Nicola Tangan: Hi everyone, I'm Nicola Tangan, the CEO of the Norwegian So Fund and today we are doing something really great fun because Norway happened to smash every record in the winter Olympics and today we are joined by Anak Pensor who is the professor over sports psychology and he's basically the person who's shaped the whole mental training of the Norwegian Olympic athletes. So warm welcome.

Anak Pensor: Thank you so much.

Nicola Tangan: Now, how do you explain all these medals?

Anak Pensor: Oh, that's a really complex question. It goes a long way back because we tend to think about what we do today, but it has been a long tradition for maybe 20-30 years now where we have worked on this culture. So I think there's many pieces in that puzzle.

Nicola Tangan: When did you decide to, because it was after touring I guess, or when did you think that hey, we need to do some stuff here?

Anak Pensor: Well, it's even later or before that actually. After the Calgary games, we didn't take any medals and then we started to think what should we do about this and we had to do something about the whole top sport level system and also work more together as teams and also think long term to develop athletes.

Nicola Tangan: Okay. So, you are in Calgary. It's the worst game the country has ever had. So you sit down, what do you do? What kind of plan do you come up with? How do you...

Anak Pensor: Unfortunately, I was not there so I started later. But the Tua, who was the one who kind of founded Olymp, which is our top sports center where everybody meets and collaborate and share ideas, that was a really important starting point. And then we had some good leaders who really focused on expertise in different areas: physiological, nutrition, psychology and also more training insights into the training regime and also how to develop talents. So many things happened in the late 80s and early 90s.

Nicola Tangan: How long time does it take from you start a process like that until you really see the results?

Anak Pensor: I think that's a good major point is that this takes time. It's not a quick fix in any way. And of course, you need to have athletes who really want to be dedicated, who want to put in the hours to do this immense training. So you need to be patient. And also you want to have results fast as well. So you kind of have to have two focuses at the same time: try to develop instant performances but also think long term in order to sustain that performance over time.

Nicola Tangan: There is something called the Norwegian model. What is that?

Anak Pensor: Well, that's actually the way we treat our youth sports. And that we're not allowed to have result lists or give only prices to one person up to the age of 12. So if I get the price, you get the price even though I might be faster than you. And that kind of also helps us think that these are children. They are supposed to have fun to play, not to be singled out as talent at an early age. And I think that's a key element in why we are able to have a lot of youth doing sports for a long time. And then we have more to pick from. And also, we are a tiny country. We need to take care of everyone who wants to.

Nicola Tangan: Something very social democratic about the fact that everybody gets the same price. No.

Anak Pensor: Yeah, it is. But you know when you are a child at 12, you know who is the best one. You don't need to have a prize for that person. And at the same time, they forget the results two minutes later. If you ask a kid what the result from the football pitch was, they might even not remember the score. So it's important to keep the perspective on this. They should develop on their own terms. And the most important thing is that they're social with their friends. So then they will stick to the sport. Do you think the result lists and the awards are the reason why people drop off in sports, let's say in the US, much quicker?

Nicola Tangan: I think there's a lot more pressure on young kids in the US. We stayed there for some time and also we're able to see the system from that perspective and it's very different. And I also think the Norwegian system allows a child to try different sports for a longer period of time instead of just choosing one.

Anak Pensor: We're kind of maybe losing track of that at the moment. So I think we need to really focus on what we did 10 years ago, because that's the result of what we see today. That's why these athletes perform today. It's what not what they do today necessarily, but what they have done for many, many years.

Nicola Tangan: It's interesting how some of the top talents were doing several sports, right? I mean, even the chess player Magnus Carlson was a good footballer, right?

Nicola Tangan: What is the case for doing many different things?

Anak Pensor: There's many advantages of doing that because both physically you are more prepared to the different new techniques that will develop. You also get more ability to be more flexible in your mindset. You're in different environments, so that you have a different coach, maybe in different settings, teaches you how to behave in different settings, to relate to people. So there's and it's a lot more fun to do different things, and you're with your friends, hopefully for most of the time. So there's so many advantages of doing this. So we shouldn't lose track of that. And we also know that just by growing children gain more physical fitness. So we don't have to put that much effort into that at that moment.

Nicola Tangan: What's the similarities to business when it comes to that doing different things or specializing early?

Anak Pensor: I think it's important in any kind of profession to know different skills that gives you a knowledge background so that you understand your co-workers and also you are more flexible and able to analyze a situation from different perspectives, I think. So a broad background I think is beneficial in many ways, also in business I would say.

Nicola Tangan: Now there are many sports where we don't do well or where nobody doesn't do well, right? I mean, figure skating, ice hockey and so on. Why are we not doing well in those sports?

Anak Pensor: We don't have enough ice hockey rinks. We don't have so few places to go on ice. So if we had decided to develop that, I'm quite sure we would also excel in that area.

Nicola Tangan: Right. Okay. So what I mean is the accessibility to do your sport is of course key. It's easy for us to go out and do skiing.

Anak Pensor: It's far more difficult to get ice time somewhere.

Nicola Tangan: Why doesn't Sweden replicate what Norway does?

Anak Pensor: Well, I think Sweden is also quite successful I would say and also in some of the really huge sports. So we shouldn't boast of knowing what to do and teach other cultures what to do. I think they do pretty well. But I think we in Norway have the advantage of being very close together with the science, the applied part, the athletes, the coaches. It's quite a tight community. A lot of knowledge translation to other sports. And I think that is quite unique for the Norwegian system that we are able to create these meeting places where we actually can talk across sports.

Nicola Tangan: When you contrast with let's say the US, what's the biggest difference?

Anak Pensor: This is one of the things my US colleagues envy us for, that we are able to create these meeting places. And we also have, several times before an Olympics, we have all the athletes gathered together also to bond, to get to know each other so that when they go to the Olympics they know each other well. And this is a concept that the US have adopted as well and tried to do. But they are huge. I mean, the squad is three times bigger than ours in the Olympics. So it's more difficult for them being such a huge country and much more people.

Nicola Tangan: How important is it to have specific stars or role models which create these clusters?

Anak Pensor: Again, I think that's a key thing. You need the role models. You need those who pave the way for other people. And when you see that, oh, can you succeed? I can succeed. And that's super important. So, let's say in alpine skiing, when Kjetil André Aamodt kind of took a World Cup medal, the other teammates were just looking at each other and said, well, if he can, I beat him every day on training, so if he can, I can. And that's important in every sport. You have Sander Sagosen we have in so many different areas. And also now in football with Erling Haaland and Martin Ødegaard, it creates a belief that we also can do well when it comes to different sports.

Nicola Tangan: Moving on to the mental edge. So let's say now I'm a decent athlete. What do you as a sports psychologist do with me?

Anak Pensor: If you're a decent athlete, good enough to be part of the Olympic team in our place, I will mainly focus on why do you want to do this sport? Why did you become a skier? Why did you become a footballer? What was the drive behind your choice of sport and why do you do it now and what do you want to achieve?

Nicola Tangan: Well, I want to win. I want to show the world.

Anak Pensor: Then we need to know what the potential is and how far you're off that goal to see what you need to do of work. And are you actually willing to put in that amount of work that you need to do because it's a huge job to be a champion?

Nicola Tangan: Okay. So I want to be a champion. I'm going to put in whatever it takes. What do you do with my mind? With my brain?

Anak Pensor: Learn to focus.

Nicola Tangan: Huh?

Anak Pensor: You need to learn to focus.

Nicola Tangan: Okay.

Anak Pensor: Awareness is key. And that's something we have discovered in the last, I would say, 10 years. We put a lot of effort into working on attention skills and how to develop a flexible focus system in you so that you are able to focus on what you want to do instead of being caught in the moment and not being able to show us what you can do when the pressure is on. Because that will be the case that you will experience a lot of pressure and you will have to be able to handle that situation. Also, when you feel very little confidence or afraid or whatever feelings you have, you still have to be able to focus on what you should do. And that's what we would put a lot of effort into, training that ability.

Nicola Tangan: How do you train that ability?

Anak Pensor: We use different approaches. We do of course do mindfulness-based approaches. That's something that the research based from Jon Kabat-Zinn came about. That was really important in our perspective. But we also work with values. Who do you want to be? Who do you want to become? What kind of athlete do you want to be? Do you want to be the brave one? Then you can't do the shortcuts. So we have to work on several abilities and also factors that are important when it comes to mental skill training. We also work on how you can distinguish yourself from some of the thoughts that might steal your focus at some points. So how you can diffuse from the setting that you can "I'm not my thoughts", so I can still do what even though I think I'm not confident. That's a feeling, but I don't have to think that I am not confident. I have these thoughts that I'm not confident. And that's a huge difference. Then you distance yourself a bit from your thoughts. Then you can free yourself to still do what you want to do. Do the tasks you set out to do even though you don't really feel like you would do it in the first place. But then you start to master the things and then confidence becomes a result of your focus. Would everybody benefit from that type of focus training? You think?

Anak Pensor: Yeah, I think so for sure because it brings you back to the moment, to here and now. And there's a lot of things we can do even though we don't feel like doing it. And to separate the two frees us in many ways. And when we start doing things, mastery follows very often. Our experience follows and then we can learn from that instead of that we sit and wait for a confident feeling before we start doing things. And that's a huge shift in mindset that you start acting instead of just waiting for a feeling to come before you actually do the action.

Nicola Tangan: You also work with artists and people in the creative industry. What are the similarities?

Anak Pensor: Oh, I have learned so much from them. They have to perform every night and give something to the audience every night. And I have seen how extraordinarily well they prepare. They go through these rehearsals time after time after time and it's even more impressive than some of the athletes I would say. They prepare into minor details, they're focused on details. So it's and the similarity of course is connected to what also we do in sports. And I tend to work with artists that are interested in sports so I can use some of the analogies. And of course, I'm an expert in the sport area. So they have to kind of see what is transferable for their performance and their kind of life. But they also find that they are also they don't have this big support system that athletes have.

Anak Pensor: So it has been a huge pleasure to be able to work with some of the artists. For sure.

Nicola Tangan: You think business people are a bit dull.

Anak Pensor: Yes. Well, I think it's more for me it's more fun to work with athletes and performers.

Nicola Tangan: Why? Why? What is so dull with the business people?

Anak Pensor: Well, you know, when we win an Olympic gold medal or if you see a huge performance, you can cheer and you can jump and you can cry and you can laugh. You have a lot of emotions and you can cry with athletes when they don't succeed because that very often happens as well that they don't succeed.

Anak Pensor: So I think the emotional span within the performing arts and also in sports is much larger. So I don't know what you do here when you have a good day but...

Nicola Tangan: Well, we don't we don't really dance around.

Anak Pensor: No, I can imagine. So but and I like dancing around when something good is happening. So it's I guess it's just me. I feel that that's my area of competence is within sport. So and I have a huge also pleasure of working with so determined young people who really want to achieve their goal and be maybe being able to shape that road a bit for them and help them maybe reach what they want to do. It's a huge privilege I would say.

Nicola Tangan: So do you think we'll be a better place if we introduce more emotions and celebrations and high fives here?

Anak Pensor: I think I think we should celebrate good results somehow some in some way and you need to find you know I'm a researcher so we kind of when we have a published paper it's we do a little hey in the office so it's not much celebration there either so I think you need to kind of tailor it to where you are but some kind of celebration I think it's in place because it's what we're working for isn't it to to try to achieve our goals and then get some inspiration to continue to work hard. I saw this quote from this famous tennis player, pressure is a privilege.

Nicola Tangan: Do we use that also a bit?

Anak Pensor: Yeah. And we've started to use it too because it is...

Nicola Tangan: The fact that you have pressure means that you have an interesting job of times, right?

Anak Pensor: For sure.

Nicola Tangan: Do the best actually like pressure?

Anak Pensor: I think, well, I know some of them are terrified just before they're going to to dive into whatever they are supposed to do. But at the same time the award afterwards is so is quite huge when you have mastered what you been able to to do what you have done in practice so many times and then being able to do it when it really counts is a huge feeling of mastery. So that and that feeling is difficult to to experience anywhere else I think in in that kind of magnitude in some ways. So um so yeah it's it's a privilege. We try to you know put a lot of effort into being to gratitude just in Levvenia now when we were down there in Italy now with you know looking at the mountains we'd stayed in this nice hotel place will the Olympic village with a spectacular view and we just had to say you know thank you for being here I mean this is this is we can't can't take this for granted so we need also to ground ourselves and be really grateful I think.

Nicola Tangan: Yeah. What does gratitude do to people?

Anak Pensor: Oh, it's even science has has kind of found that this is hugely important for our brain. To also to to to live good lives. And of course, it's creates a kind of atmosphere when people are grateful and still instead of taking things just for granted. It's it's very different. So it creates humbleness in in kind of that moment where you also should be very courageous. So it's kind of again a span of emotions coming there and so I think it's yeah it's important.

Nicola Tangan: I read a book last year called the gratitude diary and...

Nicola Tangan: And so I I start my day every day first five minutes just go through all the things I'm grateful for.

Anak Pensor: Yes. Yes. And it puts you in a different place.

Nicola Tangan: It does. It it also reminds you that you can't take things for granted. And we have in you know last few months in the sports community there has been some some quite tough situations which which we had to to cope with and and then of course you get a real realization check kind of of of what you can't take this for granted. Tomorrow you can be have an injury for example that takes you out of sport and things can happen. So no we should be in the moment and and be grateful for what we have and I was I know I'm I've been to many Olympics I I don't know how many more I will attend. And I was reminding myself um this last Olympic that you know this is I'm so privileged to work with these people and these coaches you know who really put everything online to to help these athletes perform. So there's so many people here in this kind of support system that also put a lot of effort into to creating these performances. If you look at the the most important values amongst the the people you work with, what do you think? What are the finest values you see?

Anak Pensor: Um caring for each other.

Anak Pensor: And and I see it so much in um the two winter sports I've been have the honor to follow now is is free ski and and and snowboard. And then you see it across cultures as well. So when somebody is landing a difficult trick uh maybe something nobody has done before the whole community share chairs different countries just chairs this person who has done this trick and I've never seen that in any other sports uh that maybe in orienteering which I'm also following where people really are happy about people who who succeed regardless from which country you are from. So to see that kind of that the people care for each other it's I think a huge thing then they share um they help each other they coach each other and of course that's very powerful when you have a lot of expertise together and they share that's magic happens

Nicola Tangan: How do you bring that into a company or into a business that attitude?

Anak Pensor: Yeah, I think you need to have a quite a secure environment you need to to to feel that uh you know you we all heard about this a psych psychological safety kind of environment And I think that's actually a key that I know that even though I say come with this kind of maybe critique or issue um it doesn't come back to me and you don't don't stab me in my back and I don't lose my place on the team. Um it's it's a community where you actually can can share also things that are not functioning that well. So that's you need to create that um kind of an environment within the group and if it's not there that you need to start there I think.

Nicola Tangan: And how do you create it? Um you need to have a coach, a leader that is actually wants to do this and is not afraid of having athletes uh coming with their opinions. And I think that's where we maybe in Norway are more open to having athletes who have an opinion. Um we want them to to take ownership and and and be part of the development of the sport. Um if you have coaches coming from different cultures coming to Norway, they maybe find that a bit difficult that you have kind of outspoken um athletes who want to have their saying in in decisions. Um so that's uh had to be taught and and had to be cultured in many ways that this is what that the kind of we we are uh secure enough to have that kind of environment. So then you have to have coaches who have a lot of skills also because they are more secure instead of thinking that they have they have to know it all.

Nicola Tangan: What's the key to create good teams?

Anak Pensor: We know that the the coach or that the leader is important. He sets kind of the tone. Um I think it's also have to be uh part of different kind of personality styles within a team. Um um you need to have a few rules that you need to to attend uh attend to and then follow up because otherwise it will everybody's just doing their own business.

Nicola Tangan: Rules such as what are the important rules?

Anak Pensor: Could be such as that we don't have um the phone when we have a meal we eat together uh sometimes and when if we share an apartment we need to have some try to have it a bit tidy. Uh we we make dinner together. Um quite uh ordinary simple rules, not too many, but enough to show respect for each other that we we kind of um we're not just alone in here. And this can take time. I I can tell.

Nicola Tangan: But how do you build a team uh consisting of people who actually compete against each other?

Anak Pensor: Yeah, that's that's a bit different because it's uh and we have learned a lot actually from the out.

Nicola Tangan: So like the downhill like the downhill Yes. team, right? They compete each other. They try to beat the out of each other when they compete. But at the same time the trade together and so on.

Anak Pensor: Yeah. My my one of my colleagues from a different country said that would never happen in my country. They said and and I I but again you you what they have said and which I I think most of us try to to replicate is that they say that uh yes we um we are competitors of course but we also know that if we as a team evolve and and are successful it helps all of us to be more successful. So they kind of uh so and if I don't win, I want you to win, not someone from Sweden or Denmark or somewhere else. So we kind of try to stick to that.

Nicola Tangan: Are we sure that a more aggressive approach wouldn't have given us more medals, you know, starting earlier, get you into a sport, put everybody with big hands into swimming, you know, put all the tall people into basketball, you know, just like totally go for it.

Anak Pensor: I'm sure we would have some who had would succeed in that model as well, but we've had lost so many others which would have been such a shame. So I think it's a gamble to do that. Of course, if you have a huge amount to pick from.

Nicola Tangan: Yeah.

Anak Pensor: It might be successful but I still would say that you maybe you would lose the biggest talents that way because you wouldn't be able to spot them at that time. We we know so much about those who succeed that a lot of them have succeeded quite late 15 16 and they would have not been part of that kind of selection that you you are mentioning there. So I think we just would have lost so many and it wouldn't have I don't think it would have been that much fun and uh the key thing we have to do with the young athletes is to keep them motivated and and keep them in sport. So and then when they are kind of 15 16 17 we will know who really wants to put in that effort and the rest of them would have had a joyful ride and they would be good friends with those who become the stars. So I think there's a lot so much to gain and also the physical aspect which I think we we see more and more there's a lot of injuries in sport and maybe it's also due to that they're not so well prepared now as they were just 10 years ago because then they were a lot more out in the street playing climbing trees falling down building this kind of ability to to to to handle all the the training they have to do later on. So there there's so many reasons why being a bit more patient is a success criteria.

Nicola Tangan: So Anabat I'm now making you the head of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund.

Anak Pensor: Nice.

Nicola Tangan: And what would you do with this organization? Just how would you think about so you inherit now a team of professionals just what what are the kind of things you would think about to develop an organization?

Anak Pensor: I think I would have done exactly what you did you hired a sports performance consultant like in sports psychology so I think that was that is a key to of course that's my bias but I think it's important that we we also focus on that part of of of um uh the development but otherwise I would have had to hire a lot of really skilled people because I wouldn't have a clue of how to to work with that kind of

Nicola Tangan: But in terms of building the team and building the mentality what what would be the important things how would you?

Anak Pensor: A lot of communication, openness, welcoming new ideas. New people have new ideas and we need to listen to them and and also to try to create create a happy environment because it's it's much more fun to work with uh work when you feel safe and and and and not safe like doesn't have to do anything but safe in the way that you have my back if something goes wrong. Um the ability to be able to also make mistakes. Um you learn a lot from them if you are willing to kind of share them.

Anak Pensor: So try to create that kind of climate is I think would be a key thing. So I would I would lean on the kind of research we have in those kind of environments and and try to build that um uh one part at a time.

Nicola Tangan: There seems to be sometimes a bit of a misunderstanding with what psychological safety is in that people also think it means job security even if you're a total loser which is not what it is.

Anak Pensor: No.

Nicola Tangan: So what is so what is it?

Anak Pensor: No it is it's that I feel secure enough to to say that when I disagree with something I'm actually I feel I can say that without you punishing me. One week later and take taking me out of that team and and and and preventing me from doing my job. So it's it's it's a delicate question. It's difficult of course as a leader. Nobody really like to be criticized or or that the kind of the approach you have chosen is wrong. So you also need maybe to to create a culture where where you share that disagreement in a in a okay manner so that you kind of manage to keep the the communication going because if the communication stops flowing problems will start to arise really quickly. So you that's that's you can never take that for granted. A good culture can uh die in a second if the trust is not there anymore. And so it's it's it's a huge challenge to work on that. It's never done. You have to work on it. Keep working on it and and um being open for change all the time.

Nicola Tangan: Lastly, what is your advice to young people? Not only in sports but generally speaking, how should you think about your life?

Anak Pensor: Well, I think a key thing is to find something you really find is joyful to to where you can laugh, where you can have a lot of fun, where you have good friends, where you feel that you can you're welcome. Every child and youth should be part of an environment like that. Whatever it is, it could be in the performing arts, it could be in in in in sports, whatever. But being part of a a community that kind of cares for you is so valuable and it's I think can help help you through all the kind of challenges you will meet in life and especially as a young um person um you should have good friends around you. So that's um and being if if I should pick a sport, I would look for the one where the climate is good and you have a nice coach and and uh there's a lot of laughter on the on the training or a lot of.

Anak Pensor: Content people or that's uh I think that's so important because without motivation um you will uh never perform anything. So you need that, you need to culture that and take care of that.

Nicola Tangan: And I assume that translates into studies and work choices as well.

Anak Pensor: Yeah, I have a lot of athletes who ask for career advice and they say, well, my only advice, pick something you really love doing. If you like this book or read on this topic, maybe that's a kind of a path you should follow. It's um I I honestly feel that I haven't worked in my entire life because I have just done what I really are eager to do. So that's my only advice I can give. Not be too strate strategical and and and sensible, but just go for it. And um probably a bad advice, but it's my advice anyway because

Nicola Tangan: I think it's I think it's a very good advice. You clearly followed it yourself and it's had great results. Big thank you.

Anak Pensor: Thank you very much.