone where it's just like just when I thought I was out, you pull me back in.

Anna Martin: Huh.

Eddie Huang: Because I just want to be a nice guy. I want to put my walls down. I want to do everything my therapist tells me to do. And sometimes things happen and you're just like, "Here we go again." You know, here come the walls.

Anna Martin: Here come the walls. But this this moment with this person where you feel you think that you are able to let these walls down and then as you say, "Whoop, I'm pulled right back in to this toughness, this, you know, vigilance." these parts of yourself are perhaps uneasily coexisting at all times, right? Like it feels... Yeah. Go. What were you going to say?

Eddie Huang: They don't coexist easily. I think that's why I do have like trouble. And like I think a lot of times too like I've seen the comments on YouTube for decades where people like what a fake tough guy. I'm like I am a fake tough guy because I created this version of myself to move through the world when there's danger. And that fake version of me is me being my father. Plain and simple.

Anna Martin: Oh, he's in therapy. Oh, he's done a lot.

Eddie Huang: I did the work. Like, I see it.

Anna Martin: No. And I don't mean that. I mean, I maybe shouldn't have joked about... No, I think No, I I absolutely think it's true. Like, I didn't understand what I was doing subconsciously, but that is what I was doing. Well, Eddie, I I I'm thinking back to this this moment that is really again I painful is maybe the wrong word, but so intense to me of you opening up to this woman, right? You were in a relationship with this woman and her not reacting to your vulnerability in the way you would have wanted and you shutting down after that. Can I ask you like did you have this feeling like well I'm never doing that again?

Eddie Huang: Yeah. Funny enough, no. I was honestly very excited to one day try again.

Anna Martin: Huh?

Eddie Huang: But I was pretty sure I was like if someone's going to like turn around the thing they shared with you to hurt you, it's like come on man.

Anna Martin: Sure. You know. Sure. That's a tough one to come back from.

Anna Martin: We'll be right back. Remember when I said we were going to talk about your new book? We're going to do that now. It's called Come Undone. It's a novel. The main character, let's start here. His name is Huie. And I have to tell you, I did not love how he was treating women. I don't think you wanted us to love how he was treating women. Can you would you classify Hubie as a [fuck] boy? I know that's like a very loaded term. Okay, you would?

Eddie Huang: Yeah.

Anna Martin: Tell me about his ways. Tell me how he's moving to use your words.

Eddie Huang: So, when the book starts, the first woman that Huie chooses is Samantha. And he chooses her because he finds her choices vulgar.

Anna Martin: Huh.

Eddie Huang: She has an orange Birkin with Rick and Morty drawn onto the side of it.

Anna Martin: That was so specific. Can I just say in a way that I was like, "Yeah." But for those who might not understand, what what does that telegraph? What does that mean to have an Orange Birkin with Rick and Morty drawn on the side?

Eddie Huang: It's in poor taste. Like Huie sees everything that Samantha does as in poor taste. and what Huie doesn't realize he's doing and feels he doesn't like himself. So he chooses people that he likes less than himself.

Anna Martin: Huh. Because they're safe. They're not going to hurt him.

Eddie Huang: Yeah.

Anna Martin: Can you give us like a snapshot from the book of like a moment where Huie is classic like that shows that in action? A sort of classic Huie [fuck] boy moment. Can you describe for us?

Eddie Huang: In the opening chapter, Huie is taking Samantha on this like Malibu station and he presents it as romantic even though in his head it's like a quote unquote hoe trip. And when Samantha and meaning like they're just going to have a lot of sex. Yeah. Like it's just this is just exercise, right? This is cardio. And when Samantha, god forbid, has an idea that something is going on and wants to know where she stands in the relationship, Huie completely rejects the conversation. And it's like, why would you have that thought? This is a Malibu station. We're going to Nou for the 4th of July. Like, this is what hoes do. And it's like...

Anna Martin: ...yeah, but you did present this trip to this woman as romantic and you know it.

Eddie Huang: I mean, it's bad.

Anna Martin: No, no, no. And it's cuz it's like that grown is a grown of recognition, but it is just like what you're saying is this this type of guy that Huie is, which is someone who wants the benefits of intimacy, physical and emotional, but then at the first blush of someone trying to define something or check in emotionally or connect emotionally pulls away, right? And it's like, what are you talking about? Like I never gave you the impression I wanted some like this is the kind of person that you're describing who...

Eddie Huang: ...he's very Drake like.

Anna Martin: Yeah. He's very drizzy Drake.

Eddie Huang: And Huie also does the things like in the book when Huie's in his toxic era. He's doing the things that he knows men are supposed to do and women are supposed to be excited about taking you to Nou. Right. You're supposed to be like, "I'm excited. Wow, he's taking me to Nou. This must be serious." But deep down, he's like laughing at it and it's like, "You're so stupid for even thinking that this means that." And it's like it's a dirty game.

Anna Martin: Why is he doing that? Why is he choosing to spend so much time with this person who he doesn't respect? Tell me a little bit more about the psychology there.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. I'll tell you a lot about the psychology and also why I wrote it is men who move like this can read this book and it's a mirror being held up to your face.

Anna Martin: Huh. Was that your experience holding up a mirror to your own face writing it?

Eddie Huang: Yes. And to my friends, right? Like I've had friends that have read it and are like, "Whoa, okay. Not good." I was like, "Not good." You know, and I'm going to let you into the male brain. I think I think what you're getting at here is that I do think there are men and I will just acknowledge myself instead of being like there are men not me.

Eddie Huang: I mean men are expected to get money and have sex. That is like the core tenets of basic male masculinity. I didn't write the rules. They're the basic rules. New York Times readers should have better rules, right? But like I'll just acknowledge I probably didn't.

Anna Martin: Huh? You know, this is the classic script of masculinity. Yeah.

Eddie Huang: Classic script of masculinity is you need to you need to be making money. You need to be successful. And then that success and money should translate into having copious amounts of sex. And um I think that a lot of men buy into this and a lot of men are just not big enough and they're not man enough to be like, you know what, I'm good without this. And what I do see, what is very cool is that younger men now, the generation after mine, I know several young guys that are like, I'm celibate right now.

Anna Martin: There's a guy that works at the restaurant...

Eddie Huang: ...very attractive. People always want to talk to him. He's celibate right now and like um I respect that a lot about him. That said, the guy at the restaurant that I know who is doing this and is like being very good is a very attractive guy who's had a lot of sex. So, it it's just like kind of you know, we have these models.

Anna Martin: ...you know, we have these models.

Eddie Huang: Then I also have other homies that, you know, they're smashing the dating apps and they're lonely and they're just like, I just I gotta I got to be with some body, you know? And I don't think it's about shaming people, right? But I think we should all just acknowledge and understand that like there are a lot of pressures around performing masculinity and being a man. You know, it's tough. It's tough. I I can't imagine being like a 21-year-old guy right now who's a gooner on the internet trying to figure this out. Like it's kind of it's difficult in any generation to figure out how to be a man is difficult. Not as hard as being a woman. Being a woman is much more difficult. So we should all figure this out as men. But I wrote this character and I wrote this book because I wanted to just open up the conversation of like we don't need to be doing these things to feel like men.

Anna Martin: You've described this before in in various interviews as autofiction. So I want to ask you about which parts of yourself you're exploring through this book. Like how much of Hubie is you? Basically I'm asking...

Eddie Huang: Hubie. A lot of Hubie is me, except for one central defining factor, which is when I met my wife, I ran towards her.

Anna Martin: Oh, yeah.

Eddie Huang: Yeah.

Anna Martin: Well, I'm thinking I'm thinking I'm thinking we just have to get into that story right now. You know, she's your wife. But how did you and her name is Natasha? This I know. How did you two come together?

Eddie Huang: So, funny enough, Natasha had just broken up with somebody and decided to fire up the Rya app on her phone and in her like post breakup moment, matched with me and I think we exchanged maybe two or three messages. Then I just didn't hear from her. She ghosted me for two years.

Anna Martin: For two years?

Eddie Huang: Yeah, for two years. And uh I mean when I exchanged the one or two messages with her, I was like, "Oh, I like this slideshow. I like this per this person's intriguing to me." I remembered her. When she messaged me two years later, I was just like, well, I had to laugh. She messaged me and said, "So what I'm going to do here is pretend like I didn't ignore this for 2 years. Hi, how are you? Welcome back."

Anna Martin: And I was like, "You're worse than me." Wait, I don't like this. Wait, wait. Okay. Can I say too, it's so hard to like know from a profile, but what about her? What about her was intriguing such that it seems like you responded to her two years later message? Like why? What was it about her that made you want to respond? Cuz honestly, I'd see that and I'd be like, "Yeah, whatever." Like it took you two years. Bye.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. I saw it as extreme confidence. And you know, most people in situations, they act in the way they think they're supposed to act. There are a lot of like correct answer people in the world. She is she's it's in Natasha's answer world in in her mind. And I think it's cool. And I thought the audacity to like hit me back after 2 years like, "Yo, what's up?" I was like, "You're like the worst dude I know." And it cracked me up.

Anna Martin: You respected it.

Eddie Huang: I respected it. I respected it.

Anna Martin: So she comes back after 2 years and is like, "Oh, can I say this too, Anna?"

Eddie Huang: I want to say this. It's just like for a man who was a [fuck] boy for many, many years...

Anna Martin: ...this is you...

Eddie Huang: ...me?

Anna Martin: Mhm.

Eddie Huang: You respect someone who punches you in the face.

Anna Martin: I was like, I deserve this. It was like penance. You were like, okay, this is not just for Natasha. It's for all the women I assume you ghosted or left on red. and then circled back after two years being like, "Hi, wow, that's so funny." You were like, "Was it a little bit like game recognized game?" That kind of thing.

Eddie Huang: Exactly. That's exactly it. That was exactly the attraction.

Anna Martin: Okay. So, she hits you up then. Do you then what happens?

Eddie Huang: We just started to chitchat and she I would say, is a witch. Like, she can see what you're saying behind what you're saying.

Anna Martin: Uh-huh.

Eddie Huang: And I I feel the thing about her that she saw in me and vice versa was the things we work on in therapy, like the masks and the projections, she could see past all of mine and be like, "Haha, shut up." You know, like, "Get that out of here." She was she was just kind of like throwing them all out of the way. And then I was kind of able to do that with her. And I think she appreciated that because I think tricky, elusive, emotionally unavailable people know that they're doing it and they want to be seen, but they're not going to show you.

Anna Martin: They're going to wait for someone to pull the sword out of stone.

Eddie Huang: Yeah.

Anna Martin: Huh. And wait, are we still in the zone of you guys are just like messaging or had you met up at this point and you're like...

Eddie Huang: ...we were just messaging. I mean, she got like my full natal chart before I even met her.

Anna Martin: Well, that's classic and that's required actually.

Eddie Huang: Then eventually she was like, "All right, I'll hang out with you. What are you doing today?" And I was like, "Look, I'm boxing and if you want to come box, you can box, too." And she was like, "Yeah, I'll come box with you." And then she came in a sports bra and she had a fullback dragon tattoo. And I, funny enough, I boxed without my shirt on. I had a fullback dragon tattoo. And we were just like like, "We should date. We should try. We we we should do this. We're both We're the same [shit]."

Anna Martin: Whoa. Yeah. Whoa. I mean, that's a little on the nose for the universe, don't you think? You both have fullback dragon tattoos. It's sort of like, how heavy-handed do you need to be?

Anna Martin: So, how do two emotionally unavailable people become available for each other?

Eddie Huang: One person just has to go. One person has to chase. And I just had a feeling this would be the last woman I ever chased.

Anna Martin: Why? How?

Eddie Huang: She was it. It was just her. like I just knew it was her. Like I had a gut thing. I was like, "This woman knows how to push my buttons, how to move me around, but she cares about me." And there's some people who they can manipulate you and they can move you around, but they do it to your detriment. Natasha would push my buttons and move me around for our benefit.

Anna Martin: In order for things to go to the next level, someone has to open up about their feelings. And I'm curious how that went down for the two of you.

Eddie Huang: What happened was Natasha like sent me a voice note saying, "Oh my gosh, there's this guy at Katsune that like just came out of the bathroom and told me he had deja vu and like he's meant to be with me. It's so funny." yada yada. And this was maybe like five weeks into talking.

Anna Martin: Okay. And how did you feel getting that?

Eddie Huang: By that point, I was just like I had a lot of feelings for Natasha.

Anna Martin: So when she told me that there was another guy that was telling her these things...

Eddie Huang: ...it just upset me.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Eddie Huang: And I was like, you know what? I don't really like this and you're welcome...

Anna Martin: ...that's like an understatement. Yeah.

Eddie Huang: ...I was like, you're welcome to talk to whoever like this is your life and I'm I'm like not a possessive person, but I I just told her very straightforward in an email. I sent her an email.

Anna Martin: Do you still have the email like that you sent to Natasha somewhere?

Eddie Huang: I mean, I can grab the book cuz it's the same email. You want me to read this email? Yeah, please. Yeah, I'll go get the two seconds. Yeah. [music] So funny. I I cannot find the book in the house, but I will just go into the email. Yes, that's even better for journalistic purposes. Okay. And thank God for email. How amazing that we have everything documented as a digital footprint. It's crazy too to like there's so many emails to my wife. Oh man, this is embarrassing stuff. Oh my god. I That is music to my ears. Okay, Eddie, let's set the scene again. So, um, Natasha, who you'd been seeing for, you said 5 weeks, so a couple weeks, sends you this voice note basically being like, "Someone else is hitting on me, and you're feeling all types of ways."

Eddie Huang: Yeah. So, um, so it goes, "Hey, I was going to talk to you in person or call you, but I feel like we do well writing. I like you in a genuine, real way. We joke a lot, so I want you to know I'm not kidding when I say I like you. I'm not the best at expressing myself or being direct when it comes to this and have kind of [fucked] up my life in the areas that matter most by dating people that deflect emotion and make their lives a joke, too. This stupid Don Julio tattoo I'm stuck with is the best reminder to me that I need to choose to be with people who can be honest and direct and receive my energy cuz it is a lot but it's real. Even though it's Mercury retrograde, I felt this way for a while. I don't care what you've done before or who's in your favorites folder or who this dude at Katsune is. and I'm not going to change my mind in a year or two or whatever. I think you're the best."

Anna Martin: How did that feel to send?

Eddie Huang: Oh, terrible. And funny enough, I'm looking at this and like 3 minutes after I send it, I've forwarded it to my best friend with the sentence, I will live with the response. I represented myself in an honest light.

Anna Martin: So cute. I will live with the response. I represented myself and I was like, "Oh, I am so endeared by this on on many levels because you're opening yourself up in a genuine way to rejection. Um, you're not This to me is not a tough guy move. This is saying, "Hi, I like you." And also doing some very serious reflecting on the ways that you'd messed up previously. like this to me feels like a big change from... and I'm loving hearing you're a Natasha son Santa um because it foreshadows what we're going to talk about but why were you ready to open up in this way?

Eddie Huang: I had gotten to the age and understood that life offers you opportunities but if you don't step into them and you're not honest and you don't say what needs to be said in those moments like your life could fall apart.

Anna Martin: You send this email and I'm loving that addendum you send to your best friend like I stand by what I said, you know, like it's so cute. Okay. And then are you like checking your phone every two seconds for a response? Obviously... get any work done that day.

Eddie Huang: I remember my neck and shoulders just being tight.

Anna Martin: Totally. Oh god. Yeah. That cortisol going crazy.

Eddie Huang: I unfortunately I I don't I don't recommend this. I just hit my ball crazy. Like I smoked an inordinate amount of weed and just paced and walked around the neighborhood and did physical activities, went to the boxing gym. I mean, she didn't respond for multiple days.

Anna Martin: And Okay. How did that hit you? Did the walls I'm thinking about that moment with that person where your walls came back up when they didn't respond to you opening up. Did you feel like that was happening again? Was it like, "Okay, well, I tried to be vulnerable. I laid my heart on the line. No response. Back up." Like, was that the impulse for you?

Eddie Huang: I will honestly say no. And I think that is the work that I was doing. Was you have to make a deal with yourself. At some point, you have to say, "These defense mechanisms are not helping me. They're not making my life better, and I need to stop doing it." Almost like an addict. I had to tell myself, "The wall's coming up. That's not going to help you. Running away, pretending you don't care about this woman, that's not going to help you."

Anna Martin: And then...

Eddie Huang: And then she just called me. She called me and was like, "Hey, um, you're totally not going to believe me. I just read your email. It was in my spam folder."

Anna Martin: Oh my god.

Eddie Huang: And she just told me, she's like, "I never check my spam folder. I don't know why it's there, but I read it and I will just tell you I feel similar things."

Anna Martin: Wow. How were you feeling when she confirmed that she was feeling the same way?

Eddie Huang: Just complete levitation of like mind, body, spirit. Like total levitation and just...

Anna Martin: ...you knew how hard it would be to find your person and for them to feel the same way about you. But you believed.

Eddie Huang: I believed. I I took a chance. I told this woman how I felt, knowing it could have gone bad, but I believed. I believed that the things I was feeling were real and that I'm not a [fuckboy] And I've never looked back. I've never looked back. I I've always known even at our lowest times, this is my person. This is the love of my life. Like I don't know what I would do without her.

Anna Martin: Does loving and being loved by Natasha, does your relationship, has it given you a new understanding of what it means to be a man? That's where we started our conversation. I'm curious if you have any reflections from your vantage point now.

Eddie Huang: Absolutely. She on I would say a monthly basis redefineses for me what it is to be a man. like don't do this, you know, like don't get caught in that photo, you know, like she will show me Keanu Reeves. She's like, look at Keanu Reeves. Keanu Reeves never takes a photo next to a woman. There's always a gap. There's a photo gap between Keanu Reeves and any woman that is not Keanu Reeves woman. She's like, "That is a man." Very practical. She's like, "That is a man." what you're doing in these photos, Eddie. Not manly behavior.

Anna Martin: Okay. Interesting. That is very specific. And I'm loving Keanu Reeves is the the model of masculinity. I think that's something I can get behind.

Eddie Huang: That is a joke, but it's also real. You like see the truth behind that, right? Because like...

Anna Martin: So, let me let me break that down cuz it is a joke, but I I did...

Eddie Huang: ...me mean this literally is like as a man, get rid of your toxic behaviors. Get rid of your bad habits, you know? Like remember if I matter this much to you, if I am your person and I have changed your life and made it better as you say, be consistent. And that is her message to me all the time. She's like, be consistent. Be this guy every day. And I get it cuz she knows I wasn't [shit] before.

Anna Martin: Wow. I mean, you're talking about how in a really significant way, your understanding of what it means to be a man in a man in a relationship has changed. And I've had conversations with men about masculinity on the show before and how to step into masculinity without and and everything that's supposed to mean to like live out masculinity without becoming toxic or misogynistic. I don't know. How are you preventing the swing into toxicity when you step into masculinity?

Eddie Huang: Yeah, I I will say I think that my understanding of masculinity was completely incorrect. You know, I created that mask and alter ego that was very much like my father who was slick and elusive and very tough. Um, that isn't what I see as masculinity anymore. If you care, you're consistent, you're loyal, you show up, you're not punishing people, that to me are the traits of a man that is productive.

Anna Martin: Yeah, that does feel very different. I mean, very like palpably different from where you sort of began with your ideas of masculinity. I mean it is also interesting you're tracing a a change in your understanding a transformation. I will like in doing our research for this interview I came across there was criticism you know years ago of the sort of tough guy exterior that you had this idea of masculinity that some people felt like sort of punch down right like put other people down in order to make yourself to to put yourself up. And it's sounding like it's sounding like that's not the place you're in right now.

Eddie Huang: Yeah. I And I definitely am now aware that's what I was doing and it was unnecessary and I don't participate in that anymore and um I'd rather lift people up that I care about.

Anna Martin: ...we've been talking about ideas of masculinity, what it means to be a man, what we inherit from our parents, what we figure out on our own. And I I want to know like as you raise Senna, what feels important to you to teach him, to show him about what it means to to be a man?

Eddie Huang: You know, it's it's interesting you ask this because I did make a conscious choice when he was born, you know, with a son especially. They don't have a relationship with the father like that early on. They they really want mommy.

Anna Martin: Yeah.

Eddie Huang: Right. I kind of waited my turn to like be in Santa's life. And it was around like the sixth month he really started to open up to me and wanted to hang out. And I mean, he's still like a baby blah, but um once he could talk um once he could talk and he could understand, the one thing I do is I remind him I say, "No matter what, dad loves you. Like, you don't got to be anything. You don't got to do anything. I love you. You're the best." And that's the choice I've made as a father...

Anna Martin: ...is to not demand that he's anything.

Eddie Huang: Like there isn't a way to be like, you know, you're going to be this type of man, you're going to be this type of person. I'm just like, you're just you. And whatever you choose to be, I respect that choice and I love you. And I think that to me is a version of masculinity that I would love for him and and other men. It's just I love you, man. You know, like you don't need to live up to some archetype of man. You don't even need to look at other men. Like be you. Who you are is cool.

Anna Martin: Eddie, thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it.

Eddie Huang: Thank you. It was It was great. I really enjoyed this.

Anna Martin: The modern love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Lin Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg. It was edited by Lynn Levy and Davis Land. Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez. Original music in this episode by Alicia Beetup, Aman Sota, Diane Wong, and Marian Lozano. Dan Powell composed our theme music. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.